Opening/Closing of Chesterfield Avenue in the Phoenix Park

celticbest

Following on from a thread which I originally posted regarding the resurfacing of Chesterfield Avenue in the Phoenix Park ( http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=62059129 ) it has come to light that some people would wish to see it closed to through traffic ie. Commuter, rat run traffic etc. so I thought I'd create a poll to get peoples opinion on whether it should be closed or not.

Cookie_Monster

I believe a system similar to the one UCD has, where certain roads are gated at rush hour to prevent commuters over-running the campus is what should be implemented.

The park was never designed nor intended to be for commuter use and only though lazy management and lax direction from DCC and the OPW have created the current situation where it is allowed.

Of course to remove it now would cause huge issues to all these commuter who believe its a valid route, but if it had always be restricted then it would not be an issue.

Failing this stringent application of the 30kph limits within the park would at least reduced traffic IMO if people are made realise its not as quick.

mgmt

It may happen. The following is taken from the OPWs "The Phoenix Park Conservation Management Plan":

SO 9.1
To reduce the environmental impact of traffic travelling through The Phoenix Park

Action 9.2
Consider restricting unnecessary traffic from the Park, but in so doing to take account of the function of certain vehicular routes through The Phoenix Park, as well as addressing the impact of closure on any particular route on the surrounding area. Unnecessary and or through traffic restriction at weekends will also be considered.

Action 9.5
Limit through traffic at weekends to facilitate increased recreational use of the Park.

http://www.phoenixpark.ie/media/Phoenix%20Park%20Conservation%20Management%20Plan%20Consultation%20Draft%20March%202009.pdf

monument

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I believe a system similar to the one UCD has, where certain roads are gated at rush hour to prevent commuters over-running the campus is what should be implemented.

The park was never designed nor intended to be for commuter use and only though lazy management and lax direction from DCC and the OPW have created the current situation where it is allowed.

Of course to remove it now would cause huge issues to all these commuter who believe its a valid route, but if it had always be restricted then it would not be an issue.

Failing this stringent application of the 30kph limits within the park would at least reduced traffic IMO if people are made realise its not as quick.

I'd only be supportive of stopping through traffic restriction at weekends at this stage. It would be too much to remove all commuter traffic from the route.

But enforcing the 30km/h limit -- via traffic calming -- should be done anyway to limit the impact of cars on the road and on the park as a whole. It would allow people to cross the main avenue, which can be mad hard to do.

mgmt

Chesterfield Avenue will remain closed to public transport :mad:

Phoenix Park bus corridor plan rejected

Ruling is bad luck for commuters, who have to make a 90-minute detour around the park

Buses are to remain banned from the Phoenix Park, following a ruling by An Bord Pleanala. The Office of Public Works (OPW) had been hoping to build a dedicated bus corridor along Chesterfield Avenue, which runs the length of the historic park, but the planning appeals board has ruled that a bus service would “greatly increase the undesirable urbanisation of the park”.

An Bord Pleanala said that putting a Quality Bus Corridor (QBC) through the 1,760-acre grounds would “have a material and adverse impact on the character and amenities of the historic landscape and conservation area”.

While trams ran through the park in the early 20th century, there has been a long-standing ban on buses. The OPW and the Quality Bus Network (QBN) had promised only to run services to Castleknock and Blanchardstown, and to use environmentally-friendly buses. They also promised to restrict bus journeys to peak times, only bringing travellers into the city centre in the morning and home in the evenings.

Commuters, some of whom have also lobbied for the ban to be lifted for decades, currently have to take a 90-minute detour around the park, which has an 11km circumference. Ciaran de Burca of the QBN said the new dedicated lane would have taken 20 minutes off the journey time from Castleknock or Blanchardstown into the centre.

Dublin city council granted permission for buses to run through the park earlier this year, but the Navan Road Community Council appealed the decision, arguing that allowing a bus service to run through the Phoenix Park was “an insult to the legal protection afforded by successive governments to this national monument”.

An Bord Pleanala’s inspector said that a regular bus service would have “notable repercussions” because modern buses are “brightly coloured, carry extensive advertising signs and frequently emit odorous fumes”.

