I seriously have no idea who to vote for

Baralis1

Sorry, extremely long post.
Two weeks to the general election and I still have no idea who to vote for even though I follow politics fairly closely. I have reasons for not voting for each of the parties. There really is no good option. Historically I would have leaned towards Fianna Fail.

Fianna Fail
Micheal Martin appears to be the best canditate for Taoiseach, way ahead of Enda Kenny and ahead of Gilmore. They would appear to be the most stable option as historically they got a good vote and could rule with a small coalition partner/independents, and they have been fairly selfless in taking a lot of the hardest of the desisions to be made to put us back on track, and have done a lot of good during the good times, building up infrastructure, creating jobs and stability.
But, they have shown contempt at times for ordinary people. They have had a hand in the collapse of the economy and failed in regulating the financial sector and shouldn't have made all the debt a sovereign debt even though some of it had to be guarenteed at the time. (I take a very logical view of this and don't follow the tabloid style opinions).
Also, the party is rife with nepotism with a lot of the main TDs holding seats "in the family" and jobs for the boys very prevalent. They are also far too closely linked with the elite of developers and bankers in this country. And after 14 years, it is time for a change.
And most importantly, they signed up to EU bailout which I don't agree with because as someone who has always been cautious with money, I don't see why I should be hit by someone else's debt.

Fine Gael
They would have been my next preferred option historically. After Fianna Fail, their political views would have been close to my own also. They are a level headed party, and would probably keep us stable and might even get us out of this mess if they got an overall majority.
However, I believe Enda Kenny while an excellent administrator would be a weak Taoiseach and he has shown this time and time again most recently with dodging the TV3 debate.
Also, Fine Gael having taken part in the eternal punch and judy show in the Dail, also failed to see the economy collapse and encouraged the government to spend even more money than they did and critisized when they didn't.
Plus, Fine Gael want to demolish the Senate which I don't agree with and will continue with the EU bailout.
And a Fine Gael/Labour coalition will be very unstable and will not last more than a few years if they get into power.

Labour
I don't have much good to say about Labour. They change their policies regularly to pander to public opinion and to score political points. Eamon Gilmore was weak on details in the debate. Labour want to raise taxes which has never yet reversed a recession. And they keep hampering on taxing the wealthy and creating jobs which is a contradicton. The wealthy create jobs and won't be as inclined to with higher taxes. Labour also will continue with the bailout.

Greens
Focus too much on environmental issues. It's not long ago when the fate of the country rested on several hundred green delegates which is a bad situation. Also, they shouldn't have pulled the plug before the finance bill.

Sinn Fein
Firstly, I am totally against the fact that several high ranking members of the party have been involved an organisation (no matter how much they deny it) involved in terrorism, killing and intimidating innocent people for over 30 years. No matter how noble their cause and they did a lot of good in standing up for peoples rights, there is no excuse for harming civilians. Newer members of the party are blinded by/deny the obvious.
Leaving that aside, I would be almost tempted to vote for them for the fact that they are against shouldering this massive debt and the huge interest being imposed by the EU and will ensure the country defaults. However I am worried about their plans for after that. The Robin Hood ideals of tax the rich and give to the poor will not work. Blowing the pension reserve fund on keeping the country running will run it for a few months, but what then! Creating jobs out of thin air after taxing the rich? Impossible. I also fear the flight of multinationals.



United Left Alliance
Similar to Sinn Fein in their economic policies but more extreme. Vincent Brown cut right through Joe Higgins bluster the other night and asked what happens when we default. Joe's answer was, restrict flight of capital from the banks and tax the rich. What capital! The banks are broke. They plan to default but have no clear plan of action after.

Independants
Hold the country to ransom for local favours when they are in government, and contribute little to anyone besides their constitiuents.

So basically I am totally undecided. Does anyone want to reply with their own reasons/non reasons for voting for the different parties?

Sir Oxman

I'd say after reading the above that FG are your best bet.

Personally, I wouldn't rank Kenny not taking part in the TV3 debate as a deciding factor in my choice - the excuses given annoyed the hell out of me but pre- and post-TV3 debate, I think his initial stance was correct.

"They are a level headed party, and would probably keep us stable and might even get us out of this mess if they got an overall majority."

That's why FG should be your vote - if you want to see them govern alone, vote for them.

