FG extend tax relief to Rich & Plan to Cut Social welfare again

moceri

I see Fine Gael have taken a severe Lurch to the Right by doing a U-Turn on their published proposals in their 4 Year plan (2010) for reliefs for High Earners to be rolled back to 41 % on their Pension contributions.

The 2011 Budget had already outlined plans to gradually reduce the relief to High Earners which disproportionately benefited the better off:

# The annual earnings cap for pension relief will fall from €150,000 to €115,000. The €115,000 earnings cap will also apply to contributions made in 2011 in respect of the 2010 tax year
# Tax relief will be reduced to 34% in 2012, 27% in 2013 and 20% in 2014

Fine Gael is planning to abolish this change and maintain it at 41% for High earners.

In contrast it is planning to slash Social Welfare payments to those physicially capable of work, regardless of wheter employment opportunities exist or not.

Talk about kicking a man when he is down.


Jobs need to be created first. Pensions can be kicked down the road.

Ghost Estate

But they dont plan to introduce property tax..

UDAWINNER

not surprised at this, they always look after the wealthy, the same people that go to their golf fundraisers

UDAWINNER

Ghost Estate wrote: »

But they dont plan to introduce property tax..

the less well off will be given a waiver on this so this would have no impact.

Cookie_Monster

Sounds sensible to me, need to encourage people to invest in pensions

And 41% affects anyone over ~33k, not just "high earners"

As for welfare rates, nearly every aspect of welfare in this country is still at crazily high levels and needs to come down. Taxes and min wage rate has already been changed much more than welfare levels were touched and rent allowance still create a high artificial floor to rents costing us all hundreds a year.

Chucky the tree

One of the reasons I'll probably be voting for them. for a country is huge financial crisis having it nearly as affordable to stay on the dole(including other benefits) then work for minimum wage is crazy.

yosser hughes

One of the reasons I will be voting FG too. Makes sense.

thebman

moceri wrote: »

I see Fine Gael have taken a severe Lurch to the Right by doing a U-Turn on their published proposals in their 4 Year plan (2010) for reliefs for High Earners to be rolled back to 41 % on their Pension contributions.

The 2011 Budget had already outlined plans to gradually reduce the relief to High Earners which disproportionately benefited the better off:

# The annual earnings cap for pension relief will fall from €150,000 to €115,000. The €115,000 earnings cap will also apply to contributions made in 2011 in respect of the 2010 tax year
# Tax relief will be reduced to 34% in 2012, 27% in 2013 and 20% in 2014

Fine Gael is planning to abolish this change and maintain it at 41% for High earners.

In contrast it is planning to slash Social Welfare payments to those physicially capable of work, regardless of wheter employment opportunities exist or not.

Talk about kicking a man when he is down.


Jobs need to be created first. Pensions can be kicked down the road.

Social Welfare coming down, the state subsides or pays almost entirely approx by last figures I saw posted here 50% of rents in the country.

Laughably unsustainable there so no surprise welfare is coming down. Any party saying they won't reduce welfare is playing a practical joke on the people voting for them IMO.

PauloMN

OP, can you define "rich" for me in your post? Just curious.

Lawrence1895

moceri wrote: »

I see Fine Gael have taken a severe Lurch to the Right by doing a U-Turn on their published proposals in their 4 Year plan (2010) for reliefs for High Earners to be rolled back to 41 % on their Pension contributions.

The 2011 Budget had already outlined plans to gradually reduce the relief to High Earners which disproportionately benefited the better off:

# The annual earnings cap for pension relief will fall from €150,000 to €115,000. The €115,000 earnings cap will also apply to contributions made in 2011 in respect of the 2010 tax year
# Tax relief will be reduced to 34% in 2012, 27% in 2013 and 20% in 2014

Fine Gael is planning to abolish this change and maintain it at 41% for High earners.

In contrast it is planning to slash Social Welfare payments to those physicially capable of work, regardless of wheter employment opportunities exist or not.

Talk about kicking a man when he is down.


Jobs need to be created first. Pensions can be kicked down the road.

Slashing SW payments for those capable to work is a copy of what was introduced in Germany a few years ago...no surprise to me, Enda Kenny was hugging Angela Merkel already :eek:

And the people in German didn't read the small print either...now people have to travel 90 minutes to work and have to take a job by all means, otherwise they loose their SW. But they had to vote for the conservative Christian Democrats, helping Mrs Merkel into power :mad:

Exceptions? Only those who look after a sick family member or a child can refuse a job offer, without getting their SW payment slashed.

If you want that in Ireland, go on, just vote for FG.

Irishstabber

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Sounds sensible to me, need to encourage people to invest in pensions

And 41% affects anyone over ~33k, not just "high earners"

As for welfare rates, nearly every aspect of welfare in this country is still at crazily high levels and needs to come down. Taxes and min wage rate has already been changed much more than welfare levels were touched and rent allowance still create a high artificial floor to rents costing us all hundreds a year.

