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Political Compass mega thread 2011

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    #92
    southsiderosie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    evercloserunion wrote: »
    What exactly do you have a problem understanding, it is obviously a complaint that the system is designed to maintain economic inequality and allow the wealthy to increase their prosperity more easily than (and often at the expense of) the less well off. I don't agree with socialism but to say that the complaint is meaningless is silly.

    No, it's just a complaint meant to score points, not spark discussion.

    As I am frequently reminded on this site, there are all sorts of shades of grey when it comes to Republicanism. But when it comes to economic issues, the discussion turns to black and white: "Ah, the rich just want to keep the poor down, bah humbug". The reality is far more complex than that, and worthy of serious discussion, not jingoism.


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    #93
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    evercloserunion wrote: »
    What exactly do you have a problem understanding, it is obviously a complaint that the system is designed to maintain economic inequality and allow the wealthy to increase their prosperity more easily than (and often at the expense of) the less well off. I don't agree with socialism but to say that the complaint is meaningless is silly.

    It's based off a false assumption though that we have true economic inequality over time and the poor see no growth (at best) and the rich just keep getting richer. The thing is that is patently false when you look at the last 80-100 years (or even much further back) and that despite continued economic equality the rich have gotten richer but the poor have gotten richer too. You really have to a bit mad to actually argue that the poor working class today have it as bad as the poor working class in the 70s, despite greater economic inequality now than in 1970. Yes we have economic inequality, thing is for some reason this hasn't translated into a static quality of life for the less well off.

    The whole "rabble, rabble working class!" type statements cause many to tune out precisely because of this. Yes there are definitely problems for working class families but you're not going to get much engagement if you don't accept the truth of how the system has treated people to begin with.


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    #94
    leincar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 683 ✭✭✭leincar


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    Yeah, keep the aul working classes dirt poor while the higher ups rake in the cash

    With all due respect, I come from a marxist household, my Father was an admirer of Ulbricht and Honecker(No wonder he came back from the States in 1949) so I must come from a 'working class' background. I earn into seven figures a year and I work damn hard for it. I still 'work'. At present I pay over half of my salary to this country in direct taxes and much more in indirect taxes.

    I really despise this attitude that everyone is out for the 'working class'. Unless you are a lottery winner, we all work where possible. Then I guess you are one of the people who wants to give us a third rate of tax and also introduce a wealth tax.

    You miss the point, if that happens most people with assets over €1million will be out of this country as it is theft pure and simple.


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    #95
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Do you need all that money?


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    #96
    phantom_lord
    Registered Users Posts: 10,894 ✭✭✭✭phantom_lord


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    Do you need all that money?

    seriously, just lol.


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    #97
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    Do you need all that money?

    Do you want to contribute to discussion on this forum or just make smart comments? Because if it's the latter you'll not long remain a poster on here.


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    #98
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    nesf wrote: »
    Do you want to contribute to discussion on this forum or just make smart comments? Because if it's the latter you'll not long remain a poster on here.
    Its not a smart comment at all, its a legitimate question,who actually needs that amount of money? No one, and thats why a wealth tax is a good thing, you will still be left very well off while ensuring that those further down dont suffer harsh and undue cuts to social welfare.


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    #99
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    Its not a smart comment at all, its a legitimate question,who actually needs that amount of money? No one, and thats why a wealth tax is a good thing, you will still be left very well off while ensuring that those further down dont suffer harsh and undue cuts to social welfare.

    Make a full point not a quip. Explain what you're saying not make vague rhetoric. "Do you need all that money" offers nothing to debate on, creates a false dilemma and is generally unhelpful. Arguing for a wealth tax so that the less well off don't suffer cuts is on the other hand reasonable and something that can start and maintain discussion. Contribute the latter not the former please.


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    #100
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #101
    southsiderosie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    dooferoaks wrote: »
    Disingenuous summary of LeixlipReds position?

    Personally I would be as opposed to inequality in third world countries as I would to inequality in Ireland. BRIC countries have glaring variations between the rich and poor and in my view Capitalism has done little for the majority.

    The point of Socialism is not about working within the current system, but to change the system itself across the world. The argument about whether this is possible or not, of course is valid, but I think it is oversimplifying the point to say just because you want the best standards for the working man in one country does not mean you cant want the best for workers in another country.

    /my two cents worth.

    What?

    Industrialization in China has pulled over 600 million people out of poverty over the last 30 years.

    Income inequality in Brazil is still very high, but for the first time in its history, there is an emerging middle class whose livelihoods are tied to private rather than public sector employment.

    Russia is an oligarchic state, and this has little to do with capitalism or MNCs, many of which have been reclaimed by the state anyway.