He wrote that their presence “would not be consistent with conservation of an extensive parkland, with free-roaming herds of wild animals”.

The park was walled in the 17th century, when the Viceroy in Dublin, Lord Ormonde, established it as a deer-hunting park. It was first opened to the public by Lord Chesterfield in 1745 and remains the largest walled park in Europe.
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/article6638835.ece

trellheim

Chesterfield Avenue will remain closed to public transport

daymobrew

Commuters, some of whom have also lobbied for the ban to be lifted for decades, currently have to take a 90-minute detour around the park, which has an 11km circumference.

That's walking speed. I could run that in half that time and cycle it in less than 1/3.

ThisRegard

daymobrew wrote: »

That's walking speed. I could run that in half that time and cycle it in less than 1/3.

I'm very sceptical of that quote. I commute from that side of the city and never use the park, unless when I'm on the bike, and never take more than an hour at worse to get into the south of the city centre. I don't know where the 90 minutes comes from.

L1011

The internal roads would need serious improvement to allow buses to use it. Not that that'd be a bad thing, just unfortunately true. In particularly its like the surface of the moon at Castleknock Gate...

sdanseo

mgmt wrote: »

Chesterfield Avenue will remain closed to public transport :mad:

Too bloody right. It's a park, not a thoroughfare. It's a carpark sosome times ofthe day and that''s not what it's there for, it shouldn't be allowed. I don't give a flying shít how people get from castleknock to work, but it shouldn't be through the only half decent urban park in the country.

foggy_lad

How about putting toll/ticket gates at all exits and when you drive in one gate you take a ticket and can freely drive out the same gate but will have to pay to exit through any route deemed a rat-run from where you entered.

AngryLips

Maybe they could put something like this at the main entrance?

antoinolachtnai

Surely it is possible to marry the objectives of:

- reducing traffic and noise in the park
- improving access to the park for the people of the city
- improving public transport links for people in Castleknock and Blanchardstown

jack presley

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

-
- improving public transport links for people in Castleknock and Blanchardstown

Dublin Bus tried that. It consisted of taking 25% of the buses out of service and severely deteriorating the service yet putting a nice spin on it by calling to Network Direct

jack presley

foggy_lad wrote: »

How about putting toll/ticket gates at all exits and when you drive in one gate you take a ticket and can freely drive out the same gate but will have to pay to exit through any route deemed a rat-run from where you entered.

yeah, that'll be cheap to implement and run. And we've loads of spare money in the country at the moment to use on well thought out schemes like this!

mikemac

To be looked at anyway.

Maybe for a first step stop through traffic at weekends.
The Park is not meant as a shortcut for commuters and not so many at weekends

After that you can look at other options.
Introduce things gradually.

Not suddenly announce gates at all entrances and exits which left people surprised
Better to have gradual steps then have a 100% ban which then gets rowed back on

jack presley

feelingstressed wrote: »

To be looked at anyway.

Maybe for a first step stop through traffic at weekends.
The Park is not meant as a shortcut for commuters and not so many at weekends

After that you can look at other options.
Introduce things gradually.

Not suddenly announce gates at all entrances and exits which left people surprised
Better to have gradual steps then have a 100% ban which then gets rowed back on

You'll need practical alternatives though before any changes are made. Public transport is getting reduced at the moment so that'll have to be reversed. Then you'll have to think about the affects shutting Chesterfield Avenue will have on the Navan Road traffic. Has anyone thought of the knock on effects? Thought not.

BrianD

jack presley wrote: »

You'll need practical alternatives though before any changes are made. Public transport is getting reduced at the moment so that'll have to be reversed. Then you'll have to think about the affects shutting Chesterfield Avenue will have on the Navan Road traffic. Has anyone thought of the knock on effects? Thought not.

Absolutely not. The "alternatives" are there already. You could close it with no impact on the city traffic flow other than inconveniencing the locals.

You have the N3 to the north of the park, N4 to the south, M50 to the west. The knock on effects would not be significant. Take N3 traffic - plenty of bus options and there's rail out to Co. Meath.

