Agóid Chiúin / Silent Protest.

deise go deo

Hi All.



It is Enda Kenny's Policy to Remove Irish as a Core Subject for the LC and make it optional. We in Cumann Gaelach UL Believe that if this policy was put in place, it would cause serious harm to the Future of the Irish Language. See the link for more information on the issue.

Kenny's move on Irish


To demonstrate our oppisition to this policy, We will be holding a 'silent protest' in Arthurs Quay Park at 12pm this Monday.
For the silent protest we will have red tape over our mouths as a symbol for the loss of our language should this policy be put into practice.

This protest is being run in tandem with another protest in Dublin outside the Dáil.

Facebook, Agóid Chiúin

I would Like to invite anyone interested in the future of the Irish language to come along and take part in the Protest.


Is Mise Le Meas
Christóir Ó Faoláin
Uachtaráin, Cumann Gaelach UL.

liammur

deise go deo wrote: »

Hi All.



It is Enda Kenny's Policy to Remove Irish as a Core Subject for the LC and make it optional. We in Cumann Gaelach UL Believe that if this policy was put in place, it would cause serious harm to the Future of the Irish Language. See the link for more information on the issue.

Kenny's move on Irish


To demonstrate our oppisition to this policy, We will be holding a 'silent protest' in Arthurs Quay Park at 12pm this Monday.
For the silent protest we will have red tape over our mouths as a symbol for the loss of our language should this policy be put into practice.

This protest is being run in tandem with another protest in Dublin outside the Dáil.

Facebook, Agóid Chiúin

I would Like to invite anyone interested in the future of the Irish language to come along and take part in the Protest.


Is Mise Le Meas
Christóir Ó Faoláin
Uachtaráin, Cumann Gaelach UL.

On the contrary, I believe it would be a good idea to axe irish and make business compulsory. Unfortunately, Irish has no value and is of no use to graduates/school leavers.

bmarley

What a good idea - time for change, maybe revamp whole leaving certificate while they're at it. Irish is such a waste of time for those who have no interest in learning it. It's also taught wrong in all schools with little emphasis on oral language. It may be suited to those who can afford grinds and have hundreds to spend on gaeltacht education but is not suited to all students. It is of no use to anyone and should not be a requirement for third level. Other languages have more value. Let's not be so patriotic.

deise go deo

liammur wrote: »

On the contrary, I believe it would be a good idea to axe irish and make business compulsory. Unfortunately, Irish has no value and is of no use to graduates/school leavers.

I think the Students studying Irish in UL might disagree with you. If Endas Policy goes ahead, The Irish language department will be more than likely to close down in a few years.

It would be such a waste kill off the Irish language at a time when it is growing.

flutered

over hyped over costed over funded.

amiable

Hi OP, just want to play devil's advocate here and ask you how would you feel if the majority of people in the country supported the idea Enda Kenny has?
I'm not advocating it. I just wanted to put the question to you.:)

deise go deo

amiable wrote: »

Hi OP, just want to play devil's advocate here and ask you how would you feel if the majority of people in the country supported the idea Enda Kenny have?
I'm not advocating it. I just wanted to put the question to you.:)

Annoyed, It would mean the end of Irish as a living language. However, I dont think the majority support Enda's Policy.

thesimpsons

bmarley wrote: »

What a good idea - time for change, maybe revamp whole leaving certificate while they're at it. Irish is such a waste of time for those who have no interest in learning it. It's also taught wrong in all schools with little emphasis on oral language. It may be suited to those who can afford grinds and have hundreds to spend on gaeltacht education but is not suited to all students. It is of no use to anyone and should not be a requirement for third level. Other languages have more value. Let's not be so patriotic.

I believe that from next year onwards the Leaving Cert will have 40% of total marks for the oral section.

There are alot of subjects taught in schools which students have no interesting learning but surely shouldn't be the criteria for its dismissal. The idea that it is of no use to anyone is highly debatable as learning and becoming proficient at one other language leads quickly to abilities in other foreign languages. With the gaelscoileanna education system growing so rapidly in the last 20 years, it is again highly questionable for it to be dropped. 20 yrs ago Limerick had only the one Colaiste and maybe one gaelscoil. Now there are 2 Gaelcoláiste and approx 6 gaelscoileanna within the city area. Should higher level maths be dropped cos alot of students aren't interested in learning it - hardly !

