Politics and Religion

yeppydeppy

I just saw this on the RTE website:

"Fine Gael leader Enda Kenny has said his prayers and the prayers of the country are with those who had lost their lives."

I'm an undecided voter but after reading that I definitely will not vote Fine Gael - we've had enough religion in this country over the generations and I can not believe in or have respect for someone who thinks there is a magic god in heaven looking after us.

Are there other religious politicians?

RetroBate

yeppydeppy wrote: »

I just saw this on the RTE website:

"Fine Gael leader Enda Kenny has said his prayers and the prayers of the country are with those who had lost their lives."

I'm an undecided voter but after reading that I definitely will not vote Fine Gael - we've had enough religion in this country over the generations and I can not believe in or have respect for someone who thinks there is a magic god in heaven looking after us.

Are there other religious politicians?

This is just as crazy as a religious person saying they won't vote for a party because its leader is an atheist.

jhegarty

yeppydeppy wrote: »

I just saw this on the RTE website:

"Fine Gael leader Enda Kenny has said his prayers and the prayers of the country are with those who had lost their lives."

I'm an undecided voter but after reading that I definitely will not vote Fine Gael - we've had enough religion in this country over the generations and I can not believe in or have respect for someone who thinks there is a magic god in heaven looking after us.

Are there other religious politicians?

So to be clear

1) You want a complete separation of politics and religion
2) You are deciding your vote based on a party leaders religion

Hypocritical much ?

Sad Professor

Do any of the party leaders admit to not being religious?

Newaglish

You have to consider their policies rather than their personal stance. A religious Taoiseach may still be in favour of secular education, for example.

Also, the phrase "my prayers are with you" and whatnot is really just a phrase for a large part. Most people aren't actually kneeling down with their hands clasped together and actually praying for anyone when they say that.

That being said, I would probably favour an atheist Taoiseach because their more likely to have secular policy goals. Which I suppose contradicts my previous point a little.

Cookie_Monster

There was a mention of a prayer at the start of every Dail session recently on Newstalk.

That's the kind of thing that needs to be cut out if true, individuals can believe what they want, and Enda is expressing that in the above example IMO, but a prayer as part of the opening of the Dail is a disgrace.

Liam Byrne

I couldn't care less whether they believe in God, or aliens, or anything else, as long as they can do their job!

OP - given the two choices below, would you vote for

a) someone competent who believed in God
b) someone incompetent who didn't

?

mikemac

You're choosing your vote based on somebody's beliefs yet at the same time you're saying the politics and religion should be separate.

Are you tripping yourself up here?

Quackles

There are oodles of legitimate reasons not to vote FG, this is not one of them.

LeixlipRed

Every person is entitled to a choice of faith, entitled to practice whatever religion they wish. Don't base you choices upon such silly things. Base them upon the fact that Fine Gael will implement savage cuts once they obtain power. Cuts that will fall on the most vunerable in society. To quote Richard Boyd Barret,

"Fine Gael are Fianna Fail in drag."

Cookie_Monster

LeixlipRed wrote: »

To quote Richard Boyd Barret,

"Fine Gael are Fianna Fail in drag."

Still better than Richard Boyd Barret though.

P. Breathnach

I don't care about the religious beliefs of politicians so long as those beliefs do not obtrude into their public role. Mind you, it's not a simple distinction, because a religious belief can inform the values that the politician espouses. But I'm a reasonably grown-up person, and can figure out for myself what a convinced Catholic is likely to consider socially desirable.

It would have been preferable if Kenny used a more neutral verbal formula, such as that his thoughts were with the victims. It would also have suited me better, because as an atheist I do not want to be included in his statement about "the prayers of the country", but I am not so churlish as to shout out "except mine, because I don't pray".

Laminations

Is the OP really taking offence to someone offering prayers for the dead? He didn't say he was going to pray to any specific god or deity, and even if he did I wouldn't mind someone trying to say something consoling if they offered prayers to Allah, Vishnu, Shiva, or Lucifer, none of whom I believe in.

Riskymove

I think its a bit ironic that he should lose a vote for appearing to have religious beliefs

its not that long ago a Politician would have to portray (regardless of actual beliefs) her/himself as a strong catholic to have any chance!!

yeppydeppy

I don't just want separation of politics and religion - I don't want religion at all.

Kasabian

yeppydeppy wrote: »

I don't just want separation of politics and religion - I don't want religion at all.

