4 reasons why Ireland's roar will return.

Rabble Rabble

Labor market flexibility.
Corporations love low taxes.
The young and educated survive.
Grow out of a bad situation through exports.

From Fortune.

I agree with most of this, if Ireland gets control of it's borrowing it will bounce back. Keep corporation tax low.

From Fortune

ilovesleep

Rabble Rabble wrote: »

Labor market flexibility.
Corporations love low taxes.
The young and educated survive.
Grow out of a bad situation through exports.

From Fortune.

I agree with most of this, if Ireland gets control of it's borrowing it will bounce back. Keep corporation tax low.

From Fortune

And enda kenny is one not to be trusted in relation to corporation tax.

Kristopherus

ilovesleep wrote: »

And enda kenny is one not to be trusted in relation to corporation tax.

And what reason have you for making that mighty assertion?

szjon

Sorry, you are a dreamer.

Have you heard of education inflation?

I've lived and worked in 5 different european countries and I can tell you that the Irish are NOT educated. They can pass exams no problem, that is what they are trained to do. Problem solving?

Don't make me laugh.

The young and educated?


Do you have any idea of the travesty of national belief that fuelled the celtic pussycat? Your kids were taught religion and social studies over science and self education.

Notice the rise of the 'learning to learn' module, (compulsory) at every I.T and uni in Ireland.

This is a module designed to teach the kids how to LEARN, something they didn't learn in school where they were spoon fed the answers to the papers they had to sit. Irish education is about passing. Drilling the answers till you can tick the right box. Learning? My hole! It's as much indoctrination as religion. Employers want problem solvers, not regurgitators.

As for the young, show me someone who understands the importance of science, history, economics or ledership. I'll put up the 99 per cent who think life revolves around facebook and Americas next top model. Obese, lazy, stupid and raised to believe thast Ireland is some wonderful Island that shines a light of intelligence on the world, that nothing can be bad and that they, (individually) can do no wrong in their pursuit of 'the Irish dream'.

Ireland is a PIIG, the debate over its success was finished when we got into the acronyms. (IMF, EU, NAMA etc) this country is a slave to the markets and whatever you believe will rescue us from it is frankly laughable. We are slaves to the debt that was run up by farmers and builders. Suddenly worth millions only to find those millions were owed. Wealth is not borrowed, wealth is wealth. Those who borrowed have been shown for the fools they are/were.

Wealth is intellect or labour. Labour left ireland in the 80s. Intellect was never here.

Corporation tax..


Ha ha. EU might have something to say about that when Irish banks are printing their own money and drawing from the ECB by the bilions. Yes, consider that tax safe at your peril!

Exports.

With inflation rising, those workers are going to need pay rises. What do we have here? Uneducated factory workers demanding higher pay, rising input costs and corporate tax increases coupled with EU interference. (Think we have a say over Germany and France? Think again!) Those factories will be off to eastern europe and asia as quick as they left the US to come here. Cheaper wages, highly educated workforce and taxes that are minimal. Win, Win.

Labour market flexibility.

Only Australian bars, american bars uk bars and german brothels will soak up the Irish this time. Construction is dead. Travel for minimum wages is the new shining light.

Still, It is refreshing to see an optimist in the fields of carnage we used to refer to as the world economy. Luck 'o the Irish to ya!

Amhran Nua

szjon wrote: »

Sorry, you are a dreamer.

Have you heard of education inflation?

I've lived and worked in 5 different european countries and I can tell you that the Irish are NOT educated. They can pass exams no problem, that is what they are trained to do. Problem solving?

Don't make me laugh.

The young and educated?


Do you have any idea of the travesty of national belief that fuelled the celtic pussycat? Your kids were taught religion and social studies over science and self education.

Notice the rise of the 'learning to learn' module, (compulsory) at every I.T and uni in Ireland.

This is a module designed to teach the kids how to LEARN, something they didn't learn in school where they were spoon fed the answers to the papers they had to sit. Irish education is about passing. Drilling the answers till you can tick the right box. Learning? My hole! It's as much indoctrination as religion. Employers want problem solvers, not regurgitators.

As for the young, show me someone who understands the importance of science, history, economics or ledership. I'll put up the 99 per cent who think life revolves around facebook and Americas next top model. Obese, lazy, stupid and raised to believe thast Ireland is some wonderful Island that shines a light of intelligence on the world, that nothing can be bad and that they, (individually) can do no wrong in their pursuit of 'the Irish dream'.

Ireland is a PIIG, the debate over its success was finished when we got into the acronyms. (IMF, EU, NAMA etc) this country is a slave to the markets and whatever you believe will rescue us from it is frankly laughable. We are slaves to the debt that was run up by farmers and builders. Suddenly worth millions only to find those millions were owed. Wealth is not borrowed, wealth is wealth. Those who borrowed have been shown for the fools they are/were.

Wealth is intellect or labour. Labour left ireland in the 80s. Intellect was never here.

Corporation tax..


Ha ha. EU might have something to say about that when Irish banks are printing their own money and drawing from the ECB by the bilions. Yes, consider that tax safe at your peril!

Exports.

With inflation rising, those workers are going to need pay rises. What do we have here? Uneducated factory workers demanding higher pay, rising input costs and corporate tax increases coupled with EU interference. (Think we have a say over Germany and France? Think again!) Those factories will be off to eastern europe and asia as quick as they left the US to come here. Cheaper wages, highly educated workforce and taxes that are minimal. Win, Win.

Labour market flexibility.

Only Australian bars, american bars uk bars and german brothels will soak up the Irish this time. Construction is dead. Travel for minimum wages is the new shining light.

Still, It is refreshing to see an optimist in the fields of carnage we used to refer to as the world economy. Luck 'o the Irish to ya!

