Subsoiling, pan busting or spiking

reilig

Have you done any of the above and if so did you get good results?

Which would you recommend buying under a tight budget for personal use??

Its something that I have promised myself that i will try out this year. May just rent a machine for a few days, but may also buy something between myself and 2 relatives if it came at the right price.

pajero12

Before we did our disking last year we got a lad to pull a subsoiler on one of the fields as a comparison! It did a great job, was much easier harrowed than the one that hadn't been run on with the subsoiler! This was a sow though! 8ft with 3 rows of tines about a foot long! Put a fair pull on a 150+ hp tractor!

Muckit

Done some Subsoiling last year. Got 15acres done with a contractor and another 8acres I did myself before reseeding with a borrowed machine from a retired neighbour who was into tillage.

Both machines were a 'no frills' single leg subsoiler.

What did I think...? Wel it definitely makes big a difference. There's no denying that. I'm sorry now I didn't take photos before and after. One of the fields was very badly routed up from contractor spreading slurry, was holding water and growing plenty of rushes and moss this time last year. After subsoiling, chain harrowing and spraying you wouldn't think it was the same field.

I think it'I soon be seen as being an annual job that all farmers will have to do, what with the bad weather, heavier and heavier contractor machinery being used, not to mention the price of fertiliser.

Dozer1

Picked up a subsoiler on ebay in the UK there a year and a half ago, fine soild machine and ideal for our muddy ground, single leg so slow enough but we're only pulling it on a 70hp tractor and it works fine. After the last few wet years it made a big difference as it helped drain the ground fairly well and saved bringing in a digger etc.

Hope to do most of the farm with it every 3 years to keep the ground as dry as possible.

hedgecutting eddie

was told when sub soiling if there not dust coming off it dont do it, needs to b very dry to get the right results!!

pakalasa

I was told that before by someone who did some subsoiling on their farm - that is, conditions should be as dry as possible.

jeff greene

+1

Needs to be dry to shatter, I was told to dig some holes to see if soil is compacted, also watch out for old stone field drains, my neighbour did more harm than good when he broke some of them

reilig

Thanks for the info lads. Are they just the ordinary run of the mill subsoilers that ye are using or is anyone using a pan buster? At Eur9000 one of those sprung pan busters is out of my league. Do you think that one of them would do a much better job than an ordinary run of the mill subsoiler or are they just the latest trend?? Has your subsoiler got a cutting disc or is is just a basic 1 or 2 leg model (looking at a 2 leg model ourselves - 100hp should be enough to pull it)?? Looking at getting a model with removeable legs so that I can get a mole plough leg for it and do some mole ploughing with a single leg also.

ihatetractors

hedgecutting eddie wrote: »

was told when sub soiling if there not dust coming off it dont do it, needs to b very dry to get the right results!!

Any advice we ever got is do it when ground is dry, not over as you don't get the same shatter effect instead you get a good shatter around the machine but formation of large clods as you move away. Do it in the wet and ya do more damage than good.

Bit like some lads say you should go deep as you can, sher no point when your working half a foot below where it's needed only burning more diesel.

Generlay do headlands every 4-5 years and in a wet year pull out the tramlines aswel. Its a great job if your sowin rape seed aswel

5live

I did 8 acres last year with a 3 leg subsoiler pulled by a 125hp case. First job done by the machine by a local lad and it broke our hearts. It kept shearing shearbolts on the middle leg so we left it up and did just 2 legs. A great job but lots of stones pulled up and had to roll it again after. Lots of red iron pans broken up and it is pure pleasure looking at it now. Definately a job for silage fields every few years IMO

aristo

Had both aerator and panbuster here, never saw any great results from the aerator, and the panbuster was used at any chance available worked wonders on the heavy clay here after maize and beet, nothing will make a tractor drink diesel like one though,
3 new shin pieces and 6 wings cost about €400, they are not cheap to run, had a coopers 3 leg, swivel legs will save shearing bolts a little bit too and alot easier to use in the field,
mccord machinery and douglas hamilton have a few for sale up north at the min and i was in johnstons in longford a few very basic homemade subsoilers there for sale too,

Agri contractor

We have a 3 leg spaldings subsoiler with about 8 years. We only sub soil in dry weather and only to a depth to break the pan, you should see the brown soil when you lift the subsoiler. We often go in after ploughing especially in maize ground.

