Cost of Motoring

rodento

Just heard that Fine Geal plans to increase motor tax and carbon tax.

Anyone know what the other parties plan for the poor much malined motorist

Cookie_Monster

More carbon tax will only further damage to the transport sector and will not aid recovery in any way.

As for motor tax, motorists here already pay huge tax and governments seem to think they are an un-ending resource despite the complete lack of PT outside the cities and Dublin Bus doing it's best to remove the network in Dublin.

DB prices have gone up recently, so its not like they even provide a cheap alternative anymore, despite deflation for the last few years.

RichardAnd

You can't tax a country out of recession. We shouldn't be looking at raising taxes until every avenue of cuts has been explored.

ei.sdraob

/waits with a big stick for a FG canvasser to come along...

sigh

rodento

Why was this moved, surely its a general election issue

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Cookie_Monster

rodento wrote: »

Why was this moved, surely its a general election issue

It should be I doubt it will be tbh, too many other bigger thing that the parties want to blab about

Sesshoumaru

I posted this in a different forum already, but I think it's relevant here as well:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/feb/08/saudi-oil-reserves-overstated-wikileaks

Expect the cost of motoring to go up anyway!

ei.sdraob

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

I posted this in a different forum already, but I think it's relevant here as well:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/feb/08/saudi-oil-reserves-overstated-wikileaks

Expect the cost of motoring to go up anyway!

We had articles like this back in 2008 in Guardian etc, hailing the end of oil
it ended up being speculators going wild, this time there's plenty of newly printed money slushing about going from bubble to bubble and events in middle east are not helping.

be careful of pump and dump schemes

Sesshoumaru

ei.sdraob wrote: »

We had articles like this back in 2008 in Guardian etc, hailing the end of oil
it ended up being speculators going wild, this time there's plenty of newly printed money slushing about going from bubble to bubble and events in middle east are not helping.

be careful of pump and dump schemes

I recall those articles as well. The source of this article though makes me a little more worried. Also when I consider the secretive nature of the Saudi regime when it comes to how much oil they have, it makes me wonder what have they got to hide? and the simple fact that oil is a finite resource. No matter what new ingenious ways we come up with for extracting more of the stuff... it will eventually run out!

However I am not in favour of strangling the economy with more carbon taxes on fuel. But I wouldn't be in a rush to reduce taxes either. Making it cheaper is only bound to increase consumption and therefore our dependence on oil.

ei.sdraob

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

However I am not in favour of strangling the economy with more carbon taxes on fuel. But I wouldn't be in a rush to reduce taxes either. Making it cheaper is only bound to increase consumption and therefore our dependence on oil.

Don't worry the world wont end if oil runs out, if anything we should be taking advantage of the cheap energy to grow the economy, fast

Sesshoumaru

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Don't worry the world wont end if oil runs out, if anything we should be taking advantage of the cheap energy to grow the economy, fast

I'm not worried about the world ending. Maybe just civilisation as we know it

This is maybe going a little off topic. But if I look at a country like the USA, which traditionally had low taxes on fuel. Engine sizes over there are stupidly big and fuel economy in the average American car is very poor compared to Europe. Now over in Europe we have much higher taxes on fuels and people generally drive much smaller and more fuel efficient cars.

More recently in Ireland we've seen people who buy new cars going for the most fuel efficient cars as these have much lower road tax. People opting for cars that require less energy is in my opinion a good thing. Lowering taxes will only encourage people to go out and start buying large displacement petrol engined cars.

I don't say any of that as some sort of fanatical eco warrior. I love my motorcycle and car! People can argue about oil reserve levels and new techniques for extracting oil etc But at the end of the day peak oil isn't a matter of "if it will happen?" it's just a matter of when will it happen.

ei.sdraob

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

I'm not worried about the world ending. Maybe just civilisation as we know it

This is maybe going a little off topic. But if I look at a country like the USA, which traditionally had low taxes on fuel. Engine sizes over there are stupidly big and fuel economy in the average American car is very poor compared to Europe. Now over in Europe we have much higher taxes on fuels and people generally drive much smaller and more fuel efficient cars.

If you look at US you would see their economy has recovered and unemployment is falling. The people I met there do drive alot, but they also have no issue finding jobs due to their mobility and businesses can grow faster without having to pay extra.

