Appealing DART fines.

Namaste2u

I'm looking for advice for appealing a DART fine. Here is what happened:

No one was at the ticket counter, it was raining and cold and I saw the DART about to leave so I ran for it (gate was open) so I wouldn't miss it. I thought this wouldn't be a problem as Ive previously had to pay at my destination and I have evidence for it (little slip with reference number, amount paid etc). Also ticket inspectors used to have money and ticket dispensers at hand for people to pay there and then, no problem, except I had no idea they changed the rules. This time the ticket inspector was having none of it, I tried to explain to him that I had money at hand to pay there and then or at the destination, but he refused and handed me a 100e fine for fare evasion, even though I tried to pay and did indeed pay at my destination.

So what are my chances for appealing, and can you give me any advice?

Mr. Presentable

Sadly for you, the only advice is get to the station on time and buy a ticket.

schemingbohemia

There are many many threads on this. You will not succeed in appealing as the only grounds for appeal are if there was no-one at the ticket counter and the machine was broken - neither of which apply to you.

There are signs all over the DARTs and DART stations warning people that they must have a ticket prior to getting on the trains.

My advice, pay up and learn from this.

Namaste2u

schemingbohemia wrote: »

There are many many threads on this. You will not succeed in appealing as the only grounds for appeal are if there was no-one at the ticket counter and the machine was broken - neither of which apply to you.

There are signs all over the DARTs and DART stations warning people that they must have a ticket prior to getting on the trains.

My advice, pay up and learn from this.

Thanks for the advice, the was no one at the counter but I guess you're right about the machine, should've taken waiting over a 100e fine. Thought I could pay on the dart like I though you could still do

DWCommuter

Namaste2u wrote: »

Thanks for the advice, the was no one at the counter but I guess you're right about the machine, should've taken waiting over a 100e fine. Thought I could pay on the dart like I though you could still do

Pay the fine. Move on. You got caught out by Irish Rails legitimate, (not actually sure now) but poorly advertised massive shift in policy. I note the very expensive Inter City TV Ad campaign is still ongoing. (Intercity is dead) It might serve commuter customers better if Irish Rail diverted some spend to running a TV/Radio campaign highlighting their policy change. Poster campaigns in busy on the run commuter stations are pointless to the non regular user.

L1011

schemingbohemia wrote: »

There are many many threads on this. You will not succeed in appealing as the only grounds for appeal are if there was no-one at the ticket counter and the machine was broken - neither of which apply to you.

...you are not obliged to use the ticket machines if there is nobody at the counter. Detailed in the Irish Rail byelaws quite clearly.

Section 4: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1984/en/si/0109.html - if the booking office is closed you are entitled to board and purchase on-board or at the destination station. A ticket machine is not a "booking office" and yes, ticket machines *did* exist in 1984 - just not touchscreen ones.

Trying to get the trogs on the gates to accept this is, however, another matter.

LXFlyer

MYOB wrote: »

...you are not obliged to use the ticket machines if there is nobody at the counter. Detailed in the Irish Rail byelaws quite clearly.

Section 4: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1984/en/si/0109.html - if the booking office is closed you are entitled to board and purchase on-board or at the destination station. A ticket machine is not a "booking office" and yes, ticket machines *did* exist in 1984 - just not touchscreen ones.

Trying to get the trogs on the gates to accept this is, however, another matter.

Given the high conviction rates I'm not sure that is the case....

NuMarvel

lxflyer wrote: »

Given the high conviction rates I'm not sure that is the case....

That might be because it's not something that someone entered as a defence when the case went to court.

I think the OP should appeal it on the basis of that part of the bye-law, giving as much detail as possible to what time they arrived at the station. The booking office was unattended, there doesn't appear to be any legal imperative to use ticketing machines, and he/she fulfilled his legal obligations by purchasing a ticket at their destination. The very worst that will happen is that IE will reject the appeal, hopefully with a detailed reason as to why. For all I know there may be case law that defines a ticketing machine as part of the booking office, but it's worth a shot anyway.

goingnowhere

You got caught, you broke the law => pay up and don't do it again

The advice here
http://www.railusers.ie/passenger_info/fare_evasion.php
and here
http://www.iarnrodeireann.ie/about_us/pdf/Irish%20Rail%20passenger%20info%20leaflet%20on%20Fixed%20Penalties.pdf

Both say use ticket machine if available

LXFlyer

NuMarvel wrote: »

That might be because it's not something that someone entered as a defence when the case went to court.

