If motor tax went on the price of fuel.........

.......... how much per litre would it need to be to equate to what you pay now?

Roughly for me ........

2002 MG ZT 2.5 taxed on CC, €935 I think per annum, let's call it a grand (to allow for paying it quarterly etc).
10,000 miles a year at 20mpg so 500 gallons which is 2270 litres
(4.54 litres in a gallon for those who didn't know)
so they'd need to have €0. (1000/2270) on the petrol ie €0.44.

Any less than that and I'd be laughing.

Padraig Mor

Remember reading somewhere before that they would need to put on about 50 cents a litre to balance out loss of motor tax.

Absurdum

I'm going through ~4000 litres per year, paying €1566 motor tax, so I'd be screwed again.

Seweryn

RoverJames wrote: »

.......... how much per litre would it need to be to equate to what you pay now?

Roughly for me ........

2002 MG ZT 2.5 taxed on CC, €935 I think per annum, let's call it a grand (to allow for paying it quarterly etc).
10,000 miles a year at 20mpg so 500 gallons which is 2270 litres
(4.54 litres in a gallon for those who didn't know)
so they'd need to have €0. (1000/2270) on the petrol ie €0.44.

Any less than that and I'd be laughing.

My one would be like that:

Tax per year - €365 x 4 = €1,460
Fuel approximately (20k km, €1.40 per litre, 8.5l/100km) - €2,380
Total - €3,960
Increase in price of Diesel fuel - +0.93 :eek: (am I right?)

Padraig Mor

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Remember reading somewhere before that they would need to put on about 50 cents a litre to balance out loss of motor tax.

Makes sense

I used to run a diesel Rover 400 that did high 30s mpg on the same runs the ZT does 20mpg, for them to get the €600 and odd off me for that they'd need to put €0.53 ish on a litre of diesel.

The folks running the modern post 2008 stuff would go bananas.

Absurdum

and of course, if we responded by using our cars less (which presumably would be what they'd want, to help save the planet etc), they'd increase it :mad:

mickdw

Any more than 15c/L added would mean Id be losing out with current car.

I use about 3000L doing 20,000 miles per year and currently pay 450 tax.

Still, given that putting the tax on fuel would open up the option of having various large engined weekend cars, Id be happy to see it come in.

Atlantic Dawn

You need to probably discount about 10% because all the foreign registered vehicles would also be contributing for using our roads if it was purely on on fuel.

mickdw

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

You need to probably discount about 10% because all the foreign registered vehicles would also be contributing for using our roads if it was purely on on fuel.

And add it back on again to account for the number of cars driving around on illegallly imported (and therefore non tax paid) diesel

firefly08

And add it back on again to account for the number of cars driving around on illegallly imported (and therefore non tax paid) diesel

...and then subtract it again because the cost of collecting motor tax would be completely eliminated.

Anyway, doesn't it cost more across the border?

unkel

It will be in the region of €0.20 - €0.30 per litre. The clean motorist will save money but the polluter will be worse of. Just as it should be

firefly08 wrote: »

the cost of collecting motor tax would be completely eliminated.

Indeed! Compliance will be near 100% with administration costs near zero. Perfect taxation.

unkel

unkel wrote: »

It will be in the region of €0.20 - €0.30 per litre.

It will :cool: ? Do you know something ?
I'd love that to be honest, big V8 or keep the ZT and get a rev3 MR2 too.

Redisle

Has anyone actually approached any politicians with this? I mean they are always looking for ways to reduce the public service.. Im sure abolishing the entire motor tax office would save a few quid.

mickdw

firefly08 wrote: »

Anyway, doesn't it cost more across the border?

Not the type of fuel I was referring to (dodgy washed stuff etc) which has significant distribution here and certainly with this tax added, the genuine NI stuff will be cheaper too

unkel

RoverJames wrote: »

It will :cool: ?

Will, could, would, might, etc. Semantics galore

Seriously, I think I did a bit of research at some point. Divide total motor tax income for the state by total fuel sold at the pumps or something like that...

Eric Cartman

288 in road tax (commercial) 35,000 miles a year @ 28mpg = 5675 litres a year so 288/5675 = 0.05 , 5 cent a litre to cover my tax, yeah i could live with that

private tax would be 2100 though 2100/5675 = 37 cent a litre , couldnt handle that

rex-x

lets not forget about 50% of cars pay no tax atm alot of the time and this would give 100% compliance so they would need less. also no money to make tax discs send out reminders etc so could reduce it again

congo_90

so bigger fuel consumers eg large engine cars, commuters living away from a decent public transport infrastructure, taxi's and those who like the oul Sunday drive will pay more than Mary down the road who fills up once a lifetime?

I cannot see that as fair also the gov would begin losing out due to people suddenly driving less to save. I'm too tired to do the maths right now.

challengemaster

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Remember reading somewhere before that they would need to put on about 50 cents a litre to balance out loss of motor tax.

€2 a litre? Fúck that.

Victor

Motor tax in 2001 is €950m.

Diesel about 0.832 kg/l
Petrol about 0.737 kg/L
Average, say, about 0.78 kg/L

2,369,000 tonnes of oil equivalent used by private cars (likely to include motorbikes, but thats going to be modest) in 2009 (I think consumption has dropped, but I imagine only slightly) = 3,030,000,000 litres.

€950m / 3,030,000,000 litres = 31.3c/L

However, I'm not certain that any government would want to completely remove motor tax - they will want to keep track of the number of vehicles in use. Further, completely removing motor tax would likely lead to people buying vehicles with larger consumption as they would be cheaper 'up front'.

Absurdum wrote: »

and of course, if we responded by using our cars less (which presumably would be what they'd want, to help save the planet etc), they'd increase it :mad:

No, the solution would be to tax something else.

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

You need to probably discount about 10% because all the foreign registered vehicles would also be contributing for using our roads if it was purely on on fuel.

But Irish vehicles are also used abroad and fuel exported in visiting vehicles. This is particularly important as fuel here is cheaper than in the UK.

mickdw wrote: »

And add it back on again to account for the number of cars driving around on illegallly imported (and therefore non tax paid) diesel

Do you want to think that out again? Most tax evasion relating to petroleum is down to the mis-use of agricultural diesel.

E39MSport

For me: -

8er = 13.70 per litre
lc = 2.14 per litre
corolla = .60 per litre
LS = 3.40 per litre

Of course I'd be over the moon if this 'society' became a fairer place.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA .......

congo_90

congo_90 wrote: »

so bigger fuel consumers eg large engine cars, commuters living away from a decent public transport infrastructure, taxi's and those who like the oul Sunday drive will pay more than Mary down the road who fills up once a lifetime?

I cannot see that as fair ...............

.

Why isn't it fair if Mary doesn't use the roads a lot. Also Taxi's would I imagine be allowed to reclaim the majority of tax on the fuel as PSV motor tax is quite small.

Anan1

RoverJames wrote: »

Roughly for me ........

2002 MG ZT 2.5 taxed on CC, €935 I think per annum, let's call it a grand (to allow for paying it quarterly etc).
10,000 miles a year at 20mpg so 500 gallons which is 2270 litres
(4.54 litres in a gallon for those who didn't know)
so they'd need to have €0. (1000/2270) on the petrol ie €0.44.

Any less than that and I'd be laughing.

Snap, i'm 2.5 litre, 20mpg and around 10k miles pa too. This time last year, my 10k miles pa was spread over €2500pa of tax, which for me would have justified paying €2.50/litre!

greenermetals

Dont think theyll ever bring it in, it would be TOO effective in saving the environment. people would drive less, buy smaller cars/motorbikes, use alternative fuels where viable, use public transport. The government doesnt want this, they want more revenue. Look at the tax based on co2 emissions, it was too effective and now they are dropping the bands due to loss of revenue.

Factor in the cost of fleets of forty foot oil lorries flooding in from the north, filled with washed diesel, and a complete loss to the government of ALL fuel based duties.

Introduction of fuel based taxation --> less fuel use+illegal fuel--> less tax revenue = RE-introduction of motortax+ increase in fuel prices.

End result, motorist fecked over again.

If they just got everyone to pay the tax due now, there would be no need for everyone to be paying as much.

Big Nasty

At current prices I would break even @ €2.25 / ltr!:eek::eek::eek:

unkel

Victor wrote: »

Motor tax in 2001 is €950m.

Diesel about 0.832 kg/l
Petrol about 0.737 kg/L
Average, say, about 0.78 kg/L

2,369,000 tonnes of oil equivalent used by private cars (likely to include motorbikes, but thats going to be modest) in 2009 (I think consumption has dropped, but I imagine only slightly) = 3,030,000,000 litres.

