Rat Control For Bird Feeders .....

Ditch

Here, I intend to advise ye on an excellent way to put bait out for rats, whilst continuing to put food out for the birds.

Sadly, the stock in trade response to bird feeding induced rat infestations, from my fellow professionals is now a shrug and the advice to; " Stop putting out stuff for the birds then! ".

I'd suggest the " P3 ", as I'm about to show ye here.

The following is a direct scan of a few pages from " Control of Rats And Mice ~ Vol 1. Rats " By Chitty & Southern. This book was published by the Clarendon Press of Oxford. 1954.

I want to get the basic information down here. Then I'll be happy to field any further questions. Please note, before we even start:

The given blue print of the P3 was a (UK) governmental design aimed at mass production and deployment. Hence the prefabricated / Flat Pack design illustrated.

Most of us, today, could get away with just a one or two P3's in the area we feed the birds. And so they can be built much like nest boxes; Nailed together and ~ in this case ~ with a marked and padlockable lid.

No need for all that rebating and slotting. Just knock up the box!

Ditch

E39MSport

:eek:

Half-cocked

I just shove a rat trap under the deck where the birds won't go. Quick, clean and humane.

Feargal as Luimneach

Having seen plenty of dogs and one sparrowhawk die from warfarin poisoning, I wouldn't personally use poison, it's not a pleasant way to die. I have loads of feeders and thus spilt grain. I do have the odd rats. If they do that up residence around the garden the terrier usually digs them out. I had a couple under the garden shed, which the dog couldn't get at.
I got two humane rat traps. Place them alomg the edges of the garden and had them under plenty of cover, so as not to catch any birds. I used peanut butter as bait. Caught 3 and got the dog to swiftly kill them.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Nuts and sledgehammers come to mind, Ditch.

Traps and properly covered baits can be sufficient. Very few birds will be affected if poisons are laid properly. Traps are best, as they ensure poisoned carcasses are not left for other wiildlife to feed on. Never have I caught anything other than a Rat in a Rat Trap. Live tapping is fine provided you kill the Rat and not have that nonsense of releasing them elsewhere.

Prevention is the simplest solution however. Don't feed scraps. Put a tray (Bin lid etc) uner seed feeders to catch the dropped seeds. Don't overfeed the birds. Leave just enough each day for a few hours of feeding activity.

If Rats are a problem then the old advice of stopping feeding is still sound. We can all have an occasional rat about the place but an infestation must be dealt with and that includes removing the bird feeding stations.

E39MSport

I'm pretty sure that nothing other than the intended target has gone near the poison but of course I cannot be sure. The bait is about 20 feet away from the feeders and I've sepnt quite a bit of time watching.

Either way, given the comments on here (thanks all) I think I'll lift it now as the bait is not being taken any more and I haven't seen a rat in weeks.

No doubt they'll show again but I'll deal with that when the time comes. Time to get my chippy hat on perhaps

Mothman

Bailee Worried Underwear wrote: »

poisoned carcasses are not left for other wiildlife to feed on.

This I feel is as much an issue as the poison itself. The poison stays within the food chain

It wasn't me!

Poison is a cruel death, and an environmental disaster. Either live trap and dispatch yourself (And have a good plan in place to do so before you ever set a trap) or use a trap which humanely dispatches the rats upon capture. Note: Drowning is not a suitable option either.

Ditch

More resistance that rats have to Warfarin! Put some bait in a bird proof box? Hell, no! I'm gonna set this trap till I get me a Robin! :rolleyes:

For those of ye who were around in the fifties, ye'll remember the House Sparrow was like flies? Swarms of the things. Twice, in six years, did they know of one entering a P3.

That track record suits me. Because, as a professional, I've used enough of the modern, 'proper' boxes, of many and various designs. And birds can and do enter them.

Some of these boxes are designed to that they may 'secure' either bait or a trap. The birds I have personally seen killed in rat and mouse traps ~ including the most ingeniously hidden and well covered ~ reads like some peoples Year List. A lot more than " Very few ", and a few are too many when ye removing a Wren or Robin's crushed body from a trap

Due to the gradual effects of modern rodenticide baits, very few dead rats are actually found above ground. Any that are are picked up along with the Dog mess swept for several times a day.

