A few home truths.......

Trenchman

Hi all.First time poster so be gentle.

I had to register for the site as I cannot believe some of the stuff that is being written about the upcoming election and also the commentary that has been going on about Fianna Fáil. I will state here and now I have no political leanings whatsoever, all I want to hear is some rational,fair-minded debate about the issues affecting us in Ireland today.I appreciate that some people will be spitting tea on their laptops at the naive,positive outlook I have but I genuinely believe in the points I am going to raise below.Anyways,don't be too cruel on me!

Home Truth 1) We as a nation have to take collective responsibility for the situation we find ourselves in. I take no joy in saying that. I have heard many people complaining about the fact that the banks made it too easy for people to get finance, yet very few people apologising or admitting their regret in perhaps being a little greedy/speculative when the boom was at it's height. Let's face it,we all did well from the boom and now that it is gone, we are finding it hard to readjust and as such are looking for someone to blame. Naturally, the sitting government is the target of much of this unease. Which brings me to my next point......

Home Truth 2) I believe most politicians are intrinsically good people who want to serve their constituency and the country well. Regardless of party or political leaning, I believe most(not all)TD's have the interests of the country and it's people at heart. The idea that all TD's,particularly FF TD's,are somehow corrupt to the core and out to just get rich themselves at the countrys expense just does not add up for me. Are there corrupt politicians? Of course there are, but I feel that the vast majority of members of the Oireachtas are honest people.

Home Truth 3) The incoming government will not be able to satisfy what the electorate wants. I think most people are of the opinion that Fine Gael or Labour or whoever is in is somehow going to magically get the whole show running again. They won't. We are talking about a four or a five year slump here guys and it will be merely a matter of just trying to ride it out.

Home Truth 4) Ireland is still a good place to live. In all my years I have never seen such low national self esteem nor such a low opinion of the country from it's citizens. Every other post seems to be 'That's it,I'm on the next plane out of here, this country is f*cked,all politicians are morons.' This is not the case. This is a beautiful, safe and proud place to live. There is an awful lot to be proud of in this country and we should start focussing on the positives rather than unrelentingly concerning ourselves with the negative.We will delay our recovery if we constantly focus on how grim the situation is. I look around this country each morning on my commute to work and I see a lot of good things still going on. And I believe in the strength and determination of the Irish people. And I know that we have faced difficult obstacles before, and overcome them. With some positivity and a reasonable,measured approach to the difficult times ahead, we will overcome them again.......

Zubeneschamali

Trenchman wrote: »

Let's face it,we all did well from the boom

Really? How exactly did we all benefit from the boom?

musicmonky

I cannot believe some of the stuff that is being written about the upcoming election and also the commentary that has been going on about Fianna Fáil.

Point out the "stuff" and "commentary" about Fianna Fail.
Put up valid arguments about Fianna Fail, instead of benign, middle of the road , meaningless waffle. Tell us something we didn't already know.

Tordelback

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Really? How exactly did we all benefit from the boom?

Mmm. I'm interested to hear this too. All I have from the boom is a '98 Fiesta, a tiny house in a rough suburb and about €150K of negative equity that means I can't leave. And I suspect I'm not alone.

3ndahalfof6

We as a nation have to take collective responsibility for the situation we find ourselves in.

IT is this statement which made me throw my head back to bring it forward in Scottish kiss momentum style,

so we are responsible is your view, nuff said

head recoiling for 2nd go

analucija

I agree with most of the written. We tend to blame politicians, bankers and developers like some evil aliens that we have nothing to do with. Politicians were voted in and we were happy to buy houses at crazy prices and with 120% mortgages. Nothing will change until we take responsibility for our own actions.

I remember reading articles in travel sections about trips to New York to shop. Not to do sightseeing, visiting museums or galleries, no why would anybody do that, if you can shop. Money made us stupid.

Btw I'm not Irish but I do live here long enough, have nice big mortgage and work in troubled family business. I lived perfectly comfortable life in my home country and didn't move for financial reasons so my comments are not out of jealousy or resentment.

LeixlipRed

I wonder do you stop to ask the homeless lads on the Halfpenny Bridge about their gains during the boom? But sure, they're partly responsible right?

gbee

Easy to know the OP is retired with a civil service pension, has his house fully paid off, kids already graduated and has his summer hols booked already for this year.

fat__tony

gbee wrote: »

Easy to know the OP is retired with a civil service pension, has his house fully paid off, kids already graduated and has his summer hols booked already for this year.

Agreed.

He/she is seriously disconnected from reality.

Sir Oxman

Hi OP.

I don't know anybody personally who believes whoever is next in govt will wave a magic wand and shower us in eurodust and make it all better.
I seem to remember FG and Kenny in particular, mention it'll probably take a decade to rebuild the country.
And he's probably right.

Most of the population, especially those that fell for the lie (and that's what it was, a lie peddled by FF and most bankers and some developers and most of the media) are paying what they owe as best they can - the majority didn't get involved in thinking they were property magnets buying up apartments in Dubai and Bulgaria and Croatia and Ballymun and Balbriggan.

Lastly, one of the reasons you will be hearing doom and gloom and anger for the next while is there is no perception and realisation of justice and accountability and responsibility in this country and that starts from the top, and until that happens all the happy Mary Robinson/McAleese diaspora/best in the world claptrap won't cut it.

MaceFace

Since the country went into freefall, I don't think I have come across anyone who thinks they contributed in any way to the situation the country is in. Not do they think they are better off in any way than before.