Do you receive any kind of Social Welfare? When you do, then complain about how 'high' it is. The cost of living in this country adequately justifies our SW rates.

And be fore you ask, no I don't receive any SW whatsoever.

Cookie_Monster

Irishstabber wrote: »

Do you receive any kind of Social Welfare? When you do, then complain about how 'high' it is. The cost of living in this country adequately justifies our SW rates.

And be fore you ask, no I don't receive any SW whatsoever.

196 a week, 100 less than a min wage week (before tax) and transport cost. No incentive to work.

Also about 3 times the UK, is our cost of living three times theirs?

As already mentioned the SW rent allowance means 50% of the market is controlled by the state and maintained at excessively high prices as a result.

two simple examples.

alejandro1977

Labour want to have a marginal rate of tax of 55%

Why should anyone hand over more than half his salary to the government?

I'll leave before I do.

(I'd leave to find work before I'd claim the dole also BTW)

meditraitor

Social welfare/benefits need to come down...its simple

Tipp Man

A good reason to vote FG

If they reduce welfare, tame the monster that is the public sector and create an environment for getting business going then they will do a good job in government

PauloMN

Lars1916 wrote: »

Slashing SW payments for those capable to work is a copy of what was introduced in Germany a few years ago...no surprise to me, Enda Kenny was hugging Angela Merkel already :eek:

And the people in German didn't read the small print either...now people have to travel 90 minutes to work and have to take a job by all means, otherwise they loose their SW. But they had to vote for the conservative Christian Democrats, helping Mrs Merkel into power :mad:

Exceptions? Only those who look after a sick family member or a child can refuse a job offer, without getting their SW payment slashed.

If you want that in Ireland, go on, just vote for FG.

If people are capable of work and available to work, and there is work available for them, then why shouldn't their SW payments be slashed if they do not work?

I agree with the exceptions - If people cannot work due to needing to care for children, elderly or infirm people, they should be able to claim full benefits.

However, Ireland is a soft-touch for people who can't be bothered working, and given the state of our economy, we need to cut welfare wherever we can. It's ridiculous how much we spend on welfare compared to our tax take. Dole payments should be restricted to those who absolutely need them, like the genuine cases where people have lost their jobs and have bills to pay and families to provide for, not some 18 year old living at home with mammy who can't be arsed working. Time to get tough as far as I'm concerned.

Spudmonkey

Irishstabber wrote: »

Do you receive any kind of Social Welfare? When you do, then complain about how 'high' it is. The cost of living in this country adequately justifies our SW rates.

And be fore you ask, no I don't receive any SW whatsoever.

The cost of living will come down more when it is found that people can afford less.

alejandro1977

moceri wrote: »

I see Fine Gael have taken a severe Lurch to the Right by doing a U-Turn on their published proposals in their 4 Year plan (2010) for reliefs for High Earners to be rolled back to 41 % on their Pension contributions.

The 2011 Budget had already outlined plans to gradually reduce the relief to High Earners which disproportionately benefited the better off:

# The annual earnings cap for pension relief will fall from €150,000 to €115,000. The €115,000 earnings cap will also apply to contributions made in 2011 in respect of the 2010 tax year
# Tax relief will be reduced to 34% in 2012, 27% in 2013 and 20% in 2014

Fine Gael is planning to abolish this change and maintain it at 41% for High earners.

In contrast it is planning to slash Social Welfare payments to those physicially capable of work, regardless of wheter employment opportunities exist or not.

Talk about kicking a man when he is down.


Jobs need to be created first. Pensions can be kicked down the road.

Has it ever occurred to you that Governments don't create jobs? Entrepreneurs do!

I'm sick of all these proposed quangos and 'innovation funds' - the Dail is full of careerists who have never created any jobs - cut SW and taxes and free up workers to do things for themselves

average_runner

People need to invest in pensions otherwise this country will be alot worst for our kids in the future.

As for the dole, lets make the people on the dole work for it, I mean alot of people on the dole would love to do something worthwhile for their money.

There is parks that need to clean, walls that need to clean etc.

Will_H

I think a number of you giving out about the SW rate need to get the facts straight here and to put things in perspective....

There is approximately 14% of the workforce unemployed today. Approx. 3 years ago. it was 4%. So let me do the math for you to make it easy - that's an extra 10%. This does not take into account the 100,000 or so who have emigrated to date, although it does include the self-employed who can't find work but are not entitled to JB/JA.

The original 4% would have been the long-term unemployed, who, for whatever reason [too lazy, genuine reason, claimed illegally] stayed on the dole & received their benefits.

After more that 25 years working, I, sadly, am one of the 10% who is now on the dole. I was receiving 196 a week, however, with the cuts in SW to date, I am now on 160 per week.

I HATE being unemployed but I cannot find work.
It's demoralising, it's shameful, it's stressful. We can barely get by.

