Why bother?

LegacyUser

With the emergence of cohabitation, longterm relationships, ect ect, what is there for marriage to recommend itself? For a guy, all there's all the benefits of marriage available now with none of the responsibilities. And there's very little social pressure on guys to take the "next step", people nowadays don't like to be seen as interfering (a good thing, btw!).
So, other than being a romantic&/making the gf happy, why would any guy bother proposing? Ie: what incentive is left?

Ickle Magoo

As there are several references to guys and what and why guys do things, moved from tLL to tCG. :cool:

Odaise Gaelach

I'm a little puzzled at your wording, "now with none of the responsibilities". You make it sound as if cohabitation and long-term relationships don't infer the same responsibilites; as in, a partner can just up and leave at a moment's notice.

In that case: the legal protection of marriage would be one reason.

The second, and most compelling to my mind, would be the romance of it. Nothing wrong with being romantic.

petebricquette

putaringonit wrote: »

With the emergence of cohabitation, longterm relationships, ect ect, what is there for marriage to recommend itself? For a guy, all there's all the benefits of marriage available now with none of the responsibilities. And there's very little social pressure on guys to take the "next step", people nowadays don't like to be seen as interfering (a good thing, btw!).
So, other than being a romantic&/making the gf happy, why would any guy bother proposing? Ie: what incentive is left?

Purely for the romance I suppose! But there's also a tax incentive I believe. You can do cool things like combine tax credits and such.

tbh

putaringonit wrote: »

why would any guy bother proposing? Ie: what incentive is left?

Because i wanted to stand up in front of my family and friends and express, formally and publicly, that I love my girlfriend (now wife) so much that I want to commit myself to her for the rest of my life. It was nothing to do with making the g/f happy and everything to do with making me happy. The fact that she felt the same way was handy tho

OldGoat

As above ^^^ - and calling her 'wife' is less cringworthy/cumbersome then: The other half, the better half, the oul ball and chain, partner, girlfriend, lover.

Count Duckula

I've always liked the idea of marriage, though in an entirely non-religious sense. I just think it's utterly romantic to essentially swear your lives to one another.

I think it's a bit of a misnomer to suggest that it's guys who are being sworn off it now by society's acceptance of non-married long-term couples; in my experience there are just as many women unwilling to take that step when they know they'll be just as happy unmarried nowadays. The stereotype of the man with cold-feet having to be beaten into proposing by his desperate girlfriend is archaic.

That's not to say that marriage can't still be a wonderful thing, but people should no longer expect it from a partner as there are plenty of people out there who'll never want to get married no matter how in love they are. I think some find it hard to reconcile the idea that you can still be completely in love with your partner yet have no intention of ever marrying them.

That's even more poignant from a female point of view, when you consider that traditionally marriage was a way of passing possession of the woman from her father to her new husband (think of the father walking her down the aisle to "hand her over".) In these - thankfully - free days, many women don't feel the need to marry at all, particularly when the ceremony and very institution of marriage is a holdover from the days when they were heavily oppressed. That being the case, why would they want to taint their relationship with it?

Now I'm not saying every woman and man thinks that way - far from it - but I can certainly understand that viewpoint, even if I don't completely agree with it. But I'm one of many people out there who is in a long-term relationship with a partner who has no interest in marriage, yet I love dearly. Which is something we just have to accept, because at the end of it all is a few lines said in front of your family really worth jeopardising your future happiness?

metrovelvet

I can see why there may be no ostensible motivations. However marriage still holds huge symbolic power for both the couple and the community because of its social contracts, especially if there are children involved because it not only provides security for the couple but for their families as well.

I say this as a single parent, where both sides [families] feel insecure because either side can pull out at anytime as that social contract is not in place.

folan

cause im an old romantic at heart.

sure why bother with anything!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Gunsfortoys

I don't see the big deal to be honest.

I find that getting married proves absolutely nothing in the long term and people will still be unhappy and/or bored in about 20 years of being married.

I have to say in my lifetime I have never seen a happy marriage but I have seen happy long-term relationships and find there seems to be a control element involved with marriage. The financial burden is a lot to take as well.