Not the people who went to New York for the weekend, or have the "second home for the pension", or those that took too large a loan from the bank to enjoy or buy a home they couldn't afford, or those that have their back gardens full of toys for the kids, or those with the 50" TVs or spend 80 quid on Sky (cause you just can't be expected to live without the Sky).
Nor those that bought their show room quality house, nor those that were part of any union that profited from huge pay increases, or those that receive pensions or the dole or child welfare.
Nor those with TVs in every room, or two cars in the driveway, Jimmy Choo shoes or their three holidays a year. PS3 AND XBoxes, or DS's for the kids, or DVD player in the car, nor those with iPhones or laptops with high speed internet. Nor those who left with the leaving cert to go into construction and are now on the dole. Nor those who thought it okay to pay 6 quid for a pint or 80 quid for a pair of jeans.
Not even those who voted for FF are to blame.

Yes, there are people who saw very little increase in their standard of living relative to others, but I challenge anyone who lived in the 80's or early 90's to compare the standard of living today to what it was then and say we are worse off.

There are only one group of people I do truely feel sorry for - those that bought their first starter house between 2004 and 2007. These people were constantly told that prices were only ever go up and now they are saddled with large debts that they may never be able to repay.

Anyone who previously owned a house before the boom and decided to spend half a million quid on a three bed semi has only themselves to blame. They should have known better.

Zubeneschamali

To expand on my point a bit: I didn't gain from the boom, and I haven't been too badly hit by the bust. I didn't buy or sell any property, I didn't take out any unusual loans, I didn't make or lose any fortunes.

Saying "We all did it" is very irritating, because no, we didn't, but yes, we are all going to have to pay.

Noreen1

Trenchman wrote: »

Hi all.First time poster so be gentle.

Home Truth 1) We as a nation have to take collective responsibility for the situation we find ourselves in. I take no joy in saying that. I have heard many people complaining about the fact that the banks made it too easy for people to get finance, yet very few people apologising or admitting their regret in perhaps being a little greedy/speculative when the boom was at it's height. Let's face it,we all did well from the boom and now that it is gone, we are finding it hard to readjust and as such are looking for someone to blame. Naturally, the sitting government is the target of much of this unease. Which brings me to my next point.......

I see no earthly reason why I, or anyone else, should take responsibility for Messrs Cowen and Lenihans decision to guarantee the debts of Private Banks, and force the debt onto innocent taxpayers.

I'm tired of all this tripe about "collective" responsibilty. The "greedy" :rolleyes:people who had the temerity to buy a home during the boom have not received any handouts.
Mortgage holders are still responsible for their debts, hence, their "collective" responsibility has not been removed, so far - just that of the Banks, and the major Developers, through NAMA.

I'm quite happy to accept responsibilty for my own actions - but since I didn't rack up debt, through a mortgage, or any other means, and I didn't vote for FF - do tell, pray, how I, or my children, are "collectively" responsible for any of this?

Trenchman wrote: »

Home Truth 2) I believe most politicians are intrinsically good people who want to serve their constituency and the country well. Regardless of party or political leaning, I believe most(not all)TD's have the interests of the country and it's people at heart. The idea that all TD's,particularly FF TD's,are somehow corrupt to the core and out to just get rich themselves at the countrys expense just does not add up for me. Are there corrupt politicians? Of course there are, but I feel that the vast majority of members of the Oireachtas are honest people.

Hmm, have you checked how many politicains have had their expenses claims denied lately?
What about a certain tribunal re: the relationship between planning decisions and political donations?

You're welcome to your idealism. Personally, I don't share it.
The most positive statement I could make there would be "There are still some Politicians who are intrinsically good people.

Trenchman wrote: »

Home Truth 3) The incoming government will not be able to satisfy what the electorate wants. I think most people are of the opinion that Fine Gael or Labour or whoever is in is somehow going to magically get the whole show running again. They won't. We are talking about a four or a five year slump here guys and it will be merely a matter of just trying to ride it out.

You're right there. The incoming Government will not be able to satisfy what the electorate wants, because our debt levels are too high, courtesy of the disastrous decisions of the FF led Government.:(

Unless we can find a way of reducing our Bank debt, it wont be paid off in four or five years, either. In fact, the more a Country is forced to cut household income, the less growth can be achieved.
Low to middle class incomes are bearing the brunt of the cuts. These are the very incomes that our SMEs rely on - the same SMEs that are the backbone of our economy.:mad: Do you see a big red flag waving, yet?

Trenchman wrote: »

Home Truth 4) Ireland is still a good place to live. In all my years I have never seen such low national self esteem nor such a low opinion of the country from it's citizens. Every other post seems to be 'That's it,I'm on the next plane out of here, this country is f*cked,all politicians are morons.' This is not the case. This is a beautiful, safe and proud place to live. There is an awful lot to be proud of in this country and we should start focussing on the positives rather than unrelentingly concerning ourselves with the negative.We will delay our recovery if we constantly focus on how grim the situation is. I look around this country each morning on my commute to work and I see a lot of good things still going on. And I believe in the strength and determination of the Irish people. And I know that we have faced difficult obstacles before, and overcome them. With some positivity and a reasonable,measured approach to the difficult times ahead, we will overcome them again.......

Ireland is still a good place to live, in many ways. Unfortunately, people who are now in the position of having to choose between paying the bills, going to the doctor, or having enough food to eat are unlikely to be grateful that we have a temperate climate, beautiful scenery, a relatively low crime rate, or whatever.
They just want to be able to pay their own bills.

Drumpot

fat__tony wrote: »

Agreed.

He/she is seriously disconnected from reality.

Really ?

The complete poorly formed opinions of people on boards.ie never ceases to amaze me. To presume that if anybody doesnt agree with their sentiment that they must be in a certain bracket (FF supporter or public service worker or just rich) is plain ignorance of the highest order.

I am 32 years of age, never earned more then 30k per annum (been working over 10 years) and I am in serious negative equity struggling to make ends meat.