Having petrol at 2.5x-3x the US did not make Ireland any less "dependant", people still need to get around and a modern economy still needs needs businesses and customers to be mobile.

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

More recently in Ireland we've seen people who buy new cars going for the most fuel efficient cars as these have much lower road tax. People opting for cars that require less energy is in my opinion a good thing. Lowering taxes will only encourage people to go out and start buying large displacement petrol engined cars.

In your opinion, we went thru the whole begrudgery thing about what people drive in a parallel thread.

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

People can argue about oil reserve levels and new techniques for extracting oil etc But at the end of the day peak oil isn't a matter of "if it will happen?" it's just a matter of when will it happen.

As I said it doesn't matter we live in a world full of energy, peak oil != peak energy, we already have technologies to tap into the limitless energy in the atoms, convert solids and gas to fuel, modify grow biocrops and algae and capture the suns energy.

The argument that we should tax fuel so people use it less is daft, if only all that attention was focused on research instead.

Sesshoumaru

Don't worry I'm fully aware that peak oil does not equal peak energy. As someone who works in IT I take a keen interest in reading about other areas of technology, particularly those related to energy production. I didn't want to get into it here, but my problem with oil goes deeper than just its cost and inevitable scarcity. I have a problem with sending my money to fundamentalist regimes around the world.

But anyways... time will tell on who had the correct approach. I don't believe the American economy is doing as well as you say and in time as oil becomes scarcer we will see which countries transition to our new energy source more successfully.

Funnily enough you lament the lack of money being diverted to research, while simultaneously praising US policy on fuel taxation. Yet the ITER and LHC are both based in Europe and both mostly funded by Europe The ITER obviously being an energy project and while not an energy project, the LHC as a big basic science experiment holds the prospect of discovering lots of new and potentially useful technologies when it comes to energy.

ei.sdraob

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Don't worry I'm fully aware that peak oil does not equal peak energy. As someone who works in IT I take a keen interest in reading about other areas of technology, particularly those related to energy production. I didn't want to get into it here, but my problem with oil goes deeper than just its cost and inevitable scarcity. I have a problem with sending my money to fundamentalist regimes around the world.

some reading for you

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

But anyways... time will tell on who had the correct approach. I don't believe the American economy is doing as well as you say and in time as oil becomes scarcer we will see which countries transition to our new energy source more successfully.

Go and see for yourself, I was there few months ago, while there are regional issues the overall economy is doing relatively well, and more importantly people are being employed.

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Funnily enough you lament the lack of money being diverted to research, while simultaneously praising US policy on fuel taxation. Yet the ITER and LHC are both based in Europe and both mostly funded by Europe The ITER obviously being an energy project and while not an energy project, the LHC as a big basic science experiment holds the prospect of discovering lots of new and potentially useful technologies when it comes to energy.

The US is a major partner at ITER along with the rest of the main economies, they also have their own separate efforts.

We on the other hand tax alot, get little infrastructure and public transport in return for our motoring taxes (of all kinds), and waste the rest on inflated wages and dead banks.

cavedave

You need to include the health costs of driving as well as the petrol and tax costs.
For example people in Costa Rica live as long as we do but spend about 1/20 what we do on health care. This seems mainly due to better diet, less drugs and more exercise.

Any cost benefit analysis of motoring cost needs to include the health costs associated with driving.

Sesshoumaru

ei.sdraob wrote: »

some reading for you




Go and see for yourself, I was there few months ago, while there are regional issues the overall economy is doing relatively well, and more importantly people are being employed.





The US is a major partner at ITER along with the rest of the main economies, they also have their own separate efforts.

We on the other hand tax alot, get little infrastructure and public transport in return for our motoring taxes (of all kinds), and waste the rest on inflated wages and dead banks.

God we could really go off on a tangent on this The US is really a minor partner on both the ITER and LHC and while they may have their own energy project, the US has to contend with problems like this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/08/science/08creationism.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss

and



This isn't the thread to go into detail on this, but I sense a real anti science vibe from the US these days.

Oh and I read some of that thread you linked to a few days ago. That and some of your other posts that relate to green issues I've read. So I was already sure before I posted you would largely disagree with me But I'll have a more in depth look at that thread again, I mostly just skimmed it last time. But China and the Chinese I'm reasonably familiar with as I married one and I've been there. The basic premise that we export our pollution to China, I have no disagreement with that.