I think the OP should appeal it on the basis of that part of the bye-law, giving as much detail as possible to what time they arrived at the station. The booking office was unattended, there doesn't appear to be any legal imperative to use ticketing machines, and he/she fulfilled his legal obligations by purchasing a ticket at their destination. The very worst that will happen is that IE will reject the appeal, hopefully with a detailed reason as to why. For all I know there may be case law that defines a ticketing machine as part of the booking office, but it's worth a shot anyway.

I would find it rather difficult to believe that given the large volume of prosecutions that no legal team would have tried that by now?

NuMarvel

lxflyer wrote: »

I would find it rather difficult to believe that given the large volume of prosecutions that no legal team would have tried that by now?

If everyone engaged a legal team for these matters, then you'd definitely be right. But do we know how many people engage a legal team? For that matter, do we know how many people even turn up for these summonses? Is it possible that the high conviction rates are based on no-shows, particularly if false names and addresses have been given?

These are genuine questions btw, so if you have any links or references, I'd love to have a look.

Losty Dublin

NuMarvel wrote: »

If everyone engaged a legal team for these matters, then you'd definitely be right. But do we know how many people engage a legal team? For that matter, do we know how many people even turn up for these summonses? Is it possible that the high conviction rates are based on no-shows, particularly if false names and addresses have been given?

These are genuine questions btw, so if you have any links or references, I'd love to have a look.

I was talking to a Ticket Inspector over the Christmas and he said that the conviction rate is well over 80% and the average fine levied by a judge is €1,000; is it worth hiring counsel to get off what began at €40 or €50.

If you give over fake or false details they are handed over to the Gardaí and the legal system who are more adept at tracking people down than Irish Rail inspectors.

DWCommuter

MYOB wrote: »

...you are not obliged to use the ticket machines if there is nobody at the counter. Detailed in the Irish Rail byelaws quite clearly.

Section 4: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1984/en/si/0109.html - if the booking office is closed you are entitled to board and purchase on-board or at the destination station. A ticket machine is not a "booking office" and yes, ticket machines *did* exist in 1984 - just not touchscreen ones.

Trying to get the trogs on the gates to accept this is, however, another matter.

And according to Irish Rails web site the above bye laws are still applicable. Bus Eireann also operate off them. It appears both companies have "conditions of travel" that are subject to bye laws, conditions etc. Only Dublin Bus seem to have separate bye laws drafted in 1996.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/About-Us/Dublin-Bus-Bye-Laws/

Is it possible that Irish Rail have conditions of travel that contradict the bye laws?

DWCommuter

goingnowhere wrote: »

You got caught, you broke the law => pay up and don't do it again

The advice here
http://www.railusers.ie/passenger_info/fare_evasion.php
and here
http://www.iarnrodeireann.ie/about_us/pdf/Irish%20Rail%20passenger%20info%20leaflet%20on%20Fixed%20Penalties.pdf

Both say use ticket machine if available

The bye laws make no reference to a ticket machine (only a booking office) and it appears that from the links you provided Irish Rail have decided that a ticket machine is a "form" of booking office and RUI have just gone along with that thinking, like many of us. However on a point of law, the bye law is very specific and considering its dated 1984 when TVMs were not widespread, I find it surprising that it hasn't been ammended.

Personally (and this is just an opinion) I think its worth challenging and I believe you could do it without representation by merely quoting the bye law and asking where the reference to a TVM is in said bye laws and the definition of a booking office. Of course this may lead to a perfectly justified and legally proven response. But I must say that it looks very strange as bye laws need to be very specific or else they are open to challenge and on the face of it, this one looks like it is.

L1011

lxflyer wrote: »

Given the high conviction rates I'm not sure that is the case....

People get convicted due to not knowing the laws that make them innocent all the time. Same way as people pay for private clamping declamps (also illegal here).

L1011

lxflyer wrote: »

I would find it rather difficult to believe that given the large volume of prosecutions that no legal team would have tried that by now?

Who brings a legal team for a case that small? At best it'll be the local will-writer who never manages to win a case and is just there for show, read your local paper for a week and you'll generally find what solicitors these are.

Losty Dublin

MYOB wrote: »

Section 4: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1984/en/si/0109.html - if the booking office is closed you are entitled to board and purchase on-board or at the destination station. A ticket machine is not a "booking office" and yes, ticket machines *did* exist in 1984 - just not touchscreen ones.

The building that houses a ticket machine is a booking office.

