A vote for Labour is a vote for SIPTU

Tim Robbins

There is a symbiotic relationship between Labour and SIPTU.
Siptu make no apologies for it and are officially backing Labour in the election.

Why are they doing this?

What political favours do they expect in return?

If Labour get Minister for finance - what can we expect? More shopping trips to Newry?

Not everyone works in the public sector and not everyone is a member of SIPTU. Why should a vested interest be so close to a government when it only represents its own interests?

We have seen what a vested interest does when it gets politically powerful surely this is terrifying?

In my own case it has made me think the unthinkable give my 4th preference to FF.

Discuss...

Joey the lips

Personally i find it a disgrace that siptu send a portion of my funds to the labour party or hang a flag with a labour mug on it from liberty hall without my say but having said that where my real grip lies is this.

Labour consider themselves a socialist party,a party of te working class. It obvious they will not get into power alone and its more obvious they will most likely go with fine gael so what as a labour supporter must i conceed.

For example will labour allow the sell off of state assets and semi state companies as advertised by fine gael. If so this will directly effect me and hundred of thousends like me.

Will i by effectivly voteing labour as a working class socialiast be saying good bye to my Job.

Tim Robbins

Joey the lips wrote: »

Personally i find it a disgrace that siptu send a portion of my funds to the labour party or hang a flag with a labour mug on it from liberty hall without my say but having said that where my real grip lies is this.

Labour consider themselves a socialist party,a party of te working class. It obvious they will not get into power alone and its more obvious they will most likely go with fine gael so what as a labour supporter must i conceed.

For example will labour allow the sell off of state assets and semi state companies as advertised by fine gael. If so this will directly effect me and hundred of thousends like me.

Will i by effectivly voteing labour as a working class socialiast be saying good bye to my Job.

I don't follow this logic. I saw a debate with Pat Rabbit and he defended the average wage in the ESB worker as 90K a year. In fact he was vehement about it.

I do not see Labour as people to defend the working class. I see them as defending any of workers with the big unions.

The term working class is done anyway. It originates from the Victorian era when some people worked seven days a week, for very little money never got a break and had no leisure time.

Now, the only people who live like that are workaholics.

Labour law has made the term obsolete.

nesf

Joey the lips wrote: »

Personally i find it a disgrace that siptu send a portion of my funds to the labour party or hang a flag with a labour mug on it from liberty hall without my say but having said that where my real grip lies is this.

Labour consider themselves a socialist party,a party of te working class. It obvious they will not get into power alone and its more obvious they will most likely go with fine gael so what as a labour supporter must i conceed.

For example will labour allow the sell off of state assets and semi state companies as advertised by fine gael. If so this will directly effect me and hundred of thousends like me.

Will i by effectivly voteing labour as a working class socialiast be saying good bye to my Job.

I've never seen Labour claim to be socialist rather than social democrat. Could be wrong, have not studied Labour's site and manifestos in detail over the years but at least in recent times their rhetoric has been social democrat not socialist and there's a huge difference between the two.

P. Breathnach

nesf wrote: »

I've never seen Labour claim to be socialist rather than social democrat. Could be wrong, have not studied Labour's site and manifestos in detail over the years but at least in recent times their rhetoric has been social democrat not socialist and there's a huge difference between the two.

1969: "The seventies will be socialist". They were wrong about that, and I think that even back then their idea of socialism didn't accord with the Joe Higgins interpretation of the word. The Labour Party was sufficiently pragmatic back then to regard socialism as no more than a marketing label for social democracy.

nesf

P. Breathnach wrote: »

1969: "The seventies will be socialist". They were wrong about that, and I think that even back then their idea of socialism didn't accord with the Joe Higgins interpretation of the word. The Labour Party was sufficiently pragmatic back then to regard socialism as no more than a marketing label for social democracy.

And that was over 40 years ago when the USSR still seemed like a viable experiment.

Killer Pigeon

You fail to realise that SIPTU isn't the only union that supports Labour. Many private sector unions also support Labour. The main reason for this is because Labour regard themselves as a democratic socialist party and socialism is all about the fairer treatment of the workers.

Also I guess you're of the opinion that a vote for Labour is a vote for the Unions. This is simply a smear campaign against Labour in part fueled by right-wing media. It is true that Labour has had a close relationship with Private and Public Sector unions since it's foundation but they in no way dictate Labour's policies. Just 4% of Labour's funding comes from union support and note that this is all unions not any union in particular. Also there are at present no trade union representative on the Labour Party Executive Board.

mikemac

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Not everyone works in the public sector and not everyone is a member of SIPTU. Why should a vested interest be so close to a government when it only represents its own interests?

The majority of SIPTU members work in the private sector

Tim Robbins

feelingstressed wrote: »

The majority of SIPTU members work in the private sector

Really? Any more info? Are references would be great. Thanks.

mox54

Whats wrong with Labour and sitpu working together, Fianna Fail and business are in bed together and look where we are now, at least the workers will have some say!:mad:

mikemac

No problems
From Sunday Business Post, date below

11 Apr 2010 ... However, two-thirds of Siptu's membership are private sector employees

Tim Robbins

mox54 wrote: »

Whats wrong with Labour and sitpu working together, Fianna Fail and business are in bed together and look where we are now, at least the workers will have some say!:mad:

The majority of workers have nothing to do SIPTU. That's a gross misrepresentation.

Anyway, from the SIPTU site...

http://www.siptu.ie/bulletin/pdf/LibertyVol10No1.pdf

Labour are running people for election who are also active members in siptu.

1. Pat Cody honour branch organiser
2. Marie Maloney works in siptu hub office in tralee
3. Colm Keaveney

Killer Pigeon

Tim Robbins wrote: »

The majority of workers have nothing to do SIPTU. That's a gross misrepresentation.