The Snipe

OP, I'm still a secondary school LC student; and I struggle with Irish, and because of this I'm fearing failing it as it doesn't come natural to me, so in my opinion and in the opinion of most of those who do strugle with languages, it is a good idea to make it optional for the LC however making it compolsuary in JC would still keep it somewhat alive, and can keep the interest if there is interest. Just my input.

amiable

deise go deo wrote: »

Annoyed, It would mean the end of Irish as a living language. However, I dont think the majority support Enda's Policy.

I disagree. I don't think it would mean the end of the Irish language myself.
I also have to disagree and say i think the vast majority of people would agree with Enda Kenny.

RonMexico

If they keep the current system in place it will probably do more to kill off the language.

Having had to do it for the LC, I ended up hating the language for a long long time.

It would be better to make it optional AND revamp the way it is taught.

liammur

deise go deo wrote: »

I think the Students studying Irish in UL might disagree with you. If Endas Policy goes ahead, The Irish language department will be more than likely to close down in a few years.

It would be such a waste kill off the Irish language at a time when it is growing.

There will always be some casualties in decisions made. I would take no pleasure in seeing Irish downgraded, but I feel as a people we have to move on and become more competitive in areas such as computing etc.

In fact, I would like to see most other languages in europe downgraded as well, and make English the european-wide language for the future generations.

btw, there is a thread in the politics section i think on irish the irish language, you may want to inform people on that about your protest.

deise go deo

amiable wrote: »

I disagree. I don't think it would mean the end of the Irish language myself.
I also have to disagree and say i think the vast majority of people would agree with Enda Kenny.

Well you are entitled to your opinion, as are we, and we will be Voiceing (So to speak) it on Monday.

source

I have to say, I agree with the idea that it not be compulsary. I went to An Modh Scoil back when it was the only Gealscoil in Limerick, it was also when there was no male Gaelcolaiste in Limerick.

When I moved from primary to secondary school, I had massive problems in every class but Irish. which meant my grades dropped dramatically when I moved schools. I then had to work to bolster my other subjects which meant my Irish suffered. In the end i had to drop from honours Irish to pass Irish for my leaving cert in order to get a pass grade.

If I had failed Irish I would have failed my entire leaving cert and would not have been offered a college place, which I believe is very unfair. If you're not good at picking up languages (like many people aren't). Then you get punished by being forced to fail your leaving cert or pay ridiculous amounts for grinds.

I think the suggestion made above by XiledSniper is a very good and fair one, Compulsory to Junior cert with a revamped teaching method which focuses on people being able to speak the language, not being able to read a novel and discuss its finer points, discuss poetry etc etc. There would be a lot more people with a working knowledge of the language keeping it alive. Then you don't have to have it compulsory for the leaving cert this will help people progress with their learning without being in fear of failing Irish and ruining their chances of getting in to college.

Also may I add, that I do not hate the language, and my children when I have them will be taught the language and will have Irish spoken to them just because I want my children to know the language. However I will also ensure that they have a European language (possibly French) as this will be far more useful to them.

deise go deo

XiledSniper wrote: »

OP, I'm still a secondary school LC student; and I struggle with Irish, and because of this I'm fearing failing it as it doesn't come natural to me, so in my opinion and in the opinion of most of those who do strugle with languages, it is a good idea to make it optional for the LC however making it compolsuary in JC would still keep it somewhat alive, and can keep the interest if there is interest. Just my input.

Thanks, Our opinion is that the best way forward is to Split Irish in secondary school into two subjects,

One that would focus on spoken Irish and would be compulsory till the LC.
The second would focus on Irish Literature and would be optional.

There are problems in the way Irish is taught now, There is no doubting that. But making Irish optional will not fix those problems.

The Snipe

deise go deo wrote: »

Thanks, Our opinion is that the best way forward is to Split Irish in secondary school into two subjects,

One that would focus on spoken Irish and would be compulsory till the LC.
The second would focus on Irish Literature and would be optional.