NuMarvel

Losty Dublin wrote: »

The building that houses a ticket machine is a booking office.

To be completely pedantic, the Irish Rail leaflet goingnowhere linked to earlier refers to a booking office and ticket vending machines as if they are two seperate entities. So, if this was me in court or appealing the fine to Irish Rail, I'd be making the case that the bye-laws refer only to the booking office with no reference to ticket machines, and as supporting evidence I'd refer to Irish Rail's own literature which implies that the vending machine is sperate and not part of the booking office.

DWCommuter

Losty Dublin wrote: »

The building that houses a ticket machine is a booking office.

As an example - Sallins has a booking office (of sorts) for certain hours in a container in the car park and then one TVM on one particular platform and not the other. Sallins station reopened under the operation of the bye laws. Pay on the train or at the destination because it originally had neither.

L1011

Losty Dublin wrote: »

The building that houses a ticket machine is a booking office.

No its not. A booking office a manned booking office. A TVM in a station, a hut, or exposed on a platform is not a booking office.

Losty Dublin

NuMarvel wrote: »

To be completely pedantic, the Irish Rail leaflet goingnowhere linked to earlier refers to a booking office and ticket vending machines as if they are two seperate entities. So, if this was me in court or appealing the fine to Irish Rail, I'd be making the case that the bye-laws refer only to the booking office with no reference to ticket machines, and as supporting evidence I'd refer to Irish Rail's own literature which implies that the vending machine is sperate and not part of the booking office.

It refers to them as seperate entities, yes. It still doesn't say you can't travel without a ticket (In general; there are a few exceptional case) and it is, in all honesty, pretty simple to understand.

"To quote said leaflet....

4. HOW MUCH IS THE FIXED PENALTY PAYMENT?

If you board a service without a valid ticket, at a station where a ticket selling facility was provided, you will be charged the fixed penalty payment. The payment ranges from €25 to a maximum of €100.

5. IF I DON’T BUY A TICKET BEFORE TRAVELLING, IS IT AN AUTOMATIC PENALTY FARE?

You are responsible for ensuring that you buy a ticket that is valid for your entire journey before travelling. Otherwise you will have to pay the fixed penalty payment.

6. IF THERE IS A QUEUE AT THE TICKET OFFICE OR THE TICKET VENDING MACHINE CAN I BOARD THE TRAIN WITHOUT A VALID TICKET?

No, it is your responsibility to allow yourself reasonable time to buy a ticket before travelling. Ticket vending machines are provided throughout the network at stations in tandem with the facility of buying tickets in advance from the booking office, internet or an accredited ticketing agent. See also answers to questions 1 and 2.

7. CAN I PAY AT MY DESITINATION IF IM IN A RUSH?

No, if you board without a valid ticket then you will be charged with a fixed penalty payment.

8. WHAT IF THE TICKET OFFICE IS CLOSED OR THE TICKET VENDING MACHINES ARE NOT WORKING OR THE STATION HAS NO TICKET OFFICE?

Ticket vending machines are in operation through out our network. These machines are monitored and regularly maintained to ensure that they are operational. However in the event that the booking office is closed and the ticket vending machines are not working, then you will not be charged the Fixed Penalty Payment."

Losty Dublin

MYOB wrote: »

No its not. A booking office a manned booking office. A TVM in a station, a hut, or exposed on a platform is not a booking office.

It doesn't become a non booking office if it's unmanned

DWCommuter

With respect Losty, I think you're struggling to back this one up.:D

Losty Dublin

DWCommuter wrote: »

With respect Losty, I think you're struggling to back this one up.:D

Im not worried about what you think to be honest but can think what you want to, which is invariably negative of anything Irish Rail .

L1011

Losty Dublin wrote: »

It doesn't become a non booking office if it's unmanned

It becomes an unopen booking office then. The building is not a booking office, the ticket hatches are.

The bye laws do not mention TVMs and they most certainly did exist at the time.

Losty Dublin

MYOB wrote: »

It becomes an unopen booking office then. The building is not a booking office, the ticket hatches are.

The bye laws do not mention TVMs and they most certainly did exist at the time.

The bye laws need not mention finicky details on where and how to buy a ticket to travel, be it from a machine, internet, third party, travel pass or a vending machine. What they are doing is describing to you the limited circumstance where you can legally travel with no ticket and only then on the understanding that you pay for your ticket at the earliest chance. I have been told by a ticket inspector that where a vending machine is available as the only way to purchase a ticket then you must use it; I'd trust his word over that of the CIE-nic's here on Boards.ie so do ask one yourself if you don't believe me.