Although I've just argued for an anti science culture developing in America. Where I do see some hope and progress in that country is in former technology gurus turned space company gurus, examples:

http://www.spacex.com/
http://www.bigelowaerospace.com/

My hoped for solution to problems with mining rare earth metals on Earth would be the opening up of space by private companies. Anyway that's quite a tangent and for another thread I think

ei.sdraob

So because Americans dont believe in evolution they are all thick What does that have to do with anything.

You shouldn't stereotype a whole country in such a manner, its a slippery slope especially from a country which continually elects FF and allowed its clergy to "help themselves" to young generations....

Despite having such low fuel prices they also have a real breeding ground for alternative energy companies and startups (as well as IT as you might be aware) while we talk about Smart & Green economy they are doing it.

Sesshoumaru

ei.sdraob wrote: »

So because Americans dont believe in evolution they are all thick What does that have to do with anything.

You shouldn't stereotype a whole country in such a manner, its a slippery slope especially from a country which continually elects FF and allowed its clergy to "help themselves" to young generations....

Well I gave two examples of private American companies that I admire! So I don't really think I'm saying all Americans are stupid. What I am saying is that teaching creationism to kids in national tax payer funded schools is a really bad idea. In fact it shouldn't be allowed even in private schools. What kind of science grounding do kids get if they're taught the origin of the world and our species can be found in the bible? Kids brought up like that won't be capable of scientific thought processes. I certainly wouldn't want to depend on the youth of today to come up with energy solutions for tomorrow if science class involves reading the bible!

nytimes wrote:

Researchers found that only 28 percent of biology teachers consistently follow the recommendations of the National Research Council to describe straightforwardly the evidence for evolution and explain the ways in which it is a unifying theme in all of biology. At the other extreme, 13 percent explicitly advocate creationism, and spend at least an hour of class time presenting it in a positive light.

That leaves what the authors call “the cautious 60 percent,” who avoid controversy by endorsing neither evolution nor its unscientific alternatives. In various ways, they compromise.

Sesshoumaru

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Despite having such low fuel prices they also have a real breeding ground for alternative energy companies and startups (as well as IT as you might be aware) while we talk about Smart & Green economy they are doing it.

The US is big! I'd wager most of those alternative energy companies reside in California. I wouldn't mind a Tesla Roadster myself I also wasn't completely disparaging the US, I am quite excited about the private space industry they are building and which under the Obama administration their government is supporting. I also wasn't really comparing the US to Ireland directly. In my mind I was comparing the US to Europe as a whole, sorry if I didn't make that clearer! We don't have a whole lot going for our own little country right now.

cavedave

As well as the health costs of motoring there are also the happiness costs. Koslowsky has found a commuting bias where 'A person with a one-hour commute has to earn 40 percent more money just to be as satisfied with life as someone who walks to work' (pdf)

this makes a very compelling case that the best way to improve happiness in Ireland would be to increase the financial cost of motoring and incentivise people living near enough to work to walk there.

Sesshoumaru

cavedave wrote: »

As well as the health costs of motoring there are also the happiness costs. Koslowsky has found a commuting bias where 'A person with a one-hour commute has to earn 40 percent more money just to be as satisfied with life as someone who walks to work' (pdf)

this makes a very compelling case that the best way to improve happiness in Ireland would be to increase the financial cost of motoring and incentivise people living near enough to work to walk there.

How about reducing the cost of motorcycles? What you said really chimed with me as I'm a relatively new convert to motorcycles. For years and years I spent 2 to 3 hours every day stuck in my car or on Dublin Bus. Then I had a revelation and bought myself a motorcycle. Now I've a commute time of about 25 minutes each way and it has dramatically improved my quality of life.

ei.sdraob

cavedave wrote: »

As well as the health costs of motoring there are also the happiness costs. Koslowsky has found a commuting bias where 'A person with a one-hour commute has to earn 40 percent more money just to be as satisfied with life as someone who walks to work' (pdf)

this makes a very compelling case that the best way to improve happiness in Ireland would be to increase the financial cost of motoring and incentivise people living near enough to work to walk there.

"Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" :P

US makes the top 10 happiest countries, we dont

Sesshoumaru

ei.sdraob wrote: »

"Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" :P

US makes the top 10 happiest countries, we dont

When I clicked your second link, under the "see also" section on that page I found this

http://blogs.forbes.com/ciocentral/2011/01/20/danger-america-is-losing-its-edge-in-innovation/?partner=seealsoblog

In fact, scientists and engineers are celebrities in most countries. They’re not seen as geeks or misfits, as they too often are in the U.S., but rather as society’s leaders and innovators. In China, eight of the top nine political posts are held by engineers. In the U.S., almost no engineers or scientists are engaged in high-level politics, and there is a virtual absence of engineers in our public policy debates.

This is pretty much what I was getting at and why I'm not sure the American economy is in such great shape going into the future.

ei.sdraob

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

When I clicked your second link, under the "see also" section on that page I found this

http://blogs.forbes.com/ciocentral/2011/01/20/danger-america-is-losing-its-edge-in-innovation/?partner=seealsoblog



This is pretty much what I was getting at and why I'm not sure the American economy is in such great shape going into the future.

Well the culture in far east is much different to US and Ireland, you could use the very same arguments about the youth here. I can see large generation change in my younger relatives while I read books when i was their young age they play with ipods, laptops, phones etc, whether thats good or bad time will tell.

There was a thread somewhere around these parts about the severe competition and pressure young South Koreans go thru' during their education.

Anyways historically it was the new immigrants who succeeded in US and driven science and technology in their hard work and pursuit of happiness

Sesshoumaru

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Anyways historically it was the new immigrants who succeeded in US and driven science and technology in their hard work and pursuit of happiness

Indeed and here is one of my favourite immigrants to America

Japer

Talking about motoring, cars, and greatest American immigrants, its worth remembering a certain Mr. Ford originated in Co. Cork. If only he / his family had built his empire here instead of from America.

Japer

Japer wrote: »

Talking about motoring, cars, and greatest American immigrants, its worth remembering a certain Mr. Ford originated in Co. Cork. If only he / his family had built his empire here instead of from America.

Here was an Irish-American Protestant who was drawn back to his family roots in Cork and as the tractors were begining to roll off the line at the plant he decided to build in Cork City in 1917, the War of Independence against British rule in Ireland was getting underway. Reprisals against Protestants, resulted in the halving of their population in County Cork, within the subsequent five years.

Henry Ford's contribution to Ireland was immense.

Today, our top private sector industrial employers Intel and Dell, together employ about 9,000 people directly. In 1930, when the population of Cork was approximately 80,000, Ford employed 7,000 there and until the assembly operations were closed in 1984, Henry Ford & Son Ltd. was the star company in Cork.

http://www.finfacts.ie/finfactsblog/2006/08/henry-ford-and-cork-ireland.html

As usual we couldnt compete:

The removal of tariff barriers after Ireland entered the EEC caused major difficulties for the company as it struggled to compete with cheaper cars imported from Europe. Financial losses mounted and the Cork plant was finally closed on Friday 13 July 1984. An era in the industrial history of Cork had ended.

http://www.corkpastandpresent.ie/mapsimages/corkphotographs/corkcameraclubhistoricalphotos/marinaquayandsilos/


We never learned the lesson!!

Back on topic:
Motoring is so expensive here because we tax the hell out of it. Fuel price is mostly tax, motor tax is massive, insurance is overpriced, servicing and repairs are expensive

ei.sdraob

Japer wrote: »

Talking about motoring, cars, and greatest American immigrants, its worth remembering a certain Mr. Ford originated in Co. Cork. If only he / his family had built his empire here instead of from America.

hahaha

Irish are hostile to small business startups now, probably was worse back then

rodento

Have they lost the plot, thought that we as a country needed to reduce the cost of business to make us more compeditive. Now I hear plans to toll all of the motorways in Ireland... And if that weren't bad enough the cost of public transport is also going up

It's getting to the stage were we will no longer be able to afford to work in this country

Cookie_Monster

just back from Italy...

all Motorways tolled (Autostrada)
9 quid for 130km, so not cheap either

1.58-1.60 for petrol

looking at that, kind of makes us look cheap in comparison.

ei.sdraob

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

just back from Italy...

all Motorways tolled (Autostrada)
9 quid for 130km, so not cheap either

1.58-1.60 for petrol

looking at that, kind of makes us look cheap in comparison.

Go to US, I drove better part of 7000km @ ~60 euro cent a litre last month, lets just say your money goes a long way. No tolls, the interstate system is amazing.