pakalasa

Similar discussion on UK forum;
http://farmingforum.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=12279

st1979

Last winter i made my own moledrainer/subsoiler after the autumn before doing a bit of land with a borrowed single leg O'Keefe. I am on macamore land which is 3-6 inches of topsoil over marl clay. I think it does a great job to fields but you won't always get to use it every year as its hard to get it dry enough for the subsoiler in a wet summer. We have very few stones to worry about. The O'keefe was made so strong that there is no shearbolt it will just stop the tractor and either conk out or spin. I done the same on mine. Mine has a disc off an old plough running in front of an adjustable leg which is made of 10"x40"x1" cutting edge that is used for digger buckets as this is very hard wearing and not too dear i think around 100 euro and then on the bottom i welded a 4"x20" bar that i cut to a point and then on the back of that i put a spaldings expander i think its 5". In total it cost around 350 for the steel to make it. This year i will get another piece of blade and weld wings on it to make a subsoiler.
Moling at 18" will takes a fair pull on 120hp tractor in my soil. Subsoiling at 12" is way to easy with 1 leg and a bit slow but i wouldn't want to spend much money on the job either. Can leave the field a bit bumpy so was thinking for subsoiling towing a landroller behind

Muckit

5live wrote: »

It kept shearing shearbolts

Had same experience :mad: But with the single leg. Twas a bit*ch cos land has fair few stones and it's not as easy as chainging shearbolts in a topper, the 'persuader' is needed:D The mole plough was old too so used 3/4" bolts, not 19mm:rolleyes: Your average hardware don't stock em. Got em in Colm Steel in athlone in the end (few hrs gone driving).

I'I be looking to buy one too, but I haven't seen any manufacturer making a one that's self setting (ie doesn't use shear bolts) rather spring loaded with the hydraulic damper. Now they would be the business for any farmer.

Muckit

reilig wrote: »

Has your subsoiler got a cutting disc

The one I borrowed off neighbour didn't. When I asked him, he said it had one, but that he couldn't keep one on it, cos the first stone you hit, it'I warp:mad:

But use it on recently cut silage ground or straight after a tight grazing, and there is no real need for one. If you've alot of stones it's going to leave the ground a little rough anyway. Plus if using a single leg, you'I be driving over your first pass with the wheel when doing your next run

Nutcase

Whats the difference between a pan buster and a subsoiler??

The Nutty M

I done 6 acres of ours with a mole plough/ripper at 20inches last spring.it worked wonders.The ripper is useless in boggy ground,the channel only closes in afterwards.As long as the ground is dry the ripper will work.
No problem pulling it with 120hp.

The Nutty M

Muckit wrote: »

The one I borrowed off neighbour didn't. When I asked him, he said it had one, but that he couldn't keep one on it, cos the first stone you hit, it'I warp:mad:

Had he the stabilisers locked or something?The disc is a great job,no problems with it hitting stones and warping,and we have lots of them here:)

MfMan

To recap a bit, do people here use subsoilers on silage ground? If so, would it not leave the surface rutted and bumpy? Had a lad in August 2009 with a McConnel shakerator [pto driven yoke], when land was well soaked after a few wet years, to alleviate a few wet patches here and there in fields where the rain tended to lodge. Worked absolute wonders but left the field well bumpy afterwards and rolling wasn't able to smooth out fully. Wouldn't fancy doing a whole field unless tilling subsequently.

Would a subsoiler work on boggy, peaty soil? Have a few well rushy fields that may benefit from getting a run.

Muckit

MfMan wrote: »

To recap a bit, do people here use subsoilers on silage ground?
Would a subsoiler work on boggy, peaty soil?

To answer your first question, it depends on your soil and ground. If it stoney and your using a machine that is based on shearbolts of course the groung will be a little rough after. The 'panbuster' machine (3-4 legs with auto reset) with the roller behind seems to leave the ground lovely behind it from what I've seen of a field I passed with it done.

The boggy soil, that jury is out for me. I've a piece of land that goes down to the bog that I subsoiled before reseeding last sept and it's a bit waterlogged now It's lovely and green and the rest of the field is fine though

aristo

Nutcase wrote: »

Whats the difference between a pan buster and a subsoiler??