Ghost Estate

Baralis1 wrote: »

Independants
Hold the country to ransom for local favours when they are in government, and contribute little to anyone besides their constitiuents.

My god, you have a very cynical view of them. and this behaviour describes FF fairly well.

Overature

spoil you vote, thats what i plan to do

reverenddave

JUST DONT VOTE FF OR GREEN

Baralis1

gambiaman wrote: »

I'd say after reading the above that FG are your best bet.

Personally, I wouldn't rank Kenny not taking part in the TV3 debate as a deciding factor in my choice - the excuses given annoyed the hell out of me but pre- and post-TV3 debate, I think his initial stance was correct.

"They are a level headed party, and would probably keep us stable and might even get us out of this mess if they got an overall majority."

That's why FG should be your vote - if you want to see them govern alone, vote for them.

I would be happy with a Fine Gael single party/or coalition with small party/indepentants government if they had someone other than Kenny as leader. Leo Varadkar would be my preferred choice but Coveney or Bruton would be ok too. Fine Gael would need to talk tough with Europe and at the very least get that 5.8% interest rate down to 3%. They should also be aiming to get some of the debt forgiven as European bankers gambling on the Irish economy are also to blame with little Eurpoean regulation. I have little faith on Enda Kenny to achieve this.
I also don't like Michael Noonan and couldn't stand him as Finance Minister. That is more of a personality thing though as he is clued in to what's going on where Enda isn't as much.
I suppose Fine Gael are the party most likely to get in without Labour so maybe I should.

Baralis1

Ghost Estate wrote: »

My god, you have a very cynical view of them. and this behaviour describes FF fairly well.

Cynical but true of many of them. Just look at Michael Lowry and Jackie Healy Rae's behaviour in the last days of the Dail.

Baralis1

Overature wrote: »

spoil you vote, thats what i plan to do

Not an option for me. It's our civic duty to vote. I will come to a decision and vote for someone by election day.

cjgib

I feel exactly the same .am inclined to vote for the shinners just to bugger up the the rest of them.
shinners have the best policy on political salaries but the rest of their policies are rubbish

Dirk Gently

For the first time since I could vote I'm actually thinking about not bothering this time. I can't even bring myself to vote Lab or FG just to keep FF out. My constituency is a political wasteland. I cant even make out a least worst candidate to vote for never mind a best candidate.

Just a note on the independents though, it seems like a lot are standing on a reforming ticket as opposed to a gombeen ticket. A lot of them seem to be standing because they are disillusioned with the 3 stale main parties and are opposed to clientlism which sets them apart from the jackie healy rae types. I'd have a good look at your independent candidates before tarring them all with the healy rae brush. There could possibly be someone worth giving your vote to.

Aishae

i like the sound of FG - then i read about their plans for health insurance instead of free healthcare. look how that worked in the USA. i could never afford to keep myself alive and i know this goes for the majority of folks i know.
apart from that FG sound good, but im wary after reading about the insurance in several places.

none of them are perfect.
think the only thing we can do is vote in who is likely to f up the least in the country that is already effed up a fair bit.

Baralis1

clown bag wrote: »

For the first time since I could vote I'm actually thinking about not bothering this time. I can't even bring myself to vote Lab or FG just to keep FF out. My constituency is a political wasteland. I cant even make out a least worst candidate to vote for never mind a best candidate.

Just a note on the independents though, it seems like a lot are standing on a reforming ticket as opposed to a gombeen ticket. A lot of them seem to be standing because they are disillusioned with the 3 stale main parties and are opposed to clientlism which sets them apart from the jackie healy rae types. I'd have a good look at your independent candidates before tarring them all with the healy rae brush. There could possibly be someone worth giving your vote to.

That may be true. I have moved constituency and I've heard very little from the independents here. I'll reserve judgement and see.
However, due to the nature of our party based political system, they have very little voice or power. Now if like minded indepentants could form a political group and agree a manifesto, maybe I'd have more interest in them.

Baralis1

Aishae wrote: »

i like the sound of FG - then i read about their plans for health insurance instead of free healthcare. look how that worked in the USA. i could never afford to keep myself alive and i know this goes for the majority of folks i know.
apart from that FG sound good, but im wary after reading about the insurance in several places.

none of them are perfect.
think the only thing we can do is vote in who is likely to f up the least in the country that is already effed up a fair bit.