There are problems in the way Irish is taught now, There is no doubting that. But making Irish optional will not fix those problems.

With the new course in LC Irish in this year for 4th/5th years, it is a lot easier, however it is Irish in Primary Schools that should really be assessed, as it was here where I personally wasn't thought it very much, for various reasons (Could be due to the teacher wasn't a fan of Irish themselves), which can make the ability to use it later in life (Second level) a lot more difficult.

deise go deo

XiledSniper wrote: »

With the new course in LC Irish in this year for 4th/5th years, it is a lot easier, however it is Irish in Primary Schools that should really be assessed, as it was here where I personally wasn't thought it very much, for various reasons (Could be due to the teacher wasn't a fan of Irish themselves), which can make the ability to use it later in life (Second level) a lot more difficult.

I agree, I think the suggestion put forward by Conradh na Gaeilge would be the best solution here.

A second subject like Art, PE etc should be taught through Irish, This would mean that kids would have experience useing Irish rather than just learning It, And nothing would be lost in terms of class time for other subjects.

amiable

deise go deo wrote: »

Well you are entitled to your opinion, as are we, and we will be Voiceing (So to speak) it on Monday.

I didn't say you aren't entitled to voice your opinion.
I admire you for it. I see you as the vocal minority

amiable

deise go deo wrote: »

I agree, I think the suggestion put forward by Conradh na Gaeilge would be the best solution here.

A second subject like Art, PE etc should be taught through Irish, This would mean that kids would have experience useing Irish rather than just learning It, And nothing would be lost in terms of class time for other subjects.

Which would in turn make it harder for people who are not good at the Irish language to train to teach Art and PE etc

osarusan

deise go deo wrote: »

A second subject like Art, PE etc should be taught through Irish, This would mean that kids would have experience useing Irish rather than just learning It, And nothing would be lost in terms of class time for other subjects.

In order for that to work, the teacher and every student in the class would have to have a high level of proficiency in Irish. And we know this is not the case.

If Irish is a growing language, it is certainly not because of what happens in secondary school. A few years ago, a panel from some concerned group of academics (it may have been the Irish Association for Applied Linguistics) sent a letter to the department of Education, highlighting the fact that the methods used to teach Irish in schools flew in the face of practically every theory of language acquisition. They never received a reply. In fact, when introducing language support classes for foreign children not proficient in English, the department, after having received this letter, simply copied the methodology used to teach Irish for the English language support classes.

deise go deo

amiable wrote: »

Which would in turn make it harder for people who are not good at the Irish language to train to teach Art and PE etc

Teaching Irish is required of a primary school teacher anyway, doing a second thing in Irish dosent make it any harder.

Bicycle

If people are forced to do something, they will resent it. If, however, people do something voluntarily, they will internalise it and love it much more.

I'd prefer to have my children make a decision to voluntarily do Irish and love the language rather than the current issue of being forced to do it.

How does the OP feel about the increasing numbers of students in both primary and secondary school who are obtaining exemptions from the language because of issues such as dyslexia and dyspraxia?

To get things into perspective, my younger two children are entitled to exemptions from the language because of Specific Learning Difficulties but I haven't activated it because I believe the language is important for them. But they are far more enthusiastic about the language because they know that they can give it up if they are finding it too much of a struggle.

We live in a democracy. Surely we should be entitled to choose which subjects we do in our state exams.

jonski

I have 3 teenagers , all of them learning Irish since they first started school . All 3 of them hate it .

My oldest just did her leaving cert last June , after transition year she took up Spanish , two years of Spanish versus fourteen years of Irish and she ended up way better at Spanish . And it is pretty much the same story with my other two and I would imagine a lot of other parents on here would say the same .

Something drastic has to be done , nothing has really changed since I went to school and even back then my parents were giving out about it .

This policy might not be the right one but atleast someone is going to do something .

talkingclock

Why not make Shelta mandatory? That would keep an almost dead language (spoken by a minority of people at least) alive, too...

black & white

I agree with it being abolished as a compulsory subject. As far as I remember, all my 3 kids spent more time in primary school doing Irish than they did maths. Absolutely crazy way to go. The sooner Kenny does this the better.

