Defacing my property? Not providing a service? :(

AMPSound

I was clamped by NCPS today - it was a slight misunderstanding on my part, so yes, I do admit that I was in the wrong and the clamp was deserved. But that's not the issue.

I rang NCPS's 0818 number, and paid the €120 release fee by card. When I got back to the van, I saw these:



They had removed the clamp, but had left the stickers.

Before I continue, I will say that I am just being a pedantic dick about this - but just humour me for a sec... I was having a really bad day (clamping being the least of my worries) and this was a way of venting my anger!!!

So I rang NCPS again and told them that although I had paid the release fee, they had not released my vehicle. Yes, they had taken the clamp off, but it would have been unsafe (and probably illegal) for me to drive with the stickers on my window for lack of visibility reasons.

Yes, I could have peeled the stickers off myself, but one of the stickers stated that:

"Any interference or damage to the wheel clamp or NCPS company property could render you liable to an additional charge of €500 and possibly criminal damage charges".

The sticker was not mine. The sticker is "NCPS company property". I certainly could not damage that!!! :P

The clamper came out 20 minutes later and pulled up beside me. Quite ignorantly, he rolled down the window and said "You are unbelievable". Granted, I was being an ass by calling him back to peel a sticker off, but I wanted to prove a point. He stuck his hand out his window and ripped off the two stickers. I was left with this:



I asked him to remove all the sticker and he told me he did not have the tools to do so. He said he would come back tomorrow with the tools and do it! Then he drove off.

Unsatisfied that my window was left the way they found it, I rang NCPS back. After 10 minutes on the phone, I was told that management would ring me in the morning. Cool.

So my issues are:

1. I paid them for a service (the service of releasing my vehicle) and this service was not delivered.
2. They defaced my personal property by leaving sticker residue on my window.
3. They caused me to be late for my "very important appointment" because I could not drive my vehicle after their sloppy release.

As I said earlier, I am just picking a fight and being an ass! But, I can't help but notice that a few consumer laws are definitely being broken there! So really, all I want to know is how much I can take the piss out of this? At what point will I have gone too far (if not already)? Or do you think I should keep messing with their heads and get a refund on the sloppy service they provided!!! At the end of the day, €120 is better in my pocket than theirs!!

Quiet you

That has cheered me right up. At least I know now that I'm not the only one that picks fights for entertainment on a bad day.

I'd go as far as I could with it, to be honest. Look into exactly what laws are being broken. Tell them it was sloppy service, and you want a refund. What do you have to lose?

AMPSound

Deleted User wrote: »

What do you have to lose?

Other than a million quid a minute for their 0818 number, nothing!!!!

It started out as a "let's take my bad day out on NCPS" kinda thing, but then I realised that I actually may have a case!

Wolfe Tone

Ahhahaha that made me smile, what happened OP? They come back?

AMPSound

Shock - no phone call from management today!

But I will give them a buzz tomorrow and stir some!

Will keep ya all posted, cos I'm kinda having a bitta fun with this one!

coylemj

AMPSound wrote: »

1. I paid them for a service (the service of releasing my vehicle) and this service was not delivered.

You do not pay them money for a 'service', the money you pay is a fine for parking illegally following which they take the clamp off your vehicle, this being the lesser of two evils, the other one being that your car is towed to the pound which would cost you a lot more.

The stickers on your windscreen are put there for your benefit, the alternative being that without them there is a risk that you will attempt to drive off and cause damage to your vehicle.

Sorry but you don't have a leg to stand on pursuing this perceived grievance. If you do pursue it they will probably log you as an troublesome asshole and next time they see your car illegally parked they will have you lifted and towed away, that way they'll avoid the problem of annoying you by putting stickers on your windscreen but you'll pay about three times the regular clamping fine and have to pick your car up at some remote pound.

Shield

coylemj wrote: »

Sorry but you don't have a leg to stand on pursuing this perceived grievance.

I wouldn't be so quick to say that myself.

The stickers were put there for his benefit, fair enough, but it's not his fault that they cannot be easily removed. That would be the fault of the clamping company. I would say that the clamping company are responsible for restoring his car to the condition it was in before they applied whatever apparatus and warning signs/labels. If they are unable to do this, I would be making extensive notes, pictures, and records of conversations with people.

The OP is not to know what substance is used to affix these warning stickers to his car, and he himself could end up scratching the glass if they are so attached that they cannot be easily and quickly removed.

The fine was paid, therefore I would argue that the clamping company have an obligation to ensure the warning stickers are completely removed leaving no residue, and ensuring no damage is done to the window during their removal.

