Reclaim our Natural Resources - end the recession!

mute101

Does anyone think it's strange that the issue of 'renegotiating the deals and licences for our natural resources' has been abandoned totally by the main parties and the mainstream media?
Taking into account that the deal was done in cloudy enough circumstances by a less than reputable character. And seeing that the deal is 'Renegotiable', what is the issue?
It's not as if we are flush with cash! Big politicians worried about losing face in Europe. Well f**k Europe, you are answerable to the Irish people first!!!

Monty Burnz

There is the small matter of legality. And there's no way that you could end the recession
a) with the amount of oil and gas that is known to exist and
b) in any sort of short time scale

Exploitation of oil and gas is measured in decades, not months.

mute101

Monty Burnz wrote: »

There is the small matter of legality. And there's no way that you could end the recession
a) with the amount of oil and gas that is known to exist and
b) in any sort of short time scale

Exploitation of oil and gas is measured in decades, not months.

Legality? You mean the fact that the current deal has written in terms allowing us to renegotiate? With no financial or legal implications to us.

a) €400Bn worth in the corrib field alone. Rumoured of up to 20 similar sites (wikileaks)

b)An Bord Pleanála granted final stage planning permission on 29th January for the Corrib field. This is not a new development.

RichardAnd

mute101 wrote: »

Legality? You mean the fact that the current deal has written in terms allowing us to renegotiate? With no financial or legal implications to us.

a) €400Bn worth in the corrib field alone. Rumoured of up to 20 similar sites (wikileaks)

b)An Bord Pleanála granted final stage planning permission on 29th January for the Corrib field. This is not a new development.

400 odd billions just waiting for us to take it eh. And another 20 sites which could possibly be worth a collective 8 trillion (nearly half the number of US dollars in existence). Some how I think we'd see more oil companies here if even one of these sites was as bountiful as you claim.

What you need to grasp is that there may, MAY, be oil reserves worth money somewhere near Ireland but if there are, they are not exactly big chests of money waiting for someone to open them. Drilling for oil takes years, decades of work and all that means big spending that doesn't start to pay off until the juice flows.

Just so you know, the issue of oil reserves comes up about once a month on these boards and seems to have done so for some years now.

mute101

'on these boards'............ what boards?
Only Gerry Adams and the parties on the left address this issue.
Mainstream media, not a whisper.
Any vested interest in oil/gas exploration i wonder?

400 billin eh?
so people still believe believe everything they read in the irish independent newspaper??
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/ireland-on-the-verge-of-an-oil-and-gas-bonanza-679889.html

its a freakin rag of a newspaper, advising us to buy houses still!! FF links too

mute101

Haha, I wouldnt believe anything Tony O Reilly has to say about oil ;-)

Monty Burnz

This magical money tree solution will not work. Ask an expert in the area and they will explain why not. Otherwise, don't you think we'd have done it years ago?

mute101

I just think we've been taken advantage of on this issue.

Colm Rapple has a lot to say on it which i find interesting.

I have also organised a talk about it if anyone else is interested in it too.. You can read about it at RealityIreland.com

Monty Burnz

I do think that the deals signed were a little dodgy - especially considering who represented us. But we can't row back on them now - the law is the law.

mute101

It's within the law to negotiate the deals and licences though.

Monty Burnz

mute101 wrote: »

It's within the law to negotiate the deals and licences though.

If it can be done, I'm all for it - up to the point where it scares off the oil companies without whom the resources are just sitting miles underground, unusable. But I will restate, the returns from this will be a small fraction of what the resources are nominally 'worth' and it will be years before any benefit arises from them.

As an aside, I recall that the way that striking oil can ruin a society or an economy was an interesting case study we looked at in secondary school economics. Many gulf states are destroyed by it, when the oil runs out, they are totally goosed. Hence Dubai's desperate attempt to diversify into a tourist and financial centre - their oil is nearly gone. Norway is a case study in how to benefit.

clouds

Didn't Norway have their own state oil company?

Monty Burnz

clouds wrote: »

Didn't Norway have their own state oil company?

Yes - Statoil. (State Oil, presumably - my Norwegian is ropey though)

clouds

Well, why can't we then? Oil exploitation is a long term game, couldn't we train up our people, invest in the infrastructure and set up our own, as Norway did.

That's quite possibly a simplistic view - I don't know much on this topic - but surely Norway's sensible management of their resources show it can be done?

Monty Burnz

clouds wrote: »

That's quite possibly a simplistic view - I don't know much on this topic - but surely Norway's sensible management of their resources show it can be done?