Granted there would be some temporary knock on effects to local traffic in the immediate vicinity of the park i.e. local residential traffic.

Something else that the park authorities should look at is the large amount of commuter parking at the Parkgate St. end of Chesterfield Ave. Seems to be an informal Park and Ride. Should be metered.

jack presley

BrianD wrote: »

Absolutely not. The "alternatives" are there already. You could close it with no impact on the city traffic flow other than inconveniencing the locals.

You have the N3 to the north of the park, N4 to the south, M50 to the west. The knock on effects would not be significant. Take N3 traffic - plenty of bus options and there's rail out to Co. Meath.

Granted there would be some temporary knock on effects to local traffic in the immediate vicinity of the park i.e. local residential traffic.

Something else that the park authorities should look at is the large amount of commuter parking at the Parkgate St. end of Chesterfield Ave. Seems to be an informal Park and Ride. Should be metered.

Rail to Co. Meath? Only as far as Dunboyne at the moment I think.


Obviously someone who doesn't use public transport out to D15 or someone who travels along the the Navan Road in the evenings or mornings.

CIE

I don't understand this consensus about Chesterfield Avenue "not meant for" road (commuter/shoppers) traffic merely because it's the widest road in the Phoenix Park. Should Castleknock Road and Auburn Avenue (Martin's Row, Knockmaroon Hill, Tower Road and College Road from the Chapelizod area if you're really desperate) be the only major roadways to get from the city centre to Castleknock then? I'm for opening up the Castleknock Gate full time; if you want to barrier off the side roads on nights and weekends, then that's fine too, but Chesterfield is too important an artery to completely cut off. I'd even propose running a permanent bus service to Blanchardstown Centre from there via Castleknock to take the pressure off the 37 and 38/A. Toll plazas aren't a bad idea either.

(Traffic on the Navan Road is bad enough, to the point where I'm surprised that they haven't made Blackhorse Avenue one-way westbound and Navan Road one-way eastbound, besides...)

monument

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Surely it is possible to marry the objectives of:

- reducing traffic and noise in the park
- improving access to the park for the people of the city
- improving public transport links for people in Castleknock and Blanchardstown

That's an interesting one: Poor public transport is the reason many people give for using the park as a driving route, but would they come up with another reason if public transport was improved?

To get over the previous mentioned judgement, along with low noise and greener buses, if necessary you could have a ban on ads on any buses entering the park and they could even be painted with less bright colours.

CIE wrote: »

I don't understand this consensus about Chesterfield Avenue "not meant for" road (commuter/shoppers) traffic merely because it's the widest road in the Phoenix Park....

Could it not even be done on a Sunday?

daymobrew

jack presley wrote: »

Dublin Bus tried that. It consisted of taking 25% of the buses out of service and severely deteriorating the service yet putting a nice spin on it by calling to Network Direct

They reduced services because usage had dramatically dropped.

CIE wrote: »

I don't understand this consensus about Chesterfield Avenue "not meant for" road (commuter/shoppers) traffic merely because it's the widest road in the Phoenix Park.

It is "not meant for" because it is in a park, nothing to do with the width.

jack presley wrote: »

Rail to Co. Meath? Only as far as Dunboyne at the moment I think.

Obviously someone who doesn't use public transport out to D15 or someone who travels along the the Navan Road in the evenings or mornings.

If more people took public transport then things would move quicker. Obviously public transport, as it is serving many people, can involve personal sacrifice (no bus or train will bring you from your front door to right outside your destination).

For some people a folding bike and a bus or train can be as quick as a private vehicle.

jack presley

daymobrew wrote: »

.

For some people a folding bike and a bus or train can be as quick as a private vehicle.

But the problem in D15 (where I'd say along with Co. Meath, the main commuters using Chesterfield Avenue come from) is that buses don't come when they're supposed to so it's all well and good having a bike to fold up and use when you get off the bus but if you're still waiting at the bus-stop 20-30 minutes after the bus you intended on taking still hasn't arrived, it's not worth a curse.

And as for Network Direct being as a result of reduced demand, fair enough but the problem is that as well as having less buses on the route, the ones that are still supposed to be running quite often don't show up and can't be relied upon.