Have you a single supported fact to put behind this wide ranging and frankly deranged rant? No? How embarrassing.

tenchi-fan

And reasons it won't.

No reform of the political system.
Welfare recipients & senior civil servants/politicians sucking the wealth from the middle class.
The young and the educated hate high taxes and can emigrate.
Lack of control of monetary policy can hurt exports.

Nody

Rabble Rabble wrote: »

Labor market flexibility.

As long as it is not unionised.

Corporations love low taxes.

True, but there are several competitors cropping up.

The young and educated survive.

They emigrate; the working market is far more fluid esp. for the well educated who can get a job in another country.

Grow out of a bad situation through exports.

Of what exactly? The Irish production worker is not exactly cheap or highly educated vs. say Poland or Romania.

Ireland is in general not exactly scoring as a top location in any index (one top 5, one top 10 in all indexes listed here) either. As you can note it is a collection of various different measures by different groups which reduces the chance of individual bias in a single measure.

szjon

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Have you a single supported fact to put behind this wide ranging and frankly deranged rant? No? How embarrassing.

Yes I do. Do you require them? Really?

Can't see any of this yourself then? Ever travelled? Spoken to a young person lately?

Right now I am looking after my children, I will provide facts later when I have time, I suggest though that you could start by opening your eyes wide and looking around you. It's not pretty.

Amhran Nua

szjon wrote: »

Yes I do. Do you require them? Really?

Can't see any of this yourself then? Ever travelled? Spoken to a young person lately?

Right now I am looking after my children, I will provide facts later when I have time, I suggest though that you could start by opening your eyes wide and looking around you. It's not pretty.

You have facts to support that Irish emigrants are going to German brothels? This should be good.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Amhran Nua

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Again, I'm going to need a source on this.

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Eric Schmidt says otherwise.

Schmidt said that during his time with Sun Microsystems he had a good working relationship with IDA Ireland and said his main motivation to invest as CEO of Google is the Irish workforce.
...
Specifically in relation to Ireland Schmidt said: “We benefit from the production of young people out of universities here, what has happened is the area of Dublin we are located in has become the hot area, a destination for talent.

Permabear wrote: »

Multinationals want the low taxes, yes, but they aren't impressed by Irish graduates—who don't have excellent math or literacy skills, and who struggle with European languages because all of their their prime language-acquisiton years have been wasted on Irish. So, they are setting up in Ireland and then importing better-prepared, multilingual graduates from elsewhere in Europe. Or they are just setting up shell operations through which to funnel profits. None of this addresses the Irish employment crisis.

So the hundreds of thousands of Irish people employed by multinationals are what, pushing around mops? I don't think you realise the amount of high level R&D jobs as well as engineering placements multinationals have brought to Ireland.

What you've done here is to basically blame the Irish language for the country's economic woes. Have a think about what that means for a minute, as far as your perspective on the world goes.

sollar

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

What my son tells me about the time they spend on religion and irish at national school would make you weep. Their teacher is particularly obsessed with teaching them religion.

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I spent 13 years being taught irish at primary and secondary school and only 3 years learning german. I can speak far more german than irish. Something is rotten about the way irish is taught in schools.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

ei.sdraob

more like a "meow" if were lucky


someone was reading DoF's fud and spin or worse "The Best is Yet to come"

Amhran Nua

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Primary level, that's a different issue to the sweeping "Irish students" statement. I agree that there should be an introduction to foreign languages at that level, and indeed that widespread reforms to update curriculms are needed.

Using that as a platform to blame the country's woes on Irish must surely strike you as a bit over the top, to put it mildly.

Permabear wrote: »

You are aware that employing people in Ireland is not the same thing as employing Irish people in Ireland? Google's headquarters in Ireland in fact employs people from over 60 countries, and has been described by Google itself as "like the United Nations."

I know, it was in the article I linked. Schmidt made comments specifically in relation to Ireland, and these are the ones I highlighted.

Besides, unless you have inside information about the percentage of Google's employees in Ireland who are not from Ireland, you're making some wild assumptions there. It could be less than 10%, and probably is, and that comment could still be justified.

Also, there is the point that taxes paid by Google employees and wages earned and spent by Google employees do create Irish jobs on top of that, due to the multiplier effect.

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

The way you put it you'd swear no Irish person speaks a word outside of English. I'd bet that paypal finds every employee it's looking for, and most of them will be Irish too.

barongreen

szjon wrote: »

Yes I do. Do you require them? Really?

Can't see any of this yourself then? Ever travelled? Spoken to a young person lately?

Right now I am looking after my children, I will provide facts later when I have time, I suggest though that you could start by opening your eyes wide and looking around you. It's not pretty.

Embittered by your situation i think, and is traveling that enlightening? really?

hatrickpatrick

Posting optimism and good news on Boards.ie?
Prepare to be attacked and ridiculed by the exceedingly vocal "we're all f*cked, suicide is your only option" brigade.

Incidentally, the only way this economy recovers is through consumer confidence. And the only way consumer confidence recovers is if people STOP with all the frankly ludicrous doomsday scenarios.

Ireland isn't the first country to be in this position, it's not the only country to be in it now, and it will not be the last. Our economy drops back to 2001 levels? NEWSFLASH: 2001 wasn't a f*cking famine!!!!!

We're going to have a few nasty years due to the incompetence of bailing out private banks which should have been allowed to die like any company which screws up.

What are we NOT going to have?
We're NOT going to have an entire decade of misery.
We're NOT going to become a third, or even second world nation.
We're NOT going to have a military coup. (This one made me LOL)
We're NOT going to lose every young person out of this country, and
We're NOT going to remain in this recession for much longer.