And the prices fell rather dramatically over few week period as the world oil price fell, the competition is ferocious, here in comparison if anything the prices went up more, completely divorced from the price of oil the prices are here and lets not forget the cosy cartel agreement here in Galway between petrol stations.

sollar

So driving a regular 1.9 diesel (pre 08) will go above €600 per year in motor tax. Very depressing. If you can't afford that and need a car for work its looking like a petrol motor and the higher overall fuel costs that entails.

The well heeled on the newer motor tax rates will no doubt still be paying peanuts (relative to the pre 08 people).

ei.sdraob

Wait until enough people are driving diesel cars and the price of that is brought up, diesel base price is more than petrol and is in a sense "subsidised" (well not taxed as much) compared to petrol.

Cookie_Monster

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Go to US, I drove better part of 7000km @ ~60 euro cent a litre last month, lets just say your money goes a long way. No tolls, the interstate system is amazing.

And the prices fell rather dramatically over few week period as the world oil price fell, the competition is ferocious, here in comparison if anything the prices went up more, completely divorced from the price of oil the prices are here and lets not forget the cosy cartel agreement here in Galway between petrol stations.

well yes, that kinda makes us look expensive. Italy is more comparable though, being EU IMO.

I did 1,000km in the states earlier this year also. 72c a litre for gas, and a couple of tolls in Chicago but dirt cheap. And gas prices moved daily and reacted very quickly as you said.

ei.sdraob

Dont drive in Portugal, it was 1.55 last summer and main motorway toll is rather expensive, then again all of these little Piggies need some money for their coffers. I hear they are thinking of 8 new tolls here in Ireland, oh goodie goodie that'll do wonders for tourism which they are trying hard to revive.

ei.sdraob

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Go to US, I drove better part of 7000km @ ~60 euro cent a litre last month, lets just say your money goes a long way. No tolls, the interstate system is amazing.

And the prices fell rather dramatically over few week period as the world oil price fell, the competition is ferocious, here in comparison if anything the prices went up more, completely divorced from the price of oil the prices are here and lets not forget the cosy cartel agreement here in Galway between petrol stations.

I was in the US in April, 60cent a litre around Arizona, a little dearer in Los Angeles with it having the biggest number of millionaires in the one city in the world and it still wasnt as expensive as here.

We can go the European way and have 10% unemployment as normal or we can go the US route and try have full employment when we arent in recession.

If fuel is 60 cent a litre all goods are cheaper, commuting costs are cheaper, wages dont need to be so high. Ultimately the problem is we need the tax to fund government spending. Solution is to cut spending.

I`d be 100% for 60cent a litre for petrol & diesel and to hell with the European outlook on economics

At the very very least I would advocate allowing truckers to use green diesel like farmers so that all goods are cheaper in shops....

Liam Byrne

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

just back from Italy...

all Motorways tolled (Autostrada)
9 quid for 130km, so not cheap either

1.58-1.60 for petrol

looking at that, kind of makes us look cheap in comparison.

Does Italy have the illegal VRT and extra VAT on same ?
Does Italy charge €300-odd road tax ?

thebman

Deleted User wrote: »

At the very very least I would advocate allowing truckers to use green diesel like farmers so that all goods are cheaper in shops....

I've never understood why this wasn't the case especially when you look at how little alternative means we have of transporting goods around the country.

Not a strong enough lobby group for truckers me thinks compared to farmers.

Cookie_Monster

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Does Italy have the illegal VRT and extra VAT on same ?

no, but neither do we. VRT is legal, Denmark has it too

Does Italy charge €300-odd road tax ?

dunno, but ours can be from 104 to ~2k depending on engine size / emmsions

they do have a motor tax, dependant on power
http://www.justlanded.com/english/Italy/Articles/Travel-Leisure/Buying-a-car

thebman

yeah our road tax system is thought out completely when cars like this qualify for zero emissions tax:
http://www.lexus.ie/about/press-releases.aspx

:pac: Time to reform the old green thinking me thinks.

Liam Byrne

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

no, but neither do we. VRT is legal, Denmark has it too

VRT was slapped in as a substitute for Excise Duty when that was outlawed by the EU.

It is a completely farcical setup imposed just to get around the spirit of the law AND as I said the addition of VAT on the VRT is a complete con.

Cookie_Monster

Liam Byrne wrote: »

VRT was slapped in as a substitute for Excise Duty when that was outlawed by the EU.

but it's not a tax on import, it's a tax on registration..
There are circumstances where it can be fully avoided also.