I never saw any personal direct benefits of the bubble, but I believe in collective responsibility and that anybody who could vote between 97 and 07 has as much responsibility to take for what has happened.

Blaming FF and their supporters does not get rid of the culture within our political structure nor does it make the reforms required possible. If people keep moaning about how FG or Lab will be a welcome change from FF (and make that a huge reason how they vote) , then they will not be pushing for true change, just a mixing up of the existing BS system in place.

I saw or heard nothing from FG or Lab to suggest they would of done things differantly that would of prevented what has happened. The people of Ireland didnt care how their country was being run until the sh*t hit the fan and all of a sudden we actually cared about cronyism, banks dodgy dealings (overcharging etc), accountability and TDs salarys. None of these things were hidden from us and none of them were important while the majority of people were benefiting from the boom. We are the regulators of the politicians and we failed to be prudent when choosing them, just as they did with the banks.

While this in fighting pathetic blame gaming ("well it wasnt my fault") goes on, our country will just limp from year to year with pathetic political parties propped up by irresponsible people who think nothing of accountability because the people of its country feel that everybody else but them is to blame for the state of the country. Until most people start realising that the quickest/best way out of this is by working together and that part of that is accepting responsibility for what has happened, we will only ever have self vested interests grabbing whatever scraps they can get at the expense of anybody else.

nesf

LeixlipRed wrote: »

I wonder do you stop to ask the homeless lads on the Halfpenny Bridge about their gains during the boom? But sure, they're partly responsible right?

Would you prefer to be begging during a boom or a recession? :pac:

eoinbn

Tordelback wrote: »

Mmm. I'm interested to hear this too. All I have from the boom is a '98 Fiesta, a tiny house in a rough suburb and about €150K of negative equity that means I can't leave. And I suspect I'm not alone.

The boom gave you a wage where you could afford to buy a €300k house, hence you benefited. You could of bought an estate 15 years ago with €300k.

I wonder do you stop to ask the homeless lads on the Halfpenny Bridge about their gains during the boom? But sure, they're partly responsible right?

There were homeless people during the boom as well.

The OP has a few valid points. We are all partly to blame, but some more so that others- namely the government and bankers. We can start correcting those mistakes next Friday by voting out every single FF TD.

Zubeneschamali

Drumpot wrote: »

I saw or heard nothing from FG or Lab to suggest they would of done things differantly that would of prevented what has happened.

You weren't paying attention then. Baldy Noonan's 2002 manifesto introduction:

For the past five years we have suffered from a government that has no particular vision at all – other than to cling on to power for as long as it possibly can.
They have no coherent view of the future they want to create for Ireland -- except to wish for more of the same, to hope against hope that the good times will keep on rolling.
Their approach is driven by a fixation of looking after their friends among the rich and powerful – hoping that some of the wealth and privilege they lavish on the top of our society will somehow, willy-nilly, trickle downwards and solve all our problems

Squirm

I have a close friend who was offered a 500k mortgage about 5yrs ago. She and her partner put a deposit on a house and were all but planning the house warming, when the sale fell through. Personal circumstances, at that point, dictated that they postpone buying a house... phew. They look back now and shudder when they think where they would be today had they bought that house. They also admit, readily, that they were shocked when they received the bank's offer, were warned by many people not to take on such a high mortgage "just in case" and were being greedy by accepting it.

I have two friends who decided to travel the world with me four years ago. They both, despite having jobs and being in a great position to save, decided to take out large personal loans (because it was just that easy) and increase their CC limits. They returned, to a recession, no jobs, debt and crippling interest. One of them is still nowhere near sorting it all out and, if anything, is sinking further into debt as the months go by.

So anyway, my point, a lot (not all but a lot) of people do have to admit that they may have made short sighted financial choices when times were good. Fact. I think most people, whatever financial situation they are in now, would struggle to convince me that they didn't enjoy better times duting the Celtic Tiger. Be it a nicer TV, a holiday, whatever... Most people (again, not all), most certainly did benefit at the time and perhaps needs to look back on past purchases with regret.

Finally, the nature of my job and the experiences I have had while visiting other countries and cultures, leads me to whole heartily agree that Ireland is still a good place to live and that a good deal of the people here- on boards.ie- do not appreciate how lucky they are.

Drumpot

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

You weren't paying attention then. Baldy Noonan's 2002 manifesto introduction:

For the past five years we have suffered from a government that has no particular vision at all – other than to cling on to power for as long as it possibly can.
They have no coherent view of the future they want to create for Ireland -- except to wish for more of the same, to hope against hope that the good times will keep on rolling.
Their approach is driven by a fixation of looking after their friends among the rich and powerful – hoping that some of the wealth and privilege they lavish on the top of our society will somehow, willy-nilly, trickle downwards and solve all our problems

And this would of prevented the Property bubble and the collapse of our banks how exactly ? He mentions about the good times and that FF keep thinking they will continue, but there is no mention of how exactly he was going to try to reel in spending or increase regulation.

Have you any quotes from Noonan on the FG councellors who were rezoning land ? Dont remember too many rebel councellors from any parties refusing to rezone land. If land wasnt rezoned for Building, then houses couldnt of been built and the bubble would of certainly been reduced. Thats just one example of how other parties were actively taking part in the bubble. If FG thought we were all going mad, why did their councellors continue to rezone land for property ?

You see, people have to seperate the perceived corruption within FF, from the subsequent collapse of our economy. They are not related (however much people like to link the two). Banks giving out loans willy nilly is not enough to create a bubble. Land has to be rezoned with Planning permission for these properties to be built. It always sickens me to think how easily County councellors have gotten away with responsibility for being a huge player in the bubble.