Anyway, from the SIPTU site...

http://www.siptu.ie/bulletin/pdf/LibertyVol10No1.pdf

Labour are running people for election who are also active members in siptu.

1. Pat Cody honour branch organiser
2. Marie Maloney works in siptu hub office in tralee
3. Colm Keaveney

Wow, 3 active SIPTU members running for Labour out of 60+ Labour candidates - what a massive influence.

Stick it in the Pan

A vote for FF/FG is a vote for IBEC and the banks

Killer Pigeon

Stick it in the Pan wrote: »

A vote for FF/FG is a vote for IBEC and the banks

You make it sound too positive.

FG/FF are for IBEC, greedy bankers, lunatic developers, golden circles, secret handshakes and (the Icing on the cake) Anglo-Irish!

RetroBate

The OP says "A vote for Labour is a vote for SIPTU"

David Quinn says "A vote for Labour is a vote for abortion"

Maybe SIPTU = Abortion

Can we expect SPUC to picket Liberty Hall?

pajor

I would have thought that the Labour party of today was very different, of the Labour party 20, 30 years ago or even since Dick Spring was leader.

So much so, that with the unions and Labour's 'close relationship', that they could in fact, reel the unions in and prevent episodes such as the recent Aer Lingus fiasco.

Eliot Rosewater

Or, more likely, their decisions in government will be coloured by their inherent bias towards one particular special interest group. I don't see how they could "rein in" union activities.

pajor

Our previous government's attitude to the unions, did not really help the country in the broader scheme of things.
I can hardly see how the situation can get any worse or better with any other party in power

CDfm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

1969: "The seventies will be socialist". They were wrong about that, and I think that even back then their idea of socialism didn't accord with the Joe Higgins interpretation of the word. The Labour Party was sufficiently pragmatic back then to regard socialism as no more than a marketing label for social democracy.

But Fianna Fail were typically Labours competition for the Working Class vote.

Even Bertie Ahern is quoted as saying " I am a socialist". If you looked at FF's social housingpolicies as far back as the 1930's they have very much been an urban party.

Isn't it a bit ironic that we have come from a period where we lambasted Sinn Fein for having a private army to a situation where we wont lambast SIPTU for having a private Political Party.

The Labour Party is very much middle class by comparison.

P. Breathnach

CDfm wrote: »

But Fianna Fail were typically Labours competition for the Working Class vote.

Even Bertie Ahern is quoted as saying " I am a socialist". If you looked at FF's social housingpolicies as far back as the 1930's they have very much been an urban party.

Isn't it a bit ironic that we have come from a period where we lambasted Sinn Fein for having a private army to a situation where we wont lambast SIPTU for having a private Political Party.

The Labour Party is very much middle class by comparison.

First, I don't know why this was presented as a response to a post of mine that was made primarily for the purpose of giving information.

Second, it is grotesque to claim that the Labour Party is in any way the party of SIPTU. It is fair to say that the Labour Party and the trade unions have much common ground, and they can be seen as parts of the labour movement (which is an expression without a very precise meaning).

thetonynator

CDfm wrote: »

But Fianna Fail were typically Labours competition for the Working Class vote.

Even Bertie Ahern is quoted as saying " I am a socialist". If you looked at FF's social housingpolicies as far back as the 1930's they have very much been an urban party.

Bertie was also quoted as saying ''The boom times are getting boomer''. Basically Bertie said whatever he thought everyone wanted to hear, and then did whatever lined his pockets best.

CDfm wrote: »

Isn't it a bit ironic that we have come from a period where we lambasted Sinn Fein for having a private army to a situation where we wont lambast SIPTU for having a private Political Party.

The Labour Party is very much middle class by comparison.

SIPTU and the IRA are quite different things!

Killer Pigeon

CDfm wrote: »

But Fianna Fail were typically Labours competition for the Working Class vote.

Even Bertie Ahern is quoted as saying " I am a socialist". If you looked at FF's social housingpolicies as far back as the 1930's they have very much been an urban party.

The 'Soldiers of Destiny' are a populist party and inherently an election machine. Nobody perfected this art more than Bertie Ahern; he could be socialist one minute but the next minute he would satisfy the players of high capitalism.

CDfm wrote: »

Isn't it a bit ironic that we have come from a period where we lambasted Sinn Fein for having a private army to a situation where we wont lambast SIPTU for having a private Political Party.

To say that the Labour Party is the private political party of SIPTU has to be one of the most ill-informed statements about Labour. Labour (as I've mentioned here before) receive 4% of their funding from Unions, how much of that 4% do SIPTU (one of many trade unions) give? And nobody on the Labour Executive is representative of SIPTU. Labour is far from a political wing of SIPTU.

CDfm

It is fairly niave to say it aint so - the Unions and public servants they represent negotiating with each other on Public Service Pension reform

http://www.finance.gov.ie/Viewprnt.asp?DocID=894&CatID=30&m=&StartDate=01+January+2007

The Irish Times - Monday, July 26, 2010Political donations by unions to be banned




