A vote for Fine Gael is a vote for Third-Level Fees

Asis

Fine Gael intend to introduce a Graduate Tax, which is just a stealth way of reintroducing third-level fees. It is third-level fees by another name.

While Fine Gael demagogue against the Labour Party as a "high tax party", if Irish people think that a Fine Gael government will not be one for which they have to pay dearly, they are mistaken.

Between the reintroduction of college fees, price increases/job losses resulting from the privatisation of all state owned enterprise, and the privatisation of water provision/water metering, there will be nothing inexpensive about an FG government for Irish people. That's notwithstanding inevitable tax increases and stealth taxes.

Fine Gael's economic far-right bias will accentuate the crippling IMF austerity programme signed up to by FF/Greens.

Anyone but Fine Gael.

professore

In the real world any party has 2 choices .... cuts + tax tax and more tax or default. That is even with compulsory redundancies and further wage cuts in the public sector and slashing spending.

At least FG have said this upfront, the other parties seem to have a magical pot of money hidden somewhere to fund their cloud cuckoo land policies.

We are in the middle of an economic war at the moment.

Anyone but Fine Gael ? So we should vote FF and the Greens back in ? Or the political wing of the trade union movement, Labour ? Protecting the priveleged workers in the economy. Sinn Fein ? People before Profit ? Loony socialists ? Give me a break. By the way I am not mired in civil war politics and always vote based on who I think is best for the country. Currently that seems to be Fine Gael and Fine Gael only.

GSF

Lets keep 3rd level free for the richest families says Labour. If parents pay 2nd level fees to Blackrock, etc why should 3rd level be free?

Victor

Asis wrote: »

A vote for Fine Gael is a vote for Third-Level Fees

\o/

sarumite

I agree with a graduate tax. I can say that my university education has definitely increased my earnings potential. I don't see any reason why I shouldn't contribute towards the cost if that increased earnings potential is realised. Hopefully the graduate tax would go towards the universities themselves which suffer from chronic underfunding. I would also support partial fees. When I was in university too many people didn't take their education seriously since they weren't financially invested in it.

[Jackass]

Says the person finished university..

Suggestion: All posters to GE '11 forum must be a member for at least one month and have over 50 posts? i.e. legitimate contributers?

No canvassing please, no junkmail.

meglome

I see the dirty tricks brigade have picked up as we get closer to the election.

A university education has to be paid for and I don't see why the people who benefited from it shouldn't have to pay something towards it.

Manach

Well, as a mature fee paying student - paying money for a course in my experience does bring home the economic value of attending and passing lectures.

Asis

meglome wrote: »

I see the dirty tricks brigade have picked up as we get closer to the election.

What's "dirty tricks" about pointing out Fine Gael's stated policy?

meglome

Asis wrote: »

What's "dirty tricks" about pointing out Fine Gael's stated policy?

I'm sure your very slanted view of what Fine Gael stand for is being posted for all the right reasons. You couldn't possibly be a supporter of another party and potentially already a registered user on boards.ie. See I took it all back.

Monty Burnz

Well I'd rather pay third level fees if I had a family than have to pay Labour's doubling of FG's tax increases.

Labour can dress this up any way they like but the fact is that they plan to take twice as much money out of our pockets than FG do in order to avoid cuts in public sector salaries or numbers.

Regarding fees - I hate to see them reintroduced, but if it's a choice between that and our universities' standards of education tumbling, then I don't think we have much choice in the matter. You can't run a university without sufficient money - money that presumably Labour would tax off us anyway, and not only those benefitting from university.

Presumably Sinn Fein have some fantasy plan to fund the universities that isn't worth addressing (possibly involving selling Corrib oil to North Korea or something ).

Monty Burnz

Asis wrote: »

While Fine Gael demagogue against the Labour Party as a "high tax party", if Irish people think that a Fine Gael government will not be one for which they have to pay dearly, they are mistaken.

'Demagogue' isn't a verb.

Asis wrote: »

Between the reintroduction of college fees, price increases/job losses resulting from the privatisation of all state owned enterprise, and the privatisation of water provision/water metering, there will be nothing inexpensive about an FG government for Irish people. That's notwithstanding inevitable tax increases and stealth taxes.

As I stated already, this is all very interesting, because all of these sneaky ways that you say FG are going to raise revenue only represent half of what Labour have admitted they are going to take. This might be good news if you are a public sector worker in a non-job (I know the vast majority in the PS are not) but it's bad news if you are anyone else because Labour plan to take money out of your pocket to pay those people - twice what FG reckon they need.