Which brings me full circle back to where I started on this argument a few pages back. If you're going to shut Chesterfield Avenue for commuter traffic, you have to have an adequate and reliable public transport system in place which we don't have at the moment and aren't going to have for the foreseeable future.

monument

jack presley wrote: »

But the problem in D15 (where I'd say along with Co. Meath, the main commuters using Chesterfield Avenue come from) is that buses don't come when they're supposed to so it's all well and good having a bike to fold up and use when you get off the bus but if you're still waiting at the bus-stop 20-30 minutes after the bus you intended on taking still hasn't arrived, it's not worth a curse....

For many of those in the D15 areas closest to the park cycling the whole way is also a very viable option.

BrianD

jack presley wrote: »

Rail to Co. Meath? Only as far as Dunboyne at the moment I think.


Obviously someone who doesn't use public transport out to D15 or someone who travels along the the Navan Road in the evenings or mornings.

It's a park and ride. The solution exists.


Being from Meath on the N3 corridor, I'm well familiar with the territory.

CIE

daymobrew wrote: »

They reduced services because usage had dramatically dropped

No, usage dropped because they reduced service.

daymobrew wrote: »

me wrote: »

I don't understand this consensus about Chesterfield Avenue "not meant for" road (commuter/shoppers) traffic merely because it's the widest road in the Phoenix Park

It is "not meant for" because it is in a park, nothing to do with the width

No logic to that reply there. The definition of "park" does not include "not driven through in motor vehicles". Quite often it does mean that it hosts through routes for motor vehicles. And I'm still of the opinion that there ought to be a waiver to allow a city bus route to operate on Chesterfield Avenue.

jack presley

monument wrote: »

For many of those in the D15 areas closest to the park cycling the whole way is also a very viable option.

It's a whole different debate that I don't think we should go down on this thread but not everyone is in the physical condition or age to start cycling after driving or busing for x number of years and to suggest that everyone's capable of switching over to cycling is a bit naive I think.

monument

jack presley wrote: »

It's a whole different debate that I don't think we should go down on this thread but not everyone is in the physical condition or age to start cycling after driving or busing for x number of years and to suggest that everyone's capable of switching over to cycling is a bit naive I think.

It's not really a whole different debate. It's interlinked. It's one of the alternatives.

I never said everybody was able for it, but a large percentage of people are -- thousands and thousands of people on this route alone who currently drive are well able to cycle. Many people does not equal everyone.

In fact, not only are many people able to cycle it, cycling would improve their health and well-being, and save them money.

And no, not everybody is even able to start doing it five days a week straight away. The general advice is to start once or twice a week. Once you get used to it, it's easier to cycle more often. And once you're cycling for a while, you're able to do it a little faster and so on. For some it suits for different reasons to keep cycling just once or twice a week.

It's far easier and faster than most people think. It rains slightly less here in Dublin than Amsterdam and Copenhagen where up to 50% of commuters cycle. You get a little fitter as you go on and small amounts of regular exercise like cycling makes you feel better. It'll save you money -- even the money buying a bicycle is quickly saved by using the bus or car a little or a lot less.

BrianD

@Monument - it would would be great to see Chesterfield Ave used as a dedicated cycle route during rush hour (and as part of a larger route).

@Jack Presley - I think the issue of public transport is not relevant. The N3 corridor is already well served with both bus and rail options.

However, I think even if the public transport service imaginable the Park would continue to be used by commuters. It will still provide the shortest point to point journeys for some people.

daymobrew

CIE wrote: »

No, usage dropped because they reduced service.No logic to that reply there.

I believe usage dropped first. We will have to agree to disagree on this point.

CIE wrote: »

daymobrew wrote:

I don't understand this consensus about Chesterfield Avenue "not meant for" road (commuter/shoppers) traffic merely because it's the widest road in the Phoenix Park

It is "not meant for" because it is in a park, nothing to do with the width

The definition of "park" does not include "not driven through in motor vehicles". Quite often it does mean that it hosts through routes for motor vehicles. And I'm still of the opinion that there ought to be a waiver to allow a city bus route to operate on Chesterfield Avenue.

