Fine Gael pledge to reverse the ban on stag hunting

Bagmagnet

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0216/1224289929206.html

ppink

Just to advise all that Fine Gael will be reversing the Stag Hunting Ban immediately if they get into power (pg 26 of their manifesto); confirmed to me by email.
the good news is they are very serious about updating animal welfare legislation

Dont know what your views are on stag hunting but it is nature.






(mods move or delete if you dont think this is relevant here)

steddyeddy

http://www.breakingnews.ie/election/news/kenny-has-blood-on-his-hands-says-anti-hunt-protester-494031.html

I consider this regression, I wont be voting for fine gael as a result.

Mothman

I have merged a number of posts on this issue into one thread.

steddyeddy

Apologies I didnt notice the other thread about it. All the same I cant believe this is being reversed. Were heading back to barbarity.

steddyeddy

ppink wrote: »

Just to advise all that Fine Gael will be reversing the Stag Hunting Ban immediately if they get into power (pg 26 of their manifesto); confirmed to me by email.
the good news is they are very serious about updating animal welfare legislation

Dont know what your views are on stag hunting but it is nature.






(mods move or delete if you dont think this is relevant here)

Bringing back hunting isnt a good sign of being intrested in animal welfare!

Alun

steddyeddy wrote: »

Bringing back hunting isnt a good sign of being intrested in animal welfare!

Yes, the two statements don't exactly seem to agree with each other do they. In any case, assuming they don't get an overall majority, they'd still need to convince the other parties, and I don't see Labour agreeing with it.

magicbastarder

i thought labour opposed the stag hunting ban when it went in front of the dail?

steddyeddy

magicbastarder wrote: »

i thought labour opposed the stag hunting ban when it went in front of the dail?

Yes they did as did some people in fine gael.

magicbastarder

sounds like it'll be overturned either way. even if labour were just playing politics first time round, and voting against the government for the sake of it, i'd say the repeal of the law will proceed - it won't be considered a big enough issue, and labour won't want to look silly by reversing their position.

Mothman

steddyeddy wrote: »

Apologies I didnt notice the other thread about it. All the same I cant believe this is being reversed. Were heading back to barbarity.

No apology needed. The other thread had been deleted so you could not see it.

Half-cocked

To be honest, there are far more serious threats to our natural heritage than the hunting of a few captive bred stags. I personally find stag hunting cruel, but too much time was wasted on the bill while other far more pressing issues were ignored. Its a bit pathetic that more time will now be wasted removing the ban. The welfare of a few individual animals is being given far more importance than the overall protection and conservation of our natural environment.

magicbastarder

i know someone who grew up out where the ward hunt operated. a *lot* of locals there had no time for the hunt, despite the image that some groups would like to peddle that it's an urban vs. rural debate; there were a lot of complaints about the behaviour of the hunt members which i'm not going to detail here.

steddyeddy

Yes there are many locals who have no time for it, as well the hunts seem to go through peoples land causing damage.

Birdnuts

Half-cocked wrote: »

. The welfare of a few individual animals is being given far more importance than the overall protection and conservation of our natural environment.

Well said - I'd be far more worried by what FG will do in the ministries of Agriculture and Environment given their record in previous governments and the appaling record of FG dominated CC's in the area of planning etc.:(

steddyeddy

Birdnuts wrote: »

Well said - I'd be far more worried by what FG will do in the ministries of Agriculture and Environment given their record in previous governments and the appaling record of FG dominated CC's in the area of planning etc.:(

To tell the truth I would be more worried about what the eu will do to farming, I think fine gael want to invest in agriculture. I worry what sort of improved animal protection will be implimented because lets face it, after the golden eagle debaucle we need it.

magicbastarder

Birdnuts wrote: »

the appaling record of FG dominated CC's in the area of planning etc.:(

to be fair, the general gist i got from chaos at the crossroads by james nix and frank mcdonald was that FF set about dismantling protections introduced, or generally rowing back on policies, of the rainbow coalition.

that said, nothing will be seen to be able to stand in the way of economic progress now. it'll become a battering ram to overcome any and all objections.

