ncps clamp removed

gamboyz

i cut a clamp. now the garda is knoking on my door asking me to pay 270 and they will forget everything or they file a criminal case.
do i need to pay or proceed with the case?

i parked along side the road (private property)

ted1

ignore them. The clampers will not proced further for fear of losing in court and putting them selves out of business. I'm surprised the guards are actually getting involved it's not their jurisdiction.

corktina

was it a private clamper though? Maybe it was an offical one (possibly put on in error by someone not knowing the car was on private property)

I doubt its good advice to ignore the gards.

wildefalcon

Hang on a minute?

Someone gave you an unsolicited gift?

They attached a piece of equipment to your car, interfered with a safety critical piece of equipment without your permission, and they have the cheek to get the Police to demand money off you?

Bring it ON!

Can they prove that you did it?

NWPat

corktina wrote: »

was it a private clamper though? Maybe it was an offical one (possibly put on in error by someone not knowing the car was on private property)

I doubt its good advice to ignore the gards.

If this was the case you could sue them. Ignore the demand. They will almost certainly not go to court, not cost effective.

Tragedy

Ehh, I don't think Guards can act as (unsubstantiated and unproven)fine collectors for a private company can they? If a guard knocked on my door asking me to pay a third party so that the third party will forget everything, I'd be asking for their badge number and filing a complaint with their sergeant and the Garda Ombudsman.

Veloce

Talk to a solicitor.

mcauley

OP said it was an NCPS clamp, very surprised to hear about a member of the Gardai getting involved with this. . .where are they getting a figure of €270 from exactly?

phill106

I dont think putting down that someone may or may not have cut a clamp, whether the clamp was illegally put on or not. Could be considered an admission of guilt.

squod

Get his badge number and report him.

Paulw

Very bad idea to ignore the Gardai.

Consult a solicitor.

Criminal damage is something that the Gardai do investigate.

report the guard, maybe he's getting a few bob out of it

giant_midget

get your phone out and video record the Garda next time he calls to your house. Ask him to confirm that he needs money "to make this go away" bloody jobsworths....

gamboyz

thanks for the response.

as i walk out of the house the clamper is putting a sticker on my window (clamp already in place)
i told him to remove it or i'll remove it.. he said "you can try"

a neighbor lend me his grinder and i remove it. as i finish the job, the guy who clamp me pass by and stop beside my car.

after few hours a guard knocking on my door asking to pay the said amount. i was out whole day. they just leave the message.

brianrcarney

so you didn't see the copper?

MarkR

May help.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/traffic_and_parking/parking_fines_and_vehicle_clamping.html

See if they are authorised to clamp in your area.

Atlantic Dawn

MarkR wrote: »

May help.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/traffic_and_parking/parking_fines_and_vehicle_clamping.html

See if they are authorised to clamp in your area.

Private clamping is not covered by legistion.

gamboyz

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Private clamping is not covered by legistion.

if private clamping is not covered by legislation why the guards asking me to pay..

subway

criminal damage is covered, the clamper witnessed you causing the damage.
get a solicitor.

did you cut the chain, the lock or the clamp?
270 sounds high for a lock (which is what everyone will tell you to cut of you cant repair the chain) as its the cheapest to replace

markpb

subway wrote: »

criminal damage is covered, the clamper witnessed you causing the damage. get a solicitor.

This is why.

The guy cut a clamp off on a private road. The law which protects cars from tampering in a public place does not apply on private property. Proving that he cut it off would normally be difficult in court which is why they rarely go that far but he was witnessed doing it.

Road Traffic Act, 1961

A person shall not, without lawful authority or reasonable cause, interfere or attempt to interfere with the mechanism of a mechanically propelled vehicle while it is stationary in a public place, or get on or into or attempt to get on or into the vehicle while it is so stationary.

Criminal Damage Act, 1991

A person who without lawful excuse damages any property belonging to another intending to damage any such property or being reckless as to whether any such property would be damaged shall be guilty of an offence.

Unlike civil cases, the Gardai are obliged to get involved in criminal cases so there's nothing unusual about this.

squod

Did you say outside your house? Did the guard see any of this or is this some third party story told to him by an illegal clamper? I'd get the guards number first of all.

All of this sounds totally unreasonable, the guard just seems to be bent. The illegal clamper is obviously not going anywhere near a courtroom. If either of them call again, report them.

markpb wrote: »

This is why.

The guy cut a clamp off on a private road. The law which protects cars from tampering in a public place does not apply on private property. Proving that he cut it off would normally be difficult in court which is why they rarely go that far but he was witnessed doing it.

If it's a private road how was the OP able to access his house with his car? If he's living there a nd the public have access to it then it's likely a public place.

2. Road Traffic Act, 1933 167.—(1) Every person who, without the consent of the owner or the person in charge of a mechanically propelled vehicle and without other lawful authority or reasonable cause interferes or attempts to interfere in any way with the mechanism of such vehicle while it is stationary in a public place or gets on or into or attempts to get on or into such vehicle while it is so stationary shall be guilty of an offence under this section and shall be liable on summary conviction thereof to a fine not exceeding twenty pounds.