MARTIN WALL Industry Correspondent
THE GOVERNMENT is to ban donations from trade unions to political parties as part of the planned legislation to end corporate donations to political parties, the Minister for the Environment John Gormley has said.
Such a ban would particularly hit the Labour Party, which receives the vast bulk of trade union donations.
Speaking at a meeting of Green Party members in Limerick on Saturday, he said that he intended to change the way politics was funded and to curb the influence of lobbyists, when the Dáil returned in September.
The Minister said that his planned reforms would also involve the introduction of a register of lobbyists to regulate their activities. He said that new legislation which the Green Party would propose would end not just corporate donations but also donations from trade unions.
“Is it really good for our society if the unions are hand-in-glove with the Labour Party and dictating policy?
“The Croke Park agreement, which, extraordinarily, Labour did not publicly back because of a possible backlash from some of their donor unions, shows that public service reform is possible and indeed long overdue. If Labour had been in power it might never have happened.”
The country’s largest trade union, Siptu, had a political fund of around €121,000 in 2007 and €117,000 in 2008 – the vast bulk of which would have gone to the Labour Party.
The Labour Party yesterday said that it would oppose moves by the Government to ban donations from trade unions.
A spokesman for the Labour Party said that it had been founded by the trade union movement and had long and historic associations with it. However, he said that the Labour Party in the past had taken stances which were opposed by trade unions.
He said that such a ban was not necessary as donations arising from the open association of the Labour Party with the trade union movement could not be compared with donations from developers.
The spokesman said that the amount the Labour Party received from trade unions was very small and represented about 5 per cent of turnover.
Chairman of the Greens Senator Dan Boyle said yesterday that the party recognised no distinction between political donations from a business corporation and a trade union.
“They are one and the same thing as far as we’re concerned: it’s the same principle. That legislation is being prepared by the department for the autumn.”
It was envisaged that no distinction would be made between business corporations and “corporate bodies in general, including trade unions”, none of whom would be allowed to make political donations.
Mr Gormley also strongly criticised the influence of lobbyists in the political process.
“These individuals or companies who are paid handsomely by companies to achieve certain policy objectives have ready access to those in power. Many of them have previously been involved in political parties and know the system and the personalities. They also know the journalists and opinion formers.
“The influence of lobbyists is pervasive and at times pernicious. This is why we need a register of lobbyists to regulate their activities. It would immediately allow the public to identify these individuals and the causes they espouse,” he said.

You also have Union Officials appointed to the Boards of Qango's etc on the recommendation of Civil Servants and the directors fees go directly into the trade union funds.

So the level of patronage is a bit of a racket.

Liberty Hall the most visable building in Dublin gets emblazoned with Labour Candidates names and Labour endorcements at Election time.

I do not know how to explain the relationship but I have given it a shot.

Killer Pigeon

CDfm wrote: »

Liberty Hall the most visable building in Dublin gets emblazoned with Labour Candidates names and Labour endorcements at Election time.

I do not know how to explain the relationship but I have given it a shot.

This article makes no difference to what I've stated above. 4% of funding comes from Unions, as the article states (albeit 5%).

Your analogy of Labour posters being visible on Liberty Hall can be comparable to their being large political posters on some plots of a farmer's land along a motorway. It doesn't mean that the farmer owns the party, he is merely supporting it.

Manach

That generalisation breaks down somewhat in that private sector firms don't in general have such signs, in fact they ban political candiatates from the premises during election cycles.

Killer Pigeon

Manach wrote: »

That generalisation breaks down somewhat in that private sector firms don't in general have such signs, in fact they ban political candiatates from the premises during election cycles.

SIPTU is a union not a firm.

CDfm

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

This article makes no difference to what I've stated above. 4% of funding comes from Unions, as the article states (albeit 5%).

Your analogy of Labour posters being visible on Liberty Hall can be comparable to their being large political posters on some plots of a farmer's land along a motorway. It doesn't mean that the farmer owns the party, he is merely supporting it.

The amount of direct funding to SIPTU from the public service is vast

The Irish Times - Friday, October 8, 2010Over €28m spent on other union activities, report shows




PAUL CULLEN
INTERNAL REVIEW: THE DEPARTMENT of Health spent more than €28 million on union–management partnership activities other than the Skill programme between 2000 and 2004, according to an internal review.
Of this sum, it is estimated that €795,000 was subsequently disbursed to Siptu, the report commissioned by department secretary general Michael Scanlan states.
Most of the non-Skill payments, amounting to over €19 million, were funnelled through the Health Sector National Partnership Forum and was used to give grants to partnership committees and support various projects. Another €4 million was given to the Office for Health Management, which was set up in 1997 to develop a management strategy for the health service.
The report by personnel officer Barry Murphy says the funding given to such bodies supported a range of activities including, but not confined to, union-management partnership. From 2005 on, direct payments from the department ceased and the HSE took over funding for these activities.
The report also found over €312,000 was given to the Irish Nurses’ Organisation between 2000 and 2004, mostly to establish and maintain a website. The Psychiatric Nurses’ Organisation got €50,000 towards the cost of establishing a research department.
Four department officials participated in five different trips relating to skills and partnership under the Skill programme, the report prepared also states.
All of the trips listed were to the US and took place between 2004 and 2008. One official, Bernard Carey, took part in four trips, to New York (twice), Boston and Savannah, Georgia.
The total claims arising from these visits was €6,290, but the report says this was not the total cost of the trips, as airline and accommodation costs were in many cases met from “non-departmental sources”.
A number of other trips took place in respect of which nothing was claimed from the department, but the costs were met from “partnership” sources. A further trip to Ottawa and Toronto in 2004 was paid for by the Office of Health Management.
The report provides an overlapping list of 10 trips in which department officials participated which took place “in a management-union context”. Destinations visited included Vancouver, Australia via the US, and Los Angeles and Australia.
A retired official told Mr Murphy he was invited by a Siptu official to join a union-management group for “study visits” to New York in 2006, Boston in 2007, Savannah in 2008 and New York in 2009. His travel and hotel expenses were paid by the Siptu official.
Three officials’ wives accompanied them on some trips, the report states, but the officials paid their costs rather than the department. Mr Murphy says the guidance from the Department of Finance on the rates of subsistence applying to overseas travel are “less than entirely clear”.

Eamonn Gilmore is a former SIPTU official

irishtimes.com - Last Updated: Thursday, February 3, 2011, 20:19
Labour given Siptu backing
Siptu has called on its members to vote for LabourSiptu has called on its members to vote for Labour

MARTIN WALL, Industry Correspondent

The country’s largest trade union has called on its members to vote for Labour and parties “that support principles of social solidarity” in the forthcoming general election.