Yeah, I'm not in favour of their plan to rid up the health service and rebuild it again. It will mean another ten years of trolleys in corridors and poor service before it settles down again. They would be better off axeing a lot of administrative staff from the HSE, insisting on value for money from current employees and systems and cutting down on a lot of the wastage. Spend the money saved on opening closed and idle wards and ensuring at least a good A and E department in the smaller regional hospitals that they've been downgrading, and train and hire more frontline staff.

MrMatisse

A hell of a lot of people feel like the OP

StillWaters

Overature wrote: »

spoil you vote, thats what i plan to do

Why? As a protest? Against whom? Do you think politicians see your spoilt vote or something?

Spoilt votes make me weep, mostly because 80% are spoilt because no-one ever taught some people how to vote (e.g. 4 xes on the sheet), but those people bothered to come out and cast their useless vote.

For literate people to place such little value on their vote that they would deliberatley spoil it, makes me despair.

Pete_Cavan

Aishae wrote: »

i like the sound of FG - then i read about their plans for health insurance instead of free healthcare. look how that worked in the USA. i could never afford to keep myself alive and i know this goes for the majority of folks i know.
apart from that FG sound good, but im wary after reading about the insurance in several places.

The HSE is a black hole for money. We spend quite a lot on health and do not have great health services. Funding is not the problem, the problems are imbedded in the system and have been carried over from the old health boards and no amount of reform will eliminate them. FG are right, the HSE needs to be torn down and we need to start afresh.

I will be voting for FG because a lot of their policies are based on best international practice in that area (Dutch system for health, Finnish system for education, Canadian bank insurance) which is a lot better than the trial and error approach our governments tend to take.

R28

Baralis1 wrote: »

I would be happy with a Fine Gael single party/or coalition with small party/indepentants government if they had someone other than Kenny as leader. Leo Varadkar would be my preferred choice...

The thought of Varadkar as Taoiseach almost makes me want to throw up. Can't stand the smug that radiates from him like a bad odor.

f1dan

Baralis1 wrote: »

I would be happy with a Fine Gael single party/or coalition with small party/indepentants government if they had someone other than Kenny as leader. Leo Varadkar would be my preferred choice but Coveney or Bruton would be ok too. Fine Gael would need to talk tough with Europe and at the very least get that 5.8% interest rate down to 3%. They should also be aiming to get some of the debt forgiven as European bankers gambling on the Irish economy are also to blame with little Eurpoean regulation. I have little faith on Enda Kenny to achieve this.
I also don't like Michael Noonan and couldn't stand him as Finance Minister. That is more of a personality thing though as he is clued in to what's going on where Enda isn't as much.
I suppose Fine Gael are the party most likely to get in without Labour so maybe I should.

Hell no, that would mean we'd have to hear his ultra annoying voice more often!

Chucky the tree

I'm in a similiar position to you OP. I wouldn't consider myself a supporter of any of the political parties but I'm still going to vote. I've come to the conclusion that I'm never going to find a party where I agree with all of their major decisions or like the leader or majority of TD's but for me this election is too important to be letting minor issues like that getting in the way of voting. I wouldn't be able to not vote or abstain as I'd be sickened with myself if someone like SF,ULA or FF got into power, SF would be pretty much the death knell of the country and for me emigration would be a given. OP maybe make a list of the 5 most important things you want the new government to do and if they get the majority right then go with that.

I'll be voting for FG and while I don't like Enda Kenny I'm at stage where I don't really care how dull or whatever he is. We've tried the charismatic-man-of-people type of leader before and look where it's gotten us. I think at this stage having a sensible organisor who know's his limitations and his willing to let his Ministers do their job is a lot better then a popular taosieach who thinks he's great and can do no wrong.

Liam Byrne

Baralis1 wrote: »

Micheal Martin appears to be the best canditate for Taoiseach, way ahead of Enda Kenny and ahead of Gilmore. They would appear to be the most stable option as historically they got a good vote and could rule with a small coalition partner/independents, and they have been fairly selfless in taking a lot of the hardest of the desisions to be made to put us back on track, and have done a lot of good during the good times, building up infrastructure, creating jobs and stability.

