Croke Park Agreement Hours

vonnygav

Just wondering what schools out there are doing to allocate the hours for the remainder of this year.
Would be interesting to hear some of the ideas for clocking up the hours.:)

pooch90

Latest News
Croke Park Implementation
INTO is receiving a considerable number of queries in relation to the implementation of the Croke Park Agreement. The key principals underlining the Agreement are:
1. Central purpose underlying the provision of additional time is to provide for certain essential activities to take place outside class/tuition time.Key objective is to maximise class/tuition time.
2. The essential activities are:
•school planning
•continuous professional development
•induction
•pre and post school supervision
•policy development
•staff meetings
•nationally planned in-service
•school arranged in-service
3. There should be consultation at school level as to the optimum usage of the additional hours. Final decision is with the board of management.
4. Consultation process should prioritise the needs of the particular school and allocate hours for key activities.
5. With regard to planning - there is no template as to how planning should take place. A decision should be taken at school level as to the most effective way to plan in order to meet the needs of that particular school. The method of planning adopted can include individual, group or whole school planning or a combination of all three methods.
6. In allocating time to various activities from the block of 36 hours, it would be prudent in the first instance, to allocate time from those activities that will require a whole school involvement e.g. staff meetings. Secondly, hours should be allocated to those activities that involve a group of staff e.g. meetings of the Special Education Team. Any remaining hours (if any) can then be allocated to individual activities e.g. supervision.
7. The record of the total usage of the hours has to be published in some form for the school community. The form of publication is not prescribed and will vary from school to school. Forms of publication could include the use of the school notice board, a letter to parents, a school newsletter etc.


Our school is doing pre and post school supervision, individual planning and an extra meeting per term.

byhookorbycrook

We are doing 2 hrs at a time, working on policies.It's most unfair that activities such as coaching teams, sacramental preparation, concerts etc are just taken for granted in all of this.

mrboswell

Its only starting but the S**t is going to hit the fan...

There is no fair way of doing it as it will not suit everyone.

However in the long term I can see this being put aside so teachers will be in school for the whole day regardless of timetabling.

E.T.

There's a hell of a lot of rubbish being put out there about the extra hour. Individual/personal planning IS allowed. It does not say anywhere that it isn't. Planning doesn't have to be done in a group or pairs, it can be done alone. There's a lot of schools getting teachers to do extra "show" work, on top of all the extra hours that are done, and it's of no benefit. There's a new statement on the INTO website, it's worth checking out.

Trotter

I cannot believe that after school sports don't count. Basically they're saying "please do volunteer your time for free for the good of the children, and when you're finished, you still owe us an hour".

It drives people who happily volunteered 5-10 hours extra a week into making sure they give 1 hour, and 1 hour only.

mrboswell

Thats my point - people will protest by ONLY doing the extra hours and extra-curricular will suffer, in some schools more than others.

Benicetomonty

35% of us voted on this agreement and out of that scant figure, a 2 to 1 majority voted yes. Why complain now? We are free to do what they tell us, we are free to do what they tell us...

mrboswell

If you voted no you have every right to complain. If you voted yes then I'm sure you are happy already.

It will depend on what management will propose. If the school decides that on a Thursday everyone should stay an hour late, for example, that would go down like a lead balloon. I think school life will probably suffer in the long run.

Anyway if doesn't really matter as the agreement will be reneged by whoever gets in to govern the country. We'll be back to square one.

E.T.

Teachers do need to stand up for themselves - the decision at the end of the day is down to the BOM but there is supposed to be agreement among the staff about the way the hour is to be worked. I've heard of plenty of pushy principals coming into staffrooms with the hour all worked out on their terms, but there's nothing stopping us speaking our minds.

At the end of the day the hour is supposed to stop time being taken out of class to get things done, so if you're not happy with what's being pushed on you, then ask the principal/BOM to state exactly how their plan is going to do this.

doc_17

The extra hour is going to be a source of real annoyance in months to come. I take a few extra curricular activities (voluntarily of course). I always found it a bit annoying that so many other teachers don't take any teams/musicals/debate or whatever. They come and go with the first and last bell. This group of teachers will no doubt be the most vocal in their complaints about the extra hour.