Alternatively, we could just all learn how to pick the clamping locks, which I don't believe is illegal:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=238rg_hFlgM

MagicSean

A private company do not have the authority to fine anyone. The money paid can only be described as payment for the removal service.

Irish_Elect_Eng

AMPSound wrote: »

I was clamped by NCPS today .......l.

So my issues are:

1. I paid them for a service (the service of releasing my vehicle) and this service was not delivered.
2. They defaced my personal property by leaving sticker residue on my window.
3. They caused me to be late for my "very important appointment" because I could not drive my vehicle after their sloppy release.

• You do not pay them for a service, the local council do. They run and administrate the clamping service for the council. Paying the fine is not a removal fee, there is no contracted service.
  
• By parking illegally you gave them permission to label, clamp or tow your car away.
  
• You caused you to be late for your appointment, by breaking the law, take responsibility for your own actions.

Skuxx

psni wrote: »

I wouldn't be so quick to say that myself.

The stickers were put there for his benefit, fair enough, but it's not his fault that they cannot be easily removed. That would be the fault of the clamping company. I would say that the clamping company are responsible for restoring his car to the condition it was in before they applied whatever apparatus and warning signs/labels. If they are unable to do this, I would be making extensive notes, pictures, and records of conversations with people.

The OP is not to know what substance is used to affix these warning stickers to his car, and he himself could end up scratching the glass if they are so attached that they cannot be easily and quickly removed.

The fine was paid, therefore I would argue that the clamping company have an obligation to ensure the warning stickers are completely removed leaving no residue, and ensuring no damage is done to the window

Yeah I fully agree with this! They put the stickers there to warn you that you have been clamped, but once you see the clamp and pay the fee then they should remove everything that they put on the car and return it to its original condition!

MagicSean

Irish_Elect_Eng wrote: »

• You do not pay them for a service, the local council do. They run and administrate the clamping service for the council. Paying the fine is not a removal fee, there is no contracted service.
  
• By parking illegally you gave them permission to label, clamp or tow your car away.
  
• You caused you to be late for your appointment, by breaking the law, take responsibility for your own actions.

Was it not on private property?

AMPSound

k_mac wrote: »

Was it not on private property?

Yeah - it was private property and a private company - so I don't know where people are getting "fines" and "council". NCPS cannot fine me!

Got a phone call just now from management, and she just asked why I was unhappy. I told her everything I told you guys, and she said she would ring me back later!

I will keep ya updated!

Yawns

I like it OP. Keep us updated plz.

Oh and do you need a lend of an angle grinder for that other project? The one that does not involve removing clamps from your car

source

I've dealt with the company through work and I have to say, I'm surprised you got a response from them today. I was calling them for weeks and never got a callback.

ValerieD

psni wrote: »

I wouldn't be so quick to say that myself.

The stickers were put there for his benefit, fair enough, but it's not his fault that they cannot be easily removed.

Warm water and soap is all it takes

Our man in Havana

So what? That is not the point here at all.

ValerieD

Our man in Havana wrote: »

So what? That is not the point here at all.

Never said it was

Johnny Utah

AMPSound wrote: »

As I said earlier, I am just picking a fight and being an ass! But, I can't help but notice that a few consumer laws are definitely being broken there! So really, all I want to know is how much I can take the piss out of this? At what point will I have gone too far (if not already)? Or do you think I should keep messing with their heads and get a refund on the sloppy service they provided!!! At the end of the day, €120 is better in my pocket than theirs!!

The European Court of Human Rights is probably a step too far!

PyeContinental

Any update, AMPsound?

AMPSound

PyeContinental wrote: »

Any update, AMPsound?

No unfortunately not. They are getting a letter this week.

And I may hit up the small claims court if that fails! :P

Shelflife

AMP sound

Please please please keep us up to date with this, the idea of annoying those who bring so much unnecessary grief onto others (in particular the private companies) brings joy to my soul.

strike one back for the little guys against the bully.

I find it so ironic that those that hide behind the rules dont like it when they are expected to follow their own rules.

Small claims court is a great idea !!!

AMPSound

Shelflife wrote: »

AMP sound

Please please please keep us up to date with this

I certainly will! I already have the draft of a "I won" post written up!! :P

Stay tuned! Sorry for the delay - but it's just one more thing we can blame on NCPS!!

Del2005

coylemj wrote: »

You do not pay them money for a 'service', the money you pay is a fine for parking illegally following which they take the clamp off your vehicle, this being the lesser of two evils, the other one being that your car is towed to the pound which would cost you a lot more.

The stickers on your windscreen are put there for your benefit, the alternative being that without them there is a risk that you will attempt to drive off and cause damage to your vehicle.