Siptu said the commitment by Labour Party leader Eamon Gilmore to legislate for the right of all workers to collective bargaining if involved in the next government and the importance for working people of a strong left wing component in any future Coalition strongly influenced its national executive council to make this recommendation.

The union has about 200,000 members. Mr Gilmore is a former Siptu official.

I would say that is fairly significant and it is the power base from which Eamonn Gilmore got to the Dail.

You would have to be deaf dumb and blind tot to see the connection.

Tragedy

Also I guess you're of the opinion that a vote for Labour is a vote for the Unions. This is simply a smear campaign against Labour in part fueled by right-wing media.

No, it really isn't. Would you care to tell us what Eamonn Gilmore worked as between 1978 and 1989?
Would you care to tell us what Pat Rabbitte worked as prior to becoming a TD?

What was it Willie Penrose said in 2007?
Was it

We are asking for the trade unions to come back to their natural home.

Why, I think it was!

Calling it a smear campaign part fueled by right-wing media just sounds like a persecution complex to be honest.

CDfm

And then there was the FAS slush fund.

THE TÁNAISTE Mary Coughlan yesterday sought to play down a controversy with the European Commission that has brought a halt to the claiming of tens of millions of euro in European Social Fund payments.
Her department confirmed that a claim for €57 million spent by Fás on training and which was to be repaid by Europe, was withdrawn because of issues raised by European audits.

A prominent trade unionist has criticised a call for FAS to be shut down:

The Labour Party’s spokesman on education, the former minister for labour Ruairí Quinn, has called for Fás to be “shut down” as a result of this latest blow to its credibility. He said some of its budget should be transferred to educational institutions such as institutes of technology.
This sparked an angry trade union reaction from Siptu and Ictu president Jack O’Connor who is also a long-time member of the Labour Party’s national executive.“Ruairí Quinn was undoubtedly the best minister for finance in my lifetime but he is totally and completely wrong in his call for closing down Fás,” Mr O’Connor said.

Total amount SIPTU College received via the FAS Competency Development Programme (CDP) (2003 to 2008 inclusive): €2,068,571.6
Total amount ICTU received via the FAS Competency Development Programme (CDP) (2003 to 2008 inclusive): €2,460,274.73
Total for SIPTU and ICTU: €4,528,846.33
SIPTU and ICTU were two of the top 10 recipients of FAS CDP money from 2003 to 2008.
I think maybe Mr O’Connor should have mentioned these figures.



http://thestory.ie/2010/09/06/fas-funds-and-siptuictu/

And the Union isnt against threats to bring the party into line

By Gerald Flynn Industrial Correspondent

Saturday September 28 2002
SIPTU union bosses are preparing to cut their Labour Party links after the party machine failed to secure union president Des Geraghty's election to the Seanad three months ago.

The union has established a special commission to examine its affiliation to the party, of which it is the largest financial backer. Last year SIPTU contributed €78,587 to Labour's coffers and each of the party's candidates in the general election who were formally SIPTU members got a special, €2,000 donation and free use of union offices, facilities and cars.

Recipients of union funds and election finance included former party leader Dick Spring, who lost his Kerry North seat, and Labour deputy leader Brendan Howlin, a former teacher who joined SIPTU.

The union decision, reported in this week's Industrial Relations News, could provide a major setback for Labour, which failed to make much headway in the general election.

The party is currently choosing a new leader to succeed Ruairi Quinn, with two former ITGWU union officials, Pat Rabbitte and Eamon Gilmore, among the leading candidates.

Delegates to SIPTU's 1999 conference initially voted to review its affiliation with Labour but union bosses put off the issue until recently. Following Mr Geraghty's failure to win a Seanad seat on the labour panel it has been revived and general secretary John McDonnell will chair the commission.

Three months ago Mr Geraghty was the victim of a revolt by Labour councillors who voted for Cork's Cllr Michael McCarthy, an unsuccessful Dáil candidate, to secure the labour panel.

The SIPTU move will strengthen Mr Rabbitte's position in the leadership race, as he was the first party TD to press for a wider gap between Labour and Fianna Fail in the run-up to last May's general election. It may also assist Mr Gilmore who, if named leader, would be well positioned to heal the growing rift between the party and its biggest union affiliate.

While SIPTU chiefs will be quick to dismiss any link between the decision for a review of its party affiliation and Mr Geraghty's election disappointment, SIPTU traditionally enjoyed a presence in the Upper House, though usually through a Taoiseach's nomination.

It appears from recent election results that more SIPTU members now vote for either Fianna Fail, Sinn Fein or the Green Party than back Labour Party candidates.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/aggrieved-siptu-may-end-affiliation-to-labour-party-294407.html

Or this

SIPTU president warns Labour not to support Fine Gael
Print
29/11/2008 - 12:42:54
The President of SIPTU has launched a stinging attack on Fine Gael.

Jack O'Connor has warned the Labour Party not to support Fine Gael because of their so-called "neo-liberal" policies.

It follows Fine Gael leader Enda Kenny's call for employers and employees to take a wage freeze for 12 months in order to protect living standards.

Speaking at the Labour Party's annual conference in Co Kilkenny, Jack O'Connor said a vote for Fine Gael would be political suicide

Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/archives/2008/1129/ireland/siptu-president-warns-labour-not-to-support-fine-gael-388473.html#ixzz1Dp8ftuwL

I could go on but - Labours political actions and SIPTU's protests ofthen are coordinated

Tim Robbins

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

You fail to realise that SIPTU isn't the only union that supports Labour. Many private sector unions also support Labour. The main reason for this is because Labour regard themselves as a democratic socialist party and socialism is all about the fairer treatment of the workers.

Also I guess you're of the opinion that a vote for Labour is a vote for the Unions. This is simply a smear campaign against Labour in part fueled by right-wing media. It is true that Labour has had a close relationship with Private and Public Sector unions since it's foundation but they in no way dictate Labour's policies. Just 4% of Labour's funding comes from union support and note that this is all unions not any union in particular. Also there are at present no trade union representative on the Labour Party Executive Board.