Exclusion of religion is never going to happen.

The fact that someone follows a particular religion should have no interest to you unless his or her policies are directly influenced by their religion. In this case they wouldn't be your preferrred option so shouldn't be an issue.

Reilly616

yeppydeppy wrote: »

I don't just want separation of politics and religion - I don't want religion at all.

Um, me too, but there's far more important religion themed problems with the state than having a politician express his sympathies for the grieving... It's just a turn of phrase anyway. Religious discrimination backed up by constitutional provisions are what need to be tackled. The separation of church and state does not mean the removal of religious politicians, it means the removal of state sponsored discrimination on the basis of religion.

Ghost Estate

I knew it was only a matter of time before the anti-religious crowd showed up.

Laminations

Kasabian wrote: »

Exclusion of religion is never going to happen.

The fact that someone follows a particular religion should have no interest to you unless his or her policies are directly influenced by their religion. In this case they wouldn't be your preferrred option so shouldn't be an issue.

I don't even care much about what influences policies. If I agree with the policy and think it is good then it matters not if religion influenced its conception or aliens told him in his sleep. Religion has influenced many good policies and not just that, art, literature and scientic endeavours..

Kasabian

Laminations wrote: »

I don't even care much about what influences policies. If I agree with the policy and think it is good then it matters not if religion influenced its conception or aliens told him in his sleep. Religion has influenced many good policies and not just that, art, literature and scientic endeavours..

That's a fair statement, my post was in response to a poster that wants religion excluded.

It is about policies, religion influencing a policy couldn't be a policy embraced by someone who wants religion excluded.

This country needs strong policies to influence the recovery of the economy and I don't care if they come from Martians as long as this country gets back on it's feet.

Riskymove

yeppydeppy wrote: »

I don't just want separation of politics and religion - I don't want religion at all.

so let me get this right


Politician A is the most visionary person you know, has all the answers to your problems, selfless and determined to do whats best for the Country

Politician B is the most usless, stupid, cruel person you know who only cares about himself

Politician A has some sort of religious belief but Politican B does not

Your beliefs are such that you would vote for Politician B?

LeixlipRed

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Still better than Richard Boyd Barret though.

I go back on what I said, at least RBB doesn't believe in mythical beings

Muppet Man

Politician B is the most usless, stupid, cruel person you know who only cares about himself

You mean he's from Fianna Fail?



j/k, relax. I'm sure they're all lovely.

Muppet Man

RetroBate

yeppydeppy wrote: »

I don't just want separation of politics and religion - I don't want religion at all.

Ever read the Irish Constitution?

It starts:

"In the name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred. We the people of Éire, humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, Who sustained our fathers through centuries of trial.............etc, etc.

If you've never read it you may be surprised by some of the stuff in it.

Labour are proposing a Constitutional forum to report within a year. It needs some serious modernising IMO.

bleg

I'd like to see plans to reform the role religion plays in the State. This is something that politicians could definitely achieve and definitely have enough power to implement. However we all end up debating economic issues that the politicians have no control over and haven't got a clue about.

PauloMN

Religion hasn't messed up anything, people have. To not vote for someone because they said something about keeping people in their prayers is pathetic tbh. Aside from that, you probably would cut most of your candidates out of the picture, as most people would say something like that after a tragedy.

looksee

bleg wrote: »

I'd like to see plans to reform the role religion plays in the State. This is something that politicians could definitely achieve and definitely have enough power to implement. However we all end up debating economic issues that the politicians have no control over and haven't got a clue about.

Can you imagine how much time and energy the country could waste debating religion, it would certainly distract everyone from the economic situation anyway!

Religion has already removed itself from power to a considerable extent. Leave it alone and it will eventually atrophy, without the disturbance and upheaval that forcible removal would cause.

Reilly616

looksee wrote: »

Religion has already removed itself from power to a considerable extent. Leave it alone and it will eventually atrophy, without the disturbance and upheaval that forcible removal would cause.

Provisions of the Constitution do not just disappear by themselves. Discrimination of any kind is to be denounced. This would be a relatively easy thing to rectify, the suggestions have been there since the Constitution Review Group of 1996. All it will take is a little initiative.

Focalbhach

The OP puts me in mind of the recent thread where someone was moved to express their deep outrage that President McAleese took it upon herself to attend Michaela McAreavey's funeral. 'Churlish' is a kind description.

