[Article] Irish Govt pushing through 'illegal downloads' changes to copyright law

expectationlost

In its final days, the Government is believed to be rushing through a statutory instrument that will amend the existing Copyright Act and which will give judges the power to grant injunctions against ISPs in relation to copyright infringement cases.
The move is believed to stem from October’s court case between the music industry (Warner, Sony, Universal and EMI) and UPC in which the judge pointed to a key gap in Irish copyright laws.
Siliconrepublic.com has learned that the Department of Enterprise Trade and Innovation and the Department of Communications have tabled the legislation which is currently in the hands of the parliamentary draftsman with a view to passing it by Friday.
The legislation is expected to be sanctioned by the present Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Innovation Mary Hanafin TD before Friday.A statutory instrument is secondary legislation – only the Oireachtas can pass primary legislation – and as such is the only way changes can be made to legislation in such a tight timeframe.
Sources in the digital media industry say the nature in which the legislation is being pushed through could be damaging for Ireland’s image in the eyes of the major internet giants that have located operations here.
They warn that if the statutory instrument proceeds it could have “major implications for the freedom of the internet in Ireland.” It could also result in ISPs being ordered to implement three strikes and filtering systems.

http://www.siliconrepublic.com/comms/item/20561-irish-govt-pushing-through

Thor

Hmmm, I wonder how this works.

How can they prove a person was downloading illegally without the 'Software' already installed so people can be monitored. Seeing as it say's the judge and give an injunction against ISP's in copyright case's, NOt sure how they can prove it before hand.

Really don't see how this still stop people from downloading illegally, Record labels(Companies) Really need a good slap in the fact when it comes to actual intelligence.

Nody

Thor wrote: »

Hmmm, I wonder how this works.

How can they prove a person was downloading illegally without the 'Software' already installed so people can be monitored. Seeing as it say's the judge and give an injunction against ISP's in copyright case's, NOt sure how they can prove it before hand.

DC hub or similar with sharing/stealing/hacking in to a account or hook in on a torrent and capture IP addresses.

Thor

Nody wrote: »

DC hub or similar with sharing/stealing/hacking in to a account or hook in on a torrent and capture IP addresses.

Maybe, not sure about the torrents though. You can disable sharing and just download the song, then at that point they will need to proof you didnt already buy the song and are just downloading it to have it has mp3. While is still illegal to share the music

PogMoThoin

Thor wrote: »

Maybe, not sure about the torrents though. You can disable sharing and just download the song, then at that point they will need to proof you didnt already buy the song and are just downloading it to have it has mp3. While is still illegal to share the music

Once You join the torrent your public ip is visible. They join the torrent, they have permission from the rights olders, they then jot down the ip addresses of all in the swarm

Thor

PogMoThoin wrote: »

Once You join the torrent your public ip is visible. They join the torrent, they have permission from the rights olders, they then jot down the ip addresses of all in the swarm

That still doesn't proof that they were downloading it illegaling as if you bought the cd or bought the album online or otherwise then you are allowed to Dowload it anywhere you want as you have the right to do so.

Either way this is never going to have the affect they think it will.

AlmightyCushion

Thor wrote: »

That still doesn't proof that they were downloading it illegaling as if you bought the cd or bought the album online or otherwise then you are allowed to Dowload it anywhere you want as you have the right to do so.

No you don't at least not in this country.

user1842

PogMoThoin wrote: »

Once You join the torrent your public ip is visible. They join the torrent, they have permission from the rights olders, they then jot down the ip addresses of all in the swarm

But to do this they would have to join the torrent too. Therefore they are file-sharing content, thus breaking the law themselves. Evidence cannot be gained by committing a crime.

Thor

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

No you don't at least not in this country.

Really I taught we did.

Still for the the irish government to sacrifice privacy in the hope to stop piracy is shameful at best.

AlmightyCushion

Thor wrote: »

Really I taught we did.

Still for the the irish government to sacrifice privacy in the hope to stop piracy is shameful at best.