I agree with the definition of a park. I was answering your specific query about the "consensus" about Chesterfield Ave.

monument wrote: »

And no, not everybody is even able to start doing it five days a week straight away. The general advice is to start once or twice a week. Once you get used to it, it's easier to cycle more often. And once you're cycling for a while, you're able to do it a little faster and so on. For some it suits for different reasons to keep cycling just once or twice a week.

It's far easier and faster than most people think. It rains slightly less here in Dublin than Amsterdam and Copenhagen where up to 50% of commuters cycle. You get a little fitter as you go on and small amounts of regular exercise like cycling makes you feel better. It'll save you money -- even the money buying a bicycle is quickly saved by using the bus or car a little or a lot less.

A few of my friends have been converted to cycling since the Bike to Work scheme. They started out with 1 day a week and are now doing close to 5 days. They are even doing longer weekend cycles eg cycling along the canal down to Croke Park during the summer.

On the topic of alternatives, I wish companies would support telecommuting. A company I used to work for was very supportive of this. I would work at home 2 days a week. On other days I would work at home for an hour or two in the morning, allowing any rain to pass or outside temp to warm up. When I worked at home I often worked longer hours than when I went into the office (I cycled the 9 miles to the office).

zipzoc

Hello. Wondering if there's a more recent thread on this somewhere? The OPW has again decided to close a portion of Chesterfield Avenue each weekend for the summer even though that area remains unused by pedestrians and cyclists each time I pass by. In my opinion it's a complete waste of time and a total inconvenience to drivers who use Chesterfield Avenue daily, especially people who live in Castleknock/Blanchardstown. If they're going to do this they should at least open the road on the other side of the park (Corkscrew Road) to allow easy access to the south side. After all these years, I think it's quite inconsiderate to close that part to traffic without any consultation with the public.

jack presley

zipzoc wrote: »

Hello. Wondering if there's a more recent thread on this somewhere? The OPW has again decided to close a portion of Chesterfield Avenue each weekend for the summer even though that area remains unused by pedestrians and cyclists each time I pass by. In my opinion it's a complete waste of time and a total inconvenience to drivers who use Chesterfield Avenue daily, especially people who live in Castleknock/Blanchardstown. If they're going to do this they should at least open the road on the other side of the park (Corkscrew Road) to allow easy access to the south side. After all these years, I think it's quite inconsiderate to close that part to traffic without any consultation with the public.

I'm not a fan of it either but to be fair, there was a public consultation process so we had our chance to object. When it ended last season they had big signs up with an email address or something to give your opinons etc.

BenShermin

zipzoc wrote: »

The OPW has again decided to close a portion of Chesterfield Avenue each weekend for the summer even though that area remains unused by pedestrians and cyclists each time I pass by.

Really?? Because when they closed the road last year I literally saw hundreds of pedestrians, skateboarders, roller skaters and cyclists using the road when I cycled up on a Sunday.

IMO Chesterfield Avenue should be completely closed off to private traffic 24/7. The road should only be used by cyclists and Dublin Bus to offer D15 residents an express service to the city centre.

jack presley

BenShermin wrote: »

IMO Chesterfield Avenue should be completely closed off to private traffic 24/7. The road should only be used by cyclists and Dublin Bus to offer D15 residents an express service to the city centre.

In an ideal world maybe but the standard of public transport for D15 at the moment isn't good enough to support something like this and closing the park couldn't be done until acceptable public transport is put in place. And unfortunately due to losses and increasing costs, Dublin Bus have been reducing routes and in my part of D15, there are now less direct routes into the city than there were before the 'Network Direct' or whatever that programme was called came into effect.

So the chances of them being able to now offer express routes (and there'll have to be a good few routes as D15 is a fairly big area) are slim to none. And the gate at Castleknock is quite tight too so a double decker bus might have trouble squeezing through and I don't think we should go around changing the aesthetics of the entrances park for something like this anyway.