All of the above is actually irrelevant when you realise that the reasons those decisions are required is because FF were so disastrous for the country.

Martin is a ducker and diver, spouting nonsense where possible to deflect from requests for any actual tangible act of contrition by FF.

How he could be a good Taoiseach when he stood by and voted with FF along the way is beyond me.

I'm genuinely stuck as to who to vote for in this election, for 2 reasons.

1) Firstly, I'd have put FG slightly ahead of Labour, and would have looked forward to a coalition of the two; both strong enough to represent a balance and both diplomatic enough to work out a suitable compromise, but Kenny has - despite putting a great team together, which I previously commended him for - come out of last week raising eyebrows......not because of a refusal to go on TV3's ridiculous debate (which having seen the fiasco I think was the best decision) but because the "reasons" quickly dissolved into ever-changing bull**** - as variable with each interview as an Ahern account of his finances

2) The boundaries in Limerick have been moved, so I can't vote for Noonan & O'Sullivan (my preferences) and the guys from the Wesht I haven't a clue about, and at first glance don't think they'd really represent me or my views.

So I'm stuck too.

CDfm

+1 OP

I pick up most of my news from the car radio & I am unimpresssed.

I just get this "I wanna be Elected" vibe, sound bites and Non sequiturs & I have 0 % trust in any politician.

Suryavarman

Aishae wrote: »

i like the sound of FG - then i read about their plans for health insurance instead of free healthcare. look how that worked in the USA. i could never afford to keep myself alive and i know this goes for the majority of folks i know.
apart from that FG sound good, but im wary after reading about the insurance in several places.

Their plans for health insurance aren't as bad as you initially may fear. The lowest earning 40% of people in the country won't have to pay for their insurance. The rest of the population will pay a maximum of €100 a month for their insurance. These figures are calculated using the Dutch model of insurance, which is highly regarded in the international community. Fine Gaels proposals shouldn't be compared with the American system of health care, which is farcical to say the least. It might not be free healthcare (which is ideal!) but it will hopefully be an improvement on the 2 tier system we currently have in place.

CDfm

Wait a minute - is this a tax under another name and look at what happened and its a compulsary 1,200 a year !!!!!!

In the UK their taxes are similar to ours and they have the NHS.

Health insurance The Netherlands recently introduced a new statutory health insurance system under the Health Insurance Act 2006 (Zorgverzekeringswet), replacing the previous Ziekenfonds health insurance system. Everyone living in the Netherlands is obliged to take out health insurance under this scheme, and will be reimbursed for their main healthcare needs under the basic insurance package. The system is administered by private insurance companies, and individuals can choose which company's scheme to join. All companies are required by law to accept anyone who applies for medical cover.
Members of the insurance scheme aged over 18 pay a nominal contribution, which varies between insurance companies but is around 92 Euros a month. People in employment or receiving state benefits are also required to make an income related contribution (6.25% of income is paid automatically by employers directly from salary, people who run their own business receive a bill from the tax authorities/belastingdienst), which is usually reimbursed by their employer or the relevant benefits agency. No contributions are required for children aged below 18.
http://www.expatfocus.com/expatriate-netherlands-holland-insurance

Isn't it really a middle class tax and a refusal to tackle the money pit that is the Irish Health Service.

Public Servants earn 49% more than those in the private sector - reverse benchmarking - Problem Solved.

The two tier system is if you are middle class you pay or you do without.

Tragedy

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The HSE is a black hole for money. We have among the highest spending per capita of health and yet one of the worst health services.

Proof?
According to this we're at 12th, behind some notable countries. According to this we are 19th in the world and 16th in Europe. Hardly "among the highest spending per capita and yet one of the worst health services"?

Funding is not the problem

Funding is one of the problems, the funding needs to be targetted whereas historically funding has just been given to be spent as hospitals wish.

the problems are imbedded in the system and have been carried over from the old health boards

The problems aren't embedded in the system, the problems are the unions who refuse to reform.

and no amount of reform will eliminate them.

Do you have any reports or evidence to back this up?

I will be voting for FG because a lot of their policies are based on best international practice in that area (Dutch system for health, Finnish system for education, Canadian bank insurance) which is a lot better than the trial and error approach our governments tend to take.