€950m / 3,030,000,000 litres = 31.3c/L

Thanks for the sums, Victor. Have you any figure for oil equivalent used by commercial vehicles? If it is roughly the same as private use, the government would only have to slap on €0.15 per litre and motor tax can be abolished. And the saving in admin costs is a bonus! That's a low enough figure to convince a lot of people, I'd have thought!

Chippy01

I think they done this already? Didn't they?
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but around 1978/79 'road tax' was 'abolished' (for want of a better word), and fuel prices were increased to make up for the 'road tax'.
To keep an eye on the amount of vehicles on the road, a £5 registration fee was also introduced. This very quickly went up to £10, and then £20.
Then the name was changed to Motor Tax, and a 'new' system was introduced. Your 'motor' would be taxed on it's size. Sounds familiar?
All this happened over a number of years/elections/budgets, etc, but not one penny of the originally added 'road tax' that went on fuel was taken back off again.

As I said, please correct me if I'm wrong.......

Anan1

unkel wrote: »

Thanks for the sums, Victor. Have you any figure for oil equivalent used by commercial vehicles? If it is roughly the same as private use, the government would only have to slap on €0.15 per litre and motor tax can be abolished. And the saving in admin costs is a bonus! That's a low enough figure to convince a lot of people, I'd have thought!

Lest anyone get too excited at the prospect of cheap elderly V8s with cheap tax, a side effect of this would be a steep rise in the value of older large-engined cars and a fall in values for post-08 tax specials. Still works for me, though!

Big Nasty

Anan1 wrote: »

Lest anyone get too excited at the prospect of cheap elderly V8s with cheap tax, a side effect of this would be a steep rise in the value of older large-engined cars and a fall in values for post-08 tax specials. Still works for me, though!

And me!

unkel

Anan1 wrote: »

Lest anyone get too excited at the prospect of cheap elderly V8s with cheap tax, a side effect of this would be a steep rise in the value of older large-engined cars and a fall in values for post-08 tax specials. Still works for me, though!

They will go up in value alright, but maybe not as steep as we think. The vast majority of people in this country are allergic to big engines, because of the motor tax and fuel consumption. Take the former away and the latter is still there, and felt even harder with the new increase in duty (to replace the tax). And with the inevitable long term increase in the underlying oil price and the nice insurance barrier (V8s are only insurable by old safe drivers like us ), I think we'll be alright. Bring it on

Big Nasty

unkel wrote: »

They will go up in value alright, but maybe not as steep as we think. The vast majority of people in this country are allergic to big engines, because of the motor tax and fuel consumption. Take the former away and the latter is still there, and felt even harder with the new increase in duty (to replace the tax). And with the inevitable long term increase in the underlying oil price and the nice insurance barrier (V8s are only insurable by old safe drivers like us ), I think we'll be alright. Bring it on

Damn straight!

How do we go about campaigning for this? Talk to the Greens!?!:D:eek:

vibe666

sounds good to me and i've been saying it for years.

people could keep their gas guzzling classics which only do a few thousand miles every year without it costing them a fortune to tax them.

road tax is supposed to (afaik) cover the cost of maintaining the roads for road users, so a system that is a direct tax based on how much you use the roads sounds ideal.

why should a little old lady who only does 2,000 miles a year pay as much car tax as someone with the same car who does 50,000 miles a year and contributes much more to both carbon emissions and general wear and tear on the roads?

"more road use = more tax" seems to make a lot of sense.

there might need to be some sort of tachograph based rebates for commercial users, but apart from that it seems like a great idea.

unkel

vibe666 wrote: »

there might need to be some sort of tachograph based rebates for commercial users

Why? Tax should be based on usage / pollution. There really is no room for discounts / subsidies in the "polluter pays" principle. And yes, the increased cost of commercial transport will lead to some products and services going up in price a bit. So be it.

Vertakill

While I'd love to see this implemented for my own personal reasons, as it would save me an awful lot of money p/year... it would effectively put every hauliage/courier company out of business, not to mention taxi's/limo services.

It is funny though that, allegedly, it currently IS in theory 'the polluter pays' with this whole CC/co2 based motor tax... even though in practice, it's actually working the opposite.

seamus

Vertakill wrote: »

While I'd love to see this implemented for my own personal reasons, as it would save me an awful lot of money p/year... it would effectively put every hauliage/courier company out of business, not to mention taxi's/limo services.