Birdnuts

steddyeddy wrote: »

To tell the truth I would be more worried about what the eu will do to farming, I think fine gael want to invest in agriculture. .

FG voting record at EU and national level suggest they strongly favour big agri business over the interests of small farmers and the rural environment. They are none too keen at reforming the CAP eithier:(

ppink

steddyeddy wrote: »

Bringing back hunting isnt a good sign of being intrested in animal welfare!

Ha! yes i did email that back to them but FG must have plenty of votes as they just said they would pass it to their "spokesperson".


I do agree it is small in the overall scheme of things, only one hunt doing it, but if we go backwards on this it makes legislation even more of an ass than it already is........in one year and out the next!

I looked up an interview on you tube that tv3 did with Ward Union where their man said the stag is released and 20mins later the hounds are released and that they chase the scent not the stag..........so why not drag hunt, that way it is all prearranged with farmers and locals, no stags or hounds running through schools or gardens. seems like basic common sense to me

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

ppink wrote: »

Ha! yes i did email that back to them but FG must have plenty of votes as they just said they would pass it to their "spokesperson".


I do agree it is small in the overall scheme of things, only one hunt doing it, but if we go backwards on this it makes legislation even more of an ass than it already is........in one year and out the next!

I looked up an interview on you tube that tv3 did with Ward Union where their man said the stag is released and 20mins later the hounds are released and that they chase the scent not the stag..........so why not drag hunt, that way it is all prearranged with farmers and locals, no stags or hounds running through schools or gardens. seems like basic common sense to me

Small stuff indeed. What about the failure of FF to honour our commitments to SPAs - abetted by the Greens in the last government?

harryd2

no vote for FG due to this step backwards

steddyeddy

ppink wrote: »

Ha! yes i did email that back to them but FG must have plenty of votes as they just said they would pass it to their "spokesperson".


I do agree it is small in the overall scheme of things, only one hunt doing it, but if we go backwards on this it makes legislation even more of an ass than it already is........in one year and out the next!

I looked up an interview on you tube that tv3 did with Ward Union where their man said the stag is released and 20mins later the hounds are released and that they chase the scent not the stag..........so why not drag hunt, that way it is all prearranged with farmers and locals, no stags or hounds running through schools or gardens. seems like basic common sense to me

Yes a lot of what the hunt masters say are either lies or downright ignorance, they dont chase the scent they chase the stag which has scent. Another classic is the fox/stag/whatever isnt afraid and in his element, a fox/stag's natural enemy is not twenty hounds and a few men on horses!

recedite

Half-cocked wrote: »

too much time was wasted on the bill while other far more pressing issues were ignored. Its a bit pathetic that more time will now be wasted removing the ban. The welfare of a few individual animals is being given far more importance than the overall protection and conservation of our natural environment.

Time was wasted? The hysterical ranting of R.I.S.E. and a few TD's in opposing the bill is the only thing that wasted any time.
Legislation tightening up the law on eagle poisonings slipped through very easily because there was little or no opposition to it.

If it was simply the case that the hunting of captive stags was too unimportant a matter to waste time on, in these days of the IMF intervention, then why bother having a policy to overturn the ban?

The reason is simple. RISE made it a big issue by erroneously declaring that fishing, shooting and hunting would be next on the list for banning.
The combined voting power of all these angry people is what FG have their eye on.

johngalway

recedite wrote: »

RISE made it a big issue by erroneously declaring that fishing, shooting and hunting would be next on the list for banning.

Untrue. RISE were quite correct in their analysis of the situation. I'm constantly amused that some people seem to think these anti groups will simply fold up and go away at the banning of stag hunting. Groups out there want the lot gone, and people are more clued in than to swallow the BS lines that were put forward with a look to conquering and dividing the hunting/shooting community.

Not. Going. To. Happen.

Sonovagun

This is good news for rural folk who have seen the Greens ruin their weekly and local sporting/social event.

Fine Gael have obviously made their decision on the mood the electorate.