Strange then that the Netherlands ranks only two places above Ireland in Healthcare and one place above Ireland in funding.

Pete_Cavan

Tragedy wrote: »

Proof?
According to this we're at 12th, behind some notable countries. According to this we are 19th in the world and 16th in Europe. Hardly "among the highest spending per capita and yet one of the worst health services"?


Funding is one of the problems, the funding needs to be targetted whereas historically funding has just been given to be spent as hospitals wish.

The problems aren't embedded in the system, the problems are the unions who refuse to reform.


Do you have any reports or evidence to back this up?



Strange then that the Netherlands ranks only two places above Ireland in Healthcare and one place above Ireland in funding.

Are you seriously using Wikipedia as a source to defend the HSE?

God forbid you should ever have to go to A&E, receive any kind of surgery or be treated for a long term illness in this country. Then you would see what a blackhole the HSE is and no amount of Wikipedia stats will make you feel any better.

syklops

Yeah, I'm not in favour of their plan to rid up the health service and rebuild it again. It will mean another ten years of trolleys in corridors and poor service before it settles down again.

When did it ever settle down? We have trolleys in corridors right now, right this second, with people on them. Something has to be done.

Proof?
According to this we're at 12th, behind some notable countries. According to this we are 19th in the world and 16th in Europe. Hardly "among the highest spending per capita and yet one of the worst health services"?

I don't know what the criteria for that is, but I can tell you from personal experience that there is no way we are ahead of Poland, Czech Republic, and Slovakia.

I had to go to A&E in Poland a few years ago during a Doctors strike. Having spent 26 hours about 6 weeks earlier in an A&E in Galway with a relative, I pleaded with my GF not to make me go to A&E.but she is a stubborn thing and made me go. I went in, got treated and was out in 40 minutes. I was gobsmacked.

Granted you can't judge a health service just on its A&E, but it should be a contributing factor, and the state our A&E is in, it should be a minus 100 on any test sheet.

Dr Bill

Is it possible that we are just going to get more of the same regardless of who we vote for?Looking at the posters around,it's the same faces staring back at me from every pole and junction that I see,these are mostly the same people who were either in govt or opposition over the past decade and to be honest I wouldn't be inspired by any of them.Having said that I will vote on polling day and I will make my choice probably on the day after reading all the literature and listening to all the waffle and my decision will be made by whoever comes closest to giving the workers a break,doing something to improve the health system,tackling the corrupt banking service,and at least maintaining the education system if not improving it.Is all of this too much to ask for,am I pi``ing against the wind??So come on politicians,be honest,lay the cards on the table and tell us, the electorate,what are you going to do in order to get my vote and please, BE HONEST this time.:rolleyes:

Londonite

I really think a spoilt vote means no more, in these particular economic circumstances, than not bothering to vote. A spoilt vote as a means of protest may mean something if there are credible candidates excluded from the election. I don't think there are. I think we really need to try and choose candidates and parties we hope can make some difference. I still don't know who I am going to vote for but I am certainly going to try and decide who the best of a bad lot might be.

Chucky the tree

Tragedy wrote: »

Proof?
According to this we're at 12th, behind some notable countries. According to this we are 19th in the world and 16th in Europe. Hardly "among the highest spending per capita and yet one of the worst health services"?

First report is 4 years old and the second is 11 years old.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Baralis wrote:

They would have been my next preferred option historically. After Fianna Fail, their political views would have been close to my own also. They are a level headed party, and would probably keep us stable and might even get us out of this mess if they got an overall majority.
However, I believe Enda Kenny while an excellent administrator would be a weak Taoiseach and he has shown this time and time again most recently with dodging the TV3 debate.

Weak in what way? What ways does a taoiseach need to be strong that Kenny isn't?

He survived the heave against him which shows he is not weak within FG and that's all that really matters.

LiamByrne wrote:

2) The boundaries in Limerick have been moved, so I can't vote for Noonan & O'Sullivan (my preferences) and the guys from the Wesht I haven't a clue about, and at first glance don't think they'd really represent me or my views.

From a national point of view does that really matter? You say you want to vote Noonan - well by voting for Fine Gael candidates you're effectively voting for Noonan by proxy because he's prob going to be Finance Minister(or some other ministry if its a Lab/FG coalition)

Chardee MacDennis

same position as the OP

I will never vote for FG with Kenny as their leader
Labour wont get my vote as they have their heads up their a$$e$ and will probably ruin or economy more
FF can we trust them? probably not but i wouldnt trust any others either

I think i'm gonna go independent first and i dont know about my number 2.

