Canvass for Ivana Bacik and Ruairi Quinn, Saturday 19 Feb

Michael Nugent

On Saturday week, 19 February, Atheist Ireland members will be spending two hours in the morning canvassing and dropping leaflets for Ivana Bacik in Dun Laoghaire, and two hours in the afternoon canvassing and dropping leaflets for Ruairi Quinn in Dublin South East.

These are the two members of the outgoing Oireachtas who have been most supportive on secular issues since Atheist Ireland was formed two years ago, and we want to actively help secular candidates to be elected.

If you are free to help with this canvass and leaflet drop, please email our lobbying officer Conor McGrath at lobbying(at)atheist.ie.

Also, Atheist Ireland has asked all general election candidates and political parties six questions about secular issues. You can read the questions and the replies that we have got so far on the General Election page of our website.

Next week we will publish an analysis of all of the replies, and of the party manifestos, and we will ask voters in all constituencies to support the candidates who are closest to our policies on secular issues.

Dades

Are these guys going to allude to their (and IB's) affiliation with Atheist Ireland as they canvas?

Or is this strictly politics?

Michael Nugent

We haven’t decided on the nuance of what we will say on the day, and I am open to suggestions. We hope that there will also be people with us who are not members of Atheist Ireland, but who support secular policies.

Ivana is public about her membership of Atheist Ireland. Ruairi is not a member of Atheist Ireland, but has welcomed our offer to help.

We also hope to publish a joint statement closer to the election along with the Humanist Association of Ireland and other secular-minded groups.

mikhail

The first time I met Ivana Bacik, she was canvassing in my local shopping centre. I asked her what she stood for. She told me, "Nothing you'd be interested in."* I'd sooner vote FF than her, and I'm usually a labour voter.

*That was her response, word for word.

Dades

You weren't dressed up as a bishop or something, I assume? :pac:

Seems like a very odd response, alright.

maggy_thatcher

mikhail wrote: »

The first time I met Ivana Bacik, she was canvassing in my local shopping centre. I asked her what she stood for. She told me, "Nothing you'd be interested in."* I'd sooner vote FF than her, and I'm usually a labour voter.

*That was her response, word for word.

Yeah, she's currently the 11th preference on my boards.ie/vote page, but that's mainly because of her pro-discrimination policies with regards to gender quotas. To be honest, I couldn't care less which imaginary friend they have (or don't have) - it's their policies that matter the most.

Einhard

Chances are that atheist canvassers could do more harm than good considