Time for "Martial Law" on Public Sector Pay...

HellFireClub

Hard to argue with:

A prominent academic has said economic 'Martial Law' needs to be imposed to bring down rates of pay in Ireland's public sector.

The call has come from Ed Walsh, founding President of the University of Limerick, who said Ireland can no longer afford the current levels of fees.

He is pointing to the difference between the salaries of professionals like doctors and teachers here, and their European counterparts.

Dr Walsh said he knows it would not be acceptable to many people, but the time for talking is over.

Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/academic-calls-for-martial-law-on-public-sector-pay-493974.html#ixzz1EKJdyzv9

gigino

+1. That comes from someone with a top public service background, a public service pension and no doubt many friends and colleagues in the public service.

A growing number of my colleagues in the public service too acknowledge that despite the pay cuts, we are still well overpaid. Time to cut the public service more, especially a lot more among the middle and top earners in the public service. Its for the good of the country, as the current situation is unsustainable.

Welease

gigino wrote: »

+1. That comes from someone with a top public service background, a public service pension and no doubt many friends and colleagues in the public service.

A growing number of my colleagues in the public service too acknowledge that despite the pay cuts, we are still well overpaid. Time to cut the public service more, especially a lot more among the middle and top earners in the public service. Its for the good of the country, as the current situation is unsustainable.

Why cut the middle and top when it's the lowest who are statistically the most overpaid?

RichardAnd

The problem with the PS isn't a few people on 100k+ salaries, it's thousands of peoples on 30-40k salaries. What's needs for the PS is a clearly defined pay scale. In short, a filing cleak should have a max wage of 22k or there abouts and this can never increase no matter how long the said person remains in that position.

Godge

Welease wrote: »

Why cut the middle and top when it's the lowest who are statistically the most overpaid?

You are right on that and funnily enough that also applies to front-line staff. Principals of schools are not very overpaid by international standards but teachers are very overpaid.

Sea Sharp

40% pay cuts for all and demotions for high paid people who aren't needed. How the feck else are we going to get the spending under control!!!!

sarumite

The problem with the PS is not pay, its lack of competition. I don't mind paying good wages if in return I get a good service. Though there is no competition in the PS and competition is what brings in innovation etc. Further challenges include strict pay codes making it difficult to entice talented people, also the inability to hire and fire as and when needed impedes the PS's ability to become performance driven. Purely ancedotal, but I would say the majority of times I have had to deal with a PS body I have found their service was not good. Personally i think this is because I have no option but to deal with that particular PS body and perhaps through this situation the staff have become complacent.

Officer Giggles

the problem with cutting PS wages now is that anyone with a mortgage in the PS has borrowed on the strenght of the wage they are on, the PS wages have come down quite a bit in the last 18 months and is putting alot of people to the wall, granted there are still many people in the PS overpaid however you cant keep reducing their salary and expect them to be able to repay debts they incurred against their original pay it just doesnt make sense as itll lead to defaults and the rest

sarumite

Officer Giggles wrote: »

the problem with cutting PS wages now is that anyone with a mortgage in the PS has borrowed on the strenght of the wage they are on, the PS wages have come down quite a bit in the last 18 months and is putting alot of people to the wall, granted there are still many people in the PS overpaid however you cant keep reducing their salary and expect them to be able to repay debts they incurred against their original pay it just doesnt make sense as itll lead to defaults and the rest

Though isn't that the same argument that could be made in the private sector as well. I am sure there were those in Dell and waterford crystal who also bought based on the strenght of there wages.

Officer Giggles

it is the same thing yes but i was being PS specific because thats what the thread title is in relation to, there are plenty of people in the PS who dont earn that big a salary and get thrown into the same grouping as the likes of the hundreds of civil servants that dont justify their existence, to sort out the PS there needs to be an overhall of the way in which it is run and dramatically cut the numbers of ghosts that just turn up to collect a wage every thursday, and even if there are only a "few" people earning massive wages they should be capped to show an example, the PS was let run out of control by FF over the last 14 years and now you have Mr Martin carrying on as if he is totally shocked by the whole situation and now is the time to sort it out instead of keeping a strong hand on things from the begining

The_Thing

Less pay = less work done by me.

sollar

More paycuts = strikes

The_Thing

I don't intend to strike this time around.

I plan on going into work, do nothing apart from reading a paper or two, and get paid for it.

sollar

The_Thing wrote: »

I don't intend to strike this time around.