And to agree with a previous poster about Spanish, I did Irish up to LC and have spent a few summers in Spain and I can speak far more Spanish.

Roadend

Some people have great difficulty with maths and hate it too, should we remove that as a core subject. If this is the basis for making things non-compulsary then its nothing short of a complete joke.
I think its a sign of modern times when people no longer have any interest in their culture and heritage, a sad sad sign. Irish language is a big part of that and to say otherwise is wrong. But hey we 've got xboxes and cheap american and uk trash tv to occupy us and none of them are broadcast in Irish so why bother with it.
I'm annoyed at myself for not trying harder with Irish in school, sure the way it was taught was archaic but I didn't apply myself enough either. New teaching methods for irish along the lines of how they teach european languages would be a start.

Roadend

black & white wrote: »

I agree with it being abolished as a compulsory subject. As far as I remember, all my 3 kids spent more time in primary school doing Irish than they did maths. Absolutely crazy way to go. The sooner Kenny does this the better.

And to agree with a previous poster about Spanish, I did Irish up to LC and have spent a few summers in Spain and I can speak far more Spanish.

Were you sat in the classroom with them or are you just peddling nonsense. I never spent more time on Irish than maths in primary school.

deise go deo

Bicycle wrote: »

If people are forced to do something, they will resent it. If, however, people do something voluntarily, they will internalise it and love it much more.

This was the argument that the Labour Government used in England. They were wrong.

Bicycle

deise go deo wrote: »

This was the argument that the Labour Government used in England. They were wrong.

I wouldn't have thought there was an issue with language in England!! But I do know native Welsh and Scots Gaelic speakers and they will use their language more readily because it wasn't forced on them


I would be interested in seeing a rigorous longitudinal study done on Irish with two groups of children, one of whom were taught in the current "forced" situation and the other in a voluntary situation.

I'm still convinced that those not forced into studying the Irish would end up with a far stronger grá for it.

And to the poster who commented on Maths - I'm of the opinion that this should become optional some time in second level as well. I don't know about you but I really never saw the purpose of theorems as part of the process of life-long enlightenment.

I still argue, we are in a democracy. Let us/our children choose the subjects they want to do for Leaving Cert. And this applied to subjects that are mandatory as well as those that aren't. For example, a hypothetical Irish born person MUST do Irish in the Leaving Certificate unless they have an exemption but they cannot do Dutch in the Leaving Certificate unless they have Dutch connections (this situation pertained a few years ago when I was trying to work out LC options for my daughter and I have no reason to believe it still does not pertain).

Taceom

deise go deo wrote: »

The Irish language department will be more than likely to close down in a few years.

I don't think keeping a language dept. open should be relevant.

dr.fuzzenstein

liammur wrote: »

On the contrary, I believe it would be a good idea to axe irish and make business compulsory. Unfortunately, Irish has no value and is of no use to graduates/school leavers.

Irish is a nice hobby and a quaint way to remember the days of yore.
These days German, French, Spanish, etc... will serve you better and doesn't limit your business dealing to English speaking countries, a sad blind spot in the entire Irish psyche, as far as most people are concerned the world consists of the US, UK Ireland and maybe Australia.
And learn a bit of Chinese while you're at it. You will need it in the future when they own us and the rest of the world.

allimac

No subject should be compulsary at leaving cert level.

krudler

I spent, what, 13 or so years "learning" Irish in school, cant string a sentence of it together, spent 3 years learning french and can read and speak far more of it. The way Irish is taught needs to be completely scrapped, learning poems and pigeon phrases does not teach you how to use a language.

hoorsmelt

deise go deo wrote: »

Hi All.



It is Enda Kenny's Policy to Remove Irish as a Core Subject for the LC and make it optional. We in Cumann Gaelach UL Believe that if this policy was put in place, it would cause serious harm to the Future of the Irish Language. See the link for more information on the issue.

