over half on fingal housing list are foreign

Hill Bicks

Why was this thread shut down I feel this is an extremely important issue that deserves to be talked about. As long as insults and plain bigotry are not tolerated. Why cant we have a proper debate on what to me is a huge problem facing our country.

paul71

Hill Bicks wrote: »

Why was this thread shut down I feel this is an extremely important issue that deserves to be talked about. As long as insults and plain bigotry are not tolerated. Why cant we have a proper debate on what to me is a huge problem facing our country.

Ok then lets debate why there is a housing list at all?

Why should taxpayers pay for someone elses house?

Hill Bicks

I think It should be there to help those in society who need somewhere to live but are unable to work due to illness or disability and Mothers who have been left to raise children on their own.

sollar

It is a problem, i know people working in government departments who tell me new people are still arriving from eastern europe and apply for dole, medical cards and the rest. Even though it is clear to everyone this country has very little work.

Our welfare is quite generous and they can have a better life on benefits here than their home countries.

PCros

To look after our own, people who were born in this country and cannot afford a house for whatever reason that may be.

Not people who "claim asylum" and and have no intention of getting a job here.

Imagine yourself heading off to America and turning up at the social welfare demadning a house and child allowance.

You'd be laughed out of the building.

davidd24

PCros wrote: »

To look after our own, people who were born in this country and cannot afford a house for whatever reason that may be.

Not people who "claim asylum" and and have no intention of getting a job here.

Imagine yourself heading off to America and turning up at the social welfare demadning a house and child allowance.

You'd be laughed out of the building.

My exact sentiments in the other thread.
I agree with the OP.The Last thread made alot of good points.

paul71

sollar wrote: »

It is a problem, i know people working in government departments who tell me new people are still arriving from eastern europe and apply for dole, medical cards and the rest. Even though it is clear to everyone this country has very little work.

Our welfare is quite generous and they can have a better life on benefits here than their home countries.

Simply not true, it is not posible to arrive here and claim the dole. You must satisfy the habitual residence rule, either the people you spoke to made up this little story for you or you made it up yourself.

Hill Bicks

What is disturbing is that this is the first official evidence that although up to 100,000 people are expected to leave this country in the next 18 months due to the fact that we are experiencing our greatest economic disaster since Independence the housing list in the once fastest growing area in the country has a majority of non-nationals on it, non nationals who we were led to believe would leave if the country went belly up.
Well go into your local shop, school, hospital or college in Fingal they are bursting at the seems so who is leaving?
Are migrants still arriving to a bankrupt country? I would like to know but the CSO will not release official migration figures this is the first official evidence that the hearsay is not all BS and i am very worried about it.
Will people who receive free housing in a foreign country come to expect free everything while they live here?

PCros

The habitual residence rule is a joke, fill it out and say you were here a year and they are happy.

It is a pity that the main thread was closed just because a moderator couldnt argue properly and closed it before responses were made to his questions. Sad.

Nody

PCros wrote: »

To look after our own, people who were born in this country and cannot afford a house for whatever reason that may be.

Sorry but I've got no interest or drive to provide housing for people who see it as their job to get children and live on the wellfare payments for the rest of their lives. I could not give a flying cow turd from which country they are from originally as they are still a leech no matter their nationality.

Not people who "claim asylum" and and have no intention of getting a job here.

You are aware that those two are two different things right? You can't even try to get a job if you're an asylum seeker were as if you come over from lets say Poland you're eligble to start working from day 1.

Imagine yourself heading off to America and turning up at the social welfare demadning a house and child allowance.

You'd be laughed out of the building.

And you would be here as well as you would not qualify for either on the day you landed but don't let minor things as facts stop you.

paul71

PCros wrote: »

The habitual residence rule is a joke, fill it out and say you were here a year and they are happy.

It is a pity that the main thread was closed just because a moderator couldnt argue properly and closed it before responses were made to his questions. Sad.

The habitual residence rule is applied and varified by documentary evidence in every instance, I am aware of Irish people returning who have been unable to satisfy it.

Hill Bicks

Im hoping the "Durka Durka" shouters on one side and the Bigots on the other stay out of the debate so the rest of us can freely question what is really happening on the ground. And that someone in the new Government has the balls to address the issue.