So -
DO NOT tell me I'm not entitled to my measly 160 a week - particularly after paying my taxes for the past 25 years!

DO NOT tell me I have "no incentive to work" because I receive too much on welfare.

Do any of you honestly think that someone who has been made unemployed over the past 24 months actually wants to be on the dole!!!?!! Get ****ing real....:mad:

pocketvenus

Will_H wrote: »

I think a number of you giving out about the SW rate need to get the facts straight here and to put things in perspective....

There is approximately 14% of the workforce unemployed today. Approx. 3 years ago. it was 4%. So let me do the math for you to make it easy - that's an extra 10%. This does not take into account the 100,000 or so who have emigrated to date, although it does include the self-employed who can't find work but are not entitled to JB/JA.

The original 4% would have been the long-term unemployed, who, for whatever reason [too lazy, genuine reason, claimed illegally] stayed on the dole & received their benefits.

After more that 25 years working, I, sadly, am one of the 10% who is now on the dole. I was receiving 196 a week, however, with the cuts in SW to date, I am now on 160 per week.

I HATE being unemployed but I cannot find work.
It's demoralising, it's shameful, it's stressful. We can barely get by.

So -
DO NOT tell me I'm not entitled to my measly 160 a week - particularly after paying my taxes for the past 25 years!

DO NOT tell me I have "no incentive to work" because I receive too much on welfare.

Do any of you honestly think that someone who has been made unemployed over the past 24 months actually wants to be on the dole!!!?!! Get ****ing real....:mad:

Well said.

I am in the same position I was made redundant about 18 months ago after working all my life, worked during the school hols, worked all during college and then once I left got a job and even moved jobs a few times. Never once had I ever been employmed and was such a blow when I was made redundant.

Had to move back home with my widowed Mum who barely survies as it is on her €196 a week. As she is a younger widow she gets nothing else not even a medical card as she has a small bit of savings.
I am only entitled to the €188 a week and trying to help my mum out with the bills, food etc. I have to keep a car on the road as I do not live on a bus line. As a sensible person and did as the Gov asked I saved while I was working, not alot but a small sum and due to this the Governemnt penalised me and told me I was not entitled to anything expect the basic €188.
My small amount of savings are just about wiped out what with trying to keep car on road, repay the loan I had for it which I regoniated with the bank and any more cuts to SW well I do not know how I could afford to pay bills anymore.

I am all for tacking fraud but this can be easily done if the Gov and Dept of SW could be bothered. All the SW payments are on computer so how about going after the 4% or whatever percentage we had on the SW who were always on it even at height of boom. They are the ones claiming everything and well able to play system.

There are hardly any jobs out there I should know I have lost count of how many jobs I have appplied for and you are lucky if you get a response or letter to say the usual. I do volunteer work but you would not believe how choosy some place are about who they will let volunteer. One of my degrees is in childcare and teaching and I have previous experience with proper vetting and references and I was told by the place I was not what they were looking for and not suitable. I want to work and have no desire to be on the SW for another 18 months but as jobs are not there why should I be penalised.

So people coming on here and making sweeping generalisations is just not on. I know everyone is angry but blaming the recently unemployed for bleeding the country dry and being a partail cause of the tax hikes etc is just plain silly.

Spudmonkey

Will_H wrote: »

Do any of you honestly think that someone who has been made unemployed over the past 24 months actually wants to be on the dole!!!?!! Get ****ing real....:mad:

So would you be in favour of long term recipients having their weekly amount slashed instead?

pocketvenus

Spudmonkey wrote: »

So would you be in favour of long term recipients having their weekly amount slashed instead?

I think now days the term long term unemployed needs to re-evulated.

Yes when jobs were plentyful and available people on claiming SW for 1 year longer etc it was accurate to say these people were long term umempoyed and maybe their payments need to be cut etc.

However when there are no jobs out there and if there are when you have 2000+ applying for 2 or 3 jobs well the whole defintion of LT umemployment becomes a different ball game and cutting benefits for genuine people is not the way to go.

MaceFace

Will_H wrote: »

I think a number of you giving out about the SW rate need to get the facts straight here and to put things in perspective....

There is approximately 14% of the workforce unemployed today. Approx. 3 years ago. it was 4%. So let me do the math for you to make it easy - that's an extra 10%. This does not take into account the 100,000 or so who have emigrated to date, although it does include the self-employed who can't find work but are not entitled to JB/JA.

The original 4% would have been the long-term unemployed, who, for whatever reason [too lazy, genuine reason, claimed illegally] stayed on the dole & received their benefits.

After more that 25 years working, I, sadly, am one of the 10% who is now on the dole. I was receiving 196 a week, however, with the cuts in SW to date, I am now on 160 per week.

I HATE being unemployed but I cannot find work.
It's demoralising, it's shameful, it's stressful. We can barely get by.

So -
DO NOT tell me I'm not entitled to my measly 160 a week - particularly after paying my taxes for the past 25 years!