All of the above are threatened by the gloom brigade. The economy won't recover until money starts moving in it. Money won't start moving until people start spending it. No one is going to spend a single cent if every corner of the media is telling them that next year they won't have a penny to their name.

Yes it's going to be hard for 2 or 3 years. But it's not the great famine. It's not civil war. It's not the troubles. It's not the 80s.

CHEER THE F*CK UP, OR WE REALLY WON'T RECOVER.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

RichardAnd

I'm inclined to agree with Szjon. The education system in this country rewards following rules and memorising off data (regardless of worth). True innovation frightens the hell out of many Irish people and children who are creative, talented or otherwise gifted often don't do well in school here.

But of course, I've never been much of a believer in formal education. I have my degree but it's just a piece of paper that proves I spend 4 years studying material of little use to me. My real skill and knowledge came from reading, research and my own private study on my own time. I never studies history in college but I can hold a conversation with a historian on certain subject easily. I never studied music but I have professional playing abilities. I never studies English but I wrote a novel and my reading mater is far, far beyond the nonsense my peers read (twilight, Harry Potter etc).

Am I saying this to aggrandise myself? No. I am nothing special but what I know and what I've learned came from working hard to improve myself when others of my generation hit the p!ss or sat in front of the TV. Today, with the internet, a person has access to virtually all human knowledge, that is an incredible gift for a generation yet it seems to be squandered on Facebook, Bebo and the like.

When we stop relying on teachers and encourage children to learn for themselves, then we might have a shot at the smart economy day dream.

Rabble Rabble

I get the impression that people who think that the leaving Cert "education system in this country rewards following rules and memorising off data" are the ones who probably did the easy courses and in general this group can't really carry an argument.

What we have gotten here is symptomatic - a lot of anecdotes but few statistics. In fact I see only one post which actually took Fortune's arguments and tried to take them on, one by one, the rest were the typical AH type rants about religion and Irish. It would be dull even if it were not so predictable.

None of the mathematical courses I did were rote - nor could they have been - Applied Maths, Maths, and Physics ( except for the description of experiments). English was compare and contrast, and essay writing as was Irish - French involved aural and oral and writing tests; history assumed knowledge but expected you to apply it to discuss why the event happened in essay form. This was pre-1998 though, when the syllabus declined, or so I hear.

My real skill and knowledge came from reading, research and my own private study on my own time. I never studies history in college but I can hold a conversation with a historian on certain subject easily. I never studied music but I have professional playing abilities. I never studies English but I wrote a novel and my reading mater is far, far beyond the nonsense my peers read (twilight, Harry Potter etc).

Great that you learned history since college, that's exactly what is expected of any university level education - however the fact that your "peers" read Harry Potter - tells us something about your peers, and therefore you. My peers read fairly difficult stuff, as do I and none of us did English in Uni, and I think they are representative. I have read most of what was considered the literary canon by 18, in fact, and I can have a conversation about the canon with most Irish people I have met with a university education, but not so much English people.

Rote, by the way, is actually more prevalent in certain university courses than in the leaving cert. Both Law and Medicine take a lot of rote, as would biology. Some of this by necessity. It is actually true that you do need to learn some foundational stuff. A person who thinks that France is in the US is not educated ( see Jay Leno's walkabouts) even if a "Critical thinker" whatever that means. We can critically think only after we know stuff.

Rabble Rabble

szjon wrote: »

Sorry, you are a dreamer.

Still, It is refreshing to see an optimist in the fields of carnage we used to refer to as the world economy. Luck 'o the Irish to ya!

I was quoting Fortune. I even linked to it. The Irish education system apparently failed you on comprehension.

amacachi

Rabble Rabble wrote: »

None of the mathematical courses I did were rote - nor could they have been - Applied Maths, Maths, and Physics ( except for the description of experiments). English was compare and contrast, and essay writing as was Irish - French involved aural and oral and writing tests; history assumed knowledge but expected you to apply it to discuss why the event happened in essay form. This was pre-1998 though, when the syllabus declined, or so I hear.

When did you do the LC? A few years ago maths was by far the most "Here's what you're given, here's what to do" course of all, all that changed were the numbers. There'd be a rare awkward question thrown in to seperate A1s from A2s but that was it. Now they're changing the syllabus to make it more about "problem-solving" but have a look at the papers and you'll see all they're doing is further dumbing-down the content and exams.
English and Irish are predictable and most people pretty much learn off chunks of text that will fit into the couple of questions that might come up.
Physics and Applied Maths are two more template exams with few curveballs ever popping up. Biology is not creative, it's purely learning a few simple facts, as is Geography, as is economics.

Rabble Rabble

Nody wrote: »

As long as it is not unionised.

The Irish private sector isn't. If it were, then we would not have the labour flexibility we are talking about.

True, but there are several competitors cropping up.

Fair point but we dont know how that will affect anything.

They emigrate; the working market is far more fluid esp. for the well educated who can get a job in another country.
Of what exactly? The Irish production worker is not exactly cheap or highly educated vs. say Poland or Romania.

Actually, I dont have the statistics of Irish brain drain - however it is standard for skilled people to emigrate from low wage countries to high wage countries. Is IT in trouble in Dublin. Not from what I have heard, or seen from Google et al.

As for Exports the Irish share of the export market has been amazing in the last few years, and everybody is ignoring the most impressive statistic in the linked article - if most of you even bothered to read it - Ireland's exports are 80% of GDP, Greece's exports are 7% of GDP. Greece we are not.

If you want to argue that focusing solely on Irish in most of our primary schools is helping to fulfill the linguistic needs of companies such as PayPal, feel free.

Apparently Pay Pal are in Dublin, nevertheless.