I would hope a GF of mine wouldn't be as materialistic or attention seeking as to need a fancy wedding day etc to know that I want to be with her.

I would rather spend 20,000 on a round the world trip with her than a wedding.

tbh

Gunsfortoys wrote: »

I don't see the big deal to be honest.

I find that getting married proves absolutely nothing in the long term and people will still be unhappy and/or bored in about 20 years of being married.

I have to say in my lifetime I have never seen a happy marriage but I have seen happy long-term relationships and find there seems to be a control element involved with marriage. The financial burden is a lot to take as well.

I would hope a GF of mine wouldn't be as materialistic or attention seeking as to need a fancy wedding day etc to know that I want to be with her.

I would rather spend 20,000 on a round the world trip with her than a wedding.

there you go you see? if we were all the same it'd be a boring auld world.

mood

Gunsfortoys wrote: »

I don't see the big deal to be honest.

I find that getting married proves absolutely nothing in the long term and people will still be unhappy and/or bored in about 20 years of being married.

I have to say in my lifetime I have never seen a happy marriage but I have seen happy long-term relationships and find there seems to be a control element involved with marriage. The financial burden is a lot to take as well.

I would hope a GF of mine wouldn't be as materialistic or attention seeking as to need a fancy wedding day etc to know that I want to be with her.

I would rather spend 20,000 on a round the world trip with her than a wedding.

Female here. The majority of married couples I know are very happy maybe that is why I believe in marriage.

Why do you see marriage as a financial burden?

And you don't need to send 20k on a wedding to get married!

Logical Fallacy

putaringonit wrote: »

what incentive is left?

Committing yourself completely to the person that you love.

It's not supposed to be about "incentives".

No wonder romance is dead.

pragmatic1

Wouldnt be for me. Could not spend the rest of my life with one woman. People say lifes short, its not.

Darlughda

tbh wrote: »

Because i wanted to stand up in front of my family and friends and express, formally and publicly, that I love my girlfriend (now wife) so much that I want to commit myself to her for the rest of my life. It was nothing to do with making the g/f happy and everything to do with making me happy. The fact that she felt the same way was handy tho

This is the only reason I would get married.

pragmatic1 wrote: »

Wouldnt be for me. Could not spend the rest of my life with one woman. People say lifes short, its not.

That's fair enough. But are you this honest with women though?

IrishEyes19

Gunsfortoys wrote: »

I don't see the big deal to be honest.

I find that getting married proves absolutely nothing in the long term and people will still be unhappy and/or bored in about 20 years of being married.

I have to say in my lifetime I have never seen a happy marriage but I have seen happy long-term relationships and find there seems to be a control element involved with marriage. The financial burden is a lot to take as well.

I would hope a GF of mine wouldn't be as materialistic or attention seeking as to need a fancy wedding day etc to know that I want to be with her.

I would rather spend 20,000 on a round the world trip with her than a wedding.

Jesus, my parents must be some actors so, they've well exceded 2o years and look pretty happy, and not bored :rolleyes:

A bit too general there stating people will be bored after 20 years.

@OP, I like the idea of marriage, however I know its just not for some people. I do agree there is a trend now of not getting married, but thats really still 50/50 with different people in my opinion, there'll always be a tradition of marriage.

Marriage for me anyway is as other posters have said, making a spiritual commitment to the person you hope and want to spend the rest your life with. Plus I would like to be the man I loves, wife, its as simple as that.

putaringonit

putaringonit wrote: »

With the emergence of cohabitation, longterm relationships, ect ect, what is there for marriage to recommend itself? For a guy, all there's all the benefits of marriage available now with none of the responsibilities. And there's very little social pressure on guys to take the "next step", people nowadays don't like to be seen as interfering (a good thing, btw!).
So, other than being a romantic&/making the gf happy, why would any guy bother proposing? Ie: what incentive is left?

Legal rights, all the legal rights

plus it's still romantic :pac:

mood

Some people I know were always saying they would never get married but that all changed when they meet the right person.

Malari

mood wrote: »

Some people I know were always saying they would never get married but that all changed when they meet the right person.