DO NOT tell me I have "no incentive to work" because I receive too much on welfare.

Do any of you honestly think that someone who has been made unemployed over the past 24 months actually wants to be on the dole!!!?!! Get ****ing real....:mad:

While I have the utmost sympathy for anyone who is unlucky enough to find themselves unable to find a job, there are many people who are not in the same both, and they use the same word - entitlement.

I personally know a number of people of people, including immediate family members, who have no real interest in finding a new job. It drives me nuts, not so much that they are getting the dole, but more that they don't see the consequences of becoming long term unemployed.

From the specific people I know who are on the dole, there is one who doesn't want a job unless it is as cushy as their last. They don't want a desk 9-5 job and have shown no interest in looking for a new job.
Other person knows the system very well and receives a lot of benefits that enables them not to work. They have done this for a long time.
A number of others are living off their large redundancy payments and I have worked out that if I am made redundant, I could live for about 3-4 years before I would see any loss in income (as it would be supplemented by many other forms of income and cost savings from not working).

I think it is valid to question our social welfare rates when they are considered extremely generous by international norms, and personally I would be in favour of a dramatic overall.

When you only have a certain amount of money to go around though, no one should be exempt.

Good luck in seeking employment.

irishh_bob

Spudmonkey wrote: »

The cost of living will come down more when it is found that people can afford less.

true but thier are other areas which need adressing , like for instance the disgusting protection given to the likes of GP,s , dentists and consultants in this country , theese sections of the economy need to be opened up to competition and when they do eventually join the free market , the effects of a reduction in wellfare and indeed the minimum wage , will be much less severe

nesf

Irishstabber wrote: »

Do you receive any kind of Social Welfare? When you do, then complain about how 'high' it is. The cost of living in this country adequately justifies our SW rates.

And be fore you ask, no I don't receive any SW whatsoever.

I'm on just a bit over 30K a year. I sat down and worked it out, I'd actually be slightly better off financially (or pretty much even, down to less than 40 quid a week difference) on benefits. Considering how far above the minimum wage I am, this is fecking insane.

The issue isn't the baseline dole figure but all the supplementary benefits you get.

Edit: Should not, due to having bipolar my medical bills etc are higher than usual which makes benefits a lot more attractive since bipolar isn't covered by the Long Term Illness Scheme for some bloody reason.

pocketvenus

MaceFace wrote: »

While I have the utmost sympathy for anyone who is unlucky enough to find themselves unable to find a job, there are many people who are not in the same both, and they use the same word - entitlement.

I personally know a number of people of people, including immediate family members, who have no real interest in finding a new job. It drives me nuts, not so much that they are getting the dole, but more that they don't see the consequences of becoming long term unemployed.

From the specific people I know who are on the dole, there is one who doesn't want a job unless it is as cushy as their last. They don't want a desk 9-5 job and have shown no interest in looking for a new job.
Other person knows the system very well and receives a lot of benefits that enables them not to work. They have done this for a long time.
A number of others are living off their large redundancy payments and I have worked out that if I am made redundant, I could live for about 3-4 years before I would see any loss in income (as it would be supplemented by many other forms of income and cost savings from not working).

I think it is valid to question our social welfare rates when they are considered extremely generous by international norms, and personally I would be in favour of a dramatic overall.

When you only have a certain amount of money to go around though, no one should be exempt.

Good luck in seeking employment.

You have made valid points there and nobody is disputing the fact that there are people currently claiming who are quiet happy to live that way, people who are well able to pay the system and get the max from the SW.

However what is annoying the recently unemployed is that all we hear from the Gov about tacking fraud in the end there is nothing done about it. They tar everyone with the same brush instead of starting at the top and looking at people who make the dole their lives, people who abuse the system etc. There are massive savings to be made then, the they can look at rest of welfare cuts.

Also cost of living here is way too high here, laready we have Eircom putting up prices, new taxes etc.

Try to tackle these and the talk about cuts.

pocketvenus

nesf wrote: »

I'm on just a bit over 30K a year. I sat down and worked it out, I'd actually be slightly better off financially (or pretty much even, down to less than 40 quid a week difference) on benefits. Considering how far above the minimum wage I am, this is fecking insane.

The issue isn't the baseline dole figure but all the supplementary benefits you get.

Not everyone gets the supplementry benefits. It depends on the circumstances and there is a mistaken view that everyone on the dole gts everything.

I am unemployed and all I get is the basic €188. I am not entitled to a medical card or anything else like that. I know alot of the recently unemployed people in the same position.

Monty Burnz

Will_H wrote: »

I HATE being unemployed but I cannot find work.
It's demoralising, it's shameful, it's stressful. We can barely get by.

So -
DO NOT tell me I'm not entitled to my measly 160 a week - particularly after paying my taxes for the past 25 years!

DO NOT tell me I have "no incentive to work" because I receive too much on welfare.