Rabble Rabble

amacachi wrote: »

When did you do the LC? A few years ago maths was by far the most "Here's what you're given, here's what to do" course of all, all that changed were the numbers. There'd be a rare awkward question thrown in to seperate A1s from A2s but that was it. Now they're changing the syllabus to make it more about "problem-solving" but have a look at the papers and you'll see all they're doing is further dumbing-down the content and exams.
English and Irish are predictable and most people pretty much learn off chunks of text that will fit into the couple of questions that might come up.
Physics and Applied Maths are two more template exams with few curveballs ever popping up. Biology is not creative, it's purely learning a few simple facts, as is Geography, as is economics.

Biology would have to be rote. I dont remember the courses you mentioned being rote - if so they dumbed down since the early 90's. Either way I wasnt educated to learn the exams but the process.

It does seem that the changes in the last decade have dumbed down the leaving cert - the solution is simple - bring back the old courses.

Rabble Rabble

I could be wrong about the LC - I am 35 and have lived abroad for years. If it has dumbed down then that is appaling.

EDIT:

The Tribune says there has been grade inflation and falling standards.

professore

szjon wrote: »

Sorry, you are a dreamer.

Have you heard of education inflation?

I've lived and worked in 5 different european countries and I can tell you that the Irish are NOT educated. They can pass exams no problem, that is what they are trained to do. Problem solving?

Don't make me laugh.

I have also lived in one European country and worked for many years with people from several others. I don't believe that people in other European countries are significantly better or worse educated than I was with the glaring exception of language education, which is terrible. In my experience Irish people tend to look at a problem from many different angles whereas the typical European will tackle it in a rigid step-by-step way. However these are all generalisations. There are geniuses and idiots in every country.

szjon wrote: »

The young and educated?


Do you have any idea of the travesty of national belief that fuelled the celtic pussycat? Your kids were taught religion and social studies over science and self education.

I agree about religion. We are all athiests in my family yet my 12 year old daughter must do several hours of religion a week. I happen to think social studies is a GOOD thing - there is no point in being a "problem solver" if you don't understand the mentality of the people you are solving the problem for.

szjon wrote: »

Notice the rise of the 'learning to learn' module, (compulsory) at every I.T and uni in Ireland.

This is a module designed to teach the kids how to LEARN, something they didn't learn in school where they were spoon fed the answers to the papers they had to sit. Irish education is about passing. Drilling the answers till you can tick the right box. Learning? My hole! It's as much indoctrination as religion. Employers want problem solvers, not regurgitators.

Again this should be introduced in primary school. I agree that there is too much rote learning and not enough problem solving. At least though you have to work to pass exams.

szjon wrote: »

As for the young, show me someone who understands the importance of science, history, economics or ledership. I'll put up the 99 per cent who think life revolves around facebook and Americas next top model. Obese, lazy, stupid and raised to believe thast Ireland is some wonderful Island that shines a light of intelligence on the world, that nothing can be bad and that they, (individually) can do no wrong in their pursuit of 'the Irish dream'.

The same can be said of any European country - or any country in the world. Look at the sh1te TV that comes out of the US or Japan.

szjon wrote: »

Ireland is a PIIG, the debate over its success was finished when we got into the acronyms. (IMF, EU, NAMA etc) this country is a slave to the markets and whatever you believe will rescue us from it is frankly laughable. We are slaves to the debt that was run up by farmers and builders. Suddenly worth millions only to find those millions were owed. Wealth is not borrowed, wealth is wealth. Those who borrowed have been shown for the fools they are/were.

Wealth is intellect or labour. Labour left ireland in the 80s. Intellect was never here.

What nonsense. There are plenty of world class intellects here. As for the money that flooded into the country, blame loose regulation at EU level. This is as much the fault of European banks as Irish citizens. Flood any EU country with cheap loose credit and you will get the same effect.

szjon wrote: »

Corporation tax..

Ha ha. EU might have something to say about that when Irish banks are printing their own money and drawing from the ECB by the bilions. Yes, consider that tax safe at your peril.

Well then we should leave the euro and default - as we have a veto on tax. Without the 12.5% corporation tax we are screwed anyway. The EU hasn't exactly covered itself in glory either with the bailout of it's own banks by charging a punitive interest rate.

szjon wrote: »

Exports.

With inflation rising, those workers are going to need pay rises. What do we have here? Uneducated factory workers demanding higher pay, rising input costs and corporate tax increases coupled with EU interference. (Think we have a say over Germany and France? Think again!) Those factories will be off to eastern europe and asia as quick as they left the US to come here. Cheaper wages, highly educated workforce and taxes that are minimal. Win, Win.

You're talking about heavily unionised EU workers there. Irish workers have proven themselves exceptionally ready to share the pain unlike their EU counterparts.

szjon wrote: »

Labour market flexibility.

Only Australian bars, american bars uk bars and german brothels will soak up the Irish this time. Construction is dead. Travel for minimum wages is the new shining light.

Still, It is refreshing to see an optimist in the fields of carnage we used to refer to as the world economy. Luck 'o the Irish to ya!

This doesn't even deserve comment.

professore

barongreen wrote: »

Embittered by your situation i think, and is traveling that enlightening? really?

Travelling to and working in a foreign country is VERY enlightening.

professore

Rabble Rabble wrote: »

I could be wrong about the LC - I am 35 and have lived abroad for years. If it has dumbed down then that is appaling.

EDIT:

The Tribune says there has been grade inflation and falling standards.

I am 39 and also must say that the LC was no cakewalk when I did it. However two of my co-graduates are now teachers and say that standards are way down.

th3 s1aught3r

Rabble Rabble wrote: »

Labor market flexibility.
Corporations love low taxes.
The young and educated survive.
Grow out of a bad situation through exports.