Would love a hung dail as this may get across the dissatisfaction with the quality of candidates, as i've said before a poor opposition is as dangerous as a poor gov and we've got into this mess due to how crap 99% of politicians are...

Liam Byrne

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

From a national point of view does that really matter? You say you want to vote Noonan - well by voting for Fine Gael candidates you're effectively voting for Noonan by proxy because he's prob going to be Finance Minister(or some other ministry if its a Lab/FG coalition)

Fair point, however I do want to ensure that whoever I vote for is (a) worthy of the position (b) will work for Ireland and (c) represents the Ireland that I'd like to see.

So I'm not going to simply vote for a party or candidate ONLY on the basis of what party they represent.

O'Dea would be ruled out based on both him and his party, and what they represent
Power would be ruled out based the party; likewise Quinlivan

But I'm not going to vote someone in only on based on the party, to just make up numbers.......

Yes, there's some argument that if a party has chosen someone to represent them then they have some credibility, however that's not a 100% argument.

Pete_Cavan

BastardPrince wrote: »

I will never vote for FG with Kenny as their leader

So would you prefer a man of the people who is going to say all things people want to hear like Bertie again? Id rather have a realist who doesnt buy into all this X factor-type politics that MM and Gilmore love.

BastardPrince wrote: »

I think i'm gonna go independent first and i dont know about my number 2.

I hate this talk of voting for independents. Do people realise that most (if not all) independents will not even have full speaking rights in the Dail? You are supposed to elect the person you want to be your voice in our parliament, whats the point in electing someone with no voice? Also, it is very unlikely any independents will form part of the next government because of the likelyhood of a FG/Lab coalition.

BastardPrince wrote: »

Would love a hung dail as this may get across the dissatisfaction with the quality of candidates, as i've said before a poor opposition is as dangerous as a poor gov and we've got into this mess due to how crap 99% of politicians are...

A hung Dail would only encourage more useless independents who will have zero influence in the Dail.

CDfm

Tragedy wrote: »

The problems aren't embedded in the system, the problems are the unions who refuse to reform.

It seems to me that politically when any party try to do anything about it they are fairly bolloxed,

Where is the concensus and come hell or high water the politicians should decide on a five year national plan to tackle the health services and legislate for it.

It seems to me that the Dept of Health Officials whose job it is just wont do it. That is quite reminiscent of tolerating residential instiutution child abuse.

Either have service delivery or close the DoH down.

If the Labour Party wont cooperate isnt it time FG showed if they have substance or are just talk.

Chardee MacDennis

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

So would you prefer a man of the people who is going to say all things people want to hear like Bertie again? Id rather have a realist who doesnt buy into all this X factor-type politics that MM and Gilmore love.

no would you prefer a dictator? see it makes no sense to throw out crap like that.

i would have voted for FG had Bruton as leader - just cant vote for Kenny he is not a leader in any way shape or form.

X-Factor type politics? You mean televised debates?

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I hate this talk of voting for independents. Do people realise that most (if not all) independents will not even have full speaking rights in the Dail? You are supposed to elect the person you want to be your voice in our parliament, whats the point in electing someone with no voice? Also, it is very unlikely any independents will form part of the next government because of the likelyhood of a FG/Lab coalition.

so what you're saying is there is no point voting for someone unless they are going to get into power? how does that make sense?

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

A hung Dail would only encourage more useless independents who will have zero influence in the Dail.

yup so the parties may have to step up their game; get rid of the teachers and start getting some economists, scientists, doctors and other specialised folk into their ranks...

Morag

I reckon FG will keep a hold of Enda to shore up the older and more rural votes but after he's had a go of the office of Teashock and unlocked that achievement, we will see a new leader come to the fore.

grahmkeatley

Baralis1 wrote: »

Sorry, extremely long post.
Two weeks to the general election and I still have no idea who to vote for even though I follow politics fairly closely. I have reasons for not voting for each of the parties. There really is no good option. Historically I would have leaned towards Fianna Fail.