As an atheist, I say that I that I find nothing objectionable in Mr Kenny's statement, and I fully support the sentiment behind it.

Manach

Given the positive role the Catholic church and individual members thereof have played in Irish society, the chances of religious ethos somehow disappearing from the social mileau are about as reality based as the 18th century French philosophers predicting the Churches demise.

Reilly616

Manach wrote: »

Given the positive role the Catholic church and individual members thereof have played in Irish society, the chances of religious ethos somehow disappearing from the social mileau are about as reality based as the 18th century French philosophers predicting the Churches demise.

Not really. The nation is becoming secular at an accelerating rate. You'll see it again with the census this year.

robindch

Manach wrote: »

Given the positive role the Catholic church and individual members thereof have played in Irish society, the chances of religious ethos somehow disappearing from the social mileau are about as reality based as the 18th century French philosophers predicting the Churches demise.

After the reports of the last few years, I'm inclined to think that there are rather few people still singing the praises of the catholic church.

I do grant you, though, the certainty that religion will continue to evolve new forms which will take the place of the older forms, as they die out. The 18th century philosophes were not aware of Evolution.

And given that the catholic church controls access and much else in 93% of the nation's schools, it's going to be a long, long time before children can grow up untainted by its "ethos".

randomhuman

Newaglish wrote: »

You have to consider their policies rather than their personal stance. A religious Taoiseach may still be in favour of secular education, for example.

Also, the phrase "my prayers are with you" and whatnot is really just a phrase for a large part. Most people aren't actually kneeling down with their hands clasped together and actually praying for anyone when they say that.

That being said, I would probably favour an atheist Taoiseach because their more likely to have secular policy goals. Which I suppose contradicts my previous point a little.

I couldn't really care less what religious beliefs any politicians have, but Fine Gael are a bit wishy-washy on the subject of god in the constitution, schools, hospitals, etc. Atheist Ireland recently asked all the major parties a series of questions on the topic and all but FF have responded, so even if we can't elect an atheist Taoiseach we can at least see where they all stand:

http://www.atheist.ie/information/2011-general-election/

robindch

Reilly616 wrote: »

The nation is becoming secular at an accelerating rate. You'll see it again with the census this year.

FYI - over in the Atheists and Agnostics Forum, we've two threads going about the census:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056144251
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056146049

Reilly616

randomhuman wrote: »

I couldn't really care less what religious beliefs any politicians have, but Fine Gael are a bit wishy-washy on the subject of god in the constitution, schools, hospitals, etc. Atheist Ireland recently asked all the major parties a series of questions on the topic and all but FF have responded, so even if we can't elect an atheist Taoiseach we can at least see where they all stand:

http://www.atheist.ie/information/2011-general-election/

I've seen this and also thought that FG were being rather vague. I think Labour are clearest concerning their ideas on religion. I'm a Norris man myself, but it'd be interesting if Michael D. Higgins got the Presidency. As far as I know, he's an atheist, but would have to swear a religious oath before taking office.

robindch

greendog34 wrote: »

Can anyone tell me what would happen if we just didn't vote, would it send a message to everyone in politics that we are not happy, sure there might have to be a re-vote, but would it be nice for once to take back our country and the only people that are going to get us out of this mess is us, lets take back the county

Take back your country from whom? The country's citizens elects the country's politicians, and ultimate power and responsibility lies with the former, not the latter.

If almost nobody voted, then the only people who showed up -- probably single-issue nutters and Baron Adams's crew -- would get to decide the fate of the rest of us.

Your call on whether that's a good idea.

PomBear

On the issue:

Fianna Fail reduced to prayer while the State is on its knees
With a general election coming, the Soldiers of Destiny are set to suffer in this life, not the next, writes Ronan Fanning

SATIRISTS are best equipped to cope with yet another mind-bogglingly de- pressing week. Black humour is the most appropriate response to the exhortations of Minister for Social Protection Eamon O Cuiv on the need for prayer because "not everything is in the control of the Government" -- an admission about which the voters in Donegal South West scarcely needed reminding.

"Over the next three weeks, there are three things we have to do," he proclaimed on Highland Radio: the Budget, the four-year plan and "try and pray that this is the end of it". Only Myles na gCopaleen could have done justice to such guff: "A Dose of Prayer is Yer Only Man!"

Meanwhile, Fr Carroll, a curate in Barnstown, Co Wexford, echoed the O Cuiv remedy by reading at Mass last Sunday a prayer of his own composition, that began: "God, our Father, continue to make your presence felt among us at this moment in history."