From Fortune.

I agree with most of this, if Ireland gets control of it's borrowing it will bounce back. Keep corporation tax low.

From Fortune

When Ireland 'roared' before it was built on the above points but also the very important fact that we were a low cost economy back in the early ninties. We are no longer a low cost country

Nody

Rabble Rabble wrote: »

Actually, I dont have the statistics of Irish brain drain - however it is standard for skilled people to emigrate from low wage countries to high wage countries. Is IT in trouble in Dublin. Not from what I have heard, or seen from Google et al.

What matters is how much you have left living on after you've settled in for a nice life. I know plenty of people going to "low cost" countries lifting same or similar salaries they did in Ireland (they do pay well for experts in those countries which is far from the country average salary) and then there are the likes of Canada, USA, Australia, NZ etc.

zig

Economic growth is a completely self fulfilling prophecy. Psychology has a MASSIVE impact on a countries performance. Its safe to say you could defy alot of statistical forecasts if you had control over what went on in the minds of an entire population. It is unfortunate that any hope of optimism is consistently shot down here and all over the country for that matter.
Positivity fuels positivity.
It is one thing to be cautiously sceptical, or slightly pessimistic when reading these bullish articles but its another thing to actually derive a small bit of satisfaction from fuelling negativity. Im not exaggerating when I genuinely feel that some posters are getting a small bit of pleasure out of taking the most negative outlook possible.

If every single person that had some money to spare in this country was willing to go out and spend it, I honestly believe we could not only reach our 2.75% growth target but could actually exceed it.

Yes we are in sh1tstorm, yes there will be more taxes, more cuts, but I think its time we started paying a little more attention to the positive articles, and I think we should use this election as our turning point in how we begin to look at things.

Spudmonkey

Amhran Nua wrote: »

So the hundreds of thousands of Irish people employed by multinationals are what, pushing around mops? I don't think you realise the amount of high level R&D jobs as well as engineering placements multinationals have brought to Ireland.

The company I work for moved to Ireland in the late 70's for multiple reasons, one of which was an educated workforce. Over the years the course in UL which essentially funneled graduates into this company has been completely destroyed. Electronic Engineering was one of the UL's flagship courses with ~200 graduates every year in the early 90's. There was ~30 when I graduated and that has diminished further in the few years since I've left.

What's more but we are finding that the company is having to go further afield looking for graduates. No longer can they find the workers they need locally and are having to recruit in countries such as Spain, France and Poland. The idea that Ireland is producing the graduates these companies need is a complete fallacy.

Sorry I don't have a link to prove this to you but this is whats happening on the ground where I work.

z0oT

Spudmonkey wrote: »

The company I work for moved to Ireland in the late 70's for multiple reasons, one of which was an educated workforce. Over the years the course in UL which essentially funneled graduates into this company has been completely destroyed. Electronic Engineering was one of the UL's flagship courses with ~200 graduates every year in the early 90's. There was ~30 when I graduated and that has diminished further in the few years since I've left.

What's more but we are finding that the company is having to go further afield looking for graduates. No longer can they find the workers they need locally and are having to recruit in countries such as Spain, France and Poland. The idea that Ireland is producing the graduates these companies need is a complete fallacy.

As a recent graduate of the above mentioned degree from UCC, it's my understanding that the problem regarding Electronic Engineering graduates is quantity, not necessarily quality. It seems that the numbers of engineering graduates are in quite short supply when it comes to the numbers that multinationals (at least in said field) would like.

The majority of my class got jobs in Ireland, with a small handfull going abroad, and those that did mostly chose that option. There were essentially jobs available for anyone that wanted them - recession or no recession, at least for anyone that got a decent degree. I myself for example could have gotten a job here but I chose the route of some postgraduate education in the UK instead. Once I'm done at the end of this year, I may very well go back to the same company again depending on how I fare with the engineering job scene over here.

So it's not necessarily the problem that the graduates are sub-standard (again, at least in said field from what I've seen), it's that there simply aren't enough of them. I would say the main issue is at second level with the dwindling standards of and numbers taking honours maths at leaving cert. among other issues aswell.

Duke Leonal Felmet

szjon wrote: »

Sorry, you are a dreamer.

Have you heard of education inflation?

I've lived and worked in 5 different european countries and I can tell you that the Irish are NOT educated. They can pass exams no problem, that is what they are trained to do. Problem solving?

Don't make me laugh.

The young and educated?


Do you have any idea of the travesty of national belief that fuelled the celtic pussycat? Your kids were taught religion and social studies over science and self education.

Notice the rise of the 'learning to learn' module, (compulsory) at every I.T and uni in Ireland.

This is a module designed to teach the kids how to LEARN, something they didn't learn in school where they were spoon fed the answers to the papers they had to sit. Irish education is about passing. Drilling the answers till you can tick the right box. Learning? My hole! It's as much indoctrination as religion. Employers want problem solvers, not regurgitators.

As for the young, show me someone who understands the importance of science, history, economics or ledership. I'll put up the 99 per cent who think life revolves around facebook and Americas next top model. Obese, lazy, stupid and raised to believe thast Ireland is some wonderful Island that shines a light of intelligence on the world, that nothing can be bad and that they, (individually) can do no wrong in their pursuit of 'the Irish dream'.

Ireland is a PIIG, the debate over its success was finished when we got into the acronyms. (IMF, EU, NAMA etc) this country is a slave to the markets and whatever you believe will rescue us from it is frankly laughable. We are slaves to the debt that was run up by farmers and builders. Suddenly worth millions only to find those millions were owed. Wealth is not borrowed, wealth is wealth. Those who borrowed have been shown for the fools they are/were.