I plan on going into work, do practically nothing, and get paid for it.

I think the new government will offer a redundancy package fairly soon after election and if they get adequate numbers the croke park agreement will stand.

The_Thing

Any redundancy package would probably only be worth about two years pay after everything is taken from it. If I sit on my ar** for four years I'll have gotten twice as much as I would have taking the redundancy.

liammur

RichardAnd wrote: »

The problem with the PS isn't a few people on 100k+ salaries, it's thousands of peoples on 30-40k salaries.

Where did you pull this nugget of info from?

We have thousands earning well in excess of €100K. A senior manager recently asked the PS to take €100K off his salary and he still felt embarrassed walking away with around €200K.
Simply put, our problem is as follows:
We have the highest paid politicians in Europe, along with the highest paid consultants,,,,,managers,,,,teachers,,,,guards,,,etc

Sand

@The Thing

I don't intend to strike this time around.

I plan on going into work, do nothing apart from reading a paper or two, and get paid for it.

Do you think anyone will notice?

roy rodgers

I'm sick and tired of hearing the same old sh1t over and over again that PS are over paid!
I'm one of these people who earn between 30-40 grand a year and all I bring home after tax is 480 euro a week to listen to the same old story going around and around again and again from people who haven't got a clue about the work that 90% of us work really hard doing ever day.
I see some friends of mine that work in tesco's and dunne's packing shelves that earn more than me and for the people on the dole who get 188 a week plus rent allowance and a medical card and flue allowance's and what ever they get saying that they can't live of that please give me patience!! Most people I know on the dole are quite happy being there and have no intention of ever going back to work.
I think the goverment(IMF) should look at the welfare payments again before they look at the PS again, after all there is more peope recieving welfare payments than WORKING in the public service.

dissed doc

Sea Sharp wrote: »

40% pay cuts for all and demotions for high paid people who aren't needed. How the feck else are we going to get the spending under control!!!!

Not giving €150 billion+ to pay off the debts of around 100 people (mostly politicians, and private sectors bankers and developers) would be a good start.

Merch

The_Thing wrote: »

I don't intend to strike this time around.

I plan on going into work, do nothing apart from reading a paper or two, and get paid for it.

Been in the PS in the past myself, some people do that anyway.

The_Thing wrote: »

Any redundancy package would probably only be worth about two years pay after everything is taken from it. If I sit on my ar** for four years I'll have gotten twice as much as I would have taking the redundancy.

Both your statements make clear the mindset of many in the PS, but a similar attitude in the other sector wouldn't fly, performance reviews, promotion only on the basis of measurable improvements/profits.

The start is to cut those at the top, and work downwards unfortunately there isn't the money to pay for people as it is, let alone if they intend to sit on their arse in protest.

dissed doc

roy rodgers wrote: »

I'm sick and tired of hearing the same old sh1t over and over again that PS are over paid!
I'm one of these people who earn between 30-40 grand a year and all I bring home after tax is 480 euro a week to listen to the same old story going around and around again and again from people who haven't got a clue about the work that 90% of us work really hard doing ever day.

It will not stop until all public services are outsourced and privatised, which will be suggested by the next government intent on ensuring the debt slavery thrown on Ireland's citizens continues.

Full on US/Anglo conversion. Goodbye social contract. Doa good job - get your pay cut. Do a better job, with more experience - get laid off. I don't know what sort of country people seem to want, but it certainly isn't a stable social democracy, more like free for all America circa 1700s, with about as good edumacation and hopitals.

n97 mini

There really is no excuse not to cut the pay of all in the PS who earn over the average industrial wage. Following on from that, the higher you are above the average industrial wage the bigger the cut should be, "tightening" the payscales within the PS.

n97 mini

The_Thing wrote: »

Any redundancy package would probably only be worth about two years pay after everything is taken from it. If I sit on my ar** for four years I'll have gotten twice as much as I would have taking the redundancy.

The idea of redundancy is to give you a bit of a boost into your new life. Use it to set up your own business and maybe even hire a few people, for example.

Your attitude is pathetic and because of you and others like you some people can't wait for the govt to give you all the slap you so much appear to deserve.

RichardAnd

liammur wrote: »

Where did you pull this nugget of info from?