L1011

You're trusting someone in who's interest it is to get more fines issued over those who have actually read the bye laws? Oh dear.

markpb

Losty Dublin wrote: »

I have been told by a ticket inspector that where a vending machine is available as the only way to purchase a ticket then you must use it; I'd trust his word over that of the CIE-nic's here on Boards.ie so do ask one yourself if you don't believe me.

A judge might not agree with the ticket inspectors interpretation of the rules.

What happens if the ticket machine cannot sell you the type of ticket that you need for your trip?

Losty Dublin

markpb wrote: »

A judge might not agree with the ticket inspectors interpretation of the rules.

The rules here in question are Statute Law of Ireland and the court sessions that hear cases on fines mean that the CIE/Luas legals and the sitting justices know what way the law is to be applied, as would the sitting judge.

markpb wrote: »

What happens if the ticket machine cannot sell you the type of ticket that you need for your trip?

The offence is in traveling without a valid ticket so if you don't have one you risk being caught so it's your onus to get one beforehand, whatever it may be.

DWCommuter

Losty Dublin wrote: »

The rules here in question are Statute Law of Ireland and the court sessions that hear cases on fines mean that the CIE/Luas legals and the sitting justices know what way the law is to be applied, as would the sitting judge.



The offence is in traveling without a valid ticket so if you don't have one you risk being caught so it's your onus to get one beforehand, whatever it may be.

The offense is at the behest of Irish Rails conditions of travel. But the defense is possible under the bye laws. I am well versed in how a district court works and this is very easy to challenge. No bye law can be general. It must be specific to the case in point. this one clearly isn't.

Perhaps I should make a point of challenging it? I always put my money where my mouth is, instead of bull****ting my way through an internet thread. I'll come back to you losty, either right or a few hundred quid poorer.

End of me in this thread for now. Thank you and good night!

TheChrisD

Losty Dublin wrote: »

markpb wrote: »

What happens if the ticket machine cannot sell you the type of ticket that you need for your trip?

The offence is in traveling without a valid ticket so if you don't have one you risk being caught so it's your onus to get one beforehand, whatever it may be.

This is where your argument completely falls apart, Losty. I have to travel without a valid ticket quite often as the booking offices at Dunboyne/Docklands/Drumcondra aren't always manned, and as someone who travels on a DSFA pass, I cannot get a ticket from the TVU's.

Does this mean that I am committing an offence when I take my train without a ticket? Nope.

Obviously you may need to brush up on your arguments a bit.

LXFlyer

As I understand it the position is:

If you are able to buy a ticket appropriate to your journey at the station you are departing from (be it from a TVM or Booking Office) then you must do so.

If you cannot buy it (e.g. your choice is unavailable from the machine and the office is closed; or both are not functioning) then you pay at the destination or at the first opportunity if your journey involves more than one train (i.e. at the junction station).

That is the system in a nutshell.

markpb

Losty Dublin wrote: »

The rules here in question are Statute Law of Ireland and the court sessions that hear cases on fines mean that the CIE/Luas legals and the sitting justices know what way the law is to be applied, as would the sitting judge.

That's a nice arrangement you think they have there. The rules are very specific and judges can only enforce what's written in the rules. They don't have "understandings".

The offence is in traveling without a valid ticket so if you don't have one you risk being caught so it's your onus to get one beforehand, whatever it may be.

So if the ticket machine cannot sell the correct type of ticket and IR can't be bothered to staff their ticket offices, what do you suggest people do? Concrete example please.

Losty Dublin

TheChrisD wrote: »

This is where your argument completely falls apart, Losty. I have to travel without a valid ticket quite often as the booking offices at Dunboyne/Docklands/Drumcondra aren't always manned, and as someone who travels on a DSFA pass, I cannot get a ticket from the TVU's.

Does this mean that I am committing an offence when I take my train without a ticket? Nope.

Obviously you may need to brush up on your arguments a bit.

In which case you show your pass to an Inspector or ticket checker and you should be fine.

Losty Dublin

markpb wrote: »

That's a nice arrangement you think they have there. The rules are very specific and judges can only enforce what's written in the rules. They don't have "understandings".

The solicitors and judges who would attend these cases know full well how the Law applies in these cases and they know well when people are in the wrong. There isn't a case of "understandings" as you put it.

markpb wrote: »

So if the ticket machine cannot sell the correct type of ticket and IR can't be bothered to staff their ticket offices, what do you suggest people do? Concrete example please.