Wealth is intellect or labour. Labour left ireland in the 80s. Intellect was never here.

Corporation tax..


Ha ha. EU might have something to say about that when Irish banks are printing their own money and drawing from the ECB by the bilions. Yes, consider that tax safe at your peril!

Exports.

With inflation rising, those workers are going to need pay rises. What do we have here? Uneducated factory workers demanding higher pay, rising input costs and corporate tax increases coupled with EU interference. (Think we have a say over Germany and France? Think again!) Those factories will be off to eastern europe and asia as quick as they left the US to come here. Cheaper wages, highly educated workforce and taxes that are minimal. Win, Win.

Labour market flexibility.

Only Australian bars, american bars uk bars and german brothels will soak up the Irish this time. Construction is dead. Travel for minimum wages is the new shining light.

Still, It is refreshing to see an optimist in the fields of carnage we used to refer to as the world economy. Luck 'o the Irish to ya!

Were you drunk when you wrote this?

szjon

barongreen wrote: »

Embittered by your situation i think, and is traveling that enlightening? really?

I'm extremely busy and haven't had time to respond to this thread, note the time.

I AM embittered, mostly due to people who cannot see their hand in front of their face and choose o live life blinkered while calling others things like, deranged or embittered without bothering to make a case the other way. Some of my facts have already been posted by others, I do not have the time. I'm typing this on my way to bed.

As for my situation. I went all in with silver and gold a few years ago. Yes, things are going terribly for me. No debt, hard assets and a tinfoil hat to sleep in. How are you doing? You don't seem too cheerful to me.

Don't confuse my bitterness with selfishness, quite the opposite, I care deeply about what is going on in this country and elsewhere as I see the terminal path of decline leading to things we would rather not witness. I'm ready for it but I'd rather not go there.

While I may make points in a strong fashion (I'm an anti-social S.O.B at the best of times) I have made no personal attack on you so please refrain from making them on me. Your judgement is not welcome.

szjon

Rabble Rabble wrote: »

I was quoting Fortune. I even linked to it. The Irish education system apparently failed you on comprehension.

I'm not Irish, I was educated in Scotland a long time ago and left school at 14. My teenage daughter has spent some of her time being educated here after starting her education in Poland.

I was a little drunk when I responded, hence the inflammatories, I apologise for missing the gist but to be honest I laughed out loud when I read those four lines and launched into a bit of a spiel. Cest la vie.

I really must get to bed. Just one last thing.

@whoever said we must start spending.

You lead the way, see how you do with that one. I fear you are missing the bigger picture. We'll be spending alright with massive inflation this year. Have you seen the rampant rise of all commodities and the continuing debasement of the currency they are priced in? I'm going to need my money more than anything in the next few years, spending it is a fools paradise in this situation.

femur61

szjon wrote: »

Sorry, you are a dreamer.

Have you heard of education inflation?

I've lived and worked in 5 different european countries and I can tell you that the Irish are NOT educated. They can pass exams no problem, that is what they are trained to do. Problem solving?

Don't make me laugh.

The young and educated?

Have to agree with you on this point. Education is superior to the UK because majority leave school at 16 but their A level system they study a subjaect at a more indept level. Didn't we drop in our literacy level of 5th in the world in 2000 to 17th http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/1207/breaking41.html

In reality we pated ourselves on the back, but with the advent of cheap travel and the internet we are aware that we are not as great of a nation that for years we have been led to beleive.

rumour

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Again, I'm going to need a source on this.

With respect, this is a very good example of whatis wrong with our education system which then permeates the working environment.

You are asking for the answer, if the answer is not infrontof your nose you fail to comphrehed the issue.

Irish graduates in my experience (this does not apply to all of them) are deficient in problem solving. Employing an irish graduate to solve or manage something can quite easily result in the type of pseudo intellectual question posed here. The burden of delivery is switched to the employer. Why bother with that?

Now you may ask again for a source, but this is a current developement there are no objective current sources only what industry is doing. Guess what Google are employing foreign graduates at a time we hail ourselves as the internet capital of the world. In reality we do no more than provide some offices....

If you need sources I'm inclined to say do your own study.

maninasia

zig wrote: »

Economic growth is a completely self fulfilling prophecy. Psychology has a MASSIVE impact on a countries performance. Its safe to say you could defy alot of statistical forecasts if you had control over what went on in the minds of an entire population. It is unfortunate that any hope of optimism is consistently shot down here and all over the country for that matter.
Positivity fuels positivity.
It is one thing to be cautiously sceptical, or slightly pessimistic when reading these bullish articles but its another thing to actually derive a small bit of satisfaction from fuelling negativity. Im not exaggerating when I genuinely feel that some posters are getting a small bit of pleasure out of taking the most negative outlook possible.

If every single person that had some money to spare in this country was willing to go out and spend it, I honestly believe we could not only reach our 2.75% growth target but could actually exceed it.

Yes we are in sh1tstorm, yes there will be more taxes, more cuts, but I think its time we started paying a little more attention to the positive articles, and I think we should use this election as our turning point in how we begin to look at things.

Put some positive spin on it, confidence is the answer, everybody around in the circle of life now, hands held high...celtic tiger roar lets hear it...I'm worth it....IM WORTH IT...PENNIES FOR APPLES (lost meself in the enthusiasm for a minute, anybody want to buy a Renault?).

zig

maninasia wrote: »

Put some positive spin on it, confidence is the answer, everybody around in the circle of life now, hands held high...celtic tiger roar lets hear it...I'm worth it....IM WORTH IT...PENNIES FOR APPLES (lost meself in the enthusiasm for a minute, anybody want to buy a Renault?).

something like that yea

murphaph

sollar wrote: »

I spent 13 years being taught irish at primary and secondary school and only 3 years learning german. I can speak far more german than irish. Something is rotten about the way irish is taught in schools.