From a second level point of view I've a few compelling arguments that the extra hour should have been used for teaching as this would increase subject choice etc. I'd rather work a real extra hour and maintain my pay at current levels.

Trotter

doc_17 wrote: »

I always found it a bit annoying that so many other teachers don't take any teams/musicals/debate or whatever. They come and go with the first and last bell. This group of teachers will no doubt be the most vocal in their complaints about the extra hour.

I'd have to disagree there. I'd say its the people who are doing the extra few hours and who now are expected to continue to volunteer the time, and on top of that, do their extra hour, are most exhasperated. That'd be the category Im in.

Also, I'd never criticise another teacher for not doing the voluntary after school stuff because I choose to do it. They may have more commitments after school than I do. I don't know their personal circumstances.

Miss Lockhart

How are the extra hours applied to those on part time pro rata contracts? If you have 11 hours pro rata are you expected to do half the extra hours?

Several schools seem to be bringing in set weekly meetings or planning which everyone must attend - that would mean those on part time contracts (and therefore less pay) doing the same extra hours as those on full hours and pay.

doc_17

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

How are the extra hours applied to those on part time pro rata contracts? If you have 11 hours pro rata are you expected to do half the extra hours?

Several schools seem to be bringing in set weekly meetings or planning which everyone must attend - that would mean those on part time contracts (and therefore less pay) doing the same extra hours as those on full hours and pay.

As far as I know if you have any contracted hours you have to do the extra hour. No matter if it's 2 or 22.

doc_17

Trotter wrote: »

I'd have to disagree there. I'd say its the people who are doing the extra few hours and who now are expected to continue to volunteer the time, and on top of that, do their extra hour, are most exhasperated. That'd be the category Im in.

Also, I'd never criticise another teacher for not doing the voluntary after school stuff because I choose to do it. They may have more commitments after school than I do. I don't know their personal circumstances.

If you are already giving up loads of time after school then you are on for a penny or pound. The extra hour doesn't bother me - what concerns me more is what is being done with it.

Whilst I don't want to criticise any other teacher I do think it's healthy that as many Teachers as possible get involved will all aspects of the school.

Bit this extra hour debate with crank up a gear when our pay is further cut. What sort of appetite will people have for it then?

If anything here is nearly an argument for us to reneg on it now. No more pay cuts? Wasn't that the deal? I'm down amines 40 net since the last budget.

rainbowtrout

Trotter wrote: »

I'd have to disagree there. I'd say its the people who are doing the extra few hours and who now are expected to continue to volunteer the time, and on top of that, do their extra hour, are most exhasperated. That'd be the category Im in.

Also, I'd never criticise another teacher for not doing the voluntary after school stuff because I choose to do it. They may have more commitments after school than I do. I don't know their personal circumstances.

I'd agree, I'm single and live in the town I work in. I have the time to give to extra curricular. However some people commute, have children etc and I don't think it's unreasonable for them to want to go home and spend time with their own children in the evening.

Also agree with the use of the extra hour. Again while it can be put to use for planning, PT meetings, it just seems that no value is put on extra curricular activites to which lots of time is given by many teachers around the country.

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

How are the extra hours applied to those on part time pro rata contracts? If you have 11 hours pro rata are you expected to do half the extra hours?

Several schools seem to be bringing in set weekly meetings or planning which everyone must attend - that would mean those on part time contracts (and therefore less pay) doing the same extra hours as those on full hours and pay.

I read that it was pro-rata. Must find the link.

doc_17 wrote: »

If you are already giving up loads of time after school then you are on for a penny or pound. The extra hour doesn't bother me - what concerns me more is what is being done with it.

Whilst I don't want to criticise any other teacher I do think it's healthy that as many Teachers as possible get involved will all aspects of the school.

Bit this extra hour debate with crank up a gear when our pay is further cut. What sort of appetite will people have for it then?