And, as I said before, Sinn Fein don't really merit serious discussion in the area of economics. They have a role to play in Irish politics, but their economic plans are total fantasy I don't think anybody who has looked at them doubts it (e.g. 15 billion euro annual funding deficit). And I don't want Ireland turned into some sort of poverty stricken European Cuba (although I'd enjoy the sun).

Eliot Rosewater

As a university student I believe in third level fees. Universities are terribly under-funded, and this has greatly impacted front-line teaching. The arguments against fees aren't generally convincing. As GSF says, the free fees scheme results in families who could easily pay getting away for nothing. People say "education is a right": so should we get PhDs for free, too? And a loan system doesn't really affect accessibility.

In my opinion the support for free fees is down to a simple desire to get as much for free as you can. Simples. The platitudes like "education is a right" are just designed to cloak the desire and make it sound better. I base this opinion off of much personal experience in university.

Labour's stance on this is just borne out of populism. They have loads of posters around campus reading "Labour: The Only Main Party Against Fees". It's obviously an election ploy.

poker head

sarumite wrote: »

I agree with a graduate tax. I can say that my university education has definitely increased my earnings potential. I don't see any reason why I shouldn't contribute towards the cost if that increased earnings potential is realised. Hopefully the graduate tax would go towards the universities themselves which suffer from chronic underfunding. I would also support partial fees. When I was in university too many people didn't take their education seriously since they weren't financially invested in it.

sorry not putting down or anything.but when youre finished university will you have a job waiting for you?il realy hope you do.maybe youre going over seas if you have the money?but there will be a lot people leaving college, university with a degrees in worthlessness because there wont be meny jobs here and you need money to set youre self up in another country.cant see FG fixing anything any time soon

Sergeant

Third level education is not a right. A degree from an internationally recognised University should be sought for. And paid for.

Spidermany

To obtain my professional qualification I had to attend a private college and therefore paid extremely expensive third level fees. I saw it as an investment in my future and did not believe that it was anyone else's job to pay for it, only mine. Back in my day everyone paid fees for third level education.

Because I made that investment I now expect to earn more than people who did not make a similar investment.

I believe that third level education should be free only for those who can't otherwise afford it. My concern would be how Fine Gael will ensure this.

telekon

Shock horror!!! Another "A Vote for Bla Bla is a Vote for Abortion, Stag Hunting, Trade Unions and now Third Level Fees", amongst others thread... :eek:

Its getting pretty pathetic now at this stage. At least think of some new thread titles if you want to conduct some mindless attack threads...:rolleyes:

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

astrofool

Graduate tax sounds like not a bad idea, though would have to see how it would work for emigration.

The registration fee at €2000 is probably at about the right level that those who attend college, want to attend, and not just attend because it's free, and they've nothing else to do (or want to pretend they're doing something).

Fact is, our third level education system needs funding, lots of funding, and sure as hell, tax receipts can't fill the gap, without making a serious dent in people's pockets.

I certainly wouldn't want to see us going the way of the USA with massive costs for courses, and leaving graduates in massive debt, as someone who is opposed to the idea of education being something that costs money, a graduate tax, with reasonable reg. fee sounds like the least worst option.

On the argument on free fees/low fees, third level graduates will generally pay much more tax over the years than non-graduates, low fees for third level is an investment in a lifetime of income from that person (given that high fees would mean a general decrease in the amount of third level graduates there are available, or worse, we end up paying low-medium skilled workers more due to a dearth of high skilled workers).

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Presumably Sinn Fein have some fantasy plan to fund the universities that isn't worth addressing (possibly involving selling Corrib oil to North Korea or something ).