I'm the same, though having emigrated to Germany and forcing myself to learn the language, it is quite incredible how I managed to learn to count in Irish and remember a few words here and there but can't actually string a proper sentence together after sitting through Irish classes for 13 years or so. There are a couple of issues with Irish as I see it...the way it's taught is a proven failure as so few people can speak Irish after 13 years "learning" it. Secondly, it should absolutely not be a compulsory subject. Teaching "religion" in schools should be binned immediately and replaced with a meaningful civics class that teaches respect for others etc. but is not focused on God. That should be left for outside schools.

Anyone from my generation will agree that school in Ireland prepares you poorly for university as you are indeed learning stuff off to pass exams and not to solve problems. It's no wonder that courses like mine (electronic engineering) have massive attrition rates in the first 6 months. Students just aren't prepared for the switch to a problem solving environment. Perhaps this has improved since I left school in 96 but I'm not hopeful that all that much has changed tbh.

We're not the worst in Europe but we need to lose the attitude (prevalent I would say) that we are "well educated". We are average with lots of room to improve.

Hayte

Rabble Rabble wrote: »

None of the mathematical courses I did were rote - nor could they have been - Applied Maths, Maths, and Physics ( except for the description of experiments). English was compare and contrast, and essay writing as was Irish - French involved aural and oral and writing tests; history assumed knowledge but expected you to apply it to discuss why the event happened in essay form. This was pre-1998 though, when the syllabus declined, or so I hear.

...

Great that you learned history since college, that's exactly what is expected of any university level education - however the fact that your "peers" read Harry Potter - tells us something about your peers, and therefore you. My peers read fairly difficult stuff, as do I and none of us did English in Uni, and I think they are representative. I have read most of what was considered the literary canon by 18, in fact, and I can have a conversation about the canon with most Irish people I have met with a university education, but not so much English people.

Rote, by the way, is actually more prevalent in certain university courses than in the leaving cert. Both Law and Medicine take a lot of rote, as would biology. Some of this by necessity. It is actually true that you do need to learn some foundational stuff. A person who thinks that France is in the US is not educated ( see Jay Leno's walkabouts) even if a "Critical thinker" whatever that means. We can critically think only after we know stuff.

I don't know the state of Irish universities since I got my BA in English Literature from Southampton University, but the quality of teaching there was absolutely unparalleled. I have never encountered anything even close, before or since. They taught me proper research technique, application of logic, where logic breaks down (fallacy), arguing from evidence and sourcing policy, proper critical theory and we were applying it every day. I didn't do any rote learning and honestly, they could see it a mile off if you didn't know what you were talking about.

My high school education was also in England but it wasn't very structured and I didn't get a whole lot out of it. My degree was highly structured and I believe it was necessary.

As an aside, I have also been learning music production and guitar for the past 14 years or so, although I am primarily self taught. Theres only so far you can go without a structured education and without proper mentoring. You can get into terrible habits that are difficult to unlearn at a later date. The same applies to studying anything in depth since you require a whole boat load of context and it is important to learn in some sort of order. You need to know why you are learning and you must never, ever learn theory without application. If you do, you get all kinds of crazy ideas and it doesn't make a whole lot of sense when you are expected to apply your knowledge.

I'd say that my English degree was invaluable but the skills it taught me were diffuse. It is not an apprenticed discipline where you immediately go into a profession and apply the knowledge as you do with medicine and law, but it is surprising how much of these disciplines in practice require you to communicate adequately, to write eloquently and from evidence. You don't learn these things in a University degree program. You sort of fumble your way through during your apprenticeship.

Some people regard certain arts based degrees as being useless but I don't think they are, as long as they are structured properly. Its just that with an English degree, you need auxilliary qualifications and work experience to make you ready for different professions because there is no apprenticeship lined up for you. It helps to have a working knowledge of how the workplace works. Its extremely useful to just get a lackey job whilst studying so you can apply what you learn to a real work environment. When it comes to law, its amazing how much of the job is not about law but about being a counselor to your clients, about negotiation, about being able to realize your clients expectations so you do need to get into their head a bit. You need to figure out how much of their expectations for a case can be achieved in reality and where its a tough sell, you need to communicate to them why its a tough sell. You need to use the right language and push the right buttons because even though you know the law, your job is also to communicate how it works to someone who knows nothing about it.

Hayte

Labor market flexibility.
Corporations love low taxes.
The young and educated survive.
Grow out of a bad situation through exports.

This is theoretical and not particularly useful without critical comment. I wouldn't say we have labour market flexibility, with the minimum wage and the cost of living so high in population centres like Dublin.

The corporation tax thing is over simplified. If we look at Google, they have 2x primary companies operating in this country:

Google Ireland Holdings (unlimited)
Google Ireland limited

Google Ireland Holdings is Bermuda based and operates overseas in Ireland. It has no Irish employees as far as I am aware. The US parent company licenses the rights to its non-US search and advertising technologies to Google Ireland Holdings. It is an unlimited company so it not legally required for them to disclose their financial dealings.

At the same time, a big chunk of Google's non-US profits go through Google Ireland limited which then has to pay a massive boat load in royalty payments for the use of Google Ireland Holdings' Intellectual Property. Therefore, Google Ireland limited's pretax profits are quite low and so the state gets its 12.5% cut from...not very much.

By doing this Google avoids paying corporate income tax in the US on a large amount of its non-US profits and the conversion to royalty payments reduces their overseas tax burden as well.