Do any of you honestly think that someone who has been made unemployed over the past 24 months actually wants to be on the dole!!!?!! Get ****ing real....:mad:

This is a great advert for revising the way the dole is paid. Why should Will_H get the same amount on the dole as some scobe who has never done a day's work in his life and never intends to? A guy who is genuinely looking for work, who has contributed to this country for 25 years - and somehow he's deemed to merit the same help as the waste of space who has never done anything?

There's a very good argument for channelling money away from the wasters to give them an incentive to work and towards guys like Will_H who have been paying the wasters' dole money for them for the last 25 years.

nesf

pocketvenus wrote: »

Not everyone gets the supplementry benefits. It depends on the circumstances and there is a mistaken view that everyone on the dole gts everything.

I am unemployed and all I get is the basic €188. I am not entitled to a medical card or anything else like that. I know alot of the recently unemployed people in the same position.

You should qualify for the medical card though if you're just on the dole.

nesf

pocketvenus wrote: »

I think now days the term long term unemployed needs to re-evulated.

Yes when jobs were plentyful and available people on claiming SW for 1 year longer etc it was accurate to say these people were long term umempoyed and maybe their payments need to be cut etc.

However when there are no jobs out there and if there are when you have 2000+ applying for 2 or 3 jobs well the whole defintion of LT umemployment becomes a different ball game and cutting benefits for genuine people is not the way to go.

The proposal is to force people into education and/or training once they go past a certain amount of time on the dole. Honestly, if I was stuck on the dole for over two years I'd be signing on for any bloody course just to get out of the house for a few hours each week to keep me sane.

pocketvenus

nesf wrote: »

You should qualify for the medical card though if you're just on the dole.

Nope I though that also but I applied and was refused. I contacted the SW office and you knnow the usual lark there, about 2 weeks spent trying to get an answer and all I got was I did not meet criteria.

I presume it was as I had a small bit of savings ,which I have had to use to live and pay some of the car loan off and try to keep the VHI as I would otherwise be in deep trouble if I got sick etc.

I am going to reapply but apparently there is an 12- 18 month delay in the applications

pocketvenus

nesf wrote: »

The proposal is to force people into education and/or training once they go past a certain amount of time on the dole. Honestly, if I was stuck on the dole for over two years I'd be signing on for any bloody course just to get out of the house for a few hours each week to keep me sane.

Are they going to pay for it and ensure that person has enough money to survive as alot of the grants paid hadly cover the course cost.

FAS is a huge problem with lack of course they offer and alot of them are not suitable. I do not want to do a course which is of no use to me and also all I would be doing is taking a place away from a person who needs to be there. Courses need to be properly run and fit this whole new smart economy the PP are focusing on. So quailty science courses, IT courses and quailty ones not ECDL etc these are hwta should be focused on. But I feel now the move has been forget about the recently umemployed.

I have 2 honour degrees and a Diploma so alot of the course FAS offers are no good to me. I was told the only course availbale to me was an ECDL which I have years. I was told then I was on my own.

I have paid for a few course myself and have recently completed an FETAC Level 5 course. I am doing all this to keep busy, enhnace my skills and branch out.

I looked into doing a Master and it was €15,000 I cannot afford that and when i enquired about the Gov schemes available to help fund this there was nothing. I cannot magic that cash and then more to live while I study out of thin air.

Lawrence1895

PauloMN wrote: »

If people are capable of work and available to work, and there is work available for them, then why shouldn't their SW payments be slashed if they do not work?

I agree with the exceptions - If people cannot work due to needing to care for children, elderly or infirm people, they should be able to claim full benefits.

However, Ireland is a soft-touch for people who can't be bothered working, and given the state of our economy, we need to cut welfare wherever we can. It's ridiculous how much we spend on welfare compared to our tax take. Dole payments should be restricted to those who absolutely need them, like the genuine cases where people have lost their jobs and have bills to pay and families to provide for, not some 18 year old living at home with mammy who can't be arsed working. Time to get tough as far as I'm concerned.

You are absolutely right there. People who are exploiting the system should be punished, and those who are in need should benefit.

But still, we have to see the individual case...and I guess, someone who worked for decades in a certain job will find it hard to adapt into a new work environment.

And to conclude with something, I faced back in Germany. The employment agency wanted me to work in a Call Centre, selling Online Lotto Tickets over the phone...because I was a Social Worker with good communication skills.
Things like this might not happen here...I guess

Will_H

Spudmonkey wrote: »

So would you be in favour of long term recipients having their weekly amount slashed instead?

Unfortunately, it's not as simple as that.:( Firstly, there are different types of welfare for people. Be it JB/JA for the unemployed, to medical cards, childrens allowance, widows allowance, rental allowance - the list goes on & on. And as people have said already, if you know the system & how to milk it, there are those who just don't want to work.