3. Under Section 9 of the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act 1994 anyone without legal authority or reasonable excuse, wilfully prevents or interrupts the free passage of any person or vehicle in any public place shall be guilty of an offence

gamboyz

it's an apartment. it so happen that my unit is on the ground floor that's why i parked outside the unit.

markpb

squod wrote: »

If it's a private road how was the OP able to access his house with his car? If he's living there a nd the public have access to it then it's likely a public place.

“public place” means any street, road or other place to which the public have access with vehicles whether as of right or by permission and whether subject to or free of charge;

If he lives there, he has access by right or permission but the public may not.

seamus

If you cut the clamp itself that's criminal damage and the clampers are entitled to be reimbursed for the cost of the clamp. Whether they were entitled to attach the clamp or not is irrelevant.

It's likely that the company have filed a complaint with the Gardai but have offered to drop the charges if you pay for the cost of the clamp; €270.

Very foolish thing to do. Consult a solicitor, but if you go to court you could end up with a criminal record and far bigger costs to pay.

Max_Damage

OP: You are a hero if you cut the clamp! :cool:

slimjimmc

OP was caught red-handed causing intentional criminal damage (having first threatened to do so) . He needs to deal with this now if he want to avoid going to court. I assume most clampers have a camera so there's probably photographic evidence of the OP getting his hands dirty.

listermint

next time, dont tell them you are going to remove it.

Be civil, tell them youve to go get cash or whatever.

Once he leaves...


If the clamp is not there when he comes back so be it. Youve no idea what happened :cool:

jhegarty

slimjimmc wrote: »

OP was caught red-handed causing intentional criminal damage (having first threatened to do so) . He needs to deal with this now if he want to avoid going to court. I assume most clampers have a camera so there's probably photographic evidence of the OP getting his hands dirty.

Has there ever been a successful prosecution of someone for damaging a non-council clamp ?

no1beemerfan

gamboyz wrote: »

i cut a clamp......

For some reason this has made my day!

Swampy

gamboyz wrote: »

i cut a clamp. now the garda is knoking on my door asking me to pay 270 and they will forget everything or they file a criminal case.
do i need to pay or proceed with the case?

i parked along side the road (private property)

You sir are a legend. Made my day. I hate private clamping. It's just a big scam with the developers and management companies.

Bigcheeze

slimjimmc wrote: »

OP was caught red-handed causing intentional criminal damage (having first threatened to do so) .

Threatened ? or did he give the clamper fair warning that he was requesting the clamp to be removed? The clamper declined the invitation to remove the clamp and in fact invited the OP to try and remove the clamp.

Jumpy

markpb wrote: »

This is why.

The guy cut a clamp off on a private road. The law which protects cars from tampering in a public place does not apply on private property. Proving that he cut it off would normally be difficult in court which is why they rarely go that far but he was witnessed doing it.

Road Traffic Act, 1961


Criminal Damage Act, 1991


Unlike civil cases, the Gardai are obliged to get involved in criminal cases so there's nothing unusual about this.

Why are you quoting the 1961 act? It has changed many times since then.

Ghost Estate

Well done OP. Fair play for giving those scumbags at NCPS some of their own medicine

if they didn't want their clamp damaged they shouldn't have attached it to your car.

Vikings

Tragedy wrote: »

Ehh, I don't think Guards can act as (unsubstantiated and unproven)fine collectors for a private company can they? If a guard knocked on my door asking me to pay a third party so that the third party will forget everything, I'd be asking for their badge number and filing a complaint with their sergeant and the Garda Ombudsman.

Great advice there. While you are busy complaining to the Garda Ombudsman about a guard who is giving you an opportunity to rectify a situation you got yourself into, the summons for causing criminal damage will probably be served on you, possibly followed by a conviction and fine. And what will the Garda Ombudsman do then? Reprimand a garda for doing his job? Like I said, great advice.

Consult a solicitor is the only good advice received so far. What people here are doing is trying to justify the criminal damage due to the possible wrongful clamping of your car. Though you try explain that to a judge and see how far you get.

If this is in an apartment block the clampers are probably permitted to clamp there by the management company, contact them and see what they have to say. Regardless though, nothing - no questions there, nothing - gives you permission to damage property that does not belong to you.

As frustrating as clampers are, their usual appeals process is to pay the release fee and then appeal to get it refunded with the usual pictures, letters etc. Don't cut the thing off and hope for the best, that will only end in disaster - clampers take pictures, car details etc. etc. during the clamping, do you not think it will be reported at all?

langdang

Not going into the wrongs and rights of clamping, but you were caught for criminal damage. If you make reparations to the "injured party" through the Garda, then there's no major fall out. I'm pretty sure the Garda will give you a receipt or something, this isn't Russia or Mexico. Worth it not to have criminal damage on your record isn't it?

Edit - beaten to by Viking...

seamus

Jumpy wrote: »

Why are you quoting the 1961 act? It has changed many times since then.

The 1961 Act is known as the "Principle Act". Later road traffic acts have amended this document, but not repealed it (to the best of my knowledge). In law circles, when referring to the document in general you either mention the "Road Traffic Act 1961" or "Road Traffic Acts 1961 - 2010".