In a lot of countries copy an mp3 from a cd to a pc/mp3 player etc. is still copyright infringement.

Xzen

dmclean1842 wrote: »

But to do this they would have to join the torrent too. Therefore they are file-sharing content, thus breaking the law themselves. Evidence cannot be gained by committing a crime.

True, however they are (at least most investigations companys are) doing so with the permission of the rights holder. Therefore no case can be taken against them. Also certain investigation companies seed a fake file in order to catch people out.

One way of avoiding the legality of torrents, at least for music is use one of the many free and legal sources for music, e.g. grooveshark, Pandora (in the US or anywhere with VPN) and spotify etc.

user1842

Xzen wrote: »

Also certain investigation companies seed a fake file in order to catch people out.

Is that not entrapment? No court would look at that as evidence?

jill_valentine

I'm impressed that they've managed to catch on to something only a year or two after it's started to become completely obsolete. Filesharing now is moving towards dropbox style P2P uploads and downloads.

FoxT

I can see sites like TOR becoming a growth industry...

user1842

Its should not be up to the record companies to police this. They are not enforcers of the law.

If they think someone is stealing their property then they need to provide evidence to the police and let the police investigate.

Then the police can talk to the ISP's not the record company.

jor el

Thor wrote: »

That still doesn't proof that they were downloading it illegaling as if you bought the cd or bought the album online or otherwise then you are allowed to Dowload it anywhere you want as you have the right to do so.

You might have the right to download a copy of something you already own, but you certainly don't have to right to upload it to others, which is clear breech of copyright law, and something you'd be doing if using a P2P network.

dmclean1842 wrote: »

But to do this they would have to join the torrent too. Therefore they are file-sharing content, thus breaking the law themselves. Evidence cannot be gained by committing a crime.

They have the permission of the copyright holders to do what they're doing, so no crime is being committed, unless of course they're doing something very sneaky and underhanded, in which case a crime may be being committed. If it's simply a case of joining the swarm and farming the IP addresses of those in it, then it's not a crime when they have permission to share the files. Also, what you're talking about is Entrapment, and it doesn't apply in Ireland as we have no such law. Even then, it only applies to law enforcement agents, which would not be involved in copyright infringement monitoring anyway.

Whether this "evidence" would actually stand up in court, or could even be introduced in court, is an unknown, as no one has ever fought such a case in Ireland, AFAIK. Proxys, VPNs, etc can be used to hide what you're doing and your IP, and these render most of what the music industry is doing, and what this legislation is attempting to do, useless.

PogMoThoin

dmclean1842 wrote: »

But to do this they would have to join the torrent too. Therefore they are file-sharing content, thus breaking the law themselves. Evidence cannot be gained by committing a crime.

They own the rights to the material, therefore they're not doing anything wrong

user1842

PogMoThoin wrote: »

They own the rights to the material, therefore they're not doing anything wrong

This is a interesting one. If file sharing is illegal for copyright content then is anyone who file shares this content breaking the law even if they own the rights to the content?

There would have to be an explicit exception in law for the copyright holders.

Very interesting to see how the law is worded here?

RangeR

dmclean1842 wrote: »

This is a interesting one. If file sharing is illegal for copyright content then is anyone who file shares this content breaking the law even if they own the rights to the content?

There would have to be an explicit exception in law for the copyright holders.

Very interesting to see how the law is worded here?

Please don't be silly. File sharing is not illegal. Distributing copyright information without permission is [and I use this term loosely] illegal.

There are many, many, many uses for legal file sharing.

user1842

RangeR wrote: »

Please don't be silly. File sharing is not illegal. Distributing copyright information without permission is [and I use this term loosely] illegal.

There are many, many, many uses for legal file sharing.