Shatter wings to give a greater uplift

F.D

I notice no one has given any experiences of the spiking? aerating i presume i would of thought a lot of the compaction could be nearer the surface, its something i would like to try sometime its like the top couple inches are holding the water in some of our land and its dry below if you know what i mean,
It would be handy if you could get 2 subsoiling legs fitted to an aerator and get the best of both worlds even with a few spring tines behind that to rip out the dead grass

reilig

F.D wrote: »

I notice no one has given any experiences of the spiking? aerating i presume i would of thought a lot of the compaction could be nearer the surface, its something i would like to try sometime its like the top couple inches are holding the water in some of our land and its dry below if you know what i mean,
It would be handy if you could get 2 subsoiling legs fitted to an aerator and get the best of both worlds even with a few spring tines behind that to rip out the dead grass

Go to 2 minutes into the video - all you could ever wish for

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8l8JAG_sJWA

F.D

reilig wrote: »

Go to 2 minutes into the video - all you could ever wish for

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8l8JAG_sJWA

Looks the job alright, all you'd need is the cash ! the tractors up front didn't look overly big either which is a plus

jeff greene

It depends on your soil and level of poaching etc but I thing a hard frost or drought sorts alot out naturally, increasing OM will encourage earthworm who will do wonders for the soil

Muckit

jeff greene wrote: »

OM

OM? Organic matter? Would slurry be considered this or is it just farmyard manure?

reilig

Well lads,

3 of us bought a subsoiler between us at the weekend.
Its a Bench, twin leg model with depth wheels.
It has 2 complete new legs (cost €180 each).

We bought it for €900. (€300 each)

Will let you know later in the year as to how it performs.
Hopefully it will relieve a lot of the compacted ground that we have.

vincenzolorenzo

I did this on a field at home last year and it worked out fantastic, way better than we expected. Basically there was one field that always held a bit of water over the winter, certainly as far back as I can remember anyway. Then when the really wet weather came in Nov 09 there was probably the guts of 2 acres submerged so some work was long overdue.

I got a loan of a shake-aerator from a local tillage man (this day last year in fact). Basically it was a 5 leg sub-soiler with a PTO drive to a vibrating unit in the middle so that the whole thing shook when in the ground (drove it with a JD 6910). He told me the day I got it that the ground wasn't dry enough but i said i'd chance it anyway. There was no cutting disc in front of the leg so it did tend to pull and rip the sod a bit.

Took a couple of hours to do the whole field (~4acres) and a few other bits that had been holding water. Came along the next day with a light roller and it just closed in the ridges left by the subsoiler legs, not heavy enough to pack in the ground. I was very interested to see how it would turn out this winter when the rain came and it stayed bone dry, not a drop of water held anywhere on it. Made silage on it last summer and it turned out the finest. You can still see the lines on the ground after the shake-aerator but all in all we were very pleased with the job.

Summary: Used a shake-aerator on grassland, worked out very well!

Muckit

best of luck with the subsoiler Reilig

I'd be interested to see how you get on with the twin leg behind your tractor. They're a yoke I wouldn't mind getting my hands on. You should have no bother pullin' her I'd say

Takes an age to do a field with the single leg, double better if you've a tractor up to it

Now just fill the toolbox with shearbolts, spanners and a lump hammer and your ready for business You waiting til after you cut silage or you doing it on grazing?

Could you stick up a pic of it?

reilig

Muckit wrote: »

best of luck with the subsoiler Reilig

I'd be interested to see how you get on with the twin leg behind your tractor. They're a yoke I wouldn't mind getting my hands on. You should have no bother pullin' her I'd say

Takes an age to do a field with the single leg, double better if you've a tractor up to it

Now just fill the toolbox with shearbolts, spanners and a lump hammer and your ready for business You waiting til after you cut silage or you doing it on grazing?

Could you stick up a pic of it?

Its coming over from the UK on a truck next week so I'll throw up a picture of it when I get it. Any I looked at over here were just pieces of welded together junk, or if it was in decent shape, they wanted upwards of €2k for them. Had a friend over there at the weekend and he did the deal for me which included shipping.

The tractor should be welll able to handle it - I won't be going too deep with it as I son't have to go deep to meet the pan.
I'll test it out on grazing first and do the silage ground in July. I have some boggy fields too that I'm interested in testing it out on - its raised bog rather than cut away, so hopefully it will do a good job on that too!!

jeff greene

vincenzolorenzo wrote: »

I did this on a field at home last year and it worked out fantastic, way better than we expected. Basically there was one field that always held a bit of water over the winter, certainly as far back as I can remember anyway. Then when the really wet weather came in Nov 09 there was probably the guts of 2 acres submerged so some work was long overdue.

I got a loan of a shake-aerator from a local tillage man (this day last year in fact). Basically it was a 5 leg sub-soiler with a PTO drive to a vibrating unit in the middle so that the whole thing shook when in the ground (drove it with a JD 6910). He told me the day I got it that the ground wasn't dry enough but i said i'd chance it anyway. There was no cutting disc in front of the leg so it did tend to pull and rip the sod a bit.