It is a completely farcical setup imposed just to get around the spirit of the law AND as I said the addition of VAT on the VRT is a complete con.

same with fuel duty and booze duty, VAT on top. you could argue that's not right, but that's the only thing wrong with VRT, well safety items/ features attracting it is also a bit silly.

cyclopath2001

thebman wrote: »

yeah our road tax system is thought out completely

Apart from the odd toll road/bridge, there is presently no road tax in Ireland.

Liam Byrne

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

but it's not a tax on import, it's a tax on registration.

It's a con, plain and simple. And if the EU does become more integrated it'll be the first real test of whether they do indeed want a proper, integrated Europe with consistent taxes.

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Apart from the odd toll road/bridge, there is presently no road tax in Ireland.

Not this red herring crap again. So it's motor tax.....but I can guarantee you that if we suddenly had a choice re not using cars, it would become a road tax, and if they finally invented hoverboards and hovercraft they'd make it an airborne tax.....just like they're doing with the "TV" licence.

They'll screw us one way or another, while providing no viable alternatives such as public transport.

Cookie_Monster

Liam Byrne wrote: »

.....but I can guarantee you that if we suddenly had a choice re not using cars,

but we do have a choice, I travel on the roads everyday and don't have to pay "road" tax

I cycle

They'll screw us one way or another, while providing no viable alternatives such as public transport.

public transport is provided and it's certainly viable in the cities, though not so much in the middle of nowhere.

ei.sdraob

thebman wrote: »

yeah our road tax system is thought out completely when cars like this qualify for zero emissions tax:
http://www.lexus.ie/about/press-releases.aspx

:pac: Time to reform the old green thinking me thinks.

Whats wrong with that car? Its a hybrid and a damn good looking one too with low emissions

Or do you just have a problem with it because it looks like an SUV and those are "bad"TM :rolleyes:

thebman

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Whats wrong with that car? Its a hybrid and a damn good looking one too with low emissions

Or do you just have a problem with it because it looks like an SUV and those are "bad"TM :rolleyes:

It weighs 2 tonnes... Unless the laws of physics have changed, it is not the green vehicle it claims to be.

ei.sdraob

thebman wrote: »

It weighs 2 tonnes... Unless the laws of physics have changed, it is not the green vehicle it claims to be.

So your problem with the vehicle is its size/shape not its "green" credentials :rolleyes:

Toyota Prius (from the same company mind you) is
104 g/km | 76 bhp | 65mpg | 1300 kg

compared to this

140 g/km | 294 bhp | 47.1 mpg | 2115 kg

Like I said not bad at all, instead of praising Toyota for squeezing so much power and luxury into a 47mpg car with the emissions not far from a Prius which is held by "greenies" worldwide as the car of the future (god help us)

To put things into comparison a new Golf GTI of which there are many on the roads
170 g/km | 207 bhp | 38 mpg | 1300-1600kg

A new Polo 1.2 S 5d
128 g/km | 59 bhp | 51 mpg | 1067 kg

The Lexus above has more power than a GTI, same mileage as a Polo, emissions of a small coffin car, and more features and luxury than all of the others have combined. You should be happy that Toyota and other companies are responding to a changing environment and making cars more "eco friendly"


It seems your problem is people buying luxury cars, a clear and shut case of Irish begrudgery.

Head The Wall

In the case of the Lexus the user should get a rebate at the end of the year instead of a reduction in vrt. The amount of the rebate should vary depending on the usage breakdown of the petrol engine (4.4ltr V8) versus the fuel cell.

murphaph

Head The Wall wrote: »

In the case of the Lexus the user should get a rebate at the end of the year instead of a reduction in vrt. The amount of the rebate should vary depending on the usage breakdown of the petrol engine (4.4ltr V8) versus the fuel cell.

This would likely be very awkward to administer and automotive microcontrollers can be manipulated. It would be worth your while getting the ratio altered by someone who does speedo "calibrations".

ei.sdraob

Head The Wall wrote: »

In the case of the Lexus the user should get a rebate at the end of the year instead of a reduction in vrt. The amount of the rebate should vary depending on the usage breakdown of the petrol engine (4.4ltr V8) versus the fuel cell.

In a country that takes 20 years to introduce postcodes?