SF's plan for anything money related = do a bank raid

Bail out a bank? Do a bank raid, claim on insurance.
High unemployment? Employ people for a bank raid.
Low corporate tax? Raid the banks holding the corporations money.
Too many bank raids? Raid the banks of the media so they don't have the money to report on bank raids anymore.

astrofool

poker head wrote: »

sorry not putting down or anything.but when youre finished university will you have a job waiting for you?il realy hope you do.maybe youre going over seas if you have the money?but there will be a lot people leaving college, university with a degrees in worthlessness because there wont be meny jobs here and you need money to set youre self up in another country.cant see FG fixing anything any time soon

I dunno, company I'm working for at the moment has lots of well paid, open positions, for third level graduates, but we're having to cast a wider and wider net due to a lack of technology graduates in Ireland.

poker head

telekon wrote: »

Shock horror!!! Another "A Vote for Bla Bla is a Vote for Abortion, Stag Hunting, Trade Unions and now Third Level Fees", amongst others thread... :eek:

Its getting pretty pathetic now at this stage. At least think of some new thread titles if you want to conduct some mindless attack threads...:rolleyes:

is everyone telling lies or just posting for the fun of it..please point out were the wrong info has been given out about the parties?

telekon

poker head wrote: »

is everyone telling lies or just posting for the fun of it..please point out were the wrong info has been given out about the parties?

Nowhere. Did I say the info was wrong?? No.

Just saying the proliferation of first time posters with an obvious agenda should be construed as spamming.

The lack of imagination in the thread titles also grates. Thats all.

omg a kitty

astrofool wrote: »

SF's plan for anything money related = do a bank raid

Bail out a bank? Do a bank raid, claim on insurance.
High unemployment? Employ people for a bank raid.
Low corporate tax? Raid the banks holding the corporations money.
Too many bank raids? Raid the banks of the media so they don't have the money to report on bank raids anymore.

Well said

Poor Craythur

I'm actually OK with third levels fees being reintroduced, so long as it's done the British way. Third-level education is a privilege, not a right. There should be grants for gifted people from low-income backgrounds though.

sarumite wrote: »

When I was in university too many people didn't take their education seriously since they weren't financially invested in it.

This. In this country a lot of people go just because.

TheDoc

So I came through the CAO, and then five years in college.

When was third level free exactly?

When I failed my first year I was required to pay €2,000 because I was not receiving government funding for a repeat.

Every other eyar I paid €1,600 as "registration fees"

So bless, the government pay €500 and thats your third level fees?

I don't have any sympathy, I watched as everyone who ever got a grant pissed it up against a wall, while I had to work silly hours in part time jobs and be thankful my father worked his arse of doing overtime to help me out.

And then you watch as people just "drop out" or miss class because they arnt arsed or they are hung over.

People receiving grants should be required to graduate, or atleast pass the year, or pay their grant money back.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Can someone explain how the graduate tax would work?

It just sounds like a reason to emigrate. Why can't we just use the same system as the UK. It doesn't stop anyone from going to college as ya don't pay a penny until you're in employment after graduation.

Ok that sounds like graduation tax but its actually a loan which is obviously gonna be paid off and then you're in the same boat as everyone else. Would graduate tax be a lifetime thing or short term?

Poor Craythur

TheDoc wrote: »

I don't have any sympathy, I watched as everyone who ever got a grant pissed it up against a wall, while I had to work silly hours in part time jobs and be thankful my father worked his arse of doing overtime to help me out.

Don't tar us all, my grant went on rent and nothing else. If I squandered my grant money, I would have ended up in rent arrears.

professore

poker head wrote: »

sorry not putting down or anything.but when youre finished university will you have a job waiting for you?il realy hope you do.maybe youre going over seas if you have the money?but there will be a lot people leaving college, university with a degrees in worthlessness because there wont be meny jobs here and you need money to set youre self up in another country.cant see FG fixing anything any time soon

That's why a graduate tax makes more sense than fees. If you don't make any money then you don't pay tax.

Bottle_of_Smoke

professore wrote: »

That's why a graduate tax makes more sense than fees. If you don't make any money then you don't pay tax.

Obviously fees are unfair if you have to pay them upfront. Though look at the UK you only pay them back when earning above 15K(northern Ireland) and 22K(England at newly increased fee level)

syklops

I would be in favour of fees as it might weed a few of the wasters out early. When I was doing the leaving cert, every single person in my year(bar me) applied to the CAO. By christmas about 20% had dropped out. That is a massive strain on the system, and it costs money to process CAO applications and arrange places and generate student numbers and sign off for grants and all the other things that go with it, and with in a short few months large numbers of people have given up on it.

Monty Burnz

Asis, would you like to address the point that Labour plan to take twice as much new money out of the the taxpayers' pockets than FG do because they are not willing to address our PS problem? And perhaps address the point that the fees are not 'free' in any sense, it just means that everybody - even those who never attend college - are forced to pay for it out of their general taxation?

JBnaglfar

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Can someone explain how the graduate tax would work?