PCros

Nody wrote: »

Sorry but I've got no interest or drive to provide housing for people who see it as their job to get children and live on the wellfare payments for the rest of their lives.

Thats fine but you cant tar everyone with the same brush. Some people are wasters but the majority just dont have the funds to purchase houses on their own.

Do you want them to live with their parents for the rest of their lives?

Nody

PCros wrote: »

Thats fine but you cant tar everyone with the same brush. Some people are wasters but the majority just dont have the funds to purchase houses on their own.

Do you want them to live with their parents for the rest of their lives?

They can live with their parents or rent but I sure as heck do not wish to fund their attempt to buy a house in any way, shape or form. The reason is simple, if they can't afford it with out help they should not buy it (government and owning property is not a good mix, that includes rent money...), I know it is a novel concept...

I'd also add in legislation to require that houses can only be used to secure loans up to lets say 80% of value or similar as well to reduce (not avoid) the next bubble.

snubbleste

Hill Bicks wrote: »

What is disturbing is that this is the first official evidence that although up to 100,000 people are expected to leave this country in the next 18 months due to the fact that we are experiencing our greatest economic disaster since Independence the housing list in the once fastest growing area in the country has a majority of non-nationals on it, non nationals who we were led to believe would leave if the country went belly up.

It's not the first official evidence.
69,039 foreign nationals were issued PPS numbers in 2010
79,986 in 2009
156,151 in 2008.
Figures on PPS numbers provide an indication of inward migration, although they do not show how many people have left the State since registering.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0111/1224287237364.html
http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Topics/PPSN/Pages/ppsn_all_month10.aspx

Saadyst

PCros wrote: »

Thats fine but you cant tar everyone with the same brush.

PCros wrote: »

To look after our own, people who were born in this country and cannot afford a house for whatever reason that may be.

Not people who "claim asylum" and and have no intention of getting a job here.

Oh the hilarity.

PCros wrote: »

Some people are wasters but the majority just dont have the funds to purchase houses on their own.

Do you want them to live with their parents for the rest of their lives?

To begin with, what the heck has that to do with the taxpayer? I don't believe anyone should be buying houses when they don't have their own means to purchase it!

Tefral

Help me understand something with regard to this.

Im aware you cant get state benefits unless you satisfy certain rules etc one main one being the Residency rule.

So, for "Foreign" people to get a house and state benefits, they must in someway have lived here, and you cant live in a house without benefits unless you have worked, ergo they must have provided income to the state in the form of tax?

Are they then not entitled when they are down on their luck like Irish people are to the same benefits?

I hear alot of stories about free prams etc etc, but I dont believe its as easy as showing up with your hand out surely?

Saadyst

cronin_j wrote: »

Help me understand something with regard to this.

Im aware you cant get state benefits unless you satisfy certain rules etc one main one being the Residency rule.

So, for "Foreign" people to get a house and state benefits, they must in someway have lived here, and you cant live in a house without benefits unless you have worked, ergo they must have provided income to the state in the form of tax?

Are they then not entitled when they are down on their luck like Irish people are to the same benefits?

I hear alot of stories about free prams etc etc, but I dont believe its as easy as showing up with your hand out surely?

You are correct. The habitual residency requirement is something like at least 2 years continuous residency in the UK / Ireland (special agreement), otherwise you're not getting any JSB / JSA.

Tefral

Saadyst wrote: »

You are correct. The habitual residency requirement is something like at least 2 years continuous residency in the UK / Ireland (special agreement), otherwise you're not getting any JSB / JSA.

So what then is the problem with half the people on the list being foreigners? The other Half are Irish?

snubbleste

cronin_j wrote: »

So what then is the problem with half the people on the list being foreigners? The other Half are Irish?

I'd say the issue is that a nation should look after its own citizens first.

paul71

cronin_j wrote: »

So what then is the problem with half the people on the list being foreigners? The other Half are Irish?