We have thousands earning well in excess of €100K. A senior manager recently asked the PS to take €100K off his salary and he still felt embarrassed walking away with around €200K.
Simply put, our problem is as follows:
We have the highest paid politicians in Europe, along with the highest paid consultants,,,,,managers,,,,teachers,,,,guards,,,etc

That's true as well but the majority of civil servants are in the lower to mid level grades; HEOs, EOs and the like. You can't just look at the top levels and say they get paid too much without looking at everyone else too. No manager in state employment should get anything close to 200k a year (and I seriously doubt many do) however nor should a administrator get 35k a year.

Head The Wall

n97 mini wrote: »

There really is no excuse not to cut the pay of all in the PS who earn over the average industrial wage. Following on from that, the higher you are above the average industrial wage the bigger the cut should be, "tightening" the payscales within the PS.

How many times do ye need to be told that the largest pay differential is at the lower end of the payscales.

Let me guess you are one of those and want everyone above you to be cut instead.

RichardAnd

Head The Wall wrote: »

How many times do ye need to be told that the largest pay differential is at the lower end of the payscales.

Let me guess you are one of those and want everyone above you to be cut instead.

Agreed. In the private sector, CEOs and high level executives get paid very well because what they do is essentially a difficult job. In the PS, similar positions SHOULD be paid a similar salary however the differences comes in accountability.

In my opinion, department heads should indeed get salaries on par with their private sector equivalents but they should also be as accountable. If the CEO of a large private company messes up, he could possibly see himself in court. I see no reason why a similar position in the PS should not be seen in the same light.

sollar

Head The Wall wrote: »

How many times do ye need to be told that the largest pay differential is at the lower end of the payscale.

That doesn't seem all that unusual for some reason. It seems ps workers are paid more especially at the lower end in other countries too.

E.G
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Bus...01009315729024

http://www.californiacenterforpublic...n-Pensions.pdf

http://www.intellectualtakeout.org/l...tain-and-italy

DoesNotCompute

roy rodgers wrote: »

I'm sick and tired of hearing the same old sh1t over and over again that PS are over paid!
I'm one of these people who earn between 30-40 grand a year and all I bring home after tax is 480 euro a week to listen to the same old story going around and around again and again from people who haven't got a clue about the work that 90% of us work really hard doing ever day.
I see some friends of mine that work in tesco's and dunne's packing shelves that earn more than me and for the people on the dole who get 188 a week plus rent allowance and a medical card and flue allowance's and what ever they get saying that they can't live of that please give me patience!! Most people I know on the dole are quite happy being there and have no intention of ever going back to work.
I think the goverment(IMF) should look at the welfare payments again before they look at the PS again, after all there is more peope recieving welfare payments than WORKING in the public service.

+100000000

I'm sick of people giving out about civil servants being lazy and overpaid. Granted there are plenty of incompetent, useless civil servants who do nothing more than making cups of tea all day, but there are those of us who work our *rses off for the good of the country and get very little thanks for the job we do.

As for the comment about reducing the salaries of clerical staff down to €22k, this will cause a lot of civil servants to default on their mortgages, and guess who will have to pay for putting them in social housing when that happens? The taxpayer.

Having said that, I am all for capping salaries in the civil service at €100k.

Side Show Bob

The_Thing wrote: »

Less pay = less work done by me.

And that's why you wouldn't survive in the private sector, I assume that its possibly impossible for you to do less work, have more holidays, oh and the sick days as well, time now to sort this, for once and for all

AndyPanty

None of you know what your talking about, your bull****ting through your ass. A job in the PS is a **** job in good times and a great job in bad times. I chose a career in the PS and I my wages were robbed by a FF/Green Gov. Dare they come to my door, Oh I'm looking forward to this election campaign How many of you have tried to evade tax or take in more than your allowance. Without the PS you would do it a lot more. Glad you sleep safely in your home at night without thinking of the checks that were made on the cable, the electric components in your house, Oh Yea some PS has checked these out, Without that PS you would have rubbish electrics in your home and you'd be waiting on a fire. I wasn't paid enough for the 50 60 hours a week I worked without o/t, I got out early,

The_Thing

Side Show Bob wrote: »

And that's why you wouldn't survive in the private sector, I assume that its possibly impossible for you to do less work, have more holidays, oh and the sick days as well, time now to sort this, for once and for all

I have a farm and livestock which I must tend before and after my day job.

I usually take my "duvet days" around the time that my spring lambs are born so I can keep an eye on them.

Gumbo

Side Show Bob wrote: »

have more holidays

some get more holidays, some get less, mass generalisation on your part there.