However, if we are talking simply about Jobseekers Allowance (you move off Benefit after 12 months) it IS something the Govt needs to look at very seriously.

nesf wrote: »

Honestly, if I was stuck on the dole for over two years I'd be signing on for any bloody course just to get out of the house for a few hours each week to keep me sane.

This is also a problem for me. I had to sell my car in order to continue paying mortgage/bills etc. I live nearly 10km from the nearest town & I'm not near any public transport route.

When I do get a job again - and I will - I have no transport. I probably won't be able to get a loan as I am now blacklisted [for 5 years!] by the Irish Credit Bureau as I fell behind on payments for my Credit Card. Even though I had a blemish free record up until recently. And I can guarantee you I'm not the only one in this position.

liammur

moceri wrote: »

I see Fine Gael have taken a severe Lurch to the Right by doing a U-Turn on their published proposals in their 4 Year plan (2010) for reliefs for High Earners to be rolled back to 41 % on their Pension contributions.

The 2011 Budget had already outlined plans to gradually reduce the relief to High Earners which disproportionately benefited the better off:

# The annual earnings cap for pension relief will fall from €150,000 to €115,000. The €115,000 earnings cap will also apply to contributions made in 2011 in respect of the 2010 tax year
# Tax relief will be reduced to 34% in 2012, 27% in 2013 and 20% in 2014

Fine Gael is planning to abolish this change and maintain it at 41% for High earners.

In contrast it is planning to slash Social Welfare payments to those physicially capable of work, regardless of wheter employment opportunities exist or not.

Talk about kicking a man when he is down.


Jobs need to be created first. Pensions can be kicked down the road.

Welfare has to be slashed.

pocketvenus

liammur wrote: »

Welfare has to be slashed.

That is a bit of a wide reaching statement. Why does it have to be slashed.

What is someone said taxes need to be higher and there would be outcry among the working population and boards would be bombarded with posts saying well I pay enough tax already, I am on a low wage etc.

Same applies to welfare. Yes there are people doing quite well on it and milking the system but the majority of people on it now are recently unemployed and are struggling and not getting suplementry benefits.

So is your opinion that we are spending too much on it so cut it, without tackling fraud first to see how much of an impact it has and the huge savings that would be made thus reducing need for cuts.

Then one could have the opinion that well the Gov are not taking enough in so lets increase the tax basis for everyone regardless of earnings a board increase of % on all incomes.

It would not be fair in both situations and have the outcome of stifling growth and keeps us in recession.

liammur

pocketvenus wrote: »

That is a bit of a wide reaching statement. Why does it have to be slashed.

What is someone said taxes need to be higher and there would be outcry among the working population and boards would be bombarded with posts saying well I pay enough tax already, I am on a low wage etc.

Same applies to welfare. Yes there are people doing quite well on it and milking the system but the majority of people on it now are recently unemployed and are struggling and not getting suplementry benefits.

So is your opinion that we are spending too much on it so cut it, without tackling fraud first to see how much of an impact it has and the huge savings that would be made thus reducing need for cuts.

Then one could have the opinion that well the Gov are not taking enough in so lets increase the tax basis for everyone regardless of earnings a board increase of % on all incomes.

It would not be fair in both situations and have the outcome of stifling growth and keeps us in recession.

I agree taxes need to be raised. Politicians don't run a country the way a business is run. If you are nearly €200bn in debt after a disastrous FF government, pain has to be inflicted. Cuts and taxes.

EricPraline

pocketvenus wrote: »

What is someone said taxes need to be higher and there would be outcry among the working population and boards would be bombarded with posts saying well I pay enough tax already, I am on a low wage etc.

Same applies to welfare.

I'm not sure if you've noticed, but there have already been significant tax increases in the last few budgets, compared with relatively small cuts in welfare.

But as liammur says, higher taxes and spending cuts are inevitable. It's not a case of either/or at this stage.

pocketvenus

liammur wrote: »

I agree taxes need to be raised. Politicians don't run a country the way a business is run. If you are nearly €200bn in debt after a disastrous FF government, pain has to be inflicted. Cuts and taxes.

In practice yes too much debt you introduce cuts and taxes.

However I think it needs to be as fair as it can be. With cuts and taxes you will never please everyone there are ways.

First tackle fraud in the SW- it can be done and has been promised but never happens. We have such an excess of public servants put them to work doing this make them work for the CPA. There are huge savings to be made and I say if it was properly tacked we would be shocked at the amount to be saved.

OAP's need to be included in cuts - even if it was a €5 a week it would be something. That or introuced DIRT tax for them, maybe lose the free tv license, some gesture would help the economy.

CPA -needs to be be scrappped. I am not talking about front line staff such as nurses, firefighters, doctots etc losing jobs but the bloated admin side in all depts. Where there are 6 people doing the job of 3, wanting compensation for moving 2 desk down the office, not willing to work an hour longer a week and the list goes on. I mean you ring any Gov dept and you get a different answer to same question every single time.

Again for high earners and that is the 6 figure + salary well higher taxes, again tackle the whole avoidance of paying tax here, etc. I am sure there are other ways of dealing with these sort of issues.