Kenny's move on Irish


To demonstrate our oppisition to this policy, We will be holding a 'silent protest' in Arthurs Quay Park at 12pm this Monday.
For the silent protest we will have red tape over our mouths as a symbol for the loss of our language should this policy be put into practice.

This protest is being run in tandem with another protest in Dublin outside the Dáil.

Facebook, Agóid Chiúin

I would Like to invite anyone interested in the future of the Irish language to come along and take part in the Protest.


Is Mise Le Meas
Christóir Ó Faoláin
Uachtaráin, Cumann Gaelach UL.

Dia daoibh Christóir,

would it be possible for ye to do this on campus as well as alot of students might be put of by having to go into town.

The Snipe

I was discussing this with my Irish Teacher earlier, and she agrees it is a much better idea to have it optional for the LC only, however at that it does need to be completely revised.

deise go deo

hoorsmelt wrote: »

Dia daoibh Christóir,

would it be possible for ye to do this on campus as well as alot of students might be put of by having to go into town.

Well we are planning on having Mary I and LIT involved aswell. And we are hoping to get some people from the City to turn out for it as well.

We could get to gether in UL for a bit before we go into town though.

Raiser

It is an absolute disgrace that our Teachers and educational system cannot produce more than a handful of Irish Speakers after a full 11 or 12 years of ridiculous, lazy, uninspired, misguided, shockingly inappropriate attempts.

- I can't make head nor tale of An Nuacht on the Radio and I have a 1st class honours Degree, so I do have some bit of a spark between my ears......

Also what sort of nonsense is it for Families to be getting grants to speak Irish at home etc.?

- I'm sure they have a grand auld gaire at us as they spend our cash - I've met recipients of this who thought it was a joke, a nice little earner, but still a joke......

black & white

Roadend wrote: »

Were you sat in the classroom with them or are you just peddling nonsense. I never spent more time on Irish than maths in primary school.

Don't know about you but I have always taken a keen interest in my childrens education. I KNEW what they did every day at primary school because I checked their work and homework and had regular contact with teachers.

I resent your assumption.

Roadend

black & white wrote: »

Don't know about you but I have always taken a keen interest in my childrens education. I KNEW what they did every day at primary school because I checked their work and homework and had regular contact with teachers.

I resent your assumption.

A 2 page essay could be viewed as more homework than solving 10 maths problems. Doesn't mean you are spending more time learning one over the other. You still haven't proven they spent more time on one than the other to be frank.

black & white

Roadend wrote: »

A 2 page essay could be viewed as more homework than solving 10 maths problems. Doesn't mean you are spending more time learning one over the other. You still haven't proven they spent more time on one than the other to be frank.

Don't need to prove anything to you. I know what my kids did at school and that's enough for me.

Roadend

black & white wrote: »

Don't need to prove anything to you. I know what my kids did at school and that's enough for me.

Well good, becuase you haven't proved a thing

deise go deo

hoorsmelt wrote: »

Dia daoibh Christóir,

would it be possible for ye to do this on campus as well as alot of students might be put of by having to go into town.

Ok, We will be meeting up outside the SU at 11:30 before going into Arthurs Quay Park.

DarkJager

I really don't see what the point of a "silent protest" is? Last time I checked, the majority of this country spoke english so its not really making any kind of point. In fact, its just going to be a crowd of people walking through town without saying a word, with red tape stuck over their mouths.

Its great you love the language so much, but you need to understand that people want the choice to be there. There are far more functional and useful world languages that can genuinely aid students after school in their professional lives, than wasting thousands of hours forcing them through something that is really just for nostalgia. As previous posters have said, some of us spent ~12 years learning it and can't even string a sentence together. I remember more German (that I only learned for 4 years) than I do of Irish. I hated the subject in school, and even then I knew I'd never have a use for it and it was just wasting my time.