Well in reality you would allow all commercials to claim a certain % of fuel expenses back from Revenue to offset any increase in costs.
Sure all hauliers and taxis can write off their fuel bill against their tax bill as it is right? So it will work exactly the same for them.

shawnee

I feel the tax on fuel is the way to go. If you drive 5k per year why should you pay the same road tax as someone who drives 50k per year. It does not make sense that a 3 litre car is taxed at approx 2k while a 1 litre is 200 euro approx.
France use a system similar to this and it works well. Very little administration and there is a huge saving there with all these motor tax offices all over the country. No tax evasion because everybody has to pay when they are on the road.

Vertakill

seamus wrote: »

Well in reality you would allow all commercials to claim a certain % of fuel expenses back from Revenue to offset any increase in costs.
Sure all hauliers and taxis can write off their fuel bill against their tax bill as it is right? So it will work exactly the same for them.

Exactly. I was just referring to unkel's post about no room for discounts.
Surely there'd have to be some subsidies.

unkel wrote: »

There really is no room for discounts / subsidies in the "polluter pays" principle.

E39MSport

We're rotating our cars this year.

I'm fcuked if I'm forking out 6k plus again for the privilege of dodging road craters for another year.

Might even save enough cash for another motor

keithclancy

unkel wrote: »

Why? Tax should be based on usage / pollution. There really is no room for discounts / subsidies in the "polluter pays" principle. And yes, the increased cost of commercial transport will lead to some products and services going up in price a bit. So be it.

Because if you drive to the shop in your car to get a carton of milk then your polluting alot more than the truck delivering thousands of cartons of milk to various shops and supermarkets around the place.

End of the day the shops need their deliveries, otherwise they cannot operate and you end up having to drive further to get goods which means everyone ends up polluting more.

Victor

unkel wrote: »

Thanks for the sums, Victor. Have you any figure for oil equivalent used by commercial vehicles? If it is roughly the same as private use, the government would only have to slap on €0.15 per litre and motor tax can be abolished. And the saving in admin costs is a bonus! That's a low enough figure to convince a lot of people, I'd have thought!

http://www.cso.ie/px/sei/Dialog/varval.asp?ma=sei06&ti=Fuel+Consumption+%28ktoe%29+by+Sector,+Year+and+Fuel+Type&path=../DATABASE/SEI/Energy%20Balance%20Statistics/&lang=1

"Transport- sum of all road transport
Sum of all petroleum products 3,394,000 tonnes" ~=20c/litre

However, business would not like the extra tax.

Repolho

21,500 miles per annum @ 55mpg = 1,775 litres. €445 road tax = €0.25 per litre increase in diesel for me.

Interestingly, I usually put about 50 litres per week into car so this would work out at €12.50 per week extra x 48 weeks per year (allowing for holidays etc) and the annual total comes to €600 or €155 more than my tax. Alot of rounding I suppose.

galwaytt

Anan1 wrote: »

... a side effect of this would be a steep rise in the value of older large-engined cars and a fall in values for post-08 tax specials. Still works for me, though!

unkel wrote: »

They will go up in value alright, but maybe not as steep as we think. ....Bring it on

I live in hope. Twice.... :rolleyes:

Vertakill wrote: »

It is funny though that, ....

Funny Ha-Ha, or Funny........whatever.

Me ? I'm not laughin'.........:mad:

btw

Sobanek

If the roads are going to be in the condition they're in, I'm not going to be bothered to pay Motor Tax and drive a car anyway.

Voodoomelon

That 50c a litre can't be right, as Victor and Unkel are pointing out. I don't know how much i'd save, but im sure I could stomach over €2 a litre and still save money.

Victor

Chippy01 wrote: »

I think they done this already? Didn't they?
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but around 1978/79 'road tax' was 'abolished' (for want of a better word), and fuel prices were increased to make up for the 'road tax'.
To keep an eye on the amount of vehicles on the road, a £5 registration fee was also introduced. This very quickly went up to £10, and then £20.
Then the name was changed to Motor Tax, and a 'new' system was introduced. Your 'motor' would be taxed on it's size. Sounds familiar?
All this happened over a number of years/elections/budgets, etc, but not one penny of the originally added 'road tax' that went on fuel was taken back off again.

As I said, please correct me if I'm wrong.......

I think it might be more nuanced than that, but thats the essence. Haughey abolished a bunch of taxes in 1979 to win the election. This, combined with the oil shock from the Iranian Revolution put the government into a spiral of debt in the 1980s.