I am a worker so are all the people we work with.

We do not feel represented by SIPTU / ICTU or any Union. The feeling is they shaft the lot of us.

You do realise Jack O'Connor was on Labour's national executive until 2009 and that the executive decide party policy?

The links between Labour and SIPTU are even stronger than the links between FF and developers.

Tim Robbins

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

Wow, 3 active SIPTU members running for Labour out of 60+ Labour candidates - what a massive influence.

It is possible for a member of the Dail to still be a member of SIPTU?

Tim Robbins

I am in complete agreement with CDfm. Some people won't admit the links when there is far more evidence for links between SIPTU / Labour then FF and developers either in 1997, 2002 or 2007.

We have seen what government by vested interest does to the country, I see Labour / SIPTU as just another vested interest who will put the interests of the unions before the interests of the people.

A complete subversion of democracy.
Let's have a look at some other links...

Gimore - Acting Secretary of the Galway Branch, 1978–1979, Secretary of Tralee Branch, 1979–1981, and of the Professional & Managerial Staffs Branch, 1981–1989 in SIPTU.
Rabbite - Official in ITGWU/SIPTU from 1974. National Secretary for ITGWU / SIPTU in 1980
Joe Costello - X Public Sector - School Teacher. Also former Secondary School Teacher & former President of Association of Secondary Teachers of Ireland (ASTI)

And the profile of other Labour people likely to be sitting at cabinet.

Joan Burton - X - Public Sector - lecturer in Accountancy, DIT
Tommy Broughan - X - Public Sector - Teacher St Aidan's CBS
Roisin Shorthall - X - public Sector - Worked as teacher for the deaf
Brendan Howlin -X - public sector. Primary school teacher. His Dad was secretary of ITGWU in Wexford for 40 years.

Quinn, Stagg as far as I can see are from private sector and have no Union links.

Note, I am not saying any other party is perfect. All I am saying is people who are skeptical of the impacts of militant trade unions should be skeptical of Labour. Their representation seems completely lob sided.

femur61

mox54 wrote: »

Whats wrong with Labour and sitpu working together, Fianna Fail and business are in bed together and look where we are now, at least the workers will have some say!:mad:

Fianna Fail were in bed with the Unions as well, wasn't bench marking in the public sector gauged on the wages of the private sector at the time. Mary harney said in hindsight wages in the public sector should have been bench marked against public sector wages in other EU countries. Now that would have taken a lot of the PS of their high horse.

Tim Robbins

femur61 wrote: »

Fianna Fail were in bed with the Unions as well, wasn't bench marking in the public sector gauged on the wages of the private sector at the time. Mary harney said in hindsight wages in the public sector should have been bench marked against public sector wages in other EU countries. Now that would have taken a lot of the PS of their high horse.

They were and pillaged a lot of the Labour vote. Started to over pay the public sector and kept their vote.

Basically I see the Unions as a major obstacle to recovery. I think it is naieve not to.

CDfm

Tim Robbins wrote: »

They were and pillaged a lot of the Labour vote. Started to over pay the public sector and kept their vote.

Basically I see the Unions as a major obstacle to recovery. I think it is naieve not to.

If you say that socialist principles are about the fair distribution of and allocation of resourses then the 49% extra wages the public sector earn more than the private sector is a biggie.

The Public Service workers are the "haves" and everyone else are the "have nots"

The public servants are the ruling classes, it is hardly liberté, égalité, fraternité. Now theres a thought :p

thetonynator

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

Your analogy of Labour posters being visible on Liberty Hall can be comparable to their being large political posters on some plots of a farmer's land along a motorway. It doesn't mean that the farmer owns the party, he is merely supporting it.

Usually means that the party have paid the farmer for the benefit of it!!!

Killer Pigeon

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I am in complete agreement with CDfm. Some people won't admit the links when there is far more evidence for links between SIPTU / Labour then FF and developers either in 1997, 2002 or 2007.

We have seen what government by vested interest does to the country, I see Labour / SIPTU as just another vested interest who will put the interests of the unions before the interests of the people.

A complete subversion of democracy.
Let's have a look at some other links...

Gimore - Acting Secretary of the Galway Branch, 1978–1979, Secretary of Tralee Branch, 1979–1981, and of the Professional & Managerial Staffs Branch, 1981–1989 in SIPTU.
Rabbite - Official in ITGWU/SIPTU from 1974. National Secretary for ITGWU / SIPTU in 1980
Joe Costello - X Public Sector - School Teacher. Also former Secondary School Teacher & former President of Association of Secondary Teachers of Ireland (ASTI)

And the profile of other Labour people likely to be sitting at cabinet.

Joan Burton - X - Public Sector - lecturer in Accountancy, DIT
Tommy Broughan - X - Public Sector - Teacher St Aidan's CBS
Roisin Shorthall - X - public Sector - Worked as teacher for the deaf
Brendan Howlin -X - public sector. Primary school teacher. His Dad was secretary of ITGWU in Wexford for 40 years.

Quinn, Stagg as far as I can see are from private sector and have no Union links.

Note, I am not saying any other party is perfect. All I am saying is people who are skeptical of the impacts of militant trade unions should be skeptical of Labour. Their representation seems completely lob sided.

Dear Lord, for the last time Labour have a relationship with BOTH PRIVATE and PUBLIC sector Unions. You're just incurably bitter towards the public sectors, it's actually incredible, you're even taking it out on school teachers who are members of Labour and pointing that out as an extreme connection to the public sector. Look at parties like FG/FF there is a huge public sector representation there, for god sake Micheál Martin and Enda Kenny are both school teachers by trade. There are plenty of former teachers and other public sector workers in FF/FG. By the way, I don't know if you knew this but TD's, Senetor, Concillors, etc.. are by definition Public Sector workers.