For so long this country and Gov have just avoided tacking certain issues and now it has come back and bite us big time, well lets start as we mean to go on.

liammur

pocketvenus wrote: »

In practice yes too much debt you introduce cuts and taxes.

However I think it needs to be as fair as it can be. With cuts and taxes you will never please everyone there are ways.

First tackle fraud in the SW- it can be done and has been promised but never happens. We have such an excess of public servants put them to work doing this make them work for the CPA. There are huge savings to be made and I say if it was properly tacked we would be shocked at the amount to be saved.

OAP's need to be included in cuts - even if it was a €5 a week it would be something. That or introuced DIRT tax for them, maybe lose the free tv license, some gesture would help the economy.

Again for high earners and that is the 6 figure + salary well higher taxes, again tackle the whole avoidance of paying tax here, etc. I am sure there are other ways of dealing with these sort of issues.

For so long this country and Gov have just avoided tacking certain issues and now it has come back and bite us big time, well lets start as we mean to go on.

OAP's should be hit by at least €20 in the next budget, and that's just starters. That's if they are serious about tackling the debt pile.

pocketvenus

EricPraline wrote: »

I'm not sure if you've noticed, but there have already been significant tax increases in the last few budgets, compared with relatively small cuts in welfare.

But as liammur says, higher taxes and spending cuts are inevitable. It's not a case of either/or at this stage.

I have noticed actually but remember we majority of people on wefare still have same bills such as ESB, gas, food etc so they have to do that on €188 just saying & yes I know employed people also took huge cuts in pay but they still have a bit more income to cover these bits. Maybe not alot but still, the recently unemployed would be happy with that and have a job.

Those cuts are huge to some people on the SW and make all the difference.

axer

Will_H wrote: »

I think a number of you giving out about the SW rate need to get the facts straight here and to put things in perspective....

There is approximately 14% of the workforce unemployed today. Approx. 3 years ago. it was 4%. So let me do the math for you to make it easy - that's an extra 10%. This does not take into account the 100,000 or so who have emigrated to date, although it does include the self-employed who can't find work but are not entitled to JB/JA.

The original 4% would have been the long-term unemployed, who, for whatever reason [too lazy, genuine reason, claimed illegally] stayed on the dole & received their benefits.

After more that 25 years working, I, sadly, am one of the 10% who is now on the dole. I was receiving 196 a week, however, with the cuts in SW to date, I am now on 160 per week.

I HATE being unemployed but I cannot find work.
It's demoralising, it's shameful, it's stressful. We can barely get by.

So -
DO NOT tell me I'm not entitled to my measly 160 a week - particularly after paying my taxes for the past 25 years!

DO NOT tell me I have "no incentive to work" because I receive too much on welfare.

Do any of you honestly think that someone who has been made unemployed over the past 24 months actually wants to be on the dole!!!?!! Get ****ing real....:mad:

Forgetting about the shame etc the issue is the gap between minimum wage and the dole is way too low whereby someone on the dole with job seekers allowance, rent allowance and the medical card can get more than someone on the minimum wage. Not everyone has the self-driven incentitive to work as you do.

So its either lower the dole or increase the minimum wage. The latter would not be a good idea since it would decrease the competitiveness of Ireland in the international economy. Thus there is no choice but to lower the dole.

Having said that I would leave Job Seekers Benefit at 160-190 and extend the length of time to a max of 2 years. After that people should drop to job seekers allowance gradually by €10 a month until it bottoms out at €100.

pocketvenus

liammur wrote: »

OAP's should be hit by at least €20 in the next budget, and that's just starters. That's if they are serious about tackling the debt pile.

I agree on the OAP thing but last time I sais that on another thread I was bombared with usual of these poor oap's are on bread line etc

I have a feeling they won't hit the oap's etc they are just going to be protected as politicans are scared of them.

As I said first before we head for more savage cuts, taxes there are other area's that should be priortised to see can we see where € is being wasted and solve that problem then head for the usual cuts etc

Kracken

Any one that says social welface has to be cut is a moron, with no social aware or ability to see what state the country is in. You need to offer a solution first before you cut anything.

I am employed in a job that is a little above minimum wage and my wife is on JB, however we are living hand to mouth, we have no debts bar a mortgage which is is less that the national average (we did not over borrow and did not take 100% one either).

If they slash welfare what am I do, starve myself and live in the cold because i can't afford utilities.

So I ask if you think welfare needs to be slashed, justify why i shouldn't be allowed to eat, live in any form of comfort or be entitled to any form of happiness.

Why not instead slash all TD salaries to 60,000 a year regardless of position, reduce an civil servants wage above 60,000 a year.

Start selling state assets on a lower rate lease back method.