Side Show Bob wrote: »

oh and the sick days as well, time now to sort this, for once and for all

what is this sick day, do private sector workers not get sick......at all?
if your sick, your sick end of, i dont think the cold/flu virus gives two fcuks wether your private or public sector to ne honest :rolleyes:

th3 s1aught3r

kceire wrote: »

what is this sick day, do private sector workers not get sick......at all?
if your sick, your sick end of, i dont think the cold/flu virus gives two fcuks wether your private or public sector to ne honest :rolleyes:

I think the point is that public servents have sick days that they should take, sick or not. Everything in the public sector seems to be about waste and how to milk the system :mad:

Japer

kceire wrote: »

what is this sick day

You colleague in the public service calls some of his " sickies " duvet days,

He "usually" takes his "duvet days" around the time that his spring lambs are born so he can keep an eye on them".

Lets face it, everyone knows the lack of productivity and poor value from our 300,000 + public servants, who are paid relatively so much extra to serve the population of this little country, which is equivalent to greater Manchester.

n97 mini

Head The Wall wrote: »

How many times do ye need to be told that the largest pay differential is at the lower end of the payscales.

Let me guess you are one of those and want everyone above you to be cut instead.

Read my post again: I said there is no excuse (i.e. reason) not to cut those above the average industrial wage. I said nothing about those below it.

Merch

AndyPanty wrote: »

None of you know what your talking about, your bull****ting through your ass. A job in the PS is a **** job in good times and a great job in bad times. I chose a career in the PS and I my wages were robbed by a FF/Green Gov. Dare they come to my door, Oh I'm looking forward to this election campaign How many of you have tried to evade tax or take in more than your allowance. Without the PS you would do it a lot more. Glad you sleep safely in your home at night without thinking of the checks that were made on the cable, the electric components in your house, Oh Yea some PS has checked these out, Without that PS you would have rubbish electrics in your home and you'd be waiting on a fire. I wasn't paid enough for the 50 60 hours a week I worked without o/t, I got out early,

I tend to disagree, having spent more than a few years in the PS, I got out, but a lot of layabouts hang on as it can be very handy/cushy. having said that there are plenty of hard working people in the PS and it is soul destroying watching layabouts and a$$kissers skive while you do your best, I dont know what the second half is about. If by get out, you mean leave completely, then I think thats understandable if you are motivated (still even I wouldnt recommend it these days, ie resigning) however the PS needs to be overhauled/made efficient.
I also believe if we are to ask everyone across the spectrum to take cuts then that means the top should be first, we should stop handing money hand over fist in golden handshakes, massive pay and expenses to politicians/civil servants/public servants at the top, not that it will save as much as cutting a smaller amount off thousands, but they (politicians) need to take the pain too and lead by example, too idealistic???

n97 mini

DoesNotCompute wrote: »

As for the comment about reducing the salaries of clerical staff down to €22k, this will cause a lot of civil servants to default on their mortgages, and guess who will have to pay for putting them in social housing when that happens? The taxpayer.

The tax payer (aka the private sector) pays for them all anyway.

Officer Giggles

n97 mini wrote: »

The tax payer (aka the private sector) pays for them all anyway.

since when did the public sector not pay taxes

mikemac

sollar wrote: »

I think the new government will offer a redundancy package fairly soon after election and if they get adequate numbers the croke park agreement will stand.

If it's an attempt to clear dead wood it won't work.

The people who'll take redundancy will be the youngest, they might head off traveling for a year or back to college or do something new
Or even older people who would try something new

If you've been in the same job for decades and set in your ways it's unlikely you'd apply for this

It won't be the worst staff who'll take redundancy, far from it

Merch

Officer Giggles wrote: »

since when did the public sector not pay taxes

everyone pays (should pay) taxes but PS workers paying tax, doesnt fund the PS

Officer Giggles

Merch wrote: »

everyone pays (should pay) taxes but PS workers paying tax, doesnt fund the PS

thats the same for every country i would imagine, no matter how small a PS you have their taxes aint gonna cover their pay

Merch

feelingstressed wrote: »

If it's an attempt to clear dead wood it won't work.

The people who'll take redundancy will be the youngest, they might head off traveling for a year or back to college or do something new
Or even older people who would try something new

If you've been in the same job for decades and set in your ways it's unlikely you'd apply for this

It won't be the worst staff who'll take redundancy, far from it

Agree completely, they will never leave and they will be the ones unwilling to upskill without kicking up a fuss as they are too comfortable and they dont want to push the boundaries as they are afraid of their limitations, which they would realise anyone can push if they tried, but there is what motivation to do this by them (some of them anyway)?

n97 mini

Officer Giggles wrote: »

since when did the public sector not pay taxes

The PS don't generate any wealth. That's solely the job of the private sector.

dan_d

The_Thing wrote: »

I have a farm and livestock which I must tend before and after my day job.