Took a couple of hours to do the whole field (~4acres) and a few other bits that had been holding water. Came along the next day with a light roller and it just closed in the ridges left by the subsoiler legs, not heavy enough to pack in the ground. I was very interested to see how it would turn out this winter when the rain came and it stayed bone dry, not a drop of water held anywhere on it. Made silage on it last summer and it turned out the finest. You can still see the lines on the ground after the shake-aerator but all in all we were very pleased with the job.

Summary: Used a shake-aerator on grassland, worked out very well!

A two leg grassland version new is £5,500 by Alexander Mills in the North, are the vibrations helpful, how big are they? 18770.jpg

vincenzolorenzo

Thats a smaller grassland version of the one I used last year. It would be a great job though. Having the cutting disc in front of the leg would be a far better job as it wouldn't drag the sod, and then the built in roller would level over afterwards. Very expensive though. The one i got was for opening up tramlines before ploughing, so was a bit rough on grass

reilig

jeff greene wrote: »

A two leg grassland version new is £5,500 by Alexander Mills in the North, are the vibrations helpful, how big are they? 18770.jpg

Be careful if you're going to buy off him. remember, It will be + VAT and make sure that you do the deal in Sterling - he will try to push you for to do it in Euro but he won't be very favourable with the exchange rate.

You might even buy a 3 or 4 leg panbuster down south at that price. There are several companies making them now.

aristo

New shakaerator legs are about €180 plus vat and €11 for the point so could be made up to a 3 leg cheaply, they're alot easier pulled with the pto on and when used in dry conditions it will form cracks well under the bottom of the point from the vibrations so no need to be burying it as deep.

Muckit

aristo wrote: »

New shakaerator legs are about €180 plus vat and €11 for the point so could be made up to a 3 leg cheaply, they're alot easier pulled with the pto on and when used in dry conditions it will form cracks well under the bottom of the point from the vibrations so no need to be burying it as deep.

Is it the frame or the individual legs that shake.
Just wondering if they'd be hard on a tractor's backend and lift arms
You make a good point aristo about them being easier to pull. When you think about it it's like trying to drill a hole in a wall with an ordinary drill or with an SDS, no comparsion

massey woman

reilig wrote: »

Be careful if you're going to buy off him. remember, It will be + VAT and make sure that you do the deal in Sterling - he will try to push you for to do it in Euro but he won't be very favourable with the exchange rate.

You might even buy a 3 or 4 leg panbuster down south at that price. There are several companies making them now.

Interesting Reilig one of these is on my wish list in a while
I had decided on the aerator made by erth engineering and sold by a company in Boyle-at least they were nearby in case of difficulty-but I will wait now and see how you get on, sounds promising ,dont think I can do much more drainage on this Leitrim soil!

reilig

massey woman wrote: »

Interesting Reilig one of these is on my wish list in a while
I had decided on the aerator made by erth engineering and sold by a company in Boyle-at least they were nearby in case of difficulty-but I will wait now and see how you get on, sounds promising ,dont think I can do much more drainage on this Leitrim soil!

I've looked at moreway's pan buster too Massey Woman. €10k is a hell of a lot of money to invest in something like that unless you were going to go out on hire with it.

I said I'd take my chance on the subsoiler. Hopefully it will work. If it doesn't, I'll convert it into a mole plough.

vincenzolorenzo

Muckit wrote: »

Is it the frame or the individual legs that shake.
Just wondering if they'd be hard on a tractor's backend and lift arms
You make a good point aristo about them being easier to pull. When you think about it it's like trying to drill a hole in a wall with an ordinary drill or with an SDS, no comparsion

The whole frame vibrates, the frequency depends on what revs you set the PTO to. I kept it at a fairly low speed and the whole tractor did shake along with it. I only used it for a few hours but they guy that owns it probably spends a couple of days a year with it and has done for a long time without any major problems that i've heard of anyway

massey woman

I bought a mole plough nearly 20 years ago and thought Id do the devil and all but the results were not impressive
Went down too deep and brought up too many stones
Hard to control the depth
Used it instead for laying hosing to drinkers
£700 at the time in Doggetts in Slane
Ideally if one could hire the panbuster to see the results then if succesful the €10k cost could be justified by buying in co like you did?
Might ring them and see if there is anyone hiring one out

westlander

There are so many different ones its hard to know which one is the best as they are not long around.

A few makes i've seen are:
erth, kme, soil mate (made by mastek in cavan, same leg as mconnel) to name a few.