    India still has a lot of problems, but one of their biggest barriers to economic expansion (despite high levels of growth) is their notoriously slow and inefficient bureaucracy.

    When you look at where these countries were 25-30 years ago, versus where they are today, with the possible exception of Russia, the changes for vast swathes of the population are incredible. Certainly inequality is still a problems, but there are far fewer people living on $1 or $2/day in 2010 than there were in 1980. And a rising openness to free enterprise is an undeniable component of these changes.


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    #102
    leincar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 683 ✭✭✭leincar


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    Do you need all that money?

    I have a lifestyle so yes. Why should I have to apologise for what I earn. It took me twenty years of working to get where I am and I am now in to my sixth year of living very well, and able to put some aside for my family.

    Why do people feel(this is not a reflection on you personally) in this country that we should come down to a certain level. Why not buck the trend and try and raise people up. It may not always work, but the alternative in this country at the moment is the sh1t for everyone.

    Don't forget most people who earn a good wage are good people who dislike and despise both what has happened and the government that caused it.

    If you take just a little bit of time to figure it out you will find that we have more in common then you think. For a start, we want rid of this government, we want people to prosper, we want a future not only for our kids, family and friends but, we want a future for ourselves.

    Back to a wealth tax for a second. If I sell shares I pay capital gains tax, that is fair, if I sell a second property at a profit, I pay capital gains, if I get a dividend on a business I have invested in, I pay capital gains. All of that is reasonable, I have no problem with it but, for any government to take a tax off me, for assets I have, when I have bought those assets, on net of tax income is theft, pure and simple.


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    #103
    phantom_lord
    Registered Users Posts: 10,894 ✭✭✭✭phantom_lord


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    Its not a smart comment at all, its a legitimate question,who actually needs that amount of money? No one, and thats why a wealth tax is a good thing, you will still be left very well off while ensuring that those further down dont suffer harsh and undue cuts to social welfare.

    Why don't they try and work on as being successful as leincar instead of essentially stealing his money?

    Capitalism rewards success and innovation making huge strides in enriching society as a whole and ensuring the efficient allocation of resources. Socialism retards growth and basically makes everyone poorer. what kind of incentive is there to be successful or work hard in a society where your money is taken and given to someone on the dole?


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    #104
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    leincar wrote: »
    I have a lifestyle so yes. Why should I have to apologise for what I earn. It took me twenty years of working to get where I am and I am now in to my sixth year of living very well, and able to put some aside for my family.

    Why do people feel(this is not a reflection on you personally) in this country that we should come down to a certain level. Why not buck the trend and try and raise people up. It may not always work, but the alternative in this country at the moment is the sh1t for everyone.

    Don't forget most people who earn a good wage are good people who dislike and despise both what has happened and the government that caused it.

    If you take just a little bit of time to figure it out you will find that we have more in common then you think. For a start, we want rid of this government, we want people to prosper, we want a future not only for our kids, family and friends but, we want a future for ourselves.

    Back to a wealth tax for a second. If I sell shares I pay capital gains tax, that is fair, if I sell a second property at a profit, I pay capital gains, if I get a dividend on a business I have invested in, I pay capital gains. All of that is reasonable, I have no problem with it but, for any government to take a tax off me, for assets I have, when I have bought those assets, on net of tax income is theft, pure and simple.
    With any luck in 15 years or so I will be making large amounts of money, I would have no problems paying higher taxes, or indeed a "wealth" tax, if it helped insure that those further down, who arent in such a good position dont pay too high a price.


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    #105
    southsiderosie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    With any luck in 15 years or so I will be making large amounts of money, I would have no problems paying higher taxes, or indeed a "wealth" tax, if it helped insure that those further down, who arent in such a good position dont pay too high a price.

    What kind of "price" are people "further down" paying? How much further down? This is all very vague.


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    #106
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    southsiderosie wrote: »
    What kind of "price" are people "further down" paying? How much further down? This is all very vague.
    Considering I had just been talking about social welfare surely that is obvious.


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    #107
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    phantom_lord wrote: »
    Why don't they try and work on as being successful as leincar instead of essentially stealing his money?

    Capitalism rewards success and innovation making huge strides in enriching society as a whole and ensuring the efficient allocation of resources. Socialism retards growth and basically makes everyone poorer. what kind of incentive is there to be successful or work hard in a society where your money is taken and given to someone on the dole?
    Oh yeah, cause everyone can get to that level? There aint room at the top.


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    #108
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #109
    southsiderosie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    Considering I had just been talking about social welfare surely that is obvious.