Incidentally; We're not talking strychnine here. EEC Directive blah, blah, god knows what has commanded that Millions be spent on rigorous testing to ensure modern baits don't even remain in the soil of the earth.

Half a century of hands on experience has shown me how I've never yet had a bird die of eating my rat bait. Birds die in rat traps placed outside.

Ask anyone who's killed in an accident if it's ever happened to them before, or if they expected it could happen to them. Because it may not have happened to you just yet doesn't mean it can't happen.

"IWM"; What is your plan for dispatching a rat caught in a live trap, please? And could ye please explain the " Environmental disaster " wrought by modern rodenticides? Thankyou

Half-cocked

Ditch wrote: »

"IWM"; What is your plan for dispatching a rat caught in a live trap, please?

IMO, if you're out in the countryside, .22 dust shot at close range if you have a rifle license. Shotgun tends to render the trap unuseable;)

Hey Ditch, for those of us who don't like poison, could a trap be put in the P3 instead? I've never had a bird killed in rat trap but thats not to say it can't happen.

I killed a pygmy shrew in a mouse trap once:(

Ditch

Half-cocked wrote: »

I killed a pygmy shrew in a mouse trap once:(

Oh pul eeease!!! I Hate catching Wood Mice (Apodemus). But, when I turn up a shrew? I could cry! And I catch the poor little things inside my own cottage!

Trap inside a P3 ? Entirely plausible. Only, a 'Snapper' would need some kind of covering, so that the rat would have to approach it from the front. Ye with me? Otherwise he might drop down onto it and all sorts of horrors could ensue.

Bit of chicken wire, or what ever, fitted over the corner where the trap's set though? That should sort out the free fall idea.

Nice thinking!

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

[QUOTE=Ditch;70592086 I'm gonna set this trap till I get me a Robin! :rolleyes:

For those of ye who were around in the fifties, ye'll remember the House Sparrow was like flies? Swarms of the things. Twice, in six years, did they know of one entering a P3.
[/QUOTE]


Ditch, I'm sorry but I feel you are being alarmist here. I too am a professional (as you keep telling us you are). In the early 70's I had a run of 2 birds (both Robins) caught in mousetraps (neither at my property) and nothing since. I have dealt with mouse and rat traps for decades without the losses of birds you suggest. I was around for the 50s but I find your attempt to link the loss of House Sparrows since then to traps or rat bait quite disingenuous and misleading.

Also,

I Hate catching Wood Mice (Apodemus sylvaticus{my addition and italics}). But, when I turn up a shrew? I could cry! And I catch the poor little things inside my own cottage

Maybe you need to take more care setting those traps.

Secondary poisoning is a major problem irrespective of how bait is laid or presented. No method of laying bait is acceptable to anybody who cares for wildlife.

ppink

we use humane traps to catch rats and we are in the country but have no rifle! so what is the best fastest most humane way to dispatch the rat then???
I wont use poison as I have dogs and I am not happy with poison anyway if there is another option.

Ditch

Srameen; Ye appear to have somewhat misread me here.

Trying to link the decline of the House Sparrow to anything??? Eh?! Surely ye can see, as a fellow pro', that two sparrows getting into a P3 in six years is a pretty 'good' level of Non Target Species? That's what I was talking about.

Compare that to the typical state of affairs when a Gamekeeper is baiting in pipes around his pheasant feeders .....

All but few amateurs too will use a bit of pipe or a leaned tile to cover bait. And that, as we know, is a tragedy.


The traps I've taken internal shrews in are the 'Snapee' boxes supplied by Kilgerm. Thank god ye know enough to teach me how to set them for mice without catching shrews. I await ye truly valued words. Thankyou

I find ye final statement confusing: Are ye saying you're a professional rodent controller who doesn't use baits? Or that ye don't care about wildlife

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Ditch, At this stage I really don't know what you are trying to say. Where you trying to say that there were so many Sparrows that they got caught in lots of non-P3 traps? If so balderdash! Never came across a House Sparrow in a trap in my life.

I'm not a pest controller, I'm involved in Wildlife,

Now. Tubes, leaned tiles etc, work quite well if properly executed. You are being alarmist and that is without doubt. The number of birds caught in traps that are properly positioned is tiny. Rats probably eat more birds eggs each year than ever any traps will take.