I dont believe for a second that cronyism or political corruption led us to this juncture. Most of the world went through a recession of sorts and there was always going to be harsh knock on effects to the 2nd most globalised market in the world. The reason our country is fecked and we are going to recover slower then everybody else is because of the problems associated with our banks. Our government was negligent in how they regulated the banks. It wasnt because they were getting backhanders or anything like that, they were simply incompetent and complacent. They presumed that the bubble would never burst (and if it didnt and we got a soft landing they would of been correct).

People need to grow up, educate themselves better and look at what has happened in an objective manner. I dont care if people hate FF or individuals once they have done their homework and worked out the real reasons why we are in this mess (as opposed to the BS populist rantings thrown around boards.ie).

Despite all the evidence contrary to their beliefs, nearly half Americans still think that Sep 11 was an act of treason by their government. They are not all stupid. Its just one of many examples of how humans love to think that there is always some conspiracy, some bond villian, somebody in the backround scheming against the greater good. 9 times out of 10 you will find that its usually incompetence, lack of planning/foresight, negligence or lack of education/understanding of a particular field that leads to these major crisis.

Corruption does existin politics, but I dont believe there is any evidence to prove that it has had a huge bearing on where we find ourselves now.

Zubeneschamali

Drumpot wrote: »

You see, people have to seperate the perceived corruption within FF, from the subsequent collapse of our economy. They are not related

Ah, it's just a coincidence, I see it now.

Funkfield

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

To expand on my point a bit: I didn't gain from the boom, and I haven't been too badly hit by the bust. I didn't buy or sell any property, I didn't take out any unusual loans, I didn't make or lose any fortunes.

Saying "We all did it" is very irritating, because no, we didn't, but yes, we are all going to have to pay.

I agree wholeheardtedly with this. I have heard people make these broad generalisations about how we are all partly to blame, and how we all benefitted from the good times but now must reap what we sowed.

I was not in any way to blame. I had f**k all to sow then, and so I reaped f**k all. I have a lot less now with nothing to show for it.

Admittedly, I am not in debt the way some people are.

But as they say, just because its not your fault does not mean its not your problem.

markesmith

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Really? How exactly did we all benefit from the boom?

You got an internet connection for a start

Jay Walker

I'm pretty sure Zubeneschamali is paying for that service!

Now we all have to bow to the government because we have a basic infrastructure that allows us to have an internet connection??

Sir Oxman

MaceFace wrote: »

Since the country went into freefall, I don't think I have come across anyone who thinks they contributed in any way to the situation the country is in. Not do they think they are better off in any way than before.

Not the people who went to New York for the weekend, or have the "second home for the pension", or those that took too large a loan from the bank to enjoy or buy a home they couldn't afford, or those that have their back gardens full of toys for the kids, or those with the 50" TVs or spend 80 quid on Sky (cause you just can't be expected to live without the Sky).
Nor those that bought their show room quality house, nor those that were part of any union that profited from huge pay increases, or those that receive pensions or the dole or child welfare.
Nor those with TVs in every room, or two cars in the driveway, Jimmy Choo shoes or their three holidays a year. PS3 AND XBoxes, or DS's for the kids, or DVD player in the car, nor those with iPhones or laptops with high speed internet. Nor those who left with the leaving cert to go into construction and are now on the dole. Nor those who thought it okay to pay 6 quid for a pint or 80 quid for a pair of jeans.
Not even those who voted for FF are to blame.

Yes, there are people who saw very little increase in their standard of living relative to others, but I challenge anyone who lived in the 80's or early 90's to compare the standard of living today to what it was then and say we are worse off.

There are only one group of people I do truely feel sorry for - those that bought their first starter house between 2004 and 2007. These people were constantly told that prices were only ever go up and now they are saddled with large debts that they may never be able to repay.

Anyone who previously owned a house before the boom and decided to spend half a million quid on a three bed semi has only themselves to blame. They should have known better.

That's a great list of tv's and games consoles you listed there...

There's the phrase that sums up the whole lie of the past 10 years - a 'starter' home. What the féck is that/was that? A construct of the banks/developers/media/govt to peddle the big lie that the boom could only get boomier as the dishonest top guy had it.
You've perfectly illustrated a major reason why punters fell for it, having wads of easy credit (the EU bowing to Germany's will) with no competent governance of that situation, only an organisation whose sole reason for existence was the holding and keeping of power and patronage.

And this thing of the standard of living is better than 30 years ago - well, yes - that's a given if you measure standard of living by how many xboxes you own.
Things move on, FF's wrecking of the economy doesn't as I clearly remember the last time they did it, 30 odd years ago.

Liam Byrne

@Trenchman : I can categorically state that I am in no way responsible for this mess. I didn't get greedy, didn't overcharge, didn't overborrow and was occasionally snubbed for not buying into the claptrap and objecting to phrases like "property ladder".

I have absolutely no idea how you reckon I am responsible, particularly when - despite my doing things correctly and politicians claiming expenses they're not entitled to - you are prepared to give THEM the benefit of the doubt and not people like me.

@ Maceface : The ONLY thing in your post that applies to me is an iPhone, which I got free from my provider.

Also, as pointed out above, you used the phrase "starter home"; a twisted, sickening variation of the "property ladder" bull**** that people tried to brainwash it. I actually walked out of a bank (and subsequently closed an account there) when I heard them use that "property ladder" phrase to someone who was looking for a loan to buy a home.

So if anyone fell for it it is yourself, as you are still using inappropriate phrases.

And yet, somehow, both of you reckon I am to blame, and reckon it's appropriate that FF screw me in order to pay off the banks and the gamblers who siphoned off billions that they have no intention of paying back.

not even wrong

Trenchman wrote: »

I will state here and now I have no political leanings whatsoever

Liar. You're a transparent shill making apologies for FF.