It's your responsibility to have the ticket relevant to your trip. If you have issues with this then contact them yourself

L1011

Losty Dublin wrote: »

The solicitors and judges who would attend these cases know full well how the Law applies in these cases and they know well when people are in the wrong. There isn't a case of "understandings" as you put it.

Virtually nobody ever has a solicitor for these cases, and the judges aren't going to bring a potentially external factor in unless it is otherwise raised. If you don't raise it, it won't be an issue.

I'd also suggest that the vast majority of people who end up *in court* over ticket fines are not in a situation of having not used a TVM; they're people who were genuinely fare evading.

Losty Dublin wrote: »

It's your responsibility to have the ticket relevant to your trip. If you have issues with this then contact them yourself

But you are not required to use a TVM to purchase one if there is no open booking office.

There is no way you can spin a TVM to being a booking office. A machine is not an office.

I'd suspect the people that are incorrectly fined by revenue protection in these cases never go to court as the issue is "settled" within IE once their own bye laws are shown to them.

Losty Dublin

MYOB wrote: »

But you are not required to use a TVM to purchase one if there is no open booking office.

http://www.railusers.ie/passenger_info/fare_evasion.php

http://www.iarnrodeireann.ie/about_us/pdf/Irish%20Rail%20passenger%20info%20leaflet%20on%20Fixed%20Penalties.pdf

Both say that you must use a ticket machine if it's the only means handy to buy a ticket. Unless you have definitive information to the contrary.

MYOB wrote: »

Virtually nobody ever has a solicitor for these cases, and the judges aren't going to bring a potentially external factor in unless it is otherwise raised. If you don't raise it, it won't be an issue.

I'd also suggest that the vast majority of people who end up *in court* over ticket fines are not in a situation of having not used a TVM; they're people who were genuinely fare evading.

I'd say you are right in that many of the cases are people who genuinely were wagging a €2 fare but I'd have no doubts that many of them walk past a booking machine and they have been fined and reckon through bad advice that they are in the right. Next time you pass through the stations, perhaps you should ask the staff yourself and see what they say

L1011

Losty Dublin wrote: »

http://www.railusers.ie/passenger_info/fare_evasion.php

http://www.iarnrodeireann.ie/about_us/pdf/Irish%20Rail%20passenger%20info%20leaflet%20on%20Fixed%20Penalties.pdf

Both say that you must use a ticket machine if it's the only means handy to buy a ticket. Unless you have definitive information to the contrary. [

The SI is the definitive information to the contrary.

Losty Dublin wrote: »

I'd say you are right in that many of the cases are people who genuinely were wagging a €2 fare but I'd have no doubts that many of them walk past a booking machine and they have been fined and reckon through bad advice that they are in the right. Next time you pass through the stations, perhaps you should ask the staff yourself and see what they say

There's no "bad advice" here. The SI is the law, and its blatantly clear.

The station staff's job is to maximise revenue and if people will pay incorrect fines, they'll keep issuing them.

Losty Dublin

MYOB wrote: »

The SI is the definitive information to the contrary.

The SI gives you a couple of circumstances where you can travel without a ticket but nowhere does it say that you can travel without a ticket if a ticket machine is the only means of purchasing a ticket.

hatful

My sister successfully 'appealed', she wrote a letter to irish rail explaining her circumstances. She lives abroad and came home last year for a visit. The ticket counter was closed, the ticket machines used to be inside the ticket hall but were moved outside, she didn't know this. So when she got off the dart she went straight over to the nearest employee to pay but he wouldn't listen... :rolleyes: so she just wrote stating that she hasn't been living here for years, didn't know where the ticket booths were and at no point did she try to avoid paying for her ticket, all true and they let her off. It's worth a try.

L1011

Losty Dublin wrote: »

The SI gives you a couple of circumstances where you can travel without a ticket but nowhere does it say that you can travel without a ticket if a ticket machine is the only means of purchasing a ticket.

It does. A ticket machine is not a booking office.

Losty Dublin

MYOB wrote: »

It does. A ticket machine is not a booking office.

Section 4 reads...