Joan Burton - Spokesperson for Finance.
- Educated at UCD
- Qualified chartered accountant, worked
with Price Waterhouse before becoming a
senior lecturer at DIT.

Joe Costello - Spokesperson for Transport.
- Educated at St. Patrick's College, Maynooth
and UCD
- Former secondary school teacher.

Michael D. Higgins - Spokesperson for International affairs
(albeit former)
- Educated at NUIG, Indiana University and
Manchester University.
- Former lecturer at NUIG.

Brendan Howlin - Spokesperson for European Affairs,
constitutional matters, law reform and human
rights.
- Educated at St. Patrick's College, Drumcondra.
- Former primary school teacher.

Ciarán Lynch - Spokesperson for Housing and Local Government,
- Educated at WIT and UCC,
- Former Adult Literacy Organiser with ALO and
Cork VEC.

Liz McManus - Spokesperson on Communication, Energy & Natural
Resources,
- Studied Architecture at UCD,
- She is an author and wrote weekly columns for the
Sunday Tribune.

Brian O'Shea - Spokesperson on Defense and the Irish Language,
- Former teacher,

Jan O'Sullivan - Spokesperson on Health,
- Studied at Trinity College, Dublin and UCC.
- Former montessouri teacher.

Ruairi Quinn - Spokesperson on Education and Science,
- Studied Architecture at UCD and later educated at
the School of Ekistics in Athens, Greece.
- Worked as an Architece but was an active member of
the Labour Party since his University years.

Seán Sherlock - Spokesperson on Argiculture & Food,
- Studied Economic & Politics at NUIG,
- Worked as an assistant to Labour Party MEP
Proinsias De Rossa at the Eurpean Parliament.

Roisin Shortall - Spokesperson on Social & Family Affairs,
- Educated at UCD and St. Mary's College of
Education, Marino.
- Former teacher of the Deaf.

Emmet Stagg - Labour Party Chief Whip,
- Studied at Kevin Street College of Technology,
- Worked as a Medical Technologist at Trinity College,
Dublin.

Joanna Tuffy - Spokesperson on Environmental and Heritage,
- Educated at Trinity College, Dublin and DIT
(Legal Studies)

Mary Upton - Spokesperson on Arts, Sport & Tourism,
- Educated at NUIG and UCD,
- Former lecturer.

Jack Wall - Spokesperson on Community and Rural Affairs,
- No University
- Former Electrician.

(The following are Seanad Éireann Sokesperson running for Dáil
seats)

Ivana Bacik - Seanad Spokesperson on Justice, Arts, Sports and
Tourism.
- Educated at Trinity College, Dublin and the London
School of Economics (LLB & LLM repectively).
- Practising Barrister and teaches classes in
Criminology, Constitutional Law, Feminist Theories
and Law.

Dominic Hannigan - Seanad Spokesperson on Commuter Issues,
Environment & Local Government, Foreign
Affairs and Defense.
- Studied at UCD (Engineering), City University
London (Masters in Transport) and University
of London (Masters in Finance),
- Engineer.

Phil Prendergast - Seanad Spokesperson on Health & Family Affairs,
and Party Spokesperson on Older People.
- Worked as a Nurse and later as a Midwife.

Brendan Ryan - Seanad Spokesperson on Enterprise, Trade and
Employment,
- Educated at DIT, UCD and DCU (Degree in Chemistry
and Masters' degrees in Food Science and Business
Administration).
- All his working life he has worked in industry
in the private sector, mainly in the technical
and operations areas, and in senior managerial
positions. He has worked in the Food and Chemicals
sectors of industry.

Alex White - Seanad Group Leader and Seanad Spokesperson on
Children,
- Educated at Trinity College, Dublin and the King's
Inn.
- Barrister.

CDfm

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

Dear Lord, for the last time Labour have a relationship with BOTH PRIVATE and PUBLIC sector Unions. You're just incurably bitter towards the public sectors, it's actually incredible, you're even taking it out on school teachers who are members of Labour and pointing that out as an extreme connection to the public sector. Look at parties like FG/FF there is a huge public sector representation there, for god sake Micheál Martin and Enda Kenny are both school teachers by trade. There are plenty of former teachers and other public sector workers in FF/FG. By the way, I don't know if you knew this but TD's, Senetor, Concillors, etc.. are by definition Public Sector workers.

Joan Burton - Spokesperson for Finance.
- Educated at UCD
- Qualified chartered accountant, worked
with Price Waterhouse before becoming a
senior lecturer at DIT.

Joe Costello - Spokesperson for Transport.
- Educated at St. Patrick's College, Maynooth
and UCD
- Former secondary school teacher.

Michael D. Higgins - Spokesperson for International affairs
(albeit former)
- Educated at NUIG, Indiana University and
Manchester University.
- Former lecturer at NUIG.

Brendan Howlin - Spokesperson for European Affairs,
constitutional matters, law reform and human
rights.
- Educated at St. Patrick's College, Drumcondra.
- Former primary school teacher.

Ciarán Lynch - Spokesperson for Housing and Local Government,
- Educated at WIT and UCC,
- Former Adult Literacy Organiser with ALO and
Cork VEC.

Liz McManus - Spokesperson on Communication, Energy & Natural
Resources,
- Studied Architecture at UCD,
- She is an author and wrote weekly columns for the
Sunday Tribune.

Brian O'Shea - Spokesperson on Defense and the Irish Language,
- Former teacher,

Jan O'Sullivan - Spokesperson on Health,
- Studied at Trinity College, Dublin and UCC.
- Former montessouri teacher.

Ruairi Quinn - Spokesperson on Education and Science,
- Studied Architecture at UCD and later educated at
the School of Ekistics in Athens, Greece.
- Worked as an Architece but was an active member of
the Labour Party since his University years.