Sorry but you don't have a leg to stand on pursuing this perceived grievance. If you do pursue it they will probably log you as an troublesome asshole and next time they see your car illegally parked they will have you lifted and towed away, that way they'll avoid the problem of annoying you by putting stickers on your windscreen but you'll pay about three times the regular clamping fine and have to pick your car up at some remote pound.

NCPS are a private company and they are operating on shady legal ground as it is by clamping, once they move someone car it's theft and there's no gray area there.

skyhighflyer

Conincidentally, the Law Society Gazette featured an article discussing the legality of clamping this month - very interesting. The Gazette can be found here - see page 30.

AMPSound

skyhighflyer wrote: »

Conincidentally, the Law Society Gazette featured an article discussing the legality of clamping this month - very interesting. The Gazette can be found here - see page 30.

Unfortunately I can't open see that page on the iPhone, but I will check it out as soon as I get to the computer. Thanks for the link.

Wolfe Tone

skyhighflyer wrote: »

Conincidentally, the Law Society Gazette featured an article discussing the legality of clamping this month - very interesting. The Gazette can be found here - see page 30.

Written by one of our esteemed mods I believe.

M three

ValerieD wrote: »

Warm water and soap is all it takes

And where exactly do you get warm water and soap in a car park?

AMPSound

ValerieD wrote: »

Warm water and soap is all it takes

And what happens if your warm water and soap damages NCPS company property and you are then liable for criminal damage?

Del2005

skyhighflyer wrote: »

Conincidentally, the Law Society Gazette featured an article discussing the legality of clamping this month - very interesting. The Gazette can be found here - see page 30.

Interesting. How do I use this to get them to remove the clamp, if I'm ever clamped?

hardCopy

Any update OP?

AMPSound

Well firstly, I need to apologise for the delay in an update to this post - I had kinda forgotten about it... Until this morning when I got a letter bearing the NCPS logo on the top..... It went something like this:

In response to your letter regarding the appeal relating to the above serial number, we are pleased to inform you that your appeal has been successful.

Please note that we have refunded your Laser card with the amount of €125.

We strive to portray our company in the highest professional standard through continuous in-house staff training in procedures and customer relations however given the pressures of our business not all matters are dealt with how we would always like them to be. We are responsible for the actions of our employees and therefore we apologise for any upset or inconvenience caused.

NCPS now consider this matter to be closed.

All I can say is:

Opinicus

nice one!!!

StaticNoise

Bravo OP, bravo.
You tell 'em!

I would kill to have seen this thread discussed in After Hours, however!

Our man in Havana

It wouldn't be discussed for starters.

Fair play to the OP.

StaticNoise

Bravo OP, bravo.
You tell 'em!

I would kill to have seen this thread discussed in After Hours, however!

PyeContinental

Wow! Congratulations!
Well done for standing up for yourself, and setting a precedent for others to follow and refer to. Thanks for coming back to update the thread and let us know.

I wonder could you scan the letter and attach it, just to have irrefutable evidence of this for any of the Doubting Thomases?

BrianD

Nothing like getting a refund from the clampers. Got a refund from NCPS a few years ago labelled of course with "without prejudice".

Personally, I think clamping is a necessary evil and have no problem with it. What does get me is the lack of standards within the industry.

Clearly, the clampers should have removed the stickers and didn't - otherwise they wouldn't have sent a crew back to do it.

There's also due process that needs to be followed. I notices that many DSPS clampers clamp the car and then go back to the van and print out the documentation. Surely you should get the ticket first followed by the clamp? If the clampers had to suddenly go somewhere else your left with a clamp and no notice.

Resend

Del2005 wrote: »

NCPS are a private company and they are operating on shady legal ground as it is by clamping, once they move someone car it's theft and there's no gray area there.

why does no one ever sue them. If one was clamped what grounds would one take the case on?
Will this work in a hospital car park? the hosp employ the clampers

Our man in Havana

You would have to sue both clampers and hospital.

People do sue. Generally they will fold once they realise the claimant is serious.

MagicSean

As already discussed here, the clampers on private property are basically charging you for the service of removing the clamp. They dont have the power to fine you. If you can remove the clamp without damaging it there is nothing they can do. The current grey area is wether they have the power to clamp you in the first place. There are arguments for and against. Hopefully legislation will be passed soon to clarify this issue.

Rented Mule

This has been my favourite story of the week (beside the Usama bin Laden conspiracy theory thread) !!

Well done OP !!!

Fight the Power !!

ajraf

Brilliant story!!! Keep us updated on it!! I love arguing with aragont companies like that! My friend just cut the clamp off with an angle grinder the next day. He got away with it! that was a year ago! :P

Resend

Our man in Havana wrote: »

You would have to sue both clampers and hospital.