And some people always thought that they would probably get married one day, but met the right person and realised it wasn't necessary

mood

Malari wrote: »

And some people always thought that they would probably get married one day, but met the right person and realised it wasn't necessary

Yes. Each to there own (or whatever that saying is!).

Jesus Wept

I can't think of many popular things that I find less romantic.
Also, the cohabitation laws are nutso.

Logical Fallacy

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

Committing yourself completely to the person that you love.

It's not supposed to be about "incentives".

No wonder romance is dead.

You do not need marriage to do that. That kind of commitment does not come from signing a piece of paper on one day. It comes from every action you perform in your entire life together and how every decision you make on what to do with your own life encompasses and includes your partner(s). Every plan you make for the future that has that person in it is a re-commitment more powerful than signing a new piece of paper every day for the rest of your life together.

Marriage is not an option open to me given my situation of living with 2 girls not 1. I feel no sense of loss in this, nor do I feel myself any less committed to them than I would if I had a signed piece of paper to show for it. We have found legal ways to ensure we have all the same next of kin rights, inheritance rights and child guardianship rights as anyone else in a “normal” marriage.

Not that I think marriage should be done away with or any such thing. I just see no personal need for it. It is becoming increasingly clear that the meaning of marriage, and what it entails, requires more and more each day some serious overhaul and updating to match the ongoing changes in our society and family structures however.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Marriage is not an option open to me given my situation of living with 2 girls not 1. .

Do you do your best to bring this up in every single post?

shrewd

tbh wrote: »

Because i wanted to stand up in front of my family and friends and express, formally and publicly, that I love my girlfriend (now wife) so much that I want to commit myself to her for the rest of my life. It was nothing to do with making the g/f happy and everything to do with making me happy. The fact that she felt the same way was handy tho

you read my mind.

also, there's this sense of belonging..,maybe that's not the right word. it's just pleasant when she has take after your name

Gunsfortoys

mood wrote: »

Female here. The majority of married couples I know are very happy maybe that is why I believe in marriage.

Why do you see marriage as a financial burden?

And you don't need to send 20k on a wedding to get married!

I know I was just giving examples, fair play if the couples you know are happy but behind closed doors can mean a different story in my opinion.

It is a financial burden due to the cost of divorce if the marriage fails.

IrishEyes19 wrote: »

Jesus, my parents must be some actors so, they've well exceded 2o years and look pretty happy, and not bored :rolleyes:

A bit too general there stating people will be bored after 20 years.

No need to be condescending because my opinion differs to yours.

Like I said fair play to your parents but I have seen different.

bluewolf

bluewolf wrote: »

Do you do your best to bring this up in every single post?

You can worry about the content of your posts and I will concern myself with mine. I do not know what relevance it has for or to you anyway what I choose to add here. We each bring what we think we can offer to the posts we make on forums such as this, and it is the differences between us that lend to what we have to offer.

If we were all the same, there would be nothing to talk about, and no advice or insights to offer. We must focus on what makes us different and take that to the table to help, advise or comment on others. Our differences are what give us and what we have to say worth.

So yes, you are right, that this is one thing about me that differentiates me from most people and so it gives me something to add to a conversation, insight from a different direction of looking at things, that others may lack. I therefore mention it when I feel it relevant, which is far from “every single post”. Though given you can not see most of the posts I have made as they are on parts of this forum excluded from the search function, you have no idea what I say in “every single post”.

rolly1

Why bother indeed, sure the state marries you anyway after 5 years of living together or 2 if you have a kid:

Part 15 of this gives you all bills but none of the thrills!

Oh and even after paying all the bills, the mother can still up sticks and remove your child to another country without even telling you, if you are not a guardian.

See the Irish state likes to protect the money by default, but not the kids.

tbh

rolly1 wrote: »

See the Irish state likes to protect the money by default, but not the kids.

that's not the topic of this thread, and any further posts along these lines will be classed as off-topic

mikemac

Why bother? Tax credits :pac:

In the old days I'm told the tax year was April to April.
And April was the peak month for weddings, something to do with tax

My parents assured me it's true, I've heard it a few times actually.
I've no reason to doubt them

tbh

It's considered Bad luck to get married in may in some parts, that might have something to do with it as well.

Malari

tbh wrote: »

It's considered Bad luck to get married in may in some parts, that might have something to do with it as well.