BenShermin

I'm afraid you're not looking at the bigger picture here. The reason why bus services in D15 are so bad is because they spend ridiculous amounts of time stuck in traffic on the Navan Road. If buses had access to a car-free Chesterfield Avenue then the journey times would automatically become quicker and therefore frequencies could improve, even with DBs limited resources after Network Direct.

Widening a gate would be a small price to pay for a car free/carbon free park.

dowlingm

If DB had electric buses acquired for a Phoenix Park service would ABP be okay with it then?

Con Logue

jack presley wrote: »

In an ideal world maybe but the standard of public transport for D15 at the moment isn't good enough to support something like this and closing the park couldn't be done until acceptable public transport is put in place. And unfortunately due to losses and increasing costs, Dublin Bus have been reducing routes and in my part of D15, there are now less direct routes into the city than there were before the 'Network Direct' or whatever that programme was called came into effect.

So the chances of them being able to now offer express routes (and there'll have to be a good few routes as D15 is a fairly big area) are slim to none. And the gate at Castleknock is quite tight too so a double decker bus might have trouble squeezing through and I don't think we should go around changing the aesthetics of the entrances park for something like this anyway.

Well we do have plenty of form as a country to say "feck the aesthetics" for the benefit of through traffic. Who is to say that it won't happen again?

TheDB

jack presley wrote: »

In an ideal world maybe but the standard of public transport for D15 at the moment isn't good enough to support something like this and closing the park couldn't be done until acceptable public transport is put in place. And unfortunately due to losses and increasing costs, Dublin Bus have been reducing routes and in my part of D15, there are now less direct routes into the city than there were before the 'Network Direct' or whatever that programme was called came into effect.

So the chances of them being able to now offer express routes (and there'll have to be a good few routes as D15 is a fairly big area) are slim to none. And the gate at Castleknock is quite tight too so a double decker bus might have trouble squeezing through and I don't think we should go around changing the aesthetics of the entrances park for something like this anyway.

I don't really think your points make any sense. Express bus through the park would increase passenger uptake of public transport in Dublin 15. You talk about aesthetics - 10 million car journeys are made through the park, it is being used primarily as a commuter run and people are being bullied away from using the amenity as it should be used. There is ample room for buses through the Castleknock gate:

http://maps.google.ie/maps?rlz=1C2CHMG_en-USIE291&q=natural%20stone%20paving&psj=1&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.46751780,d.ZGU&biw=1024&bih=649&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&sa=N&tab=wl

They made serious proposals on this about 5 - 6 years ago. I went to a residents meeting on this issue organised by Fianna Fail, with Brian Lenihan in attendance. The residents of Castleknock did not want buses through the park because they believed commuters would then park around the estates of Castleknock clogging up their streets.

Con Logue

TheDB wrote: »

I don't really think your points make any sense. Express bus through the park would increase passenger uptake of public transport in Dublin 15. You talk about aesthetics - 10 million car journeys are made through the park, it is being used primarily as a commuter run and people are being bullied away from using the amenity as it should be used. There is ample room for buses through the Castleknock gate:

http://maps.google.ie/maps?rlz=1C2CHMG_en-USIE291&q=natural%20stone%20paving&psj=1&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.46751780,d.ZGU&biw=1024&bih=649&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&sa=N&tab=wl

They made serious proposals on this about 5 - 6 years ago. I went to a residents meeting on this issue organised by Fianna Fail, with Brian Lenihan in attendance. The residents of Castleknock did not want buses through the park because they believed commuters would then park around the estates of Castleknock clogging up their streets.

I don't think going to a Fianna Fáil meeting in the expectation of anything happening makes sense either, but YMMV.

Seeing as Chesterfield Avenue near the Wellington Monument gets pretty severely congested town bound I imagine levels of car use will discourage new users from coming through. If the Navan Road is too congested for buses to use effectively then it is a pretty damning indictment of the whole "QBC" model as well. Priorities for buses at junctions need to be attended to if there is a chance of that working.

There are also reasonable frequencies on the Maynooth/M3 line at peak and I am sure there is spare capacity at Navan Road Parkway for it to be used for Park and Ride.