If anything here is nearly an argument for us to reneg on it now. No more pay cuts? Wasn't that the deal? I'm down amines 40 net since the last budget.

I don't fully agree. Extra curricular stuff takes up a fair bit of time, I don't mind the hour being used for parent teacher meetings outside schools hours etc but I know in my school that extra curricular will still be expected to continue as normal on top of that.

I agree that teachers should get involved outside of their timetabled class hours, but some have other commitments and should not be expected to be on call at the school 24/7.

We won't be able to renege on the CPA if pay is cut through taxation. Technically that's not a pay cut and we have agreed to no strikes.

doc_17

I believe that all teachers are equal and should be treated as such. If we go down the road of saying they live a bit further away and have more kids etc then I don't fully agree with that either. It'll be the newer, younger, paid 10% less and have least contract hours that, as usual, have to do more than their fair share.
But what I'm trying to get at is that some people do nothing, yet my pay will rise and fall with theirs

Trotter

doc_17 wrote: »

But what I'm trying to get at is that some people do nothing, yet my pay will rise and fall with theirs

They do nothing? Doing their job well and going home to care for a family isn't nothing.

rainbowtrout

doc_17 wrote: »

I believe that all teachers are equal and should be treated as such. If we go down the road of saying they live a bit further away and have more kids etc then I don't fully agree with that either. It'll be the newer, younger, paid 10% less and have least contract hours that, as usual, have to do more than their fair share.
But what I'm trying to get at is that some people do nothing, yet my pay will rise and fall with theirs

I've been teaching 10 years. I do my fair share of extra curricular. Some of the older staff don't do any and leave at 4 each day and go home to their families. I don't begrudge them that, they put in the hours when they were younger. If the time comes that I have a family and children I won't feel a bit guilty about leaving after last class to go home and look after my family.

Why is it that teachers get such a raw deal in this respect, there seems to be some sort of pervading notion that they are not allowed to have lives and families.

As for the ones that have never done anything, some people do nothing in all sorts of jobs, teaching is no different.


As for the commuting teachers, some commute out of lack of choice, one of my friends teaches in Dublin but lives in Roscommon. At the start she was commuting 5 days a week, now she stays in Dublin a few nights and commutes a few nights, I wouldn't begrudge her getting away after school so she might actually get home and eat a dinner and have an hour or two free time before she has to go to bed and do it all again the next day.


All teachers are treated equal. Teachers choose to do extra curricular activities and while it's nice for as many as possible to get involved I'm not going to look down on anyone that doesn't. Another friend of mine who is a teacher is barely making ends meet at the moment and can barely afford childcare. Staying after school means her childcare costs her more and she can't do it. She has to leave when she is finished whether she wants to or not.

mrboswell

Trotter wrote: »

They do nothing? Doing their job well and going home to care for a family isn't nothing.

Everyone doing their job well is another story but it is a choice whether people chose to give time to extra-curricular.

Going home to care for a family isn't nothing either but if the hour comes in standard, say on a Wednesday for everyone, it will probably effect those with a family the most.

I think what most people are getting at is that extra curricular adds value to a school as much as any of the other meetings does. So if everyone has to give an extra hour why not allow it to be something that adds value to the school and that teacher will want to do.

That way anyone who doesn't want to do extra-curricular can do school planning or whatever else need to be done.

Wonder if that would boost the number of teachers doing extra-curricular??

doc_17

Trotter wrote: »

They do nothing? Doing their job well and going home to care for a family isn't nothing.

I think you've taken my comment out of context there. By "doing nothing" I meant take no part in any voluntary extra curricular activities.

It's nearly always left to the same few soldiers in each school. I say this as someone who drives 2hrs20 min a day to and from work. Unfortunately the girls in our school couldn't have a Gaelic team this year cos nobody would be bothered taking them. The same few just couldn't keep taking on more and more.

rainbowtrout

doc_17 wrote: »

I think you've taken my comment out of context there. By "doing nothing" I meant take no part in any voluntary extra curricular activities.