Seán Sherlock - Spokesperson on Argiculture & Food,
- Studied Economic & Politics at NUIG,
- Worked as an assistant to Labour Party MEP
Proinsias De Rossa at the Eurpean Parliament.

Roisin Shortall - Spokesperson on Social & Family Affairs,
- Educated at UCD and St. Mary's College of
Education, Marino.
- Former teacher of the Deaf.

Emmet Stagg - Labour Party Chief Whip,
- Studied at Kevin Street College of Technology,
- Worked as a Medical Technologist at Trinity College,
Dublin.

Joanna Tuffy - Spokesperson on Environmental and Heritage,
- Educated at Trinity College, Dublin and DIT
(Legal Studies)

Mary Upton - Spokesperson on Arts, Sport & Tourism,
- Educated at NUIG and UCD,
- Former lecturer.

Jack Wall - Spokesperson on Community and Rural Affairs,
- No University
- Former Electrician.

(The following are Seanad Éireann Sokesperson running for Dáil
seats)

Ivana Bacik - Seanad Spokesperson on Justice, Arts, Sports and
Tourism.
- Educated at Trinity College, Dublin and the London
School of Economics (LLB & LLM repectively).
- Practising Barrister and teaches classes in
Criminology, Constitutional Law, Feminist Theories
and Law.

Dominic Hannigan - Seanad Spokesperson on Commuter Issues,
Environment & Local Government, Foreign
Affairs and Defense.
- Studied at UCD (Engineering), City University
London (Masters in Transport) and University
of London (Masters in Finance),
- Engineer.

Phil Prendergast - Seanad Spokesperson on Health & Family Affairs,
and Party Spokesperson on Older People.
- Worked as a Nurse and later as a Midwife.

Brendan Ryan - Seanad Spokesperson on Enterprise, Trade and
Employment,
- Educated at DIT, UCD and DCU (Degree in Chemistry
and Masters' degrees in Food Science and Business
Administration).
- All his working life he has worked in industry
in the private sector, mainly in the technical
and operations areas, and in senior managerial
positions. He has worked in the Food and Chemicals
sectors of industry.

Alex White - Seanad Group Leader and Seanad Spokesperson on
Children,
- Educated at Trinity College, Dublin and the King's
Inn.
- Barrister.

Wow & with all those qualifications you would think they would refuse the political donations and tell the donors to give it back to FAS.

And ICTU's David Begg

THese people do know the difference between right & wrong given their qualifications.

Executive Committee

The Executive Committee members are listed here.
Dublin Office

General Secretary - David Begg

David Begg became General Secretary of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions in 2001. For five years prior to that he was Chief Executive of Concern Worldwide, an international humanitarian organisation working in 27 countries and with offices in Dublin, London, Belfast, New York and Chicago. He is also a Director of the Central Bank (since 1995), a Governor of the Irish Times Trust, non Executive Director of Aer Lingus, a member of the National Economic and Social Council (NESC), and of the Advisory Board of Development Co-operation Ireland. He also sits on the Executive Committee of the European Trade Union Confederation (ETUC).

David Begg is on the Board of the Central Bank that made such a hash of banking regulation.

Sarannej3

I am most unclear about Labour- they want to defer our Government finances correction, and thus borrow more for future generations to repay; then they want to burn the bond-holders- so who do they think will want to lend them more money?
They don't want to cut public spending, but rather favour increasing tax; with taxes of incomes over €100k at between 62 %and 65% they will certainly drive our more ambitious young folk abroad very quickly; at current elevated tax rates, the black economy is already taking hold, and with Labour's increases, this will rise and rise.
We are trying to attract knowledge based economies- with high personal tax rates, we will not succeed in this area.
I can't see myself voting Labour.

irishh_bob

mox54 wrote: »

Whats wrong with Labour and sitpu working together, Fianna Fail and business are in bed together and look where we are now, at least the workers will have some say!:mad:

bertie was the most attentive lover unions ever had in this country and look where we are now

the only difference between labour and FF when it comes to unions is that FF court them for the votes where as with labour , its unconditional love , both situations result in a taking it up the ass by the tax payer

irishh_bob

pajor wrote: »

I would have thought that the Labour party of today was very different, of the Labour party 20, 30 years ago or even since Dick Spring was leader.

So much so, that with the unions and Labour's 'close relationship', that they could in fact, reel the unions in and prevent episodes such as the recent Aer Lingus fiasco.

gilmore is the most left wing labour leader in decades , he has shifted the party closer towards the unions

Killer Pigeon

Sarannej3 wrote: »

I am most unclear about Labour- they want to defer our Government finances correction, and thus borrow more for future generations to repay; then they want to burn the bond-holders- so who do they think will want to lend them more money?
They don't want to cut public spending, but rather favour increasing tax; with taxes of incomes over €100k at between 62 %and 65% they will certainly drive our more ambitious young folk abroad very quickly; at current elevated tax rates, the black economy is already taking hold, and with Labour's increases, this will rise and rise.
We are trying to attract knowledge based economies- with high personal tax rates, we will not succeed in this area.
I can't see myself voting Labour.

1. Labour (as Fine Gael) want to renegotiate the IMF/EU bailout do that Ireland can have a fairer deal. They want to reduce the interest rate on the loan and extend the period to pay it off. In essence they want a less cribbing deal. Labour don't necessarily want to burn the bond holders (that's more of a United Left Alliance approach) but they believe that they should incur some losses. The strategy is basically to create a fairer deal and have it negotiated in such a way that will not hinder the countries ability to borrow money in the future. To clarify Labour doesn't hold the ULA's stance on the IMF/EU bailout.
2. Labour want to increase the tax for people earning over a €100,000. I don't know where you are getting these figures from, it's more like 40-45%. Also, to clarify, it's not going to be 40-45% of your total income if you earn over €100,000. Let's say you earn €120,000, you will pay a higher tax rate on the amount over €100,000 which in this case is 40-45% of €20,000.