And they're all up near 10k. But even if you were to pick one how would you know which one is the best!

massey woman

Thats why were all on here picking each others brains from experience I suppose!

reilig

massey woman wrote: »

I bought a mole plough nearly 20 years ago and thought Id do the devil and all but the results were not impressive
Went down too deep and brought up too many stones
Hard to control the depth
Used it instead for laying hosing to drinkers
£700 at the time in Doggetts in Slane
Ideally if one could hire the panbuster to see the results then if succesful the €10k cost could be justified by buying in co like you did?
Might ring them and see if there is anyone hiring one out

We had a mole plough in the past too and found that it worked well - but we needed to do it every 2 or 3 years for to be able to see a flow of water into the large drains from the "mole hole". Ours was a light enough mole plough and it bent into hoops the first time we used it on a 4wd.

I tried moreway about hiring one of them. It was a no go. They would gladly come out and do a demo for me on my land where I and all my friends and neighbours could look at it. But they weren't keen on me getting my hands on it for a day or 2. They did give me the name of a contractor in Roscommon who would do all my subsoiling for me for €40 an acre with one of their machines.

Muckit

reilig wrote: »

We had a mole plough in the past too and found that it worked well - but we needed to do it every 2 or 3 years for to be able to see a flow of water into the large drains from the "mole hole". Ours was a light enough mole plough and it bent into hoops the first time we used it on a 4wd.
.

Sorry now for being impatient and not waiting to see photos, but is the new machine you've purchased Reilig the same as your old one bar the fact it has 2 legs? Or does it have 'wings' aswel?

reilig

Muckit wrote: »

Sorry now for being impatient and not waiting to see photos, but is the new machine you've purchased Reilig the same as your old one bar the fact it has 2 legs? Or does it have 'wings' aswel?

Hi Muckit,

My mate that bought it for me sent me this picture of it:



As you can see, it is a double leg subsoiler and has depth wheels.
The deal is that the dealer that I'm buying it off will put new wings (shins) and cutters on it before delivery. Paint work isn't great on it, but there's no cracks or welds. Much heavier duty than my old mole plough

Muckit

reilig wrote: »

Paint work isn't great on it, but there's no cracks or welds. Much heavier duty than my old mole plough

It looks a good lump of a yoke alright. Should take plenty of abuse. I see you can adjust the positioning of the legs too... very nice.

If you got it at that money and he's doing all that work for you on it, you've bagged yourself a right bargain I'm jealous.

I personally like to buy machinery without paint, it's usually only a cover up and you've no idea really of the work it's done.

reilig

Muckit wrote: »

It looks a good lump of a yoke alright. Should take plenty of abuse. I see you can adjust the positioning of the legs too... very nice.

If you got it at that money and he's doing all that work for you on it, you've bagged yourself a right bargain I'm jealous.

I personally like to buy machinery without paint, it's usually only a cover up and you've no idea really of the work it's done.

Its off a horticulture / Flower farm. Its been used quite a bit, but with the wearing parts replaced, I'll be happy. If you look closely at the picture, you'll see that it was originally a 3 leg subsoiler and still has a leg holder in the centre - In time, I will buy a mole plough leg for this and I will remove the 2 outer legs. I'm really happy with it. Hopefully I'll be as happy when it arrives

Uggoon

I was reading through the posts, I've a wet farm in Clare but it's stony underneath. I was thinking of buying a subsoiler something simple, a single leg type. Any suggestions ?? I have a 100 HP tractor with good tyres..

greek88

Hi guys i know this is an old thread but hopefully one of you will be well experienced in subsoiling mole ploughing now

Was thinking of getting a single leg subsoiler with wings or making one we have heavy soil some earth onto clay a few inches down and some pete onto clay. we have done drains as well in the land about 5 feet down filled with 2inch stone nearly to the top and our land is sloping between 20-45 degrees.

my question is would subsoiling help me out with the fields travelling them is always an issue and our cows rearly eat out covers because we have to move them on because of damage. we have a case 885xl 2wd would this be powerful enough?
and how deep would i need to go with the subsoiler.literally hit clay in some places a few inches down other areas maybe 12inches and could it damage the drains?

and also would mole ploughing help me? i assume i would have to pull the mole uphill from the dikes at the bottom.

thanks

djmc

I have done a bit of subsoiling the past few years and it works well enough where you have red earth underneath I don't think it will work on clay
If its grey or blue mud you might be better trying a mole plough or drainage of some sort as you won't get the shattering effect from a winged subsoiler on blue clay or mud.

Attie

Used this mole plough last year on about two acres in two separate fields bit of rock about them.
Used a Zetor 8545 to pull it taking over good tyres very little wheel slip, so far looks like it made a good job as the water used to lie in it but no more

https://goo.gl/photos/54kzkh2j4DziRPBx7