Never heard that! What is the origin of that superstition?

mikemac

Marry in May, rue the day

If you set a date in May, it's guaranteed you'll have terrible weather on your wedding day
Or so goes the superstition anyway, it's a well known one in some areas

tbh

Malari wrote: »

Never heard that! What is the origin of that superstition?

from some website:

May, the start of summer, was dedicated to outdoor orgies (ie the summer festival Beltane), hardly the best way to begin married life! Queen Victoria is said to have banned her children from marrying in May, and Nineteenth Century Vicars were rushed of their feet on April 30th because Brides refused to marry during May.


my wedding day was april 25th, same for her parents and her grandparents (both sets). I'd never heard of it myself.

rolly1

tbh wrote: »

that's not the topic of this thread, and any further posts along these lines will be classed as off-topic

When my last post is read in full it is directly related to the op where the op stated:

Why bother?
With the emergence of cohabitation, longterm relationships, ect ect, what is there for marriage to recommend itself? For a guy, all there's all the benefits of marriage available now with none of the responsibilities.

I am just pointing out that if the relationship breaks down the long term cohabitee has, just like the married man, all of the responsibilities with none of the benefits; even worse these liabilities happen by a time default and not by a conscious choice like marriage.

The myth that cohabitation is a benefit only zone needs to be dispelled.

tbh

Fair enough - I accept that you weren't trying to derail the thread or anything, but by the same token, I don't want this thread to descend into a men vs women thread.

Reward

I have male friends that I love, but I wouldn't sign off on a bad contract with them.

Unless the goal is to have children, I don't see much point in it and its high risk for men. I know that hypergamy is a taboo subject but I'll say this anyway, I have a friend in family law and he says that when women come to him initiating a divorce they generally "expect to get everything, even the dog".

I have a friend who was having a renovation done on his house, when it was finished his wife initiated a divorce, she now lives in the house with the kids and builder that did the renovation. He rents a small apartment and gets to see his children every second weekend.

I know that we are not America, unfortunately we seems to lack research in many areas ...

(March 10) — American men are four times more likely than women to take their own lives. It’s a troubling phenomenon, rooted in such factors as genetics, upbringing and even career choice. But a growing body of research suggests that divorce is one of the major culprits in suicides among adult males.

Women, however, seem immune to the stress and sadness that can be wrought by the end of a marriage.
http://www.aolnews.com/2010/03/10/suicide-rate-greater-among-divorced-men-research-finds/

tbh

Reward, this is your last warning. You make one more comment claiming to represent the entire female or male population an you're gone from this forum, forever.

"women seem immune to the stress and sadness of the end of a marriage" - what an incredibly arrogant statement to make. I promise you, one way or the other, that's the last time you degrade this forum with that type of crap.

tbh

To clarify, I know that the statement was from another source.

Reward

Here is the full article.



(March 10) -- American men are four times more likely than women to take their own lives. It's a troubling phenomenon, rooted in such factors as genetics, upbringing and even career choice. But a growing body of research suggests that divorce is one of the major culprits in suicides among adult males.

Women, however, seem immune to the stress and sadness that can be wrought by the end of a marriage.

Dr. Justin Denney, a sociologist at the University of Colorado, is studying the relationship between family structure and suicide rates. He's using national data collected on over 1 million people, and their households, to pinpoint how family dynamics can precipitate, or protect against, suicide mortality.

Denney's research is the first to examine so many cases at a national level, but experts have been aware of the link between divorce and men's suicide risk for decades. According to a compilation of research published by JRank and confirmed by Denney, suicide rates are higher among divorced men, and lowest among those still married. Single men fall somewhere in between.

The impact of divorce on suicide is so strong, it can even be gleaned from international comparisons. Among industrialized nations, those with the highest divorce rates also have the highest suicide rates.

For example, a 2008 study out of the U.K. concluded that suicide and divorce rates saw parallel increases and a simultaneous peak in the late 1990s. Suicides then dropped while divorces did not, likely because of more intervention among teenage boys, the researchers speculated.