The problem is that the welfare dependant portion of Irish society now see other hands in their decreasing pot, and are crying foul. This is in spite of the fact that this other set of hands (mostly eastern european) probably contributed more to Irish society in the form of Tax paid in the last 10 years then 3 generations of Irish welfare dependants.

studdlymurphy

PCros wrote: »

Thats fine but you cant tar everyone with the same brush. Some people are wasters but the majority just dont have the funds to purchase houses on their own.

Do you want them to live with their parents for the rest of their lives?

Why cant they live with their parents I did until I could afford to move out. If their parents should have to support them why should I/we?

Saadyst

snubbleste wrote: »

I'd say the issue is that a nation should look after its own citizens first.

So as a UK national... say if I was working here for 20 years paying all the taxes required... but never applied for citizenship.. and I happen to lose my job or fall on hard times - I'm shít out of luck?

Well good luck attracting any decent number of skilled workers in that case.

paul71

snubbleste wrote: »

I'd say the issue is that a nation should look after its own citizens first.

I'd say we look after the people who paid tax to the nation first.

PCros

Saadyst wrote: »

So as a UK national... say if I was working here for 20 years paying all the taxes required... but never applied for citizenship.. and I happen to lose my job or fall on hard times - I'm shít out of luck?

Well good luck attracting any decent number of skilled workers in that case.

Well that would be your own lookout for not applying for citizenship knowing you had a job and had no plans of moving back.

Saadyst

PCros wrote: »

Well that would be your own lookout for not applying for citizenship knowing you had a job and had no plans of moving back.

So if Google, Microsoft, Intel and whoever else decide to ever relocate any staff from their other operations in Europe, they have to ensure that they apply for citizenship as a criteria? Or if they are simply hiring in the EU zone, this is listed as a criteria?

Do you realise how crazy that is? Making people pledge allegiance to another country so they can benefit from the same rights granted to every other taxpayer? You are basically saying the career welfare spongers should have more benefits and rights than any foreign national; regardless of contribution.

I suppose you're anti-EU?


Edit: What about the tens of thousands of Irish working in the UK - would you have them pledge allegiance to the crown before they could avail of the same benefits?

Nody

PCros wrote: »

Well that would be your own lookout for not applying for citizenship knowing you had a job and had no plans of moving back.

But someone who only was born in Ireland and has done nothing but lift social wellfare etc. should recieve it instead of the person who's worked, and paid taxes. Well that is great that we got that clear; I know which system I prefer to support...

PCros

Nody wrote: »

They can live with their parents or rent but I sure as heck do not wish to fund their attempt to buy a house in any way, shape or form.

The issue is not "we're paying for it", that cant be changed now at this stage, tough luck you have to pay for it like everyone else.

The issue is how can people who never payed tax/or payed very little as apposed to somebody paying it for years be allowed onto the list.

At least there should be some sort of priorty then, the more you gave the state to better and faster you should be looked after.

PCros

Nody wrote: »

But someone who only was born in Ireland and has done nothing but lift social wellfare etc. should recieve it instead of the person who's worked, and paid taxes. Well that is great that we got that clear; I know which system I prefer to support...

Sorry where in that did I say I supported scroungers?

PCros

Saadyst wrote: »

What about the tens of thousands of Irish working in the UK - would you have them pledge allegiance to the crown before they could avail of the same benefits?

Alot have already, if they plan to work and live there for life then why not?

Saadyst

PCros wrote: »

Alot have already, if they plan to work and live there for life then why not?

The notion that you have of required citizenship is so unworkable and ultimately pointless that it seems to me to be futile in discussing it.

Regardless the facts are: you cannot claim benefits in this country without having satisfied a number of rules, the primary one being the habitual residency rule.

Ergo, it'll be an expensive two years living in Ireland without any state assistance and "without working", before you can get on any welfare. Thus, I'm inclined to believe the "reporting" is just more populist bullshít, that detracts from the actual real problems in this country.

Dannyboy83

PCros wrote: »

The habitual residence rule is a joke, fill it out and say you were here a year and they are happy.

That's simply not true.

I know people who the Habitual residence has been used unfairly against (i.e. they satisfied the criteria but were told to F off), it's a great tool for discriminating against non-Irish.

yrwhu8jxtni06a

isnt the rule if your outside the country for two years you cant get anything,so is it possible,if one person is drawing,invites his friend over for two years,then he can do it then?..

paul71

Linda Lemon Cornea wrote: »

isnt the rule if your outside the country for two years you cant get anything,so is it possible,if one person is drawing,invites his friend over for two years,then he can do it then?..