Home Truth 1) We as a nation have to take collective responsibility for the situation we find ourselves in.

No we don't. I've never voted FF in my life, I didn't take out any huge loans, I didn't buy any houses, I saw the bust coming back in 2005 while the completely unregulated banks were going mad, you're not going to pin your party's lunatic misgovernment on me.

I think most people are of the opinion that Fine Gael or Labour or whoever is in is somehow going to magically get the whole show running again.

Nobody has ever said that, and only an FF shill would try to argue it. We are going to have a very long road to recovery but step one is to destroy FF for once and for all.

Seloth

This thread is making myself and my house mates laugh.
Not Ops post,but the responses.

Mostly so as earlier on today we were discussing how after hours used to be before it regulated all the anti gov/economy posts etc.We joked about how we learned three things about people on boards.ie...They hate religion,Ireland and the Government.(And please dont give me that "Oh people on boards are more liberal crap" as in general many posts and arguments by these so called liberals are very closed minded)

Op Your posts is very good but dont expect too see as you have already many good responses,As interesting some debates can be many posters have a mob mentality and as its the internet(General through out) people are more aggressive and close minded in posts.

I myself was 17 at the end of the boom(Now 19 and in first year college) and have for the most part only known the Celtic tiger life,Being as dubbed by the media a "Celtic Cub".I come from a middle class family so I'm not in either extreme and for the most part while there has been some changes in the standard of living I dont see the extreme affects this has as people here seem to think.This is not the depression,While its the closest we've had to it,by far its not the same,We live in a different world now.

I'm neither promoting Fine Fáil nor am I blaming them but form what I can see most people are just looking for a person to blame,I know this is the fact most people will skip when reading tis but each party had similar plans to FF,expecting only future growth in the economy.The corruption alleged to them is also seen in other partys,the reasons there is that little more compared to others is the fact they were the largest party,Mere numbers.Not rotten to the core as many put it.I've read many a time how even those in ogra FF are apparently "just as bad as those in top".

I know I'm going to get pelted like those before but lads in all fairness open yer eyes a bit.

Also recession occurs naturally every 30 years?Why well after each recession strong government initiatives are put in.After 30 years those people are all but gone,with a younger generation qustioning theses rules and coming into business.These financial rules weaken and more freedom is given to the private sector.The bubble gets bigger and bigger..then pop back into recession and the initiatives get tight again,thus the cycle continues.I didnt put it great and I forget what thi is called but we studied this recently in a politics lecture of mine and I found it quite interesting.While I dont blame individuals I do blame your generations,I dont harbor hate nor to I wish for you to feel guilt.Its society on a global scale hat caused this,Institutions and larger countrys.Dont just blame the Irish politicans and banks(Well do blame the banks more so).

Now bring on the rotten tomatoes.

Caribs

@Drumpot "You see, people have to seperate the perceived corruption within FF, from the subsequent collapse of our economy. They are not related.."

At risk of descending into a slagging match I have to take issue with the above statement in particular. If FF failings including corruption are not linked to the collapse of the economy then what is the point of a government. My view is that a government gives a country direction, creates the environment to encourage growth and uses the revenue that the growth generates for good of society (and I'm not a socialist so support capitalism before I get accused of being a pinko). FF failed spectacularly in managing the economy, I don't doubt for a second we would or could have been insulated from the global downturn but with a modicum of sense from our overpaid politicians we would have been better prepared to deal with the cycle.

That FF and their cronies created an environment that was essentially a pyramid scheme on a country level to their shame and I hope they get what they deserve because I know we are getting it the neck and will continue to do so for years to come.

not even wrong

Seloth wrote: »

The corruption alleged to them is also seen in other partys,the reasons there is that little more compared to others is the fact they were the largest party,Mere numbers.Not rotten to the core as many put it.

Ah, "sure they're all as bad as each other", the last resort of the FF apologist. So tell me, which leader of Fine Gael or Labour stole money that was donated to pay for his terminally ill best friend's medical care? Which FG/Lab TD was caught aiding and abetting tax evasion and was let back into the party afterwards? Which FG/Lab frontbencher perjured himself to smear a political opponent? Which opposition TD got drunk, got into his car and ran over a nurse and didn't even get kicked out of his party?

craigybagel

Nothing annoys me more than this whole "we are all to blame, we should put up and shut up" attitude some people are showing.

I'm 24. The only general election I have been eligable to vote for was 07, when I did not give any preferance at all to FF. I followed the same principle in the council elections, and voted no to Lisbon both times.

I now live in England, having moved over last month because I gave up on ever finding employment in Ireland. I still have a vote, and will be travelling back over on Friday to do so.

I personally, and everyone else of my age, the so called "lost generation", got nothing from the boom but are the ones suffering the most from the bust.

So don't you dare tell me I deserve the punishment!

blue_steel

not even wrong wrote: »

Ah, "sure they're all as bad as each other", the last resort of the FF apologist. So tell me, which leader of Fine Gael or Labour stole money that was donated to pay for his terminally ill best friend's medical care? Which FG/Lab TD was caught aiding and abetting tax evasion and was let back into the party afterwards? Which FG/Lab frontbencher perjured himself to smear a political opponent? Which opposition TD got drunk, got into his car and ran over a nurse and didn't even get kicked out of his party?

+1. I'm no fan of FG but I would take them everytime over FF.
There is something dark and corrupt at the heart of that shower, a greed and a desire for power that goes beyond anything the other parties are capable of. Haughey, Burke, Ahern, Callally... its endemic. It will be a new start for this country if we can eradicate them.

MaceFace

gambiaman wrote: »

That's a great list of tv's and games consoles you listed there...