But divorce also tends to crop up more in regions that are susceptible to alcoholism, drug abuse and widespread migratory tendencies -- oil and gas boom towns, for example. So suicide rates might be less about divorce, and more about a confluence of precipitating factors -- factors that are clearly taking a greater toll on men, who account for 79 percent of the 32,000 suicides in 2005.

Denney's research, published last year in Social Science Quarterly, concluded that men who are divorced are 39 percent more likely to commit suicide than those still married. The difference increases to 50 percent when a man is a widow.

Among women, differences in suicide risk among those who were married, divorced or widowed were statistically insignificant.

Health experts remain unsure of the specific reason for the widespread incongruity, but Denney suspects that marriage offers a support system for men that's uniquely beneficial.

"Maybe they forge a relationship and a reliance on their partner that's specific to that relationship," he told AOL News. "Much as marriage is important to women, it just doesn't seem to be the driving factor."

Other research has already shown that married men enjoy major health benefits, including a boost to longevity and a decreased risk of smoking or alcohol and drug abuse. "Married men don't engage in the same risky behaviors," Denney said. "That stability could be a further protective factor."

And while married women often balance employment with child rearing, Denney said statistics suggest they're coping quite well. "Women remain the primary caretakers in most households," he said. "They're working more, yet feeling better."

That might be what explains a divorced or widowed woman's relatively low suicide risk. Denney's subsequent research, published in February's Journal of Marriage and Family, concluded that children offered a major protective effect against suicide. For each additional child in a household, adults were 6 percent less likely to commit suicide.

Denney's latest research, which has yet to be published, indicates that this protective effect is even more significant among women, whether married, divorced or widowed.

"Closer relationships with children mean more connections with people outside of themselves," he said. "It's enough to distinguish women from men when we're talking about suicide and family structure."

Preventive efforts already treat isolation as one risk factor for suicide, and Denney wants that broadened to incorporate marital status. For now, though, more study on the protective benefits of marriage is needed.

"This remains a neglected area," he said. "But more and more, there seems to be a connection between living arrangements and the risks they entail for one's life."

http://www.aolnews.com/2010/03/10/suicide-rate-greater-among-divorced-men-research-finds/



Now ban me for posting an article about a study, you PC, gynocentric drones.

tbh

Reward wrote: »

Now ban me for posting an article about a study, you PC, gynocentric drones.

banned.

stupidusername

Have to say I really don't see much point in getting married. I don't think I ever will. I mean if you put any thought into it it's hard to justify it, logically I mean. of course if the romance part of it is something you like then go ahead, I mean purely from a 'what good is it going to do' kinda way. It's not that I'm against the idea of it, it's more I'm neutral about it, apathetic I suppose.

metrovelvet

Divorce is a modern scourge. It should be more stigmatised. It is the most stressful thing to go through next to bereavement, the kids suffer, the communities suffer and the only ones benefitting are the lawyers.

I can see what that article is talking about. I can see how kids can stop you from killing yourself when you go through something like divorce and if you dont see them or have dependants it can become so easy.

I dont think the article is fair to say 'women seem to be immune to ...." but the key word there is SEEM. The numbers would make it appear that way if only because of the statistics and also because failed suicide attempts dont make it into those stats. But women hold the kids, and suicide means abandoning them, and that is the worst thing a mother can do.

gbee

putaringonit wrote: »

So, other than being a romantic&/making the gf happy, why would any guy bother proposing? Ie: what incentive is left?

What incentive needs to be there? I'd advise doing it earlier rather than later.

With a few exceptions, relationships lasting longer than Ten Years, should not change ~ I've seen too many break up in the first year of marriage after 12 years of happy co habitation. Go figure. IMO, these couples would never have broken up if they had married much earlier, or not bothered after such a long time and children etc.

tbh

Just to throw it out there, what do people think of arranged marriages? I'm recently back from India and a lot of the lads I was working with have happy arranged marriages. Apparently the divorce rate os lower nut I'd say that's because divorce is more taboo in their culture.

metrovelvet

The US has the highest divorce rate in the world and France is number two. France has the highest anti depressant rate with the US as number two. And you know what they have in common...HAPPINESS is written into the constitutions of both nations.