I welcome the news

magicbastarder

johngalway wrote: »

Untrue. RISE were quite correct in their analysis of the situation. I'm constantly amused that some people seem to think these anti groups will simply fold up and go away at the banning of stag hunting. Groups out there want the lot gone, and people are more clued in than to swallow the BS lines that were put forward with a look to conquering and dividing the hunting/shooting community.

Not. Going. To. Happen.

he didn't say that there weren't groups who would want those activities banned, he said that it was erroneous to conclude that hunting, fishing and shooting would soon follow. do you honestly think that any government in ireland would ban fishing?

recedite

johngalway wrote: »

Untrue. RISE were quite correct in their analysis of the situation. I'm constantly amused that some people seem to think these anti groups will simply fold up and go away at the banning of stag hunting. Groups out there want the lot gone, and people are more clued in than to swallow the BS lines that were put forward with a look to conquering and dividing the hunting/shooting community.

Not. Going. To. Happen.

Sonovagun wrote: »

This is good news for rural folk who have seen the Greens ruin their weekly and local sporting/social event.

Fine Gael have obviously made their decision on the mood the electorate.

I welcome the news

Just proves my point.

johngalway

magicbastarder wrote: »

do you honestly think that any government in ireland would ban fishing?

Anything is possible with the wrong people influencing the wrong type of people in Government. So, yes, it's possible.

recedite wrote: »

Just proves my point.

Right, so there are no campaigns ongoing to ban coursing, hunting foxes & rabbits with hounds, using terriers, snaring etc?

None at all? And no member of any anti stag hunting group is involved in any of those campaigns, right? Is that your position?

And it's of course ludicrous to think if those activities get banned that shooting, fishing, live export of farm animals etc would be their next target?

Yep. It's all nonsense folks, put the blinkers on, close the eyes, stick your fingers in your ears and hum a happy tune. Sure we're all grand.

magicbastarder

from what i understand, the green party's stance on hunting muntjac was not that it was just tolerated, but that it is welcome. and they're the closest to the 'loony green brigade' that we're likely to see in government for several terms yet.

who in government do you think or worry is going to implement a ban on fishing? i think you have a bit of a siege mentality when there ain't no siege.

johngalway

magicbastarder wrote: »

who in government do you think or worry is going to implement a ban on fishing? i think you have a bit of a siege mentality when there ain't no siege.

There's no siege mentality when you're not the one under siege. Go back a few years and there was still Ward Union Hunt, centrefire target pistol shooting was also banned.

Shooting is generally towards the thick end of the wedge. But, just because I'm a shooter doesn't mean I don't recognize the danger of letting other activities fall.

It's not about what may happen NOW, it's what may happen in the FUTURE and bringing people together to avoid that happening.

ppink

johngalway wrote: »

Anything is possible with the wrong people influencing the wrong type of people in Government. So, yes, it's possible.



Right, so there are no campaigns ongoing to ban coursing, hunting foxes & rabbits with hounds, using terriers, snaring etc?

.

Yes there are campaigns for everything and everything can be taken to extremes ie fishing and shooting ban

Most people I know would like to see coursing, hunting stag and fox with dogs and badger baiting never happen again but nobody I know has an issue with shooting.

It is the torture element that most have the issue with, especially when it is unnecessary like the stag. One could argue all day about fox being vermin etc but a Stag.....whats that argument i wonder?

Anyway from listening to Enda on Pat Kenny today he will not be backing down on reversing the ban.

goz83

It would make more sense to remove the ban on hunting politicians. Now theres a reason to purchase a bow and arrow.

dynamick

A nice summary of the story behind the RISE/stag hunt ban is here:
http://www.tribune.ie/news/article/2010/jul/04/the-achilles-heel-of-the-hunt/

johngalway

ppink wrote: »

Most people I know would like to see coursing, hunting stag and fox with dogs and badger baiting never happen again but nobody I know has an issue with shooting YET.

The above edit being my point.

By the by, as far as I know badger baiting had been outlawed for many years.

steddyeddy

When the more bloodthirsty among us can threathen tds with the loss of their seats so they can torment an animal I can only imagine the "progress" the protection of the birds of prey we will see.

steddyeddy

johngalway wrote: »

The above edit being my point.

By the by, as far as I know badger baiting had been outlawed for many years.