Good luck with the "protest" anyway, but I'll be quite happy for Fine Gael to make it optional when they get elected. I'm pretty sure 95% of the country would agree too.

dr.fuzzenstein

I think the whole idea of "Help, we're being silenced!" is silly.
It's not like Enda Kenny is going to personally shoot everyone in the head who speaks a word of Irish, it's hardly Cromwellian and hardly like banning the language.
It's just that as a supposedly "live" language Irish has less practical application and relevance than, for example, Latin or even Klingon.
In an international context English is the best thing that could ever have happened to the Irish, you now have a language that is spoken worldwide, it is the de facto standard for international communications.
In a world that is becoming more and more globalised you have to look forward, not back.
It is crucial to have English, another European language (two would be better) and, in the future, Chinese will come in handy.
Culture is hugely important, but when you have nothing else it's no good to you.
You need money for vanity projects and money will only come to the Irish if they are up to date, cutting edge, multilingual and fully aware of what's going on in the world.
And a dead language is not much use there.

whatdoicare

What we need to be learning is Chinese, Dutch and Japanese - instead of wasting our time learning a language that has as much use to us as learning Elvish. It's pretty and cool to say you speak it but that's as far as it goes.

bmarley

All the gaelscoil's that have sprung up throughout the country over the last few years are not really proof that parent's want their children to learn through the Irish language but are indicative of parents who wish to separate their children so that they will not be held back educationally by those from other cultural backgrounds. Maybe those who learn through Irish during primary are much more fluent when it comes to the Leaving Certificate. Personally, I feel the way in which Irish is taught in primary schools is ridiculous. Time to get rid of the text books and the rote learning and focus more on the listening and speaking. Having learned Irish from the age of 4 to higher leaving cert standard and French from first year to L.C., I would be more competent in French. If Irish was to be made compulsory for the L.C. would it still be a requirement for colleges of further education as that would defeat its purpose?

deise go deo

DarkJager wrote: »

I really don't see what the point of a "silent protest" is? Last time I checked, the majority of this country spoke english so its not really making any kind of point. In fact, its just going to be a crowd of people walking through town without saying a word, with red tape stuck over their mouths.

Its great you love the language so much, but you need to understand that people want the choice to be there. There are far more functional and useful world languages that can genuinely aid students after school in their professional lives, than wasting thousands of hours forcing them through something that is really just for nostalgia. As previous posters have said, some of us spent ~12 years learning it and can't even string a sentence together. I remember more German (that I only learned for 4 years) than I do of Irish. I hated the subject in school, and even then I knew I'd never have a use for it and it was just wasting my time.

Good luck with the "protest" anyway, but I'll be quite happy for Fine Gael to make it optional when they get elected. I'm pretty sure 95% of the country would agree too.

It dosent seam so.

61% in favour of compulsory Irish

The greatst majority of those in Favour of Irish staying as a Core subject for the LC are the those between 15 - 24.

jonski

deise go deo wrote: »

It dosent seam so.

61% in favour of compulsory Irish

The greatst majority of those in Favour of Irish staying as a Core subject for the LC are the those between 15 - 24.

I am shocked by that report , I asked my three teenagers after reading this thread the other day and all three of them agreed it shouldn't be compulsory .

Insect Overlord

The plural of anecdote is not data.

/devil's advocate

dr.fuzzenstein

If I had kids I would move to another country with a proper schooling system (Germany, Sweden, etc...) so they would learn something useful and not be forced to learn a language that is nothing but a vanity project for a bunch of people who live in the 15th century and want to force their medieval world view upon everyone else.
I hope I'm not scaring you out of your slippers here, but out there is a world that thrives on communication, technology and commerce.
The real skills are science, modern and living languages, computer programming, business, engineering, trade, etc... to name but a few.
If Ireland wants to survive it should make all education free and accessible to anyone, something that FF wants to prevent, along with universal healthcare (Health and education for profit are worse than communism).
At the moment the current generation is being sold down the river in order to pay the banks off who got us into this mess in the first place.
If all people can see is "oh, we have to force everyone to speak Irish", this country will go the way of many other banana republics that where unable to see the bigger picture and concentrated on irrelevant nonsense.

DarkJager

deise go deo wrote: »

It dosent seam so.

61% in favour of compulsory Irish

The greatst majority of those in Favour of Irish staying as a Core subject for the LC are the those between 15 - 24.

Yes, but remember these surveys are only carried out among 500-1000 respondents. That means absolutely nothing compared to the actual population of this country.