Now aside from the corporation tax rate, Irish tax laws allow companies to transfer certain types of payment to other EU nations tax free. Amongst these are royalty payments. This is partly why Google Netherlands Holdings exists, another unlimited company with no employees (shell company) whose only purpose is to reroute royalty monies to Bermuda where there is no corporate income tax.

In this manner, Google has managed to reduce its company wide tax rate to significantly below the US rate. It has also managed to reduce its overseas tax burden to virtually nothing. In this example, we can see how Ireland's 12.5% tax rate is not all that important since they hold their money in a tax haven like Bermuda anyway. They simply use EU tax loop holes to legally get their money to Bermuda at the lowest cost.

The young and educated survive? What were the last statistics posted in the Irish Times? Something like 70% of Irish graduates are looking for professional opportunities overseas. They may well survive but they will also lend their talents to countries where they can find work.

Grow out of a bad situation through exports? The UK tried to do this in 2010 and largely failed. Its also worth pointing out that a huge amount of Irish exports are the produce of foreign companies that have offices in Ireland because they are essentially evading tax using loopholes in Irish tax laws. Google is one of them but some others are Microsoft and Dell.

Part of the reason Germany is enjoying a surge in export led growth right now is because they have been inwardly investing for a long time. As others have pointed out, they pay boat loads in taxes but it goes towards infrastructure and supporting home grown commerce and industry.

I know that I've seen Thomann.de grow from some sole trader upstart into this pan European monster of music instrument retail. They are so good, they beat Irish music instrument retail on price, delivery and after sales support every single time. If you want to buy sound toys theres literally no sense in the consumer shopping anywhere else.

View

Rabble Rabble wrote: »

Labor market flexibility.

Labour market flexibility? How many public sector workers - on normal (i.e. not temporary) contracts - have suffered compulsory redundancies?

We don't have labour market flexibility if almost 40% of the workforce are exempt from what the other 60% either could face or have already faced.

Rabble Rabble wrote: »

I agree with most of this, if Ireland gets control of it's borrowing it will bounce back.

Ireland has control of its borrowing - we are borrowing to fund our day-to-day expenditure (i.e. excluding the banks), because we choose to do so.

ardmacha

We don't have labour market flexibility if almost 40% of the workforce are exempt from what the other 60% either could face or have already faced.

Labour market flexibility is needed where there is a change in demand from various sectors. Public sector employment does not vary much because the demand for the services it provides does not vary much. The demand for schools and hospitals is pretty much the same, or even greater, than in 2007.

This continual reference to PS workers not being made redundant stems either from simple ignorance of this or from pretend ignorance of this fact to better support prejudice. Either way it contributes nothing to discussion.

Spudmonkey

z0oT wrote: »

So it's not necessarily the problem that the graduates are sub-standard (again, at least in said field from what I've seen), it's that there simply aren't enough of them. I would say the main issue is at second level with the dwindling standards of and numbers taking honours maths at leaving cert. among other issues aswell.

Its not a case of one or the other. The problem isn't exclusive.

Yes there is a problem with dwindling numbers as can be seen in my course over the years, as this reduces the pool to pick from. However we have had students on co-op that have not been called back and would be likely not to be either.

I have seen students in third year have problems with resistor-divider networks and hex numbers. Pretty basic stuff really and not just from UL either.

RichardAnd

Spudmonkey wrote: »

Its not a case of one or the other. The problem isn't exclusive.

Yes there is a problem with dwindling numbers as can be seen in my course over the years, as this reduces the pool to pick from. However we have had students on co-op that have not been called back and would be likely not to be either.

I have seen students in third year have problems with resistor-divider networks and hex numbers. Pretty basic stuff really and not just from UL either.

I've seen IT students in 4th year that still didn't understand binary code.

View

ardmacha wrote: »

Labour market flexibility is needed where there is a change in demand from various sectors. Public sector employment does not vary much because the demand for the services it provides does not vary much. The demand for schools and hospitals is pretty much the same, or even greater, than in 2007.

Private sector lay-offs don't just occur because of a change in demand, they also occur because of strategic/budget considerations - in other words, the business may examine what it is doing and close sections and lay-off people. Labour market flexibility allows this to happen in the private sector. It doesn't happen here in the public sector.

ardmacha wrote: »

This continual reference to PS workers not being made redundant stems either from simple ignorance of this or from pretend ignorance of this fact to better support prejudice. Either way it contributes nothing to discussion.

Try reading how the US states and indeed other EU member states react to budgetary problems arising from the recession. They DO lay off public workers because the budget isn't there to keep them all on; here though we increase our borrowings rather than face up to that even if it means calling in the IMF in the process.

Needless to say the public sector workers here don't like those lay-offs elsewhere being pointed out as it certainly does contributes something to our discussion - just not something the public sector wants to discuss, that is.

baalthor

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Besides, unless you have inside information about the percentage of Google's employees in Ireland who are not from Ireland, you're making some wild assumptions there. It could be less than 10%, and probably is, and that comment could still be justified.

It's probably more like 10% are from Ireland.

Amhran Nua wrote: »

The way you put it you'd swear no Irish person speaks a word outside of English. I'd bet that paypal finds every employee it's looking for, and most of them will be Irish too.

If multiple European languages are required then the vast majority will be non-Irish.

deirdremf

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Ah, yes, the American Chamber of Commerce in ireland, that group of radicals who have our best interests at heart.
Do you work for them - or are you just a CIA operative?

deirdremf

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Regardless of the amount of Irish taught in our schools, paypal and google will use non-Irish for these jobs simply because they need people with native or near-native ability in the various languages to do the jobs.
Irish people may be employed for the English-speaking market, and for managerial positions, but are unlikely to get jobs dealing with Latvians in Latvian for obvious reasons.