There's the phrase that sums up the whole lie of the past 10 years - a 'starter' home. What the féck is that/was that? A construct of the banks/developers/media/govt to peddle the big lie that the boom could only get boomier as the dishonest top guy had it.
You've perfectly illustrated a major reason why punters fell for it, having wads of easy credit (the EU bowing to Germany's will) with no competent governance of that situation, only an organisation whose sole reason for existence was the holding and keeping of power and patronage.

And this thing of the standard of living is better than 30 years ago - well, yes - that's a given if you measure standard of living by how many xboxes you own.
Things move on, FF's wrecking of the economy doesn't as I clearly remember the last time they did it, 30 odd years ago.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

@ Maceface : The ONLY thing in your post that applies to me is an iPhone, which I got free from my provider.

Also, as pointed out above, you used the phrase "starter home"; a twisted, sickening variation of the "property ladder" bull**** that people tried to brainwash it. I actually walked out of a bank (and subsequently closed an account there) when I heard them use that "property ladder" phrase to someone who was looking for a loan to buy a home.

So if anyone fell for it it is yourself, as you are still using inappropriate phrases.

And yet, somehow, both of you reckon I am to blame, and reckon it's appropriate that FF screw me in order to pay off the banks and the gamblers who siphoned off billions that they have no intention of paying back.

Whether you like it or not, a property ladder does actually exist.
Think of it this way.
The average house in Ireland is "worth" about 220k. There are houses cheaper than this and houses worth many multiples.
People "generally" do not live in the first house they buy for the rest of their lives.
A young couple, who would be on a modest wage at the begging of their career may afford a house that is at the lower end of the scale.
As they build up equity in their home by paying off the mortgage, and they earn better wages by moving up the career ladder (oops, there's another ladder), they can afford a better house - maybe a four bed instead of a two, maybe a larger back garden, maybe in a better neighbourhood, maybe closer to the city.
That is what the property ladder is.

Now, I remember in the early 90's, it was very common for people to buy their first home and it be called "a fixer up'er". It needed a lot of work, but it was cheaper and you built up equity by also doing it up (carpets would be mouldy, windows would be leaking, heating wouldn't work).
The problem was once the boom hit, young couples were buying their "dream homes" and jumping straight up a number of rungs on the ladder and essentially playing a game of poker that they could afford the repayments.

However, young people, with no experience of pre-boom times were constantly told about the soft landing and all they ever knew were prices shooting up by double digits. They bought their starter homes (1 or 2 bed apartments, or houses 100 miles from where they work). They only bought them to build up some equity and afford a better home in a few years time. They didn't realise the problems that were in the banks (very very few people did). These people are stuck in shoebox apartments for the rest of their lives having to raise families. Those are the ones I really feel sorry for.

Fitzerb

MaceFace wrote: »

Since the country went into freefall, I don't think I have come across anyone who thinks they contributed in any way to the situation the country is in. Not do they think they are better off in any way than before.

Not the people who went to New York for the weekend, or have the "second home for the pension", or those that took too large a loan from the bank to enjoy or buy a home they couldn't afford, or those that have their back gardens full of toys for the kids, or those with the 50" TVs or spend 80 quid on Sky (cause you just can't be expected to live without the Sky).
Nor those that bought their show room quality house, nor those that were part of any union that profited from huge pay increases, or those that receive pensions or the dole or child welfare.
Nor those with TVs in every room, or two cars in the driveway, Jimmy Choo shoes or their three holidays a year. PS3 AND XBoxes, or DS's for the kids, or DVD player in the car, nor those with iPhones or laptops with high speed internet. Nor those who left with the leaving cert to go into construction and are now on the dole. Nor those who thought it okay to pay 6 quid for a pint or 80 quid for a pair of jeans.
Not even those who voted for FF are to blame.

Ahh you have no feeling for our celtic tiger cubs. How can they face into this life of austerity without blaming someone else;)

Fitzerb

LeixlipRed wrote: »

I wonder do you stop to ask the homeless lads on the Halfpenny Bridge about their gains during the boom? But sure, they're partly responsible right?

I have to say that on this one I agree. The greatest failure of the Cetic Tiger was not the Banks, the HSE , the Education Dept but the young homeless youths of our Cities.

We should have done more ( me included) to help them off their knees and into some form of stable environment

MaceFace

Fitzerb wrote: »

I have to say that on this one I agree. The greatest failure of the Cetic Tiger was not the Banks, the HSE , the Education Dept but the young homeless youths of our Cities.

We should have done more ( me included) to help them off their knees and into some form of stable environment

I actually knew of a guy who used to walk to Kildare Street, sit down in his wheelchair and spend his day begging. He would get up to 50 quid an hour and then get up and push his chair home.

This was about 10 years ago.

Fitzerb

not even wrong wrote: »

Ah, "sure they're all as bad as each other", the last resort of the FF apologist. So tell me, which leader of Fine Gael or Labour stole money that was donated to pay for his terminally ill best friend's medical care? Which FG/Lab TD was caught aiding and abetting tax evasion and was let back into the party afterwards? Which FG/Lab frontbencher perjured himself to smear a political opponent? Which opposition TD got drunk, got into his car and ran over a nurse and didn't even get kicked out of his party?

Which party was caught paying tax free money to employees under the counter. (FG)

Which FG TD threatened a female Garda that her career prospects would be damaged if she reported him for drunk driving?
Which member of the Labour party was questioned over rent boys in the Phoenix park and is still a member in the Dail
Which former FG member of the current Dail was hand in hand with Ben Dunne?
Which FG minster forced the president of Ireland to resign because of statements he made about the president while drunk.
How far back do you wish to go ?
Drop the blinkers and look 360 degrees. You can get a better view

Fitzerb

MaceFace wrote: »

I actually knew of a guy who used to walk to Kildare Street, sit down in his wheelchair and spend his day begging. He would get up to 50 quid an hour and then get up and push his chair home.