Yes badger baiting is outlawed.

ppink

johngalway wrote: »

The above edit being my point.

By the by, as far as I know badger baiting had been outlawed for many years.

to outlaw shooting would surely mean that slaughter for all animals for food would also have to stop....it is hard to justify one and not the other. They are mostly shot aren't they?


Badger baiting is still ongoing according to ISPCA. not legal I know but still happening apparently....back to the torture thing again

steddyeddy

ppink wrote: »

to outlaw shooting would surely mean that slaughter for all animals for food would also have to stop....it is hard to justify one and not the other. They are mostly shot aren't they?

The main point there is "for food", when tribes hunt game its for food, not the desire to kill. We all cause the death of animals but there is a massive difference between someone eating to fuel metabolisim and someone killing because they enjoy the death of an animal or the pursuit which leads to its death. I have no problem with hunting as long as the animal is eaten and it is not an endangered species or culling to protect the species in the long wrong. What I think is barbaric however is someone going out with the intention of killing as much as possible and then expecting me to think their normal when they say " I cant wait to blow an animal to bits" sorry but thats not civilisation. Having said that the vast majority ( i hope) of huntersshoot for the meat and not the desire to inflict suffering ala ted bundy.

Badger baiting is still ongoing according to ISPCA. not legal I know but still happening apparently....back to the torture thing again

Its is still going on, I reported a case of it happening recently to the ispca.

magicbastarder

johngalway wrote: »

The above edit being my point.

so you're getting worked up over a hypothetical situation.
there is no serious campaign, and i doubt there ever has been, of people who are seeking to ban hunting animals with guns for food. as i mentioned, there are plenty of 'greens' who see shooting of some animals as a necessity. i think you're jumping at shadows.

steddyeddy

johngalway wrote: »

The above edit being my point.

By the by, as far as I know badger baiting had been outlawed for many years.

Theres no campaign against hunting for food or necessity, i dont think there will be one either.

kildare.17hmr

steddyeddy wrote: »

The main point there is "for food", when tribes hunt game its for food, not the desire to kill. We all cause the death of animals but there is a massive difference between someone eating to fuel metabolisim and someone killing because they enjoy the death of an animal or the pursuit which leads to its death. I have no problem with hunting as long as the animal is eaten and it is not an endangered species or culling to protect the species in the long wrong. What I think is barbaric however is someone going out with the intention of killing as much as possible and then expecting me to think their normal when they say " I cant wait to blow an animal to bits" sorry but thats not civilisation. Having said that the vast majority ( i hope) of huntersshoot for the meat and not the desire to inflict suffering ala ted bundy.



Its is still going on, I reported a case of it happening recently to the ispca.

If people who hunt didnt enjoy the thrill of the stalk or persuit as you put it we wouldnt do it. I dont know any1 that shoots that takes pleasure in the death if thats what you were getting at. the way we might talk sometimes might seem to others like it is that way but its not that its the whole thing from puttin on your boots in the mornin to havin a few rabbits or a deer or whatever skinned at the end of the day.
I agree with johngalway any1 who thinks these people will stop at stag hunting or hunting with hounds is kiddin themselves. personally i wouldnt be into the stag hunt but i think its a good step for the fieldsports comunity as a whole.

kildare.17hmr

steddyeddy wrote: »

Theres no campaign against hunting for food or necessity, i dont think there will be one either.

http://www.banbloodsports.com/ ongoing campagin against all things hunting

steddyeddy

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

If people who hunt didnt enjoy the thrill of the stalk or persuit as you put it we wouldnt do it. I dont know any1 that shoots that takes pleasure in the death if thats what you were getting at. the way we might talk sometimes might seem to others like it is that way but its not that its the whole thing from puttin on your boots in the mornin to havin a few rabbits or a deer or whatever skinned at the end of the day.
I agree with johngalway any1 who thinks these people will stop at stag hunting or hunting with hounds is kiddin themselves. personally i wouldnt be into the stag hunt but i think its a good step for the fieldsports comunity as a whole.

That is what im getting at, if the animal isnt killed to be eaten or out of nescessity why else would they be killed?