    Well it's not. What is "too high a price" for not being a lawyer or in some other high-paid profession? What exactly do people with high paying jobs owe others in society who do not earn as much money? You seem to think this is self-evident, but it is not.


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    #110
    southsiderosie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    Oh yeah, cause everyone can get to that level? There aint room at the top.

    Not everybody is going to be rich. But I fail to understand how, for example, my working at a private law firm in some way kept down the bike messenger who delivered legal documents to me, or the city clerk who stamped them.


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    #111
    phantom_lord
    Registered Users Posts: 10,894 ✭✭✭✭phantom_lord


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    Oh yeah, cause everyone can get to that level? There aint room at the top.

    There's also no level of serfdom like you seem to imply.


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    #112
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    On the one hand donegalfella is pointing to the advances and increased wealth of the lower classes, and on the other he is moaning that it is just this which is undesirable as it eats into profits.


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    #113
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    Oh yeah, cause everyone can get to that level? There aint room at the top.

    Screw that crap, my great-grandfather was an itinerant farm labourer (i.e. very poor), my grandfather drove a bulldozer for a living, his kids went on to be a stockbroker, carpenter, manager and a small business owner. We aren't born fixed in our class like in the 1700s.


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    #114
    leincar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 683 ✭✭✭leincar


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Sadly, I couldn't agree more. Sometimes I think people get the impression I'm a 'master of the universe' from Bonfire of the vanities. I'm just someone who got on by being good at his job, and after sending out many, many letters getting an unpaid internship with Harvey Goldsmith back in 1985.


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    #115
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    nesf wrote: »
    Screw that crap, my great-grandfather was an itinerant farm labourer (i.e. very poor), my grandfather drove a bulldozer for a living, his kids went on to be a stockbroker, carpenter, manager and a small business owner. We aren't born fixed in our class like in the 1700s.
    Oh so you are saying that it is possible, for everyone, to get to the tippy top and make tons of money? As long as they work hard?


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    #116
    leincar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 683 ✭✭✭leincar


    nesf wrote: »
    Screw that crap, my great-grandfather was an itinerant farm labourer (i.e. very poor), my grandfather drove a bulldozer for a living, his kids went on to be a stockbroker, carpenter, manager and a small business owner. We aren't born fixed in our class like in the 1700s.


    Yep, my old man left for the U.S. in 1938 with the clothes on his back and a spare pair of underpants( he told the story often). He landed on Utah beach on D-Day with the 4th infantry division, later becoming a radio technician. Due to his political beliefs he came back to Ireland just as the era of McCartyism was happening. He spent the rest of his working life in R.T.E. working a couple of jobs to get us through collage.


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    #117
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    Oh so you are saying that it is possible, for everyone, to get to the tippy top and make tons of money? As long as they work hard?

    Which part of "don't contribute quips, contribute points" don't you get?


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    #118
    Eliot Rosewater
    Registered Users Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭Eliot Rosewater


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    Oh so you are saying that it is possible, for everyone, to get to the tippy top and make tons of money? As long as they work hard?

    I think you're shifting the goalposts here. Before on this thread you have argued, in effect, for a maximum wage, yet here you have raised the standard of success to the "tippy top" i.e. far above what one would envisage to be a maximum wage.

    I think this "the rich getting richer; poor getting poorer" mantra doesn't hold true to reality, nor this notion that the majority haven't benefited. When I look around my middle-class estate I see at least two cars outside most houses, and Sky dishes on the roof.


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    #119
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    nesf wrote: »
    Which part of "don't contribute quips, contribute points" don't you get?
    Its a genuine question, and a perfectly valuable point, you seem to be suggesting that under our current system if people work hard everyone can achieve financial success. In your charming anecdote you made no mention that someone else has taken the "lower class" place of your ancestors.


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    #120
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    Its a genuine question, and a perfectly valuable point, you seem to be suggesting that under our current system if people work hard everyone can achieve financial success. In your charming anecdote you made no mention that someone else has taken the "lower class" place of your ancestors.

    You are completely missing my point. The problem isn't what you're saying but how you're saying it. Making a reasonable argument that social mobility is all well and good but that it doesn't solve the problem of economic inequality is completely acceptable on this forum. Making that point by making a cheeky statement misrepresenting someone's point is disruptive and not welcome on this forum.

    It is perfectly possible to argue almost every position (and definitely your's) reasonably without being disruptive, so either you do that or you no longer get to post here. Taking someone's point that clearly says X and saying "oh so you're saying Y" because you want to talk about Y is not behaviour that is acceptable here and you need to cut it out.

    What you're doing is not conducive to neutral argument on this forum but will provoke poor reactions by others. This is trolling whether you intend it or not.


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    #121
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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