"file sharing for copyright content" is what I said I do believe not file sharing in general.

kaahooters

afaik if youy buy a legitimate hard copy of something (cd, dvd, ect ect ect.) your only permitted to create a backup hard copy.

if you buy a song on itunes or any other eretailer and its a software copy, you dont own the copy, you own a licence to that item, so your not entitled to make a backup.

so, pretty much if you own a cd, and download a copy, your breaking the copyright, likewise if you purchase a song of itunes you dont own it, you own a licence to listen to it and not copy it.

prioryc

i don't think a government that is not really in power anymore should be allowed pass any legislation at all... Especially when it has other implications ....

" Sources in the digital media industry say the nature in which the legislation is being pushed through could be damaging for Ireland’s image in the eyes of the major internet giants that have located operations here.

They warn that if the statutory instrument proceeds it could have “major implications for the freedom of the internet in Ireland.” It could also result in ISPs being ordered to implement three strikes and filtering systems.

The legislation is being swept through in the middle of election week when politicians are busy canvassing."


(for the record i buy my tracks and buy my pc games too) I just have a feeling sneaky brown envelopes are changing hands on this one.

Thor

jor el wrote: »

You might have the right to download a copy of something you already own, but you certainly don't have to right to upload it to others, which is clear breech of copyright law, and something you'd be doing if using a P2P network.

Yeah, I could have sworn you were able to stop an upload of a file and just download it.

Not sure if thats still a possibility or even ever was for that matter, But if you could then they would have no case.

Although that would probably put an end to p2p by the sense of the meaning.

Varik

kaahooters wrote: »

afaik if youy buy a legitimate hard copy of something (cd, dvd, ect ect ect.) your only permitted to create a backup hard copy.

If there is anything to stop you copying the DVD for example then it's illegal as the security copyrighted content use is legally protected.

Mac daddy

Get yourselves a seedbox + a decent VPN connection = problem solved.

billyboy01

How many times over the last 5-10 years have we heard this type of guff before! Very expensive and time consuming, not to mention the legal cost and difficulties!

PogMoThoin

Mac daddy wrote: »

Get yourselves a seedbox + a decent VPN connection = problem solved.

Or move to Usenet, better quality, easier search, better speeds, no uploading and they never get removed

Xzen

PogMoThoin wrote: »

Or move to Usenet, better quality, easier search, better speeds, no uploading and they never get removed

Shh, they might be listening

slave1

you know I really should get up to speed on usenet but I've never been able to find an idiot's guide

TheDoc

slave1 wrote: »

you know I really should get up to speed on usenet but I've never been able to find an idiot's guide

Agreed hearing good things, was on rapidshare for 12 months and although it was brilliant I hear its gone a bit downhill.

Sites and services like the above were brilliant for getting your hands on very old games, roms and custom map packs etc

heebusjeebus

Lads,
Noob question maybe but how can the changes be made in law when there is no-one sitting in the Dail?
Who is driving the bus?

listermint

I have forwarded my views to maryhanafin@tcs.gov.ie
I suggest anyone who shares this do the same.

Dear Minister Hanafin


To say I am aghast at the cynical nature of the proposed amendments in relation to copyright directive (2001/29/EC), would be an understatement.

As an employee in the IT and Software sector I am fully aware of the potential of the Internet to be utilised in both subversive and the more beneficial manner in terms of openness.


Under current guidelines in the main, the sector is self regulating. Abusers of the technology are regulated by the providers and this allows to maintain the freedom which in essence is one of the cores to this communication medium.



I fear that in enacting such sweeping and powerful tools within the judiciary you are setting a dangerous precedence for this country and our image Internationally as a forward thinking Technology leader. A case in point of the power of freedom of expression (unhindered) it the current situation in the middle east, in no part owing to the benefit of social mediums such as Twitter and Facebook. Allowing for like minded free thinkers to share their views on the state of their nations in an open manner. We are in the midst of the first Social Media fuelled revolutions for democracy.



In enacting this legislation you are allowing for the dictate of an individual to decide what is allowed or disallowed within the confines of this medium. It is binding, it is the opposite of a forward thinking and open economy. In pursuing this line you are not following EU guidelines, furthermore you are pushing for direct oppostiont to that very open economy to which was one of the founding functions of this European Community.