Based on what you've seen in the last 10 years, and how Ireland is governed, and how the corrupt prosper and are protected, are you sure we could do it? I'm sure as a long-long-term project, we have the people - but do we have the leadership?

Also bear in mind that it is massively capital intensive, and quite speculative. There are no sure things in oil exploration and exploitation, except that things will go wrong.

clouds

When you put it like that...

It's a sin that we can't be trusted to mind our own sweeties

Duke Leonal Felmet

This is the third such thread in a very short time...

clouds

I had put in a snappy comment here but decided against it

mute101

Monty Burnz wrote: »

If it can be done, I'm all for it - up to the point where it scares off the oil companies without whom the resources are just sitting miles underground, unusable. But I will restate, the returns from this will be a small fraction of what the resources are nominally 'worth' and it will be years before any benefit arises from them.

As an aside, I recall that the way that striking oil can ruin a society or an economy was an interesting case study we looked at in secondary school economics. Many gulf states are destroyed by it, when the oil runs out, they are totally goosed. Hence Dubai's desperate attempt to diversify into a tourist and financial centre - their oil is nearly gone. Norway is a case study in how to benefit.

Dublin, 5th March 2008

Energy Minister Eamon Ryan announced today that, following a detailed evaluation by his Department of the applications received under the Porcupine Licensing Round, four Frontier Exploration Licences have been awarded.

Licences over areas totalling 4,963 square kilometres are being offered to the following groups:

● ExxonMobil, Providence Resources and Sosina Exploration – two licences.
● Island Oil and Gas and Supernova Ireland Resources BV
● Providence Resources, Sosina Exploration and Challenger Minerals

There is plenty of interest in our oil. And them lads know exactly what we have. With the technology (sonar amongst others) they use now they can easily tell what is available under the ground.
Oil has destroyed some countries yes but most were all dictator States and that was the real cause of unrest I think. Let the people benefit from the resources while continue to invest in other sectors at the same time.

th3 s1aught3r

clouds wrote: »

Didn't Norway have their own state oil company?

Doesnt Norway own the Corrib gas now ?

Nody

clouds wrote: »

Well, why can't we then? Oil exploitation is a long term game, couldn't we train up our people, invest in the infrastructure and set up our own, as Norway did.

That's quite possibly a simplistic view - I don't know much on this topic - but surely Norway's sensible management of their resources show it can be done?

Brazil, which has recently confirmed huge new oil finds are now offering Norweigan oil workers more money to work on their oil fields then they would make in Norway to get their expertise. Brazil expects to need over 200.000 people in total and has to do this with confirmed large oil finds (i.e. they will have work for years to come).

What do you expect the Irish state to do with small finds in difficult locations of dubious size and the money to pay for all of this before even a drop comes up?

mute101

And here is some interesting viewing on oil companies. Remember, oil companies (amongst other large corporations) have individually more wealth and a lot of individual countries. Corporations can get laws changed in their favour because essentially most countries are broke!! He has has the money has the power in this world.

http://www.realityireland.com/news/spending-our-new-found-wealth/

mute101

Nody wrote: »

Brazil, which has recently confirmed huge new oil finds are now offering Norweigan oil workers more money to work on their oil fields then they would make in Norway to get their expertise. Brazil expects to need over 200.000 people in total and has to do this with confirmed large oil finds; what do you expect the Irish state to do with small finds in difficult locations of dubious size and the money to pay for all of this before even a drop comes up?

Its just about renegotiating the deal we have! They can keep the licence but pay a fair price!
Colm Rapple states that in a detailed report done by the department, it estimated in the region of 10 Billion barrels of oil we have off the west coast, and that was a conservative estimate.
We are being fleeced people, lets finally think for ourselves here!

Norway Gov bought 2 billion shares in Shell. Their people will benefit more financially from our oil than the Irish people will.

Duke Leonal Felmet

mute101 wrote: »

Dublin, 5th March 2008

Energy Minister Eamon Ryan announced today that, following a detailed evaluation by his Department of the applications received under the Porcupine Licensing Round, four Frontier Exploration Licences have been awarded.

Licences over areas totalling 4,963 square kilometres are being offered to the following groups:

● ExxonMobil, Providence Resources and Sosina Exploration – two licences.
● Island Oil and Gas and Supernova Ireland Resources BV
● Providence Resources, Sosina Exploration and Challenger Minerals

There is plenty of interest in our oil. And them lads know exactly what we have. With the technology (sonar amongst others) they use now they can easily tell what is available under the ground.
Oil has destroyed some countries yes but most were all dictator States and that was the real cause of unrest I think. Let the people benefit from the resources while continue to invest in other sectors at the same time.