I am sick to death of hearing about happiness. It does not exist. You can hit upon it once in a while but it never lasts, and if it did it wouldnt be so much fun, so as long as you are not sufferring intolerably you are OK.

Bleak maybe. But its better than divorce and divorce should be taboo because it STINKS. Romantic love fades, everyone knows this. People change, life changes and if you get married thinking your feelings [bad or good] are not in motion and changing you are daft and if you think it will make you on cloud nine forever or whatever you are daft because its all about negotiating change.

I dont believe in arranged marriages for the same reason I dont belive in illegalising divorce, because its disrespectful to the individuals to force them to be with people they dont want to be with, but I do think that people should be alot more cautious than they are about breaking up families where children are involved because I suspect they dont know what they are bargaining for.

tbh

Jaysus metro. I'm sorry for you, but just because you have bad experiences, it doesn't mean everyones experiences are and will be bad. Happiness does exist - I'm living proof My parents in law have been married 40 years and are still mad about each other. My mam and her partner have been together 25 years and are still as happy as the day they met.

On boards alone, look at khannie and oldgoat and r3nu4l and biggins (hope you don't mind me dropping your name fellas) - examples of a happy marriage.

I don't think anyone gets married thinking they'll feel the same way forever, I think most people know, or should know, that you have to work at a marriage.

metrovelvet

tbh wrote: »

Jaysus metro. I'm sorry for you, but just because you have bad experiences, it doesn't mean everyones experiences are and will be bad. Happiness does exist - I'm living proof My parents in law have been married 40 years and are still mad about each other. My mam and her partner have been together 25 years and are still as happy as the day they met.

On boards alone, look at khannie and oldgoat and r3nu4l and biggins (hope you don't mind me dropping your name fellas) - examples of a happy marriage.

I don't think anyone gets married thinking they'll feel the same way forever, I think most people know, or should know, that you have to work at a marriage.

What I mean is that people have ridiculous expectations out of marriage and happiness and then bail out when they are not met with the 'im not happy' clause. Without thinking about how unhappy they will be after the divorce settlement and a child[ren] with two homes.

Seriously I am sick of it. I have a friend who got divorced after two years of marriage. I knew both her and her husband. 911 happenned. She was in England doing a phd and after 911 he refused to leave America because he got patriotic. She stopped answering his phone calls. He petitioned for divorce under the cruelty clause. Written on the papers for the reason: " didnt return phone calls." All I hear about for months after the Vera Wang dress, the Park Avenue church, the Tiffany diamonds was him complaining about her leaving the peanut butter spoon in the sink and her complaining about her in laws. Jesus ****ing Christ. Ok, that doesnt piss me off too much because there were no kids, but if there were kids, sorry NO. I mean seriously.

Magic Eight Ball

pragmatic1 wrote: »

Wouldnt be for me. Could not spend the rest of my life with one woman. People say lifes short, its not.

And in the wrong company it's too fecking long!

Scanlas The 2nd

mood wrote: »

Female here. The majority of married couples I know are very happy maybe that is why I believe in marriage.

Why do you see marriage as a financial burden?

And you don't need to send 20k on a wedding to get married!

You don't know how the married couples you know really feel. They could be miserable on the inside but put on a happy face for the world or they could be even happier than you think.

Count Duckula

But metrovelvet, making kids grow up in a house with two parents who don't get on, who argue, who become abusive to each other - that's surely far worse than having them go through a divorce? I have friends whose parents divorced and they're perfectly well-adjusted individuals.

My parents loved each other dearly, but they argued a lot and when they did it was loud and vehement (though I hasten to add never violent). But I think growing up in that environment has made me into the person I am today; I'm shy, sometimes insecure and I avoid confrontation at all costs, even if in the long run it's going to cause me great distress. I know my parents never wanted to divorce (otherwise they would have done), and I saw how broken up my father was when my mother passed away. He's still in bits now. But I also know the effect it's had on me as a person. I got so used to making myself invisible that when something stirs up I still do the same.

In a situation where the parents argue all the time, a divorce would surely be a better option. You just can't have children growing up in that environment.

metrovelvet

Divorce doesn't stop the arguing.

I dont think we should be talking about this on Valentines Day. Happy Valentines everybody.