Mr O Cuiv's panacea duly surfaced in the Dail on Thursday in an unsavoury squabble with Labour's Joan Burton, whom he accused of ridiculing both religion and prayer. Fine Gael's Fergus O'Dowd spoke most sense when he suggested that it was "the wrath of the people the minister should fear before the wrath of God".

And so it came to pass that Fianna Fail quivered under the lash of the people's wrath when the votes were counted in Stranorlar on Friday. Nor will the historical resonances between Pearse Doherty's stunning triumph and Sinn Fein's celebrated by-election victory in 1917 -- when Mr O Cuiv's grandfather, Eamon de Valera, won in Clare -- have escaped Fianna Fail.

But credit where credit is due. Mr O Cuiv at least proved that he was a chip off the old block at Tuesday's cabinet meeting when he urged the Taoiseach to go to Aras an Uachtarain to seek an immediate dissolution of the Dail.

Prayerful propensities apart, Mr O Cuiv is more mindful of the health of the body politic than his pusillanimous colleagues as they cling to their State cars like limpets to a rock.

He at least recognises that the longer an election is postponed, the greater the damage both to Irish parliamentary democracy and the economy.

For the Greens' dramatic announcement that they want an election not now but in January has further destabilised an already disastrous situation. They have pressed the switch of the starting stalls for a campaign which, if Mr Cowen has his way, could conceivably drag on until March.

Although all parties are now in election mode, the transformation has been most evident in the case of the Greens. Mr Gormley shamelessly turned his speech at the

launch of the National Recovery Plan into a party political broadcast.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/fianna-fail-reduced-to-prayer-while-the-state-is-on-its-knees-2439372.html

InReality

@OP
I don't like religion at all , but kenny was just using a common phrase of sympathy. I'm surprised you wouldn't take it as such.

InReality

Reilly616 wrote: »

I've seen this and also thought that FG were being rather vague. I think Labour are clearest concerning their ideas on religion. I'm a Norris man myself, but it'd be interesting if Michael D. Higgins got the Presidency. As far as I know, he's an atheist, but would have to swear a religious oath before taking office.

Might be he could affirm like you do in swearing for jury duty. I don't know though.

Reilly616

InReality wrote: »

Might be he could affirm like you do in swearing for jury duty. I don't know though.

It's not a possibility. He can say it in English or Irish, but that's the only choice. It's the same for Judges.

DeVore

More people will die on our roads AND on gurnies in our hospitals this weekend.

#justsayin'

DeV.

Reilly616

DeVore wrote: »

More people will die on our roads AND on gurnies in our hospitals this weekend.

#justsayin'

DeV.

More people than what?

meditraitor

As a member of the Christian democrat party (and bedfellows with baroso) is FG not a party of regression rather than a solution in our wonderful country?
The Catholic church has been the cause of so may a broken lives with all the abuse(both power and physical) in our lovely country and FG are supporters of this.

HarryPotter41

meditraitor wrote: »

As a member of the Christian democrat party (and bedfellows with baroso) is FG not a party of regression rather than a solution in our wonderful country?
The Catholic church has been the cause of so may a broken lives with all the abuse(both power and physical) in our lovely country and FG are supporters of this.

Jesus, tenuous assumption at best.

meditraitor

HarryPotter41 wrote: »

Jesus, tenuous assumption at best.

Ye would think so! but look into their politics?

HarryPotter41

meditraitor wrote: »

Ye would think so! but look into their politics?

I know their politics, and that is tenuous to the point of being nonsense. And I am a FFer!

Killer Pigeon

meditraitor wrote: »

As a member of the Christian democrat party (and bedfellows with baroso) is FG not a party of regression rather than a solution in our wonderful country?
The Catholic church has been the cause of so may a broken lives with all the abuse(both power and physical) in our lovely country and FG are supporters of this.

We should get Cromwell after them, he'll sort the Papists out.

HarryPotter41

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

We should get Cromwell after them, he'll sort the Papists out.

Dunno would he? He must be in an awful condition by now, wouldn't be up to much.

Thread title changed to be less tabloid-y

Reilly616

Christian democracy just means slightly conservative, slightly right-leaning. The term is historical, not based on the religious beliefs of party members.

meditraitor

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

We should get Cromwell after them, he'll sort the Papists out.

Are they or are not Christian Democrats?