Jumpy

DId they not remove the word "Public" in one of the later acts?

Bigcheeze

Vikings wrote: »

Regardless though, nothing - no questions there, nothing - gives you permission to damage property that does not belong to you.

Agree with you on the role of the Guard.

However, I don't agree with the statement in bold. In the situation where his car is interfered with and immobilised without any basis in law, I believe the OP has taken the necessary minimum action and inflicted the minimum damage to rectify the situation and release his vehicle. He requested the clamp to be removed, this was denied and instead is expected to submit to extortion??

What if the clampers set the fine at €1,000.....are you saying that they can do whatever the hell they like and the general public has to suck it up!


Is there any Irish case law at all to refer to ?

seamus

Jumpy wrote: »

DId they not remove the word "Public" in one of the later acts?

Correct! In the 1984 Act. The amount of the fine has also been increased to €2,000.

However, I don't agree with the statement in bold. In the situation where his car is interfered with and immobilised without any basis in law, I believe the OP has taken the necessary minimum action and inflicted the minimum damage to rectify the situation and release his vehicle. He requested the clamp to be removed, this was denied and instead is expected to submit to extortion??

No. If he believes that his car has been unlawfully interfered with, the minimum action he can take (and must take) is to ring the Gardai to report the breach of the Road Traffic Act and let them contact the clamper to remove the clamp.

langdang

Bigcheeze wrote: »

What if the clampers set the fine at €1,000.....are you saying that they can do whatever the hell they like and the general public has to suck it up!

Now, I'm only trying to apply common sense to the Irish legislative system (so I could be waaaay off) but this 270euro is presumably the "cost" of the clamp, and not a fine? Any parking fine or anything is a separate matter, we're talking compensation for criminal damage here?

Bigcheeze

seamus wrote: »

ring the Gardai to report the breach of the Road Traffic Act and let them contact the clamper to remove the clamp.

And if the clamper refuses ?

NWPat

If the guard thought there was any chance of conviction for criminal damage he would have arrested you. He didn't because unless you admit an offence in a signed statement and another witness can be found to testify in court then there is no chance of you being charged with anything. The clampers could take a civil case against you but I would doubt it would be worth the time, effort and cost.

Bigcheeze

langdang wrote: »

Now, I'm only trying to apply common sense to the Irish legislative system (so I could be waaaay off) but this 270euro is presumably the "cost" of the clamp, and not a fine? Any parking fine or anything is a separate matter, we're talking compensation for criminal damage here?

For a start the OP didn't destory the clamp, presumably he broke one link on the chain or the lock so €270 is off the wall.

When I say €1,000 I mean, what if some less reputable clamper sets the normal release fee at €1,000. What do we do then ? Roll over and have our bellies tickled ? Go through their "appeals process" ?

seamus

Bigcheeze wrote: »

And if the clamper refuses ?

The Garda can arrest him under that section. Do you really think that a clamper will refuse to remove a clamp if a Garda tells him to?

I know people who've simply quoted that section to clampers and they remove the clamp and feck off.

For a start the OP didn't destory the clamp, presumably he broke one link on the chain or the lock so €270 is off the wall.

He says he "cut the clamp", so presumably he did destroy the clamp. Some of them don't have chain or padlocks.

Cavehill Red

They just banned this form of extortion in Britain.
In France, when they tried to introduce it in one town, the clamper vans were followed by people who glued their locks when they were incapacitating cars.
In Ireland, as always, the sheep bleat, take their punishment and pay up.
Until more people defend their right not to be harrassed by these vermin, they will continue to extort money from us all.
Congratulations, OP. I'd love to buy you a pint.

Bigcheeze

seamus wrote: »

The Garda can arrest him under that section. Do you really think that a clamper will refuse to remove a clamp if a Garda tells him to?

I know people who've simply quoted that section to clampers and they remove the clamp and feck off.

Interesting, so if these clamping companies are repeatedly breaching the RTA....in fact their entire business model seems to be to breach the RTA, why are the companies or individual clampers not prosecuted ?

Paparazzo

Buy a new clamp. Wait till the van comes back, and sneak up and put it on his van. Tell him its 500 euro to remove it.

On a side note, do clampers need planning permission to put up their warning signs?

gamboyz

i just cut the chain.
if i pay the 270 can i keep the clamp as a souvenir?
anyone knows how long it will take before a judge rule over this case?
i haven't been to prison, but, if they serve free meal, free accomodation i think it's worth to fight.

squod

No way these clown are going to court. Their practice is illegal and in this case (it seems) completely unreasonable. I'd be onto the management company as well about this.

seamus

Bigcheeze wrote: »

Interesting, so if these clamping companies are repeatedly breaching the RTA....in fact their entire business model seems to be to breach the RTA, why are the companies or individual clampers not prosecuted ?

Why don't you ask the Gardai?

I imagine the reason there's never been a prosecution is because people are either too impatient/ignorant to do anything but pay up or because the Gardai don't bother pursuing the complaint if the clampers remove the clamp for free.