All of these options should be exhausted before the park is used for buses. I'm not confident it would work given how congested it gets between the park and Myos so any advantage of running buses only through Chesterfield Avenue could easily be lost, and I personally do not believe that sacrificing the gates at Castleknock is worth it for that.

jack presley

TheDB wrote: »

I don't really think your points make any sense. Express bus through the park would increase passenger uptake of public transport in Dublin 15. You talk about aesthetics - 10 million car journeys are made through the park, it is being used primarily as a commuter run and people are being bullied away from using the amenity as it should be used. There is ample room for buses through the Castleknock gate:

http://maps.google.ie/maps?rlz=1C2CHMG_en-USIE291&q=natural%20stone%20paving&psj=1&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.46751780,d.ZGU&biw=1024&bih=649&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&sa=N&tab=wl

They made serious proposals on this about 5 - 6 years ago. I went to a residents meeting on this issue organised by Fianna Fail, with Brian Lenihan in attendance. The residents of Castleknock did not want buses through the park because they believed commuters would then park around the estates of Castleknock clogging up their streets.

My points might not make any sense but I was responding to a post that stated "Chesterfield Avenue should be completely closed off to private traffic 24/7" and I live in the real world where I know where implementing such a move is never going to happen. There are too many obstacles, not even including Dublin Bus.

Regarding Castleknock Gate, I said it would be a "tight squeeze for a double decker bus" (not that it wouldn't fit), you say there's "ample room", I think you should take another look!

BenShermin

jack presley wrote: »

My points might not make any sense but I was responding to a post that stated "Chesterfield Avenue should be completely closed off to private traffic 24/7" and I live in the real world where I know where implementing such a move is never going to happen. There are too many obstacles, not even including Dublin Bus.

The same "real world" that saw Grafton Street pedestrianised??

If the powers that be in the Phoenix Park are closing off Chesterfield Avenue for the second Summer running then that just shows the success of the idea. The traffic management plans work well during the weekend closures and there's no reason why they wouldn't work well on weekdays either. The automatic improvements to bus services in D.15 would in turn mean less cars to manage anyway.

And yes, despite my horrible doze of idealism, I do live the the real world modern Dublin today. A Dublin of rising petrol prices, where Luas BXD is on the way, where the amount of Dublin Bikes will be tripled and the amount of stations almost doubled and where it will be soon possible to cycle from Adamstown to IFSC completely separate from motor traffic. Slowly but surely the tide is turning away from the private car in Dublin.

jack presley

BenShermin wrote: »

Slowly but surely the tide is turning away from the private car in Dublin.

Slowly, very slowly. Come back to me when it gets to second gear.

daymobrew

jack presley wrote: »

Regarding Castleknock Gate, I said it would be a "tight squeeze for a double decker bus" (not that it wouldn't fit), you say there's "ample room", I think you should take another look!

I think that one of the plans was for buses to enter at Ashtown Gate and go along North Road (one with the speed ramps) until the last roundabout at Wellington Monument.

HydeRoad

I would be very pro buses for Dublin, and I firmly believe Phoenix Park is NOT the place for buses. It is a public park, a public amenity, and should not have buses or cars, other than the tour buses which use it at present, and some form of limited car access for park use only. Not as a through route.

The fact is that the Navan Road QBC is badly designed rubbish, just like every other QBC in Dublin. You have to realise that these QBCs were designed to look good, to sell well, but NOT to have too drastic an impact on revenue earning car usage. There were a number of cases where well designed QBC junctions on other roads were tampered with, purely because the priority balance between car and bus favoured the bus too much. The Chapelizod bypass / SCR Road junction a case in point, where the bus lane was nobbled crossing the junction, where there was ample space to run the QBC straight through as originally designed.

A fully functioning and overly successful QBC on Navan Road is not wanted. A partial QBC, as presently stands, is what is wanted, so that car usage is not overly impacted. The buses move well in places, but are grossly held up in other places, needlessly so, and the overall journey time is far more than it could be if a different agenda was there.