Where do you propose that we come up with the signficant cost of exploring prospects, most of which will be empty holes, all while dealing the real issues at hand in our economy today? It's like saying all our problems could be solved by throwing our years tax revenue on '7' in roulette. Yes, we could win big if we strike oil/gas, but we are more likely to lose money trying to find it over many years. All while schools fall apart, hospitals resources are stretched, etc. As was said numerous times in the other two threads, why not let the experts do the searching, tax the profits, and if a big find comes along we can look at making a Statoil, just like Norway did. As it stands, we are nowhere near that position. Better to spend the money we have on pressing issues.

clouds

Nody wrote: »

What do you expect the Irish state to do with small finds in difficult locations of dubious size and the money to pay for all of this before even a drop comes up?

Like I said Nody I'm no expert, but what I'd expect is careful careful consideration of what's hopefully there, risk benefit analyses, etc. Not just take Ray Burkes word that Shell are a great bunch of lads and let them crack away for the price of a holiday home in Florida or whatever

whatstherush

clouds wrote: »

Not just take Ray Burkes word that Shell are a great bunch of lads and let them crack away for the price of a holiday home in Florida or whatever

Shell had no involvement with Corrib until 2002, why would Ray Burke have taken a bribe from them in 1987

mute101

whatstherush wrote: »

Shell had no involvement with Corrib until 2002, why would Ray Burke have taken a bribe from them in 1987

No, the oil companies would never do 'their homework' before exploring. Come on man, stop being so naive. Have you listened to this guy yet???
http://www.realityireland.com/news/spending-our-new-found-wealth/


And all im saying to do is to renegotiate the laws now, we are allowed do it, its build into the contract. We wont be putting any money in, just making sure we benefit best when the oil is being brought to shore.

You might be interested in Fianna Fails response to the question 'If in government, would you renegotiate the current deals surrounding Ireland’s oil and gas resources to provide the people of Ireland with a greater return? What changes to the current system would you implement?

"It is not possible to revoke or change contracts halfway through. To do so would have significant implications for the reputation of the State across a range of businesses."


It IS possible!! And clarify what you mean by 'significant implications for the reputation of the State' please? It's in the contract. Does that not free us from 'significant implications for the reputation of the State'. Who's interests mainly are these 'range of businesses'? Its nothing to do with oil anyway as we 'the people' dont benefit at all basically!!

whatstherush

mute101 wrote: »

No, the oil companies would never do 'their homework' before exploring. Come on man, stop being so naive.

Thats some homework, giving a bribe 15 years before you expect a pay off.
And you call me naive.

Scofflaw

Its nothing to do with oil anyway as we 'the people' dont benefit at all basically!!

Apart, obviously, from taxing the profits of the field at 25%, and the profits of the company at 25%. Apart from that, what have oil companies ever done for us?

amused,
Scofflaw

clouds

Scofflaw wrote: »

Apart, obviously, from taxing the profits of the field at 25%, and the profits of the company at 25%. Apart from that, what have oil companies ever done for us?

amused,
Scofflaw

When you've finished laughing Scofflaw can you explain what's the difference between the profits of the 'field' and the 'company'.
And why 25%? I though the 12.5% rate was what all the commotion is about.

Scofflaw

clouds wrote: »

When you've finished laughing Scofflaw can you explain what's the difference between the profits of the 'field' and the 'company'.

Profits from the field are profits earned directly from the sale of gas from Corrib. Profits from the company are profits on any other operations of the company in Ireland.

clouds wrote: »

And why 25%? I though the 12.5% rate was what all the commotion is about.

The 12.5% rate doesn't apply to certain companies or types of earnings. If the earnings of a company are from sources like dividends or petroleum exploitation profits, the company pays 25% corporation tax. The 25% profit tax on the field is separate to that.

cordially,
Scofflaw

clouds

Thanks for that.

Though the 25% tax on company profits does not directly relate to the Western gasfield really so shouldn't be included as a benefit accrued to the people from that.

Scofflaw

clouds wrote: »

Thanks for that.

Though the 25% tax on company profits does not directly relate to the Western gasfield really so shouldn't be included as a benefit accrued to the people from that.

That's a fair point.

cordially,
Scofflaw

mute101

whatstherush wrote: »

Thats some homework, giving a bribe 15 years before you expect a pay off.
And you call me naive.

They didnt expect the Rossport 5 and co to put up such a struggle and delay things so much, especially with all the 'local' bribes they handed out. Im not being naive about this.

Duke Leonal Felmet

mute101 wrote: »

They didnt expect the Rossport 5 and co to put up such a struggle and delay things so much, especially with all the 'local' bribes they handed out. Im not being naive about this.

zzzzzz