In summation you will be the Minister remembered for pushing forward the small steps into Internet restriction, freedom is something that we western nations value.




Yours Cordially

..................

ArthurG

Yiz can all relax, unsurprisingly there seem to be no plans to sign in the legislation before tomorrow - and in retrospect, why on earth would they?? Surely it wasn't a stunt by (soon to be ex-) TD Ryan??.

http://www.politics.ie/justice/153846-hanafin-denies-media-claims-plans-rush-through-copyright-laws.html

Thor

ArthurG wrote: »

Yiz can all relax, unsurprisingly there seem to be no plans to sign in the legislation before tomorrow - and in retrospect, why on earth would they?? Surely it wasn't a stunt by (soon to be ex-) TD Ryan??.

http://www.politics.ie/justice/153846-hanafin-denies-media-claims-plans-rush-through-copyright-laws.html

Thank the lord.

God damn SiliconRepublic

listermint

Update to my Correspondence

Dear Listermint

Thank you for your e-mail. I am glad that you contacted me for clarification.

There is absolutely no truth in reports that I am about to introduce enforcement measures against internet service providers or their users and I have no intention of issuing a statutory instrument to this effect. I attach a recent Press Release confirming same.

listermint, please do not hesitate to contact me if you need assistance with any matter of concern to you.

Le gach dea ghuí,

Mary


The information in this email, and any attachments transmitted with it, are confidential and are for the intended recipient only. If you receive this message in error, please notify us via webmaster@tcs.gov.ie . This e-mail has been scanned by a virus scanner and appears to be clean.

Tá an t-eolas sa ríomhphost seo faoi rún, chomh maith le gach comhad atá ceangailte leis, agus i gcomhair úsáid an duine nó an chórais a bhfuil sé dírithe air amháin.
Má fhaigheann tú an ríomhphost seo trí bhotún, cuir scéal chugainn ag webmaster@tcs.gov.ie.Tá an ríomhphost seo arna sheiceáil ag scanóir víreas agus dealramh air go bhfuil sé glan.

Blowfish

Unfortunately she said elsewhere that it is up to the next minister to implement this, hence leaving the possiblity of it still happening.

Ironically this has all gone on the same day as Australia has gone the opposite way.

listermint

Blowfish wrote: »

Unfortunately she said elsewhere that it is up to the next minister to implement this, hence leaving the possiblity of it still happening.

Ironically this has all gone on the same day as Australia has gone the opposite way.

Ive also read up alot of the background info, It can be taken up entirely the wrong way. They dont appear to have made up their mind either way. I think what is being suggested that they wish to close the actual loop hole and not have the matter spurious. This could equally mean that they will follow the Australian format when it is addressed.

whore

i wonder what'll happen now with this, i wont mind too much if it doesnt extend to currently airing tv shows, that would be terrible, i'd have to buy a tv then :P i hope they just say they wont legislate it, that'd be nice

dob99

dmclean1842 wrote: »

But to do this they would have to join the torrent too. Therefore they are file-sharing content, thus breaking the law themselves. Evidence cannot be gained by committing a crime.

Not necessarily. The protocol would allow them to query the tracker for a list of people who are downloading and uploading the torrent without having to actually join the swarm. All they would need is the original torrent file (which I presume they could get from any number of sites).

watty

You can share files without breaking the laws.
Not all files are restricted copyright

Also you can legally "share" a "restricted copyright" file if you have the "rights" or permission from the "rights holder".

as dob99 says you don't have to even share files.

Sillycon Republic are only good for printing press releases.
Even Ryan didn't want to do this.

lucernarian

It's pretty cheeky for Eamonn Ryan to give his opinion on any possible policy having had little personal competence I feel. Some of his own communications policy advisers had little more than Business degrees sure! And working off the back of an "article" from Sillycon Republic wasn't the wisest idea. Storm in a teacup at this stage, but I'll be watching this space.

watty

Nothing to see I think... Except
http://www.rte.ie/news/election2011/results/index.html#sitting