This was about 10 years ago.

Perhaps that may be true and if so fair play to him. However some of the cases of drug crazed teens with no structure is really a sad reflection on our society

Fitzerb

blue_steel wrote: »

+1. I'm no fan of FG but I would take them everytime over FF.
There is something dark and corrupt at the heart of that shower, a greed and a desire for power that goes beyond anything the other parties are capable of. Haughey, Burke, Ahern, Callally... its endemic. It will be a new start for this country if we can eradicate them.

You will tell us next you are voting for SF, who are whiter than white

NewHillel

What makes you think you can tell "Home Truths" to anyone?
Anyway...

Trenchman wrote: »

Home Truth 1) We as a nation have to take collective responsibility for the situation we find ourselves in. I take no joy in saying that. I have heard many people complaining about the fact that the banks made it too easy for people to get finance, yet very few people apologising or admitting their regret in perhaps being a little greedy/speculative when the boom was at it's height. Let's face it,we all did well from the boom and now that it is gone, we are finding it hard to readjust and as such are looking for someone to blame. Naturally, the sitting government is the target of much of this unease. Which brings me to my next point......

Absolute twattle. Some people did extremely well, others did not. Many took foolish risks because they were afraid that they would never be able to afford a house, if they didn't. They were prodded on by the FF Administration, many of whose members had deep interests in the property market.

Trenchman wrote: »

Home Truth 2) I believe most politicians are intrinsically good people who want to serve their constituency and the country well. Regardless of party or political leaning, I believe most(not all)TD's have the interests of the country and it's people at heart. The idea that all TD's,particularly FF TD's,are somehow corrupt to the core and out to just get rich themselves at the countrys expense just does not add up for me. Are there corrupt politicians? Of course there are, but I feel that the vast majority of members of the Oireachtas are honest people.

I believe that most people believe they are good people and mean to do well towards their fellow human beings. However, a culture of entitlement amongst the political class grew to outrageous levels under FF. Human beings being what they are, politicians of all parties acquiesced. However, the main party in power must take responsibility for the culture of greed, and naked self-interest, that permeated the last two governments.

Trenchman wrote: »

Home Truth 3) The incoming government will not be able to satisfy what the electorate wants. I think most people are of the opinion that Fine Gael or Labour or whoever is in is somehow going to magically get the whole show running again. They won't. We are talking about a four or a five year slump here guys and it will be merely a matter of just trying to ride it out.

That is a given.

Trenchman wrote: »

Home Truth 2) Home Truth 4) Ireland is still a good place to live. In all my years I have never seen such low national self esteem nor such a low opinion of the country from it's citizens. Every other post seems to be 'That's it,I'm on the next plane out of here, this country is f*cked,all politicians are morons.' This is not the case. This is a beautiful, safe and proud place to live. There is an awful lot to be proud of in this country and we should start focussing on the positives rather than unrelentingly concerning ourselves with the negative.We will delay our recovery if we constantly focus on how grim the situation is. I look around this country each morning on my commute to work and I see a lot of good things still going on. And I believe in the strength and determination of the Irish people. And I know that we have faced difficult obstacles before, and overcome them. With some positivity and a reasonable,measured approach to the difficult times ahead, we will overcome them again.......

I certainly hope so.

NewHillel

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

You weren't paying attention then. Baldy Noonan's 2002 manifesto introduction:

For the past five years we have suffered from a government that has no particular vision at all – other than to cling on to power for as long as it possibly can.
They have no coherent view of the future they want to create for Ireland -- except to wish for more of the same, to hope against hope that the good times will keep on rolling.
Their approach is driven by a fixation of looking after their friends among the rich and powerful – hoping that some of the wealth and privilege they lavish on the top of our society will somehow, willy-nilly, trickle downwards and solve all our problems

Baldy he might be, but boy did he nail it. If FF had been kicked out then, we wouldn't have the mess we have now.

gbee

eoinbn wrote: »

The boom gave you a wage where you could afford to buy a €300k house, hence you benefited. You could of bought an estate 15 years ago with €300k.

This is a silly point, one could only get houses at this price or above.

This point could be valid if I could have still got my two up two down for €90K but CHOSE then to pay the €300,000 plus ~ but we did NOT have a choice in the matter.

Drumpot

Caribs wrote: »

@Drumpot "You see, people have to seperate the perceived corruption within FF, from the subsequent collapse of our economy. They are not related.."

At risk of descending into a slagging match I have to take issue with the above statement in particular. If FF failings including corruption are not linked to the collapse of the economy then what is the point of a government. My view is that a government gives a country direction, creates the environment to encourage growth and uses the revenue that the growth generates for good of society (and I'm not a socialist so support capitalism before I get accused of being a pinko). FF failed spectacularly in managing the economy, I don't doubt for a second we would or could have been insulated from the global downturn but with a modicum of sense from our overpaid politicians we would have been better prepared to deal with the cycle.

That FF and their cronies created an environment that was essentially a pyramid scheme on a country level to their shame and I hope they get what they deserve because I know we are getting it the neck and will continue to do so for years to come.

You see this is where people struggle to actually debate a particular point and take it up wrong .

I have never said corruption is ok or indeed that it didnt have some role to play in the mismanagement of the country. what I said was that in terms of what were the most important factors in leading us to this situation, the corruption that people keep quoting did very little to collapse the economy. Its a small factor in the catastrophy that unfolded and it is upsetting that it took a very much unrelated action to make people actually care about the corruption within politics.