I am not sure, it might be posible if those 2 people could live on 1 social welfare payment for 2 years.

If that was posible then it would be great as it would provide a compeling arguement that our social welfare is too high and the dole should be cut by 50% to €94 per week from €188 and save the country a fortune.

yrwhu8jxtni06a

paul71 wrote: »

I am not sure, it might be posible if those 2 people could live on 1 social welfare payment for 2 years.

If that was posible then it would be great as it would provide a compeling arguement that our social welfare is too high and the dole should be cut by 50% to €94 per week from €188 and save the country a fortune.

Alot of them do live in one house tbh,the system itself at fault to be able to be fully exploited.

studdlymurphy

Very surprising?

paul71

studdlymurphy wrote: »

Very surprising?

Not surprising at all, most of those countries above us have sliding scale payments where your entitlement is reduced after certain periods of time. We have a system which allows a lifetime of social welfare dependancy.

paul71

Linda Lemon Cornea wrote: »

Alot of them do live in one house tbh,the system itself at fault to be able to be fully exploited.

Grand, so let Irish nationals live in the same house.

conorhal

Nody wrote: »

But someone who only was born in Ireland and has done nothing but lift social wellfare etc. should recieve it instead of the person who's worked, and paid taxes. Well that is great that we got that clear; I know which system I prefer to support...

That assumes they've paid tax.
If a person comes here and works as a cleaner for two years, lives’ in cheap rented accommodation with a bunch of other people and then signs on or puts their name on the housing list, chances are they haven't paid any tax as they would be outside the tax net.
The problem with importing cheap labor that ends up on welfare is that the cost benefit only goes to minimum wage employers, when you do a cost benefit analysis for the state and look at the cost of providing social housing, educating their children, child benefit etc, the cost far outweighs the benefit and we end up just subsidizing minimum wage employers.

paul71

conorhal wrote: »

That assumes they've paid tax.
If a person comes here and works as a cleaner for two years, lives’ in cheap rented accommodation with a bunch of other people and then signs on or puts their name on the housing list, chances are they haven't paid any tax as they would be outside the tax net.
The problem with importing cheap labor that ends up on welfare is that the cost benefit only goes to minimum wage employers, when you do a cost benefit analysis for the state and look at the cost of providing social housing, educating their children, child benefit etc, the cost far outweighs the benefit and we end up just subsidizing minimum wage employers.

Which is exactly the same as the situation for minimum wage Irish nationals, this point does nothing to further the arguement against social welfare to non nationals, it just adds to the arguement against social welfare.

conorhal

paul71 wrote: »

Which is exactly the same as the situation for minimum wage Irish nationals, this point does nothing to further the arguement against social welfare to non nationals, it just adds to the arguement against social welfare.

It is exactly the same situation, my point being, we don't need to import welfare dependents we have enough of our own.

PCros

studdlymurphy wrote: »

Very surprising?

That table is based on your initial payment from welfare, not to mention most of the countries reduce it and/or cut it off after a certain amount of time.

Also 4 years out of date.

paul71

conorhal wrote: »

It is exactly the same situation, my point being, we don't need to import welfare dependents we have enough of our own.

We did not import welfare dependants we imported workers. They came here, worked, and paid tax, in accordance with Irish and European law. Therefore they are entitled to the same benefits we are as they paid for it in the same way. The only welfare dependants in Ireland who did not contribute in Tax to the society are the seriously long term unemployed who did not work during the boom years.

To be frank the non nationals here who paid tax have a better moral claim on the Irish welfare system then our own multi-generational welfare dependants, especially given the fact that the governments of Eastern Europe are now paying for Irish social welfare.

Hill Bicks

paul71 wrote: »

We did not import welfare dependants we imported workers. They came here, worked, and paid tax, in accordance with Irish and European law. Therefore they are entitled to the same benefits we are as they paid for it in the same way. The only welfare dependants in Ireland who did not contribute in Tax to the society are the seriously long term unemployed who did not work during the boom years.