People do sue. Generally they will fold once they realise the claimant is serious.

thanks . what grounds would you sue the hosp on?

I t would be an interesting social experiment if a bunch of people pooled cash, got a clamp on private property and went to court.......

Our man in Havana

thanks . what grounds would you sue the hosp on?

On the basis that they hired the clampers and are responsible for their actions.

The hospital knew or ought to have known that the clamping was unlawful.

StupidLikeAFox

Hey guys, I did a bit of digging here and came across this, Section 113 of the Road Traffic Act

113.—(1) A person shall not, without lawful authority or reasonable cause, interfere or attempt to interfere with the mechanism of a mechanically propelled vehicle while it is stationary in a public place, or get on or into or attempt to get on or into the vehicle while it is so stationary.


(2) A person who contravenes subsection (1) of this section shall be guilty of an offence.


(3) Where a member of the Garda Síochána has reasonable grounds for believing that a person is committing an offence under this section, he may arrest the person without warrant.


(4) This section shall not apply to a person taking, in relation to a mechanically propelled vehicle which is obstructing his lawful ingress or egress to or from any place, such steps as are reasonably necessary to move the vehicle by human propulsion for a distance sufficient to terminate the obstruction.


(5) Where a person is charged with an offence under this section, it shall be a good defence to the charge for him to show that, when he did the act alleged to constitute the offence, he believed, and had reasonable grounds for believing, that he had lawful authority for doing that act.

Thats interesting, but it does say in a public place. Would you get anywhere by ringing the guards if you were clamped?

We have clampers in our estate who clamp you i you havent paid the management fee, would the road outside the house be considered a public place or is it private property? Also if it is private property, does the owner of the house not own it or does the management company have a right to employ the clampers?

BrianD

ColHol wrote: »

Hey guys, I did a bit of digging here and came across this, Section 113 of the Road Traffic Act

Thats interesting, but it does say in a public place. Would you get anywhere by ringing the guards if you were clamped?

We have clampers in our estate who clamp you i you havent paid the management fee, would the road outside the house be considered a public place or is it private property? Also if it is private property, does the owner of the house not own it or does the management company have a right to employ the clampers?

The answer might be in the first sentence "...without lawful authority or reasonable cause...". The clampers may be duly authorised by the management company to provide a clamping service.

The road outside your house may be a part of the development - is it a gated community or do you know if the road has been taken in hand by the local council?

As regards the parking spaces you need to check your contract. I'd imagine that if you bought a parking space, you have only bought the use of it. Having said that I don't know how they can clamp you if you've paid for the use of the space.

AMPSound

PyeContinental wrote: »

I wonder could you scan the letter and attach it, just to have irrefutable evidence of this for any of the Doubting Thomases?

The letter is word for word above, so there is no need to post a scan of it. However, if someone want's to fight something similar, I will email ya a copy! With case numbers etc etc etc

EDIT: Just read that properly - for doubting thomases - not for another NCPS fight! I will certainly pop a scan up now!

RATM

I'm pretty sure I heard a piece on the radio about the grey area of clamping on private property. The way it went was that the clampers aren't doing damage to your car so the law protects them to immobilse it (on some level at least). So now if you go and got an angle grinder and cut the clamp off the wheel they'd be perfectly within their rights to sue you for damaging their property.

However a convenient loopholes exists for those prepared to put some effort in. If you damage the clamp you're liable so running a similar trick to what 'Angle Grinder Man' in London is illegal as it damages property. But if you get out your wheel jack and (somehow) manage to get the wheel, clamp and all off without damaging it then your in the clear. After you've gotten the wheel off you'll have to put on your spare as the only way you'll ve able to get the clamp off your wheel is by letting the air out of it and then start wiggling until it falls off. If doing this its probably best to bring the clamp direct to the nearest Garda station in case the clampers tried to do you for theft. If you leave it loose on the roadside you might have a duty of care as it wouldn't be there except for your actions. Its a bit of hassle but its not €120 quids worth of hassle=)

MagicSean

The definition of a public place under the road traffic act also includes private property once the publics vehicles are given access to it.

djkavana

Hi,

I got clamped by the NCPS this morning after I rang up their control room last night at 1230 to say that their were no spots left in my estate. The guy on the phone said to park anywhere in the estate "out of the way" and that I would be good not to get clamped til the next day, so I did. Woke up this morning to find my car clamped (!), and after ringing the centre again today they said that even though they had told me it was okay to park the car there that I would still have to pay the fine to have it removed!