-snip-

In case it is of any use for direct comparison of Election Policy promises;

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056176877

-Graham

Pete_Cavan

BastardPrince wrote: »

no would you prefer a dictator? see it makes no sense to throw out crap like that.

i would have voted for FG had Bruton as leader - just cant vote for Kenny he is not a leader in any way shape or form.

X-Factor type politics? You mean televised debates?

Bruton would be wasted as Taoiseach IMO. His talants would be better put to use as minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment (which he most likely will be in an FG government) instead of playing up to the media. That would be X-Factor type politics.

BastardPrince wrote: »

so what you're saying is there is no point voting for someone unless they are going to get into power? how does that make sense?

Im saying there is no point voting for someone they have a chance of being part of a government. How does voting for someone who may not even be allowed to speak in parliament make sense? If you want to be voiceless that is up to you.

BastardPrince wrote: »

yup so the parties may have to step up their game; get rid of the teachers and start getting some economists, scientists, doctors and other specialised folk into their ranks...

And how do you propose to get these specialised folk, who will no doubt have a very good job in the private sector, into politics?

CDfm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

So would you prefer a man of the people who is going to say all things people want to hear like Bertie again? Id rather have a realist who doesnt buy into all this X factor-type politics that MM and Gilmore love.

No but I want a leader who will lead and assert authority over the public service. That is very specific. .

As per John Bruton the dail is little more than a talking shop that ratify civil service decisions. He said thats what happened in his government.

So will Enda Kenny do that & has he said he will do that.

A hung Dail would only encourage more useless independents who will have zero influence in the Dail.

A hung Dail is irrelevant if the Government cannot exercise authority over the civil & public service anyway.

What difference would it make ?????

COYW

Sharrow wrote: »

I reckon FG will keep a hold of Enda to shore up the older and more rural votes but after he's had a go of the office of Teashock and unlocked that achievement, we will see a new leader come to the fore.

That is a major worry for me. The last thing the country needs is a leadership battle within FG, if they lead the next government. They need to be concentrating on the banks, reforming the public sector etc, as opposed to inhouse matters.

Tragedy

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Are you seriously using Wikipedia as a source to defend the HSE?

It was early morning, I had 5 minutes, the 2000 World Health Report(Is WHO not a reputable enough source for you?) was the first comprehensive report to come up.

At least I actually found some metrics, if even out of date. I asked you for proof to back up your claims and you didn't bother.

God forbid you should ever have to go to A&E, receive any kind of surgery or be treated for a long term illness in this country. Then you would see what a blackhole the HSE is and no amount of Wikipedia stats will make you feel any better.

I worked in A&E for three months in 2009 and worked in a hospital between 2007-2010.
I'll ignore the ridiculous "WONT SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN" 'evidence'.

Chucky the tree wrote: »

First report is 4 years old and the second is 11 years old.

See above^
The only recent comparative rankings on European healthcare has been the annual Euro Health Consumer Index which I think someone has already posted the statistics for(hint: significant improvements for Ireland).
I don't have a problem with people saying our health service is significantly flawed, I have a problem with someone stating that "We have among the highest spending per capita of health and yet one of the worst health services" with what appears to be zero evidence.

Surprise!

CDfm

Tragedy wrote: »

The only recent comparative rankings on European healthcare has been the annual Euro Health Consumer Index which I think someone has already posted the statistics for(hint: significant improvements for Ireland).
I don't have a problem with people saying our health service is significantly flawed, I have a problem with someone stating that "We have among the highest spending per capita of health and yet one of the worst health services" with what appears to be zero evidence.

Surprise!

But the people who say it most of all are the Irish Nurses Organisation with their numbers on trollies press releases.

Those news stories really get up my snots and its like the INO wants to rub our noses in it.

The Health Services have been given shedloads of money and are very highly paid.

So they have a lot of cheek and sense of entitlement having duped our public representatives into giving them the cash not to reach agreement on effectively spending it.

Health care is a serious business and people die if they don't get treatment they can die.

I just wonder does anyone keep an INO Body Count like the Jenny McCarthy Body Count in the US.

Its this kind of information as a public and voters we need to know & I am sure someone knows.