I would happily design a well functioning QBC for the Navan Road, that would work far more efficiently and safely than the rubbish that is there at present. And there would be no need for buses to go through the park at all. But that sort of foresight and ingenuity is simply not wanted. We would rather have the problem, thanks, not the solution.

lucernarian

HydeRoad wrote: »

I would be very pro buses for Dublin, and I firmly believe Phoenix Park is NOT the place for buses. It is a public park, a public amenity, and should not have buses or cars, other than the tour buses which use it at present, and some form of limited car access for park use only. Not as a through route.

The fact is that the Navan Road QBC is badly designed rubbish, just like every other QBC in Dublin. You have to realise that these QBCs were designed to look good, to sell well, but NOT to have too drastic an impact on revenue earning car usage. There were a number of cases where well designed QBC junctions on other roads were tampered with, purely because the priority balance between car and bus favoured the bus too much. The Chapelizod bypass / SCR Road junction a case in point, where the bus lane was nobbled crossing the junction, where there was ample space to run the QBC straight through as originally designed.

A fully functioning and overly successful QBC on Navan Road is not wanted. A partial QBC, as presently stands, is what is wanted, so that car usage is not overly impacted. The buses move well in places, but are grossly held up in other places, needlessly so, and the overall journey time is far more than it could be if a different agenda was there.

I would happily design a well functioning QBC for the Navan Road, that would work far more efficiently and safely than the rubbish that is there at present. And there would be no need for buses to go through the park at all. But that sort of foresight and ingenuity is simply not wanted. We would rather have the problem, thanks, not the solution.

An excellent post. +1 to everything there. Especially if there's an acceptable way to accommodate cars parked outside people's houses in the vicinity of the church and Garda station.

daymobrew

HydeRoad wrote: »

I would happily design a well functioning QBC for the Navan Road, that would work far more efficiently and safely than the rubbish that is there at present.

Can you please describe what changes you would make to the Navan Road QBC?

HydeRoad

daymobrew wrote: »

Can you please describe what changes you would make to the Navan Road QBC?

I am not being facetious or glib when I say no, that is not possible. How could I sum up the needs of a properly designed QBC in one short forum post? There are so many considerations, to every class of road user, and the QBC is simply one part of what should be a complete design package for a road, to include pedestrians, buses, bicycles, cars, lorries, junctions, parking, servicing and emergency services, an enormous task.

The fact is that almost Dublin's entire road infrastructure is lazily and inadequately considered. For the most part, it encompasses footpaths and kerb lines that were laid down a hundred years or more ago, with arbitrary white and yellow road markings that roughly divide an existing road space in two, regardless of lane widths, traffic control, efficient and safe traffic flow, leaving a general free for all, and leaving it up to everyone to decide themselves how many lanes there are, or who has priority.

This is all complicated further by a forest of dirty silver poles, with all manner of ugly and ill-considered signage and light signals, that contribute nothing to the environment, are often an obstruction themselves, and are rarely part of a cohesive and readily readable traffic management system.

I am afraid it would take a lot more than a forum post to suggest the changes necessary. It would take a volume of books to do so. But it's not that it cannot be changed for the better. It is that it is not wanted to be changed, at all.

monument

Any QBC on the Navan Road would be too compromised without large amounts of land take.

Buses only on North Road in the park is a good comperise.

dowlingm

Tour buses are hardly unobtrusive. Maybe the park should have a dedicated internal transportation system using electric vehicles with tour buses etc. obliged to pickup/dropoff near the entrances to the park.

jack presley

dowlingm wrote: »

Tour buses are hardly unobtrusive. Maybe the park should have a dedicated internal transportation system using electric vehicles with tour buses etc. obliged to pickup/dropoff near the entrances to the park.

Sorry if my sarcasm radar is off and you're making a comment on that exact plan that was put in place a couple of years ago but only lasted a few months as only about 4 people a day used the buses.

jack presley

monument wrote: »

Any QBC on the Navan Road would be too compromised without large amounts of land take.

Yeah, there's only enough room for 3 lanes at most so unless you have one of those lanes that change direction depending on the time of the day, you're always going to be stuck with a bus land in one direction only. And as we in Ireland don't obey bus lanes, stop in yellow boxes etc., I can't see one of those reversible lanes being a success