It's nearly always left to the same few soldiers in each school. I say this as someone who drives 2hrs20 min a day to and from work. Unfortunately the girls in our school couldn't have a Gaelic team this year cos nobody would be bothered taking them. The same few just couldn't keep taking on more and more.

The clue is in the name. People have changed. Many years ago teaching was seen as a vocation and teachers gave up lots of free time to do extra curricular stuff. That has changed and people in general (not just teachers) do not give as much time to voluntary activities e.g. Being a scout leader, coaching the local GAA team. They give priority to other things in their lives. The way we live has changed as well. More people commute long distances and work long hours and are not always willing to work even longer hours, for no remuneration and often for no thanks.

Some parents - not all as some are great - view extra curricular activities as a dumping ground to get rid of their children for a few hours. I've often been in the school when we've had a school musical on and the rehearsals take place in the evening after school, say between 8-10pm. Every evening there are children left there until 10.30 - 10.40 until some parent comes to collect them. It's not usually a case that something urgent came up. I've given a student my phone to ring home in the past only to find the parent is still at home watching TV and wasn't moving only for the fact that we called. A lot of teachers don't appreciate hanging around the school waiting with a student for an extra 30 minutes until a parent finally shows up.

One of the teachers I work with takes basketball after school. Most kids appreciate it and thank her for it. One kid (thought to be one of the ones there for babysitting purposes) was messing last week when he was supposed to be doing something else, she took the ball off him and he called her a cnut in return. Granted that's not a common occurrence but there comes a point where you wonder why you bother.

I've been on plenty of foreign school tours, all done during midterm breaks. We had the usual evening activities arranged, bowling, swimming, etc. Can remember one tour where we went through 40 kids before we went on the tour and about 5 said they didn't want to swim. Grand, no problem. Sent them all up to their rooms after dinner the evening of the swimming activity to get their gear and assemble in the hotel lobby. A while later they all arrived back and as we motioned to go most of them started shuffling around and we knew something was up. Eventually when a few spoke up it transpired only 7 or 8 bothered to bring togs despite the fact that they knew this was the activity and had signed up for it. They had all decided collectively that they weren't going swimming that evening. What was worse was the 30 odd just stood there and said 'So what activity are you going to arrange for us instead' That attitude of entitlement had pervaded many students over the last number of years, hopefully it will wane again, but it makes you think twice about bringing students anywhere.

To top it off the principal didn't even bother to ask us how we got on.

Now I've been on plenty of other tours which went off without a hitch and we had a great time, but when I came home from that one I did think 'Why am I giving up my midterm break to bring a bunch of unappreciative teenagers on holiday, when I could just go on holiday with my friends instead?'

I still am involved in extra curricular activities but I don't feel a bit guilty if someone asks me to get involved in something and I say no because it doesn't suit me. I am entitled to some time off from the job.

RTT

I do think that the extra hour will will lead to a reduction in teachers giving up their free time. I take football teams in a primary school a few days a week after school and sometimes during lunch, although another teacher in the school has the post of responsibility. She feels she lacks the experience to train the teams.

Some staff members have asked me why I'm bothering to do it. Truth is I enjoy it and I'm young with no family commitments to rush home for in the evenings.
Many teachers are complaining about the one hour when some of us are putting in 5-6 hours a week after school, especially days when we have an away game and may not get back until 5pm.

I've been training the teams for the last few years and now I'm asked to give up more time. There are some teachers in my school who take dance classes, art class, homework club or French/ German etc. all for financial reward and to be honest I do feel unappreciated. Not that I'm just giving up my time for some appreciation or recognition. But it is nice to be thanked now and again. I beginning to feel with pay cuts and interest rate rises that I may be better off giving grinds or something. The only trouble is that then the school will not have a football team as nobody else will take it on. Difficult at the moment to even get another staff member to help out some match days to put up nets, mark the pitch etc!

doc_17

RTT wrote: »

I do think that the extra hour will will lead to a reduction in teachers giving up their free time. I take football teams in a primary school a few days a week after school and sometimes during lunch, although another teacher in the school has the post of responsibility. She feels she lacks the experience to train the teams.