This does not excuse corruption or suggest that we should ignore it. It serves to highlight the inability of people to stop making emotional comments that take the focus of progressive debate. Not just that, people keep linking a moral corruption that existed long before we were heading for disaster, with the ultimate collapse, which is just misguided anger.

I am all for political reform, but people here need to realise that we will not see it if people keep relating the need for political reform with disasters unrelated to the topic. If the economy did not collapse, people wouldnt give two Sh&ts about the corruption that exists in politics.

Put simply :

• If the banks arent given loads of cheap money from the ECB, they are not in a position to offer loads of mortgages.
• If the banks are regulated properly, they cannot give out 110% mortgages to certain people
• If County Councellors engage in proper prudent planning for rezoning of land then only so many houses can be built.
• If government policy is not hell bent on proppping up a bubble that keeps getting it re-elected, we might not have this bubble.

These are some of the most important factors in our banks collapse and the bursting bubble..

If some TD takes a backhander/favour for anything, they generally do small damage, but not the kind of damage that we have seen in this country in the last 3 years. This does not excuse it, again its used to highlight the fact that people seem to be confused as to what exactly led to this crisis.

Drumpot

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Ah, it's just a coincidence, I see it now.

Please do elaborate on this ridiculously populist belief.

To suggest that corruption with our government led to the collapse of our economy is at best naieve. . That is as polite as I can put it for you my friend .

Drumpot

NewHillel wrote: »

Baldy he might be, but boy did he nail it. If FF had been kicked out then, we wouldn't have the mess we have now.

And FG coucellors did everything to block the rezoning of land for development ?

Please . . some of the stuff written here is hilarious. . For all the anger towards FF supporters, I find it hilariously hypocritical that people allow these kind of pro ABFF comments to be posted unchallenged.

Actions speak way louder then words and while FG were not in power in the government, they were in positions of power to certainly reduce the ability of land to be rezoned for development. They didnt even do that. . Funny how its ok to scrutinise the actions of FF in positions of power, but its "not cool" to actually suggest that other parties in a position could of actually done something. I suppose the phrase "ignorance is bliss" was written for times like these.

The problem is not limited to FF, its the political structure, lack of political accountability, political culture, the political electorate system and the failure of the electorate to vote out inappropriate/innefective/dodgy politicians.

K-9

The property market stalled here in late 06 and not one party mentioned the risk of a property crash, not one.

McDowell mentioned cutting stamp duty and the market stalled. All the main parties proposed cutting stamp duty or other taxes to help first time buyers. None of them called for measures to cool the market, all wanted further tax breaks to fuel the bubble.

So yes, FG and Labour do share some of the blame. They didn't foresee the crash either and proposed policies to reignite the bubble.

hatrickpatrick

Trenchman wrote: »

Hi all.First time poster so be gentle.

I had to register for the site as I cannot believe some of the stuff that is being written about the upcoming election and also the commentary that has been going on about Fianna Fáil. I will state here and now I have no political leanings whatsoever, all I want to hear is some rational,fair-minded debate about the issues affecting us in Ireland today.I appreciate that some people will be spitting tea on their laptops at the naive,positive outlook I have but I genuinely believe in the points I am going to raise below.Anyways,don't be too cruel on me!

Home Truth 1) We as a nation have to take collective responsibility for the situation we find ourselves in.

Economies will always go out of control if regulators don't do their job. That's human nature. It is solely and completely FF's fault that the regulators were de-clawed and the most appalling behind-the-scenes fraud was allowed to take place at every level of our financial system. For that, they must pay the price.

Home Truth 2) I believe most politicians are intrinsically good people who want to serve their constituency and the country well.

L.O.L

Home Truth 3) The incoming government will not be able to satisfy what the electorate wants.

A good portion of the electorate right now want vengeance. Normally I would be above this but in this case it's absolutely warranted. Trash FF to send them a message, "If you f*ck with the Irish people for selfish reasons, you WILL NOT get away with it. Ever."

Home Truth 4) Ireland is still a good place to live. In all my years I have never seen such low national self esteem nor such a low opinion of the country from it's citizens. Every other post seems to be 'That's it,I'm on the next plane out of here, this country is f*cked,all politicians are morons.' This is not the case. This is a beautiful, safe and proud place to live. There is an awful lot to be proud of in this country and we should start focussing on the positives rather than unrelentingly concerning ourselves with the negative.We will delay our recovery if we constantly focus on how grim the situation is. I look around this country each morning on my commute to work and I see a lot of good things still going on. And I believe in the strength and determination of the Irish people. And I know that we have faced difficult obstacles before, and overcome them. With some positivity and a reasonable,measured approach to the difficult times ahead, we will overcome them again.......

This is absolutely true. Pessimism is getting old. I'm hoping the election of a new government will do something to restore confidence. We're talking ourselves into a continuing recession and we need to stop feckin' lamenting the celtic tiger and concentrate instead on reviving it.

Spudmonkey

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Really? How exactly did we all benefit from the boom?

Free third level education, increased wages, increased welfare, increased pensions, increased living standards. Yep we all did terribly.

gbee

Spudmonkey wrote: »

Free third level education, increased wages, increased welfare, increased pensions, increased living standards. Yep we all did terribly.

But it all went along with increased 3rd level registration fees; increased prices; runaway cost of living; increased health insurance; child minding service regulations and astronomical crèche fees.

Vizzy

gbee wrote: »

But it all went along with increased 3rd level registration fees; increased prices; runaway cost of living; increased health insurance; child minding service regulations and astronomical cheche fees.

What are cheche fees ?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Spidermany

gbee wrote: »

This is a silly point, one could only get houses at this price or above.

This point could be valid if I could have still got my two up two down for €90K but CHOSE then to pay the €300,000 plus ~ but we did NOT have a choice in the matter.

You had the choice to buy or not to buy.