Ok, you wanted to show your design. Done deal. Let us judge for ourselves, but we are equally entitled not only to our opinions but also to correct any misleading information.

Ditch

You alright there, mate ....?

It's not my design. As I pointed out, quite clearly, at the very start.

Now I'm an 'Alarmist' talking 'Balderdash'. Nice. Thanks for that.

However, I'm still a rat catcher. It's 'what I do'. I'm not a Baker who catches rats on the side. Gamekeepers " work with wildlife " too. But, I've seen them doing the most appalling things with baits and traps.

That said; I wouldn't much fancy my own chances of rearing hundreds of pheasants. Because I have no understanding of pheasant rearing. It's not my trade. I'm not a Gamekeeper. See?

What ye seem to be saying here is that you're right ~ because ye haven't seen what I have. And I'm wrong ~ because You haven't seen what I've seen. That about wrap it up?

Sound basis for a sensible and ongoing discussion, ye reckon?

Now; How do I not catch those shrews, please?

Half-cocked

ppink wrote: »

we use humane traps to catch rats and we are in the country but have no rifle! so what is the best fastest most humane way to dispatch the rat then???
I wont use poison as I have dogs and I am not happy with poison anyway if there is another option.

This subject came up on the shooting forum a while back. One suggestion was to place the trap in a plastic sack and run the car exhaust into it for a few minutes. Now, I'm not too sure how humane that particular method is, but I do know that asphyxia with a gas like argon, nitrogen or CO2 is painless. Drowning is not humane. If you can get it, you can pop the trap into a sealed container with a big lump of cotton wool soaked in choroform.

This is all starting to sound very gruesome.

ppink

yes it is sounding a bit gruesome. last time we had a visitor we let the dogs out and he got the chase of his life. I have not seen one since but brazen is an understatement! At one stage one had hopped up onto our windowcill in the middle of the day:eek: and was munching away on peanuts left there.
he did not last long!

Ditch

Half-cocked wrote: »

This is all starting to sound very gruesome.

Not half a gruesome as some trial reports I once read

It was from USA and ~ don't quote me on this but ~ I think it was CM they were using? Could've been CO2? Anyway, they were trying it out to kill captive mink.

Frankly? I don't even want to repeat the 'results' on this family forum. I should think just about anyone would find them too distressing.

I guess the moral I'm getting at here is like, " Don't experiment with living creatures. "

Ditch

Here ye go ..... 'Family Friendly' picture to illustrate my point: No one told them it was only for rats .....

And, yes; That cage had been fully covered when they entered what amounted to a small, dark hole. Thankfully, it was only a door that snapped down on them

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Some idiot may have thought so but that is not a bait box, a humane trap, nor a snaptrap enclosure.

My point is that the P3 is just like any widely available bait box and the frequency of the problems you relate as endemic are actually minute.

Mothman

This thread has been locked for review which will involve some of the parties involved

Mothman

Thread reopened
So far the thread has focussed on a bait box and issues with birds becoming victims in unsuitable designs or placements.

Secondary poisoning has been an issue mentioned. This is where the poisoned rat etc is consumed by bird, cat etc, the poison stays in the foodchain.

So if one is not to use poison, and considering how wary some rats can be, and one does not have a .22, rat killing dog dog or use gas how does one go about contolling rats DIY?

For the record, I do use poison and I'm personally interested in what I consider a viable method that does not use poison.

or use a trap which humanely dispatches the rats upon capture.

This was mentioned earlier in thread. Can I see an example of this?

Mothman

Copied in from PM exchange

Ditch wrote:

Mothman wrote:

or use a trap which humanely dispatches the rats upon capture.
This was mentioned earlier in thread. Can I see an example of this? "

Not clear what ye looking for here, mate. Ye want shots of rat traps which kill? Or ye want rats in them?

I can do ye either. I can show ye all sorts of things. Just a bit perplexed at the point of any of it in this context.

Let me know.

This is not specifically aimed at you, but those who advocate that we should not use poison.

Ditch wrote:

Ye want shots of rat traps which kill? Or ye want rats in them?