To be frank the non nationals here who paid tax have a better moral claim on the Irish welfare system then our own multi-generational welfare dependants, especially given the fact that the governments of Eastern Europe are now paying for Irish social welfare.

Over 2000 on the list are non-Eu why are they here? Have they worked and paid taxes? If so on what grounds were they able to work here then go on social housing lists?

paul71

Hill Bicks wrote: »

Over 2000 on the list are non-Eu why are they here? Have they worked and paid taxes? If so on what grounds were they able to work here then go on social housing lists?

Good at least we are distinguising between EU and non EU.

With regard to non-EU, I assume (but am open to correction) that they must have sucessfully gone through the asylum procedure, or have some other legal right to live here before they can go on a housing list.

If that is the case then it means they have also had the opertunity to work here, so we are once again back to the point of why supplement the housing requirements of people who have the opertunity to work at the expense of people who do work.

AlekSmart

Hill Bicks wrote: »

What is disturbing is that this is the first official evidence that although up to 100,000 people are expected to leave this country in the next 18 months due to the fact that we are experiencing our greatest economic disaster since Independence the housing list in the once fastest growing area in the country has a majority of non-nationals on it, non nationals who we were led to believe would leave if the country went belly up.
Well go into your local shop, school, hospital or college in Fingal they are bursting at the seems so who is leaving?
Are migrants still arriving to a bankrupt country? I would like to know but the CSO will not release official migration figures this is the first official evidence that the hearsay is not all BS and i am very worried about it.
Will people who receive free housing in a foreign country come to expect free everything while they live here?

http://www.kierandennison.com/2011/02/over-half-on-fingal-housing-list-are.html

The figgers,as unearthed by this Councillor Dennison lad are bald enough.

Total on List 8,144,Increase of 22% on 2009.
Lone Parent Applications 3,480,Increase of 28% on 2009.
Non-National Applications 4,108,of which 2,362 are Non-EU.

No matter what dressing up or glossing over operations are applied to these stats,they appear to raise some scary issues as to who or what is going to fund the housing needs of the 8,144 Fingallians.

The other issue Bill Hicks raises is the CSO`s methodology and policy on the "Official" Migration stat`s....why would any Government Agency refuse to release them..unless there`s something hooky involved ????

crossmolinalad

PCros wrote: »

The habitual residence rule is a joke, fill it out and say you were here a year and they are happy.
.

Isnt true You need to be here for 5 or more years and u need to prove that
Rentbook on your name/pps number 5 years or older
utility bills on your name For 5 years with no breaks in it or
Tax papers and more like that

not yet

Just like to pose a question and get some response.....

Bought an apartment 5 years ago, 75k in neg eq. when I moved in 72 of 72 apartments were owner occupied, 6 years later got info from last residents meetiing 53 are rent via HSE, now I'm well aware people have ti live somewhere etc etc but it fcuking wrecks my head to be paying a monster mortgage when so many non nationls live free of charge next door.....

not yet

not yet wrote: »

Just like to pose a question and get some response.....

Bought an apartment 5 years ago, 75k in neg eq. when I moved in 72 of 72 apartments were owner occupied, 6 years later got info from last residents meetiing 53 are rent via HSE, now I'm well aware people have ti live somewhere etc etc but it fcuking wrecks my head to be paying a monster mortgage when so many non nationls live free of charge next door.....

No takers......Ah the aul ''sush dont get involved in that arguement''

jim69

i worked in a school in ongar,the few white kids were eastern europeans,the remaining 97% were african.none of them have paid tax here if little at most,before racism crap starts why are we paying for these people,country cant support its own people,get rid of them,shut the gates

yrwhu8jxtni06a

not yet wrote: »

Just like to pose a question and get some response.....

Bought an apartment 5 years ago, 75k in neg eq. when I moved in 72 of 72 apartments were owner occupied, 6 years later got info from last residents meetiing 53 are rent via HSE, now I'm well aware people have ti live somewhere etc etc but it fcuking wrecks my head to be paying a monster mortgage when so many non nationls live free of charge next door.....

System itself,the same would probably apply to the career dolers im afraid.