It just sounds like a reason to emigrate. Why can't we just use the same system as the UK. It doesn't stop anyone from going to college as ya don't pay a penny until you're in employment after graduation.

Ok that sounds like graduation tax but its actually a loan which is obviously gonna be paid off and then you're in the same boat as everyone else. Would graduate tax be a lifetime thing or short term?

I just had a look at their proposal here. The graduate tax is pp.26-28. I guess my summary would be: abolish any costs while a student is in university (no registration charge), then when the graduate is working after university the tax is collected through PRSI. It costs 30% of the course that was completed, perhaps €10k - €15k, and once that amount is payed the graduate is done with the tax. So yes, it is short term and you do not pay until you are in employment as far as I see.

I am not sure yet how I feel about this tax, but as somebody else posted here it should go to third level institutions who are underfunded. At least FG have included this in their proposal.

Edit: Just noticed that policy document is from 2009. I could not find anything else on Third Level Education, so I presume that it is their current policy.

Bottle_of_Smoke

JBnaglfar wrote: »

I just had a look at their proposal here. The graduate tax is pp.26-28. I guess my summary would be: abolish any costs while a student is in university (no registration charge), then when the graduate is working after university the tax is collected through PRSI. It costs 30% of the course that was completed, perhaps €10k - €15k, and once that amount is payed the graduate is done with the tax. So yes, it is short term and you do not pay until you are in employment as far as I see.

I am not sure yet how I feel about this tax, but as somebody else posted here it should go to third level institutions who are underfunded. At least FG have included this in their proposal.

Edit: Just noticed that policy document is from 2009. I could not find anything else on Third Level Education, so I presume that it is their current policy.

That actually sounds quite reasonable. Be good if they gave an example of what someone earning 25K per annum would have to pay per month for it and for how many years

th3 s1aught3r

Asis wrote: »

Anyone but Fine Gael.

No thanks :pac:

Monty Burnz

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Asis, would you like to address the point that Labour plan to take twice as much new money out of the the taxpayers' pockets than FG do because they are not willing to address our PS problem? And perhaps address the point that the fees are not 'free' in any sense, it just means that everybody - even those who never attend college - are forced to pay for it out of their general taxation?

That's a 'no' then?

Ray Burkes Pension

Personally I reckon the best side effect of graduate tax will be that parents will no longer have to pay for their adult kids registration fees. College fees will change from another thing mammy and daddy pay for to being the future responsibility of the student.

telekon

Ray Burkes Pension wrote: »

Personally I reckon the best side effect of graduate tax will be that parents will no longer have to pay for their adult kids registration fees. College fees will change from another thing mammy and daddy pay for to being the future responsibility of the student.

being forced to learn some responsibility att 17/18, not a bad idea.

Plus I reckon, the course attendance rates would shoot up if they knew they had to pay their fees off with a good job!

astrofool

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

That actually sounds quite reasonable. Be good if they gave an example of what someone earning 25K per annum would have to pay per month for it and for how many years

I'd reckon 5% on top of existing PAYE (so tax credits are included), dropping to 2% after 10 years, then 0% after another 5 "something" like that. People who emigrate get it converted to a loan, or a tax deal is done with the regular countries people emigrate to (e.g. US citizens still pay US tax if they live abroad).

People with 3rd level education should see their wage levels rise significantly after the first 5 years or so, and 25k would be a relatively low starting wage (though not unheard of).

fat__tony

telekon wrote: »

Shock horror!!! Another "A Vote for Bla Bla is a Vote for Abortion, Stag Hunting, Trade Unions and now Third Level Fees", amongst others thread... :eek:

Its getting pretty pathetic now at this stage. At least think of some new thread titles if you want to conduct some mindless attack threads...:rolleyes:

Indeed, maybe its part of FF tactics to get numerous simpletons to post nonsense online without any credible source whatsoever.

Bless them.

munchkin_utd

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

That actually sounds quite reasonable. Be good if they gave an example of what someone earning 25K per annum would have to pay per month for it and for how many years

On the other hand,
is it wrong to ask someone who has (according to a figure on boards elsewhere) an education costing 85grand, earning a minimum of 40 grand starting in the public service, with guaranteed 80 grand after 20 years service, to pay something back of that 85 grand of an education? **

Even non lab subjects like arts cost about 10 grand a year per studen to teach.