Both, but the latter only if a humane way of killing can be advised. The vast bulk of people currently using poison for rat control don't have gun, suitable dog or a viable means of gassing. What other options are there for dispatching a live rat in a "humane" trap.

johngalway

Rat traps which kill would include (among others):

Snap traps, fenn traps, kania traps, bodygrip traps, DOC traps, among others I forget (dabbler, not an expert by any means). The latter four would be placed into tunnels to prevent entry or injury to non target species.

Snap Trap
Fenn Trap Mk4
Kania Trap - DEAD GREY SQUIRREL IN PHOTO
Bodygrip Trap
DOC Trap

Ditch

Mothman wrote: »

What other options are there for dispatching a live rat in a "humane" trap.

Mothman; Whilst, as ye know, I'm far from satisfied with Several 'Unanswered Questions' in this thread ..... I'm also not content to watch it stick and die.

Thus I'm coming back to ye question there. Just so long as no one gets the idea I've forgotten other questions I'd like answered.

Why would one need to dispatch a rat taken in a humane trap? If the trap meets the major criteria for being " Humane ", the bugger should be stone cold dead when ye find him.

Please let's not 'confuse' a 'Humane' rat trap with some 'Rat Huggers' Disneyesque vision of " Catch the poor ratty in a 'Humane Trap' ~ they sell them on e Bay ~ and then take him Far Away from ye home and set him free in the woods! " (Excuse me; I'm gonna throw up!)

A Humane trap is one which Kills, as near to " Instantly " as we can reasonably arrange.

Aha! Now JohnGalway has stepped in. Yeppers; Those are typical of traps I'd agree are said to be Humane for rat. There are others. But, John's example is fine to make the point:

The most " Humane " rat traps Kill.

Anyone care to split That 'position' from the issue of baits ~ with special reference to birds?

Let's not let the sheer volume of 'information' here smother the Truths

Mothman

johngalway wrote: »

Rat traps which kill would include (among others):

Snap traps, fenn traps, kania traps, bodygrip traps, DOC traps, among others I forget (dabbler, not an expert by any means). The latter four would be placed into tunnels to prevent entry or injury to non target species.

Thanks John. I haven't had chance to look any up. Ditch, got pics of some of these? I assume that all or some of these suffer from rat shyness, so what needs to be done to get the rats in and will there be some rats one practically never get? So many questions...

Ditch wrote: »

Why would one need to dispatch a rat taken in a humane trap? If the trap meets the major criteria for being " Humane ", the bugger should be stone cold dead when ye find him.

Sorry my lord, guilty of ignorance of terms. I suppose I meant live trap, but then the critters still need to be dealt with, and as you've said, release is not an option.

A Humane trap is one which Kills, as near to " Instantly " as we can reasonably arrange.

Aha! Now JohnGalway has stepped in. Yeppers; Those are typical of traps I'd agree are said to be Humane for rat. There are others. But, John's example is fine to make the point:

The most " Humane " rat traps Kill.

Point made!

littlebug

Thankfully I haven’t had a rat problem (that I know of). I have to say that if I thought that feeding birds in my garden was attracting rats then I would first of all stop feeding the birds. My preference after that would be traps that kill as I really wouldn’t want to have to “deal with” live rats. Poison would be a no no. As well as my concerns about poison entering the foodchain, having rats in the space that my children play in would be bad enough without having poison there too..... locked box or not! That said I’m aware that the situation is more complicated in farming situations or where there is poultry/ grains involved and thus would require a stronger handed approach.
For someone in a situation like mine who might not have an infestation but has an inkling that there is something under the shed which of the above trap types mentioned are the best/ fastest non poison options and as MM asks how would you lure the rats in there?

ppink

We used those jaws rat traps when I was young and it was fine until the cat got caught in it. It put me off using them as an adult.
anyway the cat was still very much alive (I released him) so my question is are these supposed to dispatch the rat immediately and if they dont is that not as bad as drowning the rat?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Let's not forget the prevention has to play a part here. Are we putting out too much food for birds? Or the wrong food? Do you put a tray under seed feeders to catch spills and prevent Rats?

Why are there Rats in the garden?

If it takes a halt in bird feeing to reduce the problem then we must consider that option.

As for dispatching Rats. I never had a problem catching Rats with a snap trap and no colateral damage either.