4. Where the Board gives notice that a station is unattended or the booking office is closed, or where any person is instructed by an authorised person to board a train at a station without purchasing a ticket at the booking office so as not to delay the departure of the train from the station, any person not in possession of a valid ticket entitling him or her to travel may enter a vehicle at that station for the purpose of travelling but that person must obtain a ticket or other authority from an authorised person on the train as soon as practicable after entering any vehicle or from an authorised person on arrival at the station to which such person is travelling by the train.

Section 4 refers to "any passenger not in possession of a valid ticket entitling him or her to travel". Where there is a ticket machine to hand this has given you the chance to buy a ticket so you have the choice to travel with a "valid ticket" or take your chance; it is only there to cover eventualities when getting your ticket is not possible on the spot.

L1011

"station is unattended or the booking office is closed" is the bit you appear to not want to read.

A TVM is not a booking office or an attendant.

Losty Dublin

MYOB wrote: »

"station is unattended or the booking office is closed" is the bit you appear to not want to read.

A TVM is not a booking office or an attendant.

I have read that bit, several times in fact. I also the rest of the words around it all. Lets put it like this; the context that Irish Rail and the Courts use to prosecute people who don't have tickets isn't the context you read from it. Given that they are legally applying it I'd be inclined to go with their take on it over yours :cool:;)

L1011

Losty Dublin wrote: »

I have read that bit, several times in fact. I also the rest of the words around it all. Lets put it like this; the context that Irish Rail and the Courts use to prosecute people who don't have tickets isn't the context you read from it. Given that they are legally applying it I'd be inclined to go with their take on it over yours :cool:;)

If you can find me even one case where someone lost on the grounds that they didn't use a TVM when it was the only option available, I'd be amazed. These cases don't *get* to court.

Namaste2u

From reading through this thread It would appear that I do indeed have grounds for appeal.

I am not some delinquent who is trying to get away with not paying my fare, I tried to buy a ticket from the inspector yet he refused. As far as I know the current Bye-Laws still stand, which are the very laws that allowed me to buy a ticket at my destination and from an inspector in the past year and last year.

If the Law is so clear and concrete there is no wiggle room, how can I be allowed buy a ticket after I boarded a train one month ago and not a week ago? the law hasn't changed, the inspector shouldn't be allowed to give someone a fine if he/she is in a bad mood or if he/she doesn't like the look of me.

I'm applying for appeal, just typing a letter and sending it the specified address along with appropriate documentation. I'll let you all know what happens.

BrianD

I wouldn't waste your time. Just pay up and move on.

You had the opportunity to pay before boarding and you didn't. Inspectors don't sell tickets. Even if the ticket office was closed or machines broken the inspector would have still given you a standard fare ticket. So you are kind of goosed.

Namaste2u

BrianD wrote: »

I wouldn't waste your time. Just pay up and move on.

You had the opportunity to pay before boarding and you didn't. Inspectors don't sell tickets. Even if the ticket office was closed or machines broken the inspector would have still given you a standard fare ticket. So you are kind of goosed.

So I'll disregard the law, Irish Rails new interpretation of said law and the fact the inspectors up until very recently sold tickets on board and staff at stations are more than happy to let you pay then and there...right.


Also why do those so apposed to appealing seem so emotionally attached to the argument?

NuMarvel

BrianD wrote: »

I wouldn't waste your time. Just pay up and move on.

You had the opportunity to pay before boarding and you didn't. Inspectors don't sell tickets. Even if the ticket office was closed or machines broken the inspector would have still given you a standard fare ticket. So you are kind of goosed.

What's to lose by appealing? They won't increase the fine, the OP isn't flat out refusing to pay the fine, so the worst case scenario is IE say no and the OP pays the fine.

On the other hand, if IE accepts the appeal, then everyone's a winner.

And with regards to situations where a ticket office is closed and the machine is broken, then I'd hope that no inspector/revenue protection officer would be so silly as to try to issue a fine. Whatever about the debate as to a ticketing machine being a booking office or not, the bye laws are very clear that if IE presents you no opportunity to pay at your departing station then you can pay at your destination.

penexpers

NuMarvel wrote: »

On the other hand, if IE accepts the appeal, then everyone's a winner.

Problem is that IE won't accept the appeal. The only way this will get tested is if it goes to court.

NuMarvel

penexpers wrote: »

Problem is that IE won't accept the appeal. The only way this will get tested is if it goes to court.

If IE won't accept the appeal, then the only things to be lost are a bit of the OP's and IE's time, the costs of two stamps, two envelopes and two pieces of paper.

Also, do you know for certain that IE won't accept the appeal? Have you come across other cases like this where IE have rejected the appeal?