Use the profits raised by bailed out banks to supplement the states coffers, how about any of those suggestions?

liammur

pocketvenus wrote: »

I agree on the OAP thing but last time I sais that on another thread I was bombared with usual of these poor oap's are on bread line etc

I have a feeling they won't hit the oap's etc they are just going to be protected as politicans are scared of them.

As I said first before we head for more savage cuts, taxes there are other area's that should be priortised to see can we see where € is being wasted and solve that problem then head for the usual cuts etc

To be honest, I think the country is finished, so i'm not saying what should or should not be done. But if politicians are serious about the matter, there will have to be severe cuts and taxes across the board. None of which I'd gain any pleasure from.

pocketvenus

axer wrote: »

Forgetting about the shame etc the issue is the gap between minimum wage and the dole is way too low whereby someone on the dole with job seekers allowance, rent allowance and the medical card can get more than someone on the minimum wage. Not everyone has the self-driven incentitive to work as you do.

So its either lower the dole or increase the minimum wage. The latter would not be a good idea since it would decrease the competitiveness of Ireland in the international economy. Thus there is no choice but to lower the dole.

Having said that I would leave Job Seekers Benefit at 160-190 and extend the length of time to a max of 2 years. After that people should drop to job seekers allowance gradually by €10 a month until it bottoms out at €100.

That all is ideal in theory but what about practice.

What happens when a person applies for jobs all over and just is unfortunate not to get one should they be penalised for something out of their control.
I know highly educated and experience ppeopel who have been out of work for over 2 years. They have applied for every type of job and are lucky to get a letter in response never mind an interview. One of my friends was told he was over qualified for job he was applied for and not to bother as he would not be considered.

As I said the fraud needs to be tacked first and as I laid out in another post there are other areas need attention too.

pocketvenus

liammur wrote: »

To be honest, I think the country is finished, so i'm not saying what should or should not be done. But if politicians are serious about the matter, there will have to be severe cuts and taxes across the board. None of which I'd gain any pleasure from.

I am trying to remain positive but it is hard especially given my situation but it is hard to believe any of the politicans as there are only out for themselves and their cronies. The people who need to be targeted won't be while the rest of us suffer and have to put up with it.

Kristopherus

pocketvenus wrote: »

Nope I though that also but I applied and was refused. I contacted the SW office and you knnow the usual lark there, about 2 weeks spent trying to get an answer and all I got was I did not meet criteria.

I presume it was as I had a small bit of savings ,which I have had to use to live and pay some of the car loan off and try to keep the VHI as I would otherwise be in deep trouble if I got sick etc.

I am going to reapply but apparently there is an 12- 18 month delay in the applications

Apply again ASAP. The last time I looked at the PCRS website, they were claiming the could process applications in 4 weeks. If you are unemployed for more than 1 yr, then your average income will have reduced considerably.You were most likely assessed with a mixture of earned income & welfare income at your first application, which would have given an increased average. You also can have €20,000 in savings before you are penalised. Get cracking, and best of luck. BTW, you can check your eligibility on www.medicalcard.ie

axer

pocketvenus wrote: »

That all is ideal in theory but what about practice.

What happens when a person applies for jobs all over and just is unfortunate not to get one should they be penalised for something out of their control.
I know highly educated and experience ppeopel who have been out of work for over 2 years. They have applied for every type of job and are lucky to get a letter in response never mind an interview. One of my friends was told he was over qualified for job he was applied for and not to bother as he would not be considered.

Then they are not targeting their CVs correctly. There is no point applying for a lower level position with a CV that boasts of qualities working in the higher level position such as their high education and experience. They affectively need to dumb down their CV.

pocketvenus wrote: »

As I said the fraud needs to be tacked first and as I laid out in another post there are other areas need attention too.

No, fraud needs to be tackled as well along with the other areas.

Will_H

axer wrote: »

Forgetting about the shame etc the issue is the gap between minimum wage and the dole is way too low whereby someone on the dole with job seekers allowance, rent allowance and the medical card can get more than someone on the minimum wage. Not everyone has the self-driven incentive to work as you do.

So its either lower the dole or increase the minimum wage. The latter would not be a good idea since it would decrease the competitiveness of Ireland in the international economy. Thus there is no choice but to lower the dole.

Having said that I would leave Job Seekers Benefit at 160-190 and extend the length of time to a max of 2 years. After that people should drop to job seekers allowance gradually by €10 a month until it bottoms out at €100.

I agree to a degree Axer - what happens if there are no jobs??! How can you cut someone's allowance to €100?

And that's where the problem lies. I'd be pretty sure that most people getting JA/JB over the past 18-24 months are not getting rent allowance and lots of the other 'benefits'. Most of them bought their own homes over the past 10+ years.

Other things need to be done to lower the competitive costs within the country. Utility costs are too high, doctors fees are too high, prescriptions are too high, semi-state CEO's wages are too high, quangos costs are too high, TDs expenses are too high, TD's salaries are too high....we could go on & on. Once these costs are decreased, min wage can decrease & therefore SW costs can decrease.