Some staff members have asked me why I'm bothering to do it. Truth is I enjoy it and I'm young with no family commitments to rush home for in the evenings.
Many teachers are complaining about the one hour when some of us are putting in 5-6 hours a week after school, especially days when we have an away game and may not get back until 5pm.

I've been training the teams for the last few years and now I'm asked to give up more time. There are some teachers in my school who take dance classes, art class, homework club or French/ German etc. all for financial reward and to be honest I do feel unappreciated. Not that I'm just giving up my time for some appreciation or recognition. But it is nice to be thanked now and again. I beginning to feel with pay cuts and interest rate rises that I may be better off giving grinds or something. The only trouble is that then the school will not have a football team as nobody else will take it on. Difficult at the moment to even get another staff member to help out some match days to put up nets, mark the pitch etc!

Yeah a little help would do you the world of good. Some people on here have made valid points about teachers having to commute long distances or race home to look after kids. There are also lots of teachers who live local(ish) and could do a bit more but don't. I'd say every one of us was asked at interview would we help with extra curricular activities. Some said yes genuinely and some simply said yes. It makes it harder in every school when it is left to a few

freckly

doc_17 wrote: »

From a second level point of view I've a few compelling arguments that the extra hour should have been used for teaching as this would increase subject choice etc. I'd rather work a real extra hour and maintain my pay at current levels.

I am very glad that we are not teaching the extra hour. Im secondary and a few years out and still subbing. Imagine the amount of non-permanent staff who would be let go and the RPT hours which would disappear.
On the subject of extra curricular I believe that it really should only be done by those who want to do it. Make it part of the extra hour and there is a risk of disinterested staff standing watching the kids kick a ball around, not training the team! It's annoying when you can't get people to help you but sure personal time is just that

Coolio

The extra hour being forced on teachers will alienate those who are already giving that and more to sport etc and you will get the other teachers turning up for extra hour hour of planning or whatever but will not be engaged. They'll be just clocking in, not actively participating.
Alot of posts here refer to older teachers tailing it out the gate at 4. What has created a situation where it's deemed acceptable that as you move through your career you opt out and leave it to the young ones? Well the pay scale rewards longevity as if experience in a job is the only means of determining a teachers worth. There is no reward for participation in CPD or extra-curricular activities. This needs to be addressed alongside any requirement for extra hours.

rainbowtrout

Coolio wrote: »

The extra hour being forced on teachers will alienate those who are already giving that and more to sport etc and you will get the other teachers turning up for extra hour hour of planning or whatever but will not be engaged. They'll be just clocking in, not actively participating.
Alot of posts here refer to older teachers tailing it out the gate at 4. What has created a situation where it's deemed acceptable that as you move through your career you opt out and leave it to the young ones? Well the pay scale rewards longevity as if experience in a job is the only means of determining a teachers worth. There is no reward for participation in CPD or extra-curricular activities. This needs to be addressed alongside any requirement for extra hours.

I was one of the people who made that point and I wonder what point we have reached here where there are a lot of posts on the thread who condemn teachers who want to go home to their families? Is that not normal? Are we embracing a corporate culture where unless you are in the office after hours every night you are not deemed to be working hard enough? There is a tendency for those teachers that do not stay behind after school to be that bit older as the majority of people are not starting their families until they hit the 30 mark. A large number of teachers under 30 do not have children and do not have the same responsibilities.

I'm 32 and if I have any children in the next 10 years or so, I'd hate to think I'd be thought any less of in my staffroom because I choose to go home and cook a dinner for my children after school, or help them with their homework, or spend some quality time with them instead of standing on the side of a muddy pitch supervising a football training session etc.

I do agree though with what you're saying about some teachers will only clock in the extra hour because they have to.