Obviously there would be gradated sliding scales, and some or most of the cost written off, but that you get tens of thousands spent on you for nothing strikes me as Bertie Ahern Politics, promise everything and dont do the sums on how you are going to pay for it.


**The job BTW is nursing, which used to be terrible pay, now guaranteed 80 grand a year at the age of 40 something!!
And as for the pension....

Victor

professore wrote: »

That's why a graduate tax makes more sense than fees. If you don't make any money then you don't pay tax.

So, my niece tells me that lots of her class mates just want to graduate and marry someone rich. It's their life plan. Should these people not have to pay anything?

TheDoc

Poor Craythur wrote: »

Don't tar us all, my grant went on rent and nothing else. If I squandered my grant money, I would have ended up in rent arrears.

I'll tell ya, I hear that a lot, but I went to a pretty big college, and know a lot of people in college now or finished.

And those on grants, needed it for everything but essentials. Those who moved up had parents firing money up every week and/or part time jobs.

As they all said themselves, it was a splurge of cash at varying times in the year.

Maybe I'm just bitter, that I watched everyone around me have a brilliant time in college at the tax payers expense where I didn't have an ounce of free time to enjoy the " stereotypical" student/college lifestyle, cause I was too busy working.

Of course not all grant money is wasted, yourself for example a positive case, but its very hard when my eyes where just completely awash with waste.

I'll also share a more personal experience with my girlfriend. I won't go into her personal life, but the essentials are that she is living in a rented council house, elderly unemployed parents (although her father works cash in hand at the risk of his health). Had his third heart attack last year, still working, old school hard as nails working class man looking to provide so his children have a better chance. Seven children, three left in the house, one with a mental disability.

Misses decides after some pushing from me that she should go ahead with the course shes always wanted and apply for a grant, she is a prime candidate and will get well looked after. Fees and reg is €3000 including equipment she needs.

Government provided her €250 in a grant. I was livid and she was heartbroken. No way she could afford to go. So I musted up some pennies had a chat with my bank ( AIB, who during the whole "bankers are ****" were fantastic) and took out a loan to get her into college.

It was only when she was a few weeks in, when she was chatting to some classmates she found out that others in much better of situations were getting fuller grants, she approached her student tutor and the college on her behalf sought out some answers for her.

A week later she received a phone call saying she was getting a substantially larger grant, would keep her social welfare and receive some added benefits for travel expenses. ( She spends 90 minutes on a train and 40 minutes on a bus, a real commute).

Typical though that the social called her telling her she would be getting deducated the €250 initially given, but there was a happy outcome, only after alot of grief, worry and complete misinformation.

Sorry to ramble on with a story probably not even slightly related, but there are ALOT of real problems in our system and alot of exploitation that are never ever explored, the grant scheme for colleges is the one I've had most experience with in life so far ( i wont start on how it took me 5 months to get social welfare to then have to pay it back)

But when you look at what I went through above, basically having to pay another €500, is relatively **** all, I'm sure you'll all get it in grant money anyway ; /

heyjude

A graduate tax wouldn't work, it would just be another reason for a recent graduate to emigrate. With taxes(stealth and otherwise) set to rise here for years to come and with limited employment opportunities, how many graduates would choose to try to stay here, if they were facing another perhaps 5% levy on top of all the other deductions from their wages ?

A student loan scheme would face similar obstacles as unlike other countries that have student loan schemes, we have a long history of emigration and who would want to stay here and pay off a student loan of perhaps 10k or more, when they could go abroad with a clean sheet.

Imagine if a graduate tax or student loan scheme were in place at present, what percentage of this years' graduates do you think would be able to find employment and be happy to stay here now, if they knew that they'd have to make student loan repayments or have graduate tax deductions from their wages ?

syklops

TheDoc wrote: »

I'll tell ya, I hear that a lot, but I went to a pretty big college, and know a lot of people in college now or finished....<snip>

I agree here aswell, the grant system is broken. Children of farmers tend to get the grant automatically, whereas children of self employed dont. I saw this in my own family where my Sister was denied a grant and her friend was approved. It was irrelevant to the department that my dad had not had work in 6 months, and it was irrelevant that the friends father had recently sold a load of re-zoned land, turning him into a multi-millionaire overnight.

So while she works all weekend 3 nights a week while going to college, the friend uses the grant to buy a car and a new wardrobe. If she knew she was going to have to pay the grant back at some point she might have spent the money a little differently, or not spent it at all.