Killer Pigeon

irishh_bob wrote: »

bertie was the most attentive lover unions ever had in this country and look where we are now

the only difference between labour and FF when it comes to unions is that FF court them for the votes where as with labour , its unconditional love , both situations result in a taking it up the ass by the tax payer

Oh so Berties love for the Unions brought us to our present situation (???).

How about him being in bed with the developers who pumped up the construction industry. What about the banks who gave them the money. This is what created the boom which eventually bust. First the construction industry was destroyed then the banks, etc.. it was like a domino effect.

Have we forgotten this already?

CDfm

1. Labour (as Fine Gael) want to renegotiate the IMF/EU bailout do that Ireland can have a fairer deal. They want to reduce the interest rate on the loan and extend the period to pay it off. In essence they want a less cribbing deal. Labour don't necessarily want to burn the bond holders (that's more of a United Left Alliance approach) but they believe that they should incur some losses. The strategy is basically to create a fairer deal and have it negotiated in such a way that will not hinder the countries ability to borrow money in the future. To clarify Labour doesn't hold the ULA's stance on the IMF/EU bailout.

There is no doubt about it that part of the interest payment is punative because of our public spending wrecklessness.

1. Labour want to increase the tax for people earning over a €100,000. I don't know where you are getting these figures from, it's more like 40-45%. Also, to clarify, it's not going to be 40-45% of your total income if you earn over €100,000. Let's say you earn €120,000, you will pay a higher tax rate on the amount over €100,000 which in this case is 40-45% of €20,000.

The real issue is that spending must be brought down.

Even Croke Park is unrealistic now - renegotiating the terms of the bailout will mean deep cuts.


[/QUOTE]

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

Oh so Berties love for the Unions brought us to our present situation (???).

How about him being in bed with the developers who pumped up the construction industry. What about the banks who gave them the money. This is what created the boom which eventually bust. First the construction industry was destroyed then the banks, etc.. it was like a domino effect.

Have we forgotten this already?

Part of the problem is with the public service who in effect run the show.

Take the Central Bank and its Board and assess how dilligently they did their job.

The recession was forceable from 2006 or so and we were warned of it.All the politicians use relatively the same growth projections.

It is very simplistic to take the view that the government exercises executive power, in fact ,

06/01/2011 - 14:15:29
Former Taoiseach John Bruton claimed today that Ireland is run by civil servants who use TDs and Senators to administer their rule

Read up on what is termed the corporate state.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=70573816

So it is too simplistic to blame the government as such. The executive function has been exercised by the Public Service and the government is just one cog in the decision making process. It is not the only one.

You may not agree with it totally but it is a more realistic appraisal of who makes decisions.

The Government & not the public service or/and the unions have the Constitutional Authority.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=70573816

Tragedy

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

.
1. Labour want to increase the tax for people earning over a €100,000. I don't know where you are getting these figures from, it's more like 40-45%. Also, to clarify, it's not going to be 40-45% of your total income if you earn over €100,000. Let's say you earn €120,000, you will pay a higher tax rate on the amount over €100,000 which in this case is 40-45% of €20,000.

All below are Private A1
If you earn €50,000, you pay 30% in PAYE/PRSI/USC
If you earn €100,000 , you pay 40% in Tax/PRSI/USC.
If you earn €200,000, you pay 47%.
If you earn €200,000 as Public A1, you pay 56%.
Seems fairly equitable already.

CDfm

Sarannej3 wrote: »

I am most unclear about Labour- they want to defer our Government finances correction, and thus borrow more for future generations to repay; then they want to burn the bond-holders- so who do they think will want to lend them more money?

I can't see myself voting Labour.

A Politicians key responsibility is to get elected/re-elected. That does not mean the politician will do the right thing when in power.

Flashgordon197

Tim Robbins wrote: »

There is a symbiotic relationship between Labour and SIPTU.
Siptu make no apologies for it and are officially backing Labour in the election.

Why are they doing this?

What political favours do they expect in return?

If Labour get Minister for finance - what can we expect? More shopping trips to Newry?

Not everyone works in the public sector and not everyone is a member of SIPTU. Why should a vested interest be so close to a government when it only represents its own interests?

We have seen what a vested interest does when it gets politically powerful surely this is terrifying?

In my own case it has made me think the unthinkable give my 4th preference to FF.

Discuss...

Much better to have your party funded by business interests-like developers. That will see us right!

CDfm

Flashgordon197 wrote: »

Much better to have your party funded by business interests-like developers. That will see us right!

And who has suggested that.

What people want is straightforward honest government, not, dishonest interest based unelected government.

Flashgordon197

Trade unions have got a bad press lately. I know many friends in non union employment . Some are treated fairly but those who aint are treated quite poorly because they have no official channels to complain or back them up in a dispute. A lot of anti-trade unionism is simply jealosy that you dont have a union to protect your interests.

We have to decide as a nation whether we the tax payer want to fully fund political parties or not. If we don't want to fund them-then they will obviously look for funding from vested interests. The Trade unions did not create this mess. They played a part but by far the largest culprits are developers and bankers. We already fund Parties in part.

Do you want to stump up for political parties -yes or no?

Flashgordon197

CDfm wrote: »

And who has suggested that.

What people want is straightforward honest government, not, dishonest interest based unelected government.

Parties cost money to run. Its that simple. You -the tax payer pay or a vested interest does. You don't seem to grasp this. Not an attack-just trying to clarify how you think they will pay staff/research? Especially an opposition party. Not fair to zero in on Labours links to SIPTU alone. Given a toss up between liberty hall and the Galway Tent-I take the Union shilling any day.

If you reduce vested interest money then taxpayer must fill the void.