So much so, that in the in 1987 election camapign (plus ca change ...) FF were complaining about the FG manifesto and that unemployment was at 250,000. FF got back into power and implemented the FG manifesto.

vibe666 wrote: »

road tax is supposed to (afaik) cover the cost of maintaining the roads for road users, so a system that is a direct tax based on how much you use the roads sounds ideal.

Not quite. Motor tax goes into the Local Government Fund, which pays for a big chunk of all local government services. That, said, motor tax will be about €900m this year, but we will spend €1,500m on roads.

There is also a good reason to discourage excessive fuel use.

seamus wrote: »

Well in reality you would allow all commercials to claim a certain % of fuel expenses back from Revenue to offset any increase in costs. Sure all hauliers and taxis can write off their fuel bill against their tax bill as it is right? So it will work exactly the same for them.

Not quite, any extra separate expense or tax would reduce net profits. So if a firm was paying an extra €10,000 if fuel taxes, net profits would likely drop by €4,000-€6,000 - dependent of course on how much tax (corporation tax, income tax, PRSI, etc.) was payable in the first place.

antodeco

I get just under 2 weeks out of a 60litre tank. An added 50c would be an additional €30 per tank. This would mean it would be the guts of €800 per year. Which is more than my current tax.

Also on my mini, I pay €48 a year tax. I'm happy to pay that!

Voodoomelon

Voodoomelon wrote: »

That 50c a litre can't be right, as Victor and Unkel are pointing out. I don't know how much i'd save, but im sure I could stomach over €2 a litre and still save money.

If you were doing 30,000 miles a year in a new 520d you'd be disgusted at €0.50 on a litre instead of motor tax.

thewintermute

RoverJames wrote: »

If you were doing 30,000 miles a year in a new 520d you'd be disgusted at €0.50 on a litre instead of motor tax.

I use 50 litres per week just to get to work and back, tax on fuel would just be like taxing me for having a job that is far from where I live. I don't have a public transport option and it's not like I can move closer to Dublin. a 50c hike would hit me for 1300 per annum, slightly more than double the road fund licence I currently pay. So, sure I use the road more, but it isn't like I have a choice. I think it's a good idea to put the tax at the pump, but maybe a reasonable amount? 20c - ish maybe? As it stands I'm doing 100kph in the slow lane all the way to save a few bob and using a motorbike once the weather allows.

vibe666

i actually don't mind effectively paying more road tax for using more fuel because its a fair way to do it and it means that the people using the roads and/or polluting the most pay the most tax for doing so and visa versa.

if nothing else, i could afford to run a second car with a smaller engine for commuting, rather than just trying on one big engined car all the time and the less economical motor would then just get used for fun.

i still think there needs to be some kind of rebate scheme in place for commercial users to reclaim the extra tax they would pay, but not because they should just because they wouldn't accept the change without and we'd likely end up with lorries parked on all our motorways protesting against it.

maybe even have anyone with a commercially taxed vehicle have a fuel card linked to the vehicle registration that entitles them to fuel up and just pay less tax directly at the pump compared to private vehicles, just to offset the difference between the current commercial tax system and the new fuel use based one.

think what sort of reaction you'd get from commercial users now if you just abolished commercial tax and made them pay the same as private users instead.

Voodoomelon

thewintermute wrote: »

I use 50 litres per week just to get to work and back, tax on fuel would just be like taxing me for having a job that is far from where I live. I don't have a public transport option and it's not like I can move closer to Dublin. a 50c hike would hit me for 1300 per annum, slightly more than double the road fund licence I currently pay. So, sure I use the road more, but it isn't like I have a choice. I think it's a good idea to put the tax at the pump, but maybe a reasonable amount? 20c - ish maybe? As it stands I'm doing 100kph in the slow lane all the way to save a few bob and using a motorbike once the weather allows.

Franky, i couldn't give two hoots how much more you pay, because you should be paying it. If you do 40MPG, based your figures you're doing 23000 miles a year.

I'm doing 6-7000 miles a year and i'm paying €1204! I'm paying your motor tax as it is, subsidising your commute to work, your trips around town and trips down to the shop. And the worse thing is, I have a feeling you don't have a newer C02 based car, the unfairness level multiples many times more with those yokes.

Victor

antodeco wrote: »

An added 50c

The calculatiosn above suggest an extra 20-30c/litre.