Morag

You'd not think shed loads of money had gone into it, if you were front line in any of the hospitals which is where patients end up on trolleys, we have less wards and less beds then we did 10 years ago. All that money went into dodgy payroll systems, consultants pockets and put in an admin layer who havn't a ****ing clue. In the mean time it's the nurses dealing with the sick people who are in enough pain with out being on a trolley.

Tragedy

Sharrow wrote: »

You'd not think shed loads of money had gone into it, if you were front line in any of the hospitals which is where patients end up on trolleys, we have less wards and less beds then we did 10 years ago. All that money went into dodgy payroll systems, consultants pockets and put in an admin layer who havn't a ****ing clue. In the mean time it's the nurses dealing with the sick people who are in enough pain with out being on a trolley.

Less wards and less beds is a very recent phenomenon, which is one that will continue for so long as Hospitals/HSE are unable to reduce staffing levels.

A hospital is told it has €2million less but it's not able to reduce its payroll costs - what other way is there to reduce expenditure?

And yes, Nurses are just as guilty as other staff in Hospitals of supporting Unions that insisted on ridiculous demands while the times were good. And yes, Nurses have also contributed to an extra admin layer. Nurses require seperate HR departments, Nurses require HCA's, nurses require cleaners, nurses require ward clerks.
Fair enough, nurses are also taking on some extra duties doctors use to provide, but to paint nurses as the sole martyred employees in the HSE is silly and simplistic.

CelticRambler

Ghost Estate wrote: »

My god, you have a very cynical view of them. and this behaviour describes FF fairly well.

Baralis1 wrote: »

Cynical but true of many of them. Just look at Michael Lowry and Jackie Healy Rae's behaviour in the last days of the Dail.

It's worth making a distinction between independents and party dissidents. JHR is just a FF tomcat who's escaped into the wild; ML is FG with attitude. What's really needed - and they are out there - are people with no party affiliation and less committment to their constituency.

Thomas_S_Hunterson

Baralis1 wrote: »

Not an option for me. It's our civic duty to vote. I will come to a decision and vote for someone by election day.

Some would say it's downright reckless and dangerous to support a sub-standard candidate just because they're the best of a bad bunch.

CDfm

Sharrow wrote: »

You'd not think shed loads of money had gone into it, if you were front line in any of the hospitals which is where patients end up on trolleys, we have less wards and less beds then we did 10 years ago. All that money went into dodgy payroll systems, consultants pockets and put in an admin layer who havn't a ****ing clue. In the mean time it's the nurses dealing with the sick people who are in enough pain with out being on a trolley.

I have a bit of sympathy for some health care workers.

Why not do this then.

Fire the expensive deadwood and admin layer in the hospitals and the Department of Health.

The payroll system was impossible because there are something like 1001 seperate pay grades at each hospital and each hospital differs from the next. Health Service Unions wouldnt negotiate by any chance.

If Hospitals were given grants for service delivery rather than block grants and the worst could go broke or have patients moved from them and staff loose their jobs then you would have a huge attitude change.

Slattsy

R28 wrote: »

The thought of Varadkar as Taoiseach almost makes me want to throw up. Can't stand the smug that radiates from him like a bad odor.

Totally agree, i despise him.
What is with that smugness ?? he's no reason to be smug. He really get on my tits !

Pete_Cavan

Thomas_S_Hunterson wrote: »

Some would say it's downright reckless and dangerous to support a sub-standard candidate just because they're the best of a bad bunch.

Some would say it's downright reckless and dangerous to abstain from voting and let others vote in the worst of a bad bunch.

Tragedy

Pete, I'll just ask this once and then drop it. Do you have any evidence, proof or facts to back up your earlier claims on our health system? Something that isn't an emotive populist heart string pulling anecdote of A&E.

CDfm

Tragedy wrote: »

Pete, I'll just ask this once and then drop it. Do you have any evidence, proof or facts to back up your earlier claims on our health system? Something that isn't an emotive populist heart string pulling anecdote of A&E.

But the Health Services got the Money and havent delivered.

Its fine to post about trolleys in Dublin Hospitals and these things make very little sense to someone living in the arse end of no-where.

I think the real point is the Health Services have taken the money and not delivered and should be held in equal contempt for not delivering. Individually they don't suffer.

As Voters we shouldn't really have to worry about who is right - unions or management - if they can't get on and deliver just get rid of the institutions and let them off.

Its that simple.