I usually take my "duvet days" around the time that my spring lambs are born so I can keep an eye on them.

You're funny.:D

Thing that public servants are missing is...this document here (http://www.merrionstreet.ie/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/EUIMFmemo.pdf) does not leave these decisions in the hands of the Gov. And whether you like it or not, numbers and pay has to be reduced.We all know it.They know it.The EU know it. The unions know it. There are a variety of ways it could be done to make it as a fair as possible, but who knows what convoluted methods they'll come up with.
Strikes are unlikely to have an effect.We can no longer afford our PS.That's it, really.

Officer Giggles

n97 mini wrote: »

The PS don't generate any wealth. That's solely the job of the private sector.

correct, the PS carry out a PUBLIC SERVICE, the PS is not there to create wealth in any country they are there to serve the country. nurses, gardaí, fire service, army

n97 mini

Officer Giggles wrote: »

correct, the PS carry out a PUBLIC SERVICE, the PS is not there to create wealth in any country they are there to serve the country. nurses, gardaí, fire service, army

Yes, and by definition since the private sector are the money makers, they're the ones who pay PS salaries.

Merch

Officer Giggles wrote: »

correct, the PS carry out a PUBLIC SERVICE, the PS is not there to create wealth in any country they are there to serve the country. nurses, gardaí, fire service, army

Agreed, they are there to serve the country, but it should be done as efficiently and cost effectively as possible, for the benefit of all tax payers.

Officer Giggles

Merch wrote: »

Agreed, they are there to serve the country, but it should be done as efficiently and cost effectively as possible, for the benefit of all tax payers.

i dont disagree with you one bit, the PS has ballooned out of all proportion and would have continued the same way for years to come only for the arse falling out of the country, but it is unfair for people to come out with generalised comments implying there is no work being done as everyone is either reading the paper or having a duvet day, and everyone in the PS pays taxes and so contributes towards their own pay

liammur

RichardAnd wrote: »

Agreed. In the private sector, CEOs and high level executives get paid very well because what they do is essentially a difficult job. In the PS, similar positions SHOULD be paid a similar salary however the differences comes in accountability.

In my opinion, department heads should indeed get salaries on par with their private sector equivalents but they should also be as accountable. If the CEO of a large private company messes up, he could possibly see himself in court. I see no reason why a similar position in the PS should not be seen in the same light.

No.
PS should never match private sector wages at the higher end. Bertie ahern was spouting this bull**** too, and led the coutry to ruin in the process awarding himself something like 13 pay rises. Leave the PS and go private if money is the priority. See can they make the grade.
I didn't see E Sheehy or Goggin in court, but I did see them walk away with a couple of million. Some of our politicians are probably envious and feel their golden handshake was inadequate after all the years of service to the state.

Trophywife

I deal with the revenue commissioners on a regular basis as I'm an accountant. The attitude of a lot of them is appalling. If I was to treat clients the way they treat they're "customers" I'd be out the door straight away. Its a disgrace to be treated like that especially when I'm the one who pays they're exorbitant salaries. I think they need reminding of that...

The whole system needs reforming. They are too well overpaid for the work the actually do. They took took took when the going was good, and complained in the process, and won't give an inch now when the going gets tough so all the rest of us have to subsidize this now. What happened to their benchmarking salaries now when the private sector takes the hit....double standards!!!

Oh this is great for venting frustration at the system...if only a canvaser would call to my door so I can have my say....none as yet and only a week to go!!

Officer Giggles

liammur wrote: »

No.
PS should never match private sector wages at the higher end. Bertie ahern was spouting this bull**** too, and led the coutry to ruin in the process awarding himself something like 13 pay rises. Leave the PS and go private if money is the priority. See can they make the grade.
I didn't see E Sheehy or Goggin in court, but I did see them walk away with a couple of million. Some of our politicians are probably envious and feel their golden handshake was inadequate after all the years of service to the state.

its the likes of that s**t that really annoys me, what f**king company is going to hire half the people in the dail let alone bertie and pay him the sort of money he was on, sure he wouldnt be able to get paid i suppose seeing as he couldnt open a bank account