Coolio

I'm not sure i made my point clear. I have a young family and have a 40 min commute to school. I'm not condemning those who leave at 4 per se but those who feel their work starts and finishes at the classroom door. This is compounded and validated by the pay scale which gives automatic increases each year. This is my issue. Those who are trying to embrace new teaching methodologies and keeping up to date with current theories etc are paid equally to those who don't bother because the system doesn't bother to differentiate.

rainbowtrout

Coolio wrote: »

I'm not sure i made my point clear. I have a young family and have a 40 min commute to school. I'm not condemning those who leave at 4 per se but those who feel their work starts and finishes at the classroom door. This is compounded and validated by the pay scale which gives automatic increases each year. This is my issue. Those who are trying to embrace new teaching methodologies and keeping up to date with current theories etc are paid equally to those who don't bother because the system doesn't bother to differentiate.

Actually I think that's a different issue completely. I don't see what extra curricular activities have to do with embracing new teaching methodologies. There are plenty of older staff/people who live near the school etc where I work who do embrace new teaching methodologies and do keep up to date. They just choose not to do extra curricular stuff.

Sometimes I stay behind at school to do work, sometimes I go straight home on the dot of 4. That doesn't mean I don't do any work at home. On the contrary, I prefer to work at home than at school, because I'm not seen after school some days doesn't mean I'm not doing the work.

Coolio

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I don't see what extra curricular activities have to do with embracing new teaching methodologies.

Where did I link these?

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Sometimes I stay behind at school to do work, sometimes I go straight home on the dot of 4. That doesn't mean I don't do any work at home. On the contrary, I prefer to work at home than at school, because I'm not seen after school some days doesn't mean I'm not doing the work.

Not sure how this relates to my post. I made no claims about doing work at home or otherwise. If you read back my previous post what I said was that I'd no issue with "those who leave at 4 per se but those who feel their work starts and finishes at the classroom door". This does not translate into meaning people who work at home are also in this bracket.

rainbowtrout

Coolio wrote: »

Where did I link these?

Not sure how this relates to my post. I made no claims about doing work at home or otherwise. If you read back my previous post what I said was that I'd no issue with "those who leave at 4 per se but those who feel their work starts and finishes at the classroom door". This does not translate into meaning people who work at home are also in this bracket.

In your previous post you said

Those who are trying to embrace new teaching methodologies and keeping up to date with current theories etc are paid equally to those who don't bother because the system doesn't bother to differentiate.

As we have been discussing the use of the extra hour as per CPA, your post implies that not only are some teachers not willing to do extra curricular stuff but also that they are not willing to upskill.

Coolio

rainbowtrout wrote: »

As we have been discussing the use of the extra hour as per CPA, your post implies that not only are some teachers not willing to do extra curricular stuff

This is my opinion, yes.

rainbowtrout wrote: »

but also that they are not willing to upskill.

This is also my opinion, yes.

I'm pretty sure I'm entitled to hold these opinions which haven't just popped into my head overnight. They are based on years of experience and first-hand observations.

They are two separate things just in case there's confusion.

rainbowtrout

Coolio wrote: »

I'm pretty sure I'm entitled to hold these opinions which haven't just popped into my head overnight. They are based on years of experience and first-hand observations.

They are two separate things just in case there's confusion.

Well of course you are, but I wouldn't agree to the same extent, it just seemed from your original post that both were the same thing.

To be fair to the staff in my school most teachers have been willing to upskill, to different degrees but most have embraced new technology etc.

Delphi91

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

How are the extra hours applied to those on part time pro rata contracts? If you have 11 hours pro rata are you expected to do half the extra hours?

Several schools seem to be bringing in set weekly meetings or planning which everyone must attend - that would mean those on part time contracts (and therefore less pay) doing the same extra hours as those on full hours and pay.

According the the ASTI website:

Q. Is someone on a job-share expected to do the full 33 hours or just 16.5 hours?

A. Part-time teachers are required to work the extra hours on a pro-rata basis. This means that a job-sharer on 11 hours would be required to work 16.5 hours. The prioritisation of these hours should be agreed between the principal and the teacher/s.