Listen I know people who hunt deer for food, there is no way I would class them any where near people who watch a fox getting torn to death by dogs.

steddyeddy

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

http://www.banbloodsports.com/ ongoing campagin against all things hunting

Do you think everyone concerned about animal welfare is against hunting for food?

steddyeddy

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

If people who hunt didnt enjoy the thrill of the stalk or persuit as you put it we wouldnt do it. I dont know any1 that shoots that takes pleasure in the death if thats what you were getting at. the way we might talk sometimes might seem to others like it is that way but its not that its the whole thing from puttin on your boots in the mornin to havin a few rabbits or a deer or whatever skinned at the end of the day.
I agree with johngalway any1 who thinks these people will stop at stag hunting or hunting with hounds is kiddin themselves. personally i wouldnt be into the stag hunt but i think its a good step for the fieldsports comunity as a whole.

by the way there are no "these people" hunting and other blood sports are vastly different. Im ok with hunting for food but hunting for the pleasure of killing is indicative of a troubled mind.

ppink

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

http://www.banbloodsports.com/ ongoing campagin against all things hunting

I cannot find anywhere on that site where they are trying to ban shooting. Everything i see on there is torture based, can you link the shooting part please?

steddyeddy

ppink wrote: »

I cannot find anywhere on that site where they are trying to ban shooting. Everything i see on there is torture based, can you link the shooting part please?

Yes I agree

kildare.17hmr

steddyeddy wrote: »

by the way there are no "these people" hunting and other blood sports are vastly different. Im ok with hunting for food but hunting for the pleasure of killing is indicative of a troubled mind.

when i say these people i mean the people who pushed for the stag hunting ban in the first place

nix84

steddyeddy wrote: »

http://www.breakingnews.ie/election/news/kenny-has-blood-on-his-hands-says-anti-hunt-protester-494031.html

I consider this regression, I wont be voting for fine gael as a result.

Totally agree. They were getiing my vote but as soon as I heard this I quickly changed. We don't need people who approve of torturing animals running our country thank you!

steddyeddy

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

when i say these people i mean the people who pushed for the stag hunting ban in the first place

Well in fairness I have a problem with the number of healthy stags killed, a lot of whom were killed for sport and not food.

kildare.17hmr

Renewed appeal to Coillte to protect wildlife
22 October 2010
ICABS has renewed its appeal to state-owned forestry company, Coillte, to act to prevent hunters and hounds from persecuting wildlife in its forests. We have also urged the company to stop licensing hunting on its land.
Responding to a request from ICABS for the names of "any hunting clubs (e.g. foxhunts, mink hunts, hare hunts) that currently have permission to hunt in Coillte property", a company spokesperson said that there are a "small number of licence agreements in place with some clubs" but that Coillte is not in a position to disclose the details.
He also stated that many hunt clubs continue to traverse its forests, repeating an earlier company claim that Coillte "do not have control over this activity". ICABS believes that, in the absence of so-called sporting rights, Coillte is in a strong position to prevent such hunts from accessing its property.
In our latest appeal to Coillte to prevents hunters and hounds from terrorising wildlife, we pointed to Section 23 of the Forest Act 1988 (Section 37) Bye Laws 2009 which makes it clear that "A person shall not injure or otherwise interfere with any wildlife on Coillte lands, but nothing in this Bye-law shall affect Bye-law 17." Bye-law 17 refers to firearms and states that "A person shall not bring onto Coillte lands or use any firearm, as defined in section 4 of the Firearms and Offensive Weapons Act 1990 (No. 12 of 1990), except with the permission of Coillte (a) for competitions approved by Coillte, and b) for practice for such approved competitions."
In a Recreational Hunting page on its website, Coillte describes hunting and stalking as "some of the oldest forms of ‘forest recreation’", adding that "Coillte currently licence a large proportion of its forest estate for the recreational hunting and shooting of wild game, deer and other quarry species, by individuals, clubs / syndicates and commercial shoot operators."
ACTION ALERT Please urge Coillte to make its forests off limits to hunters and give protection to the resident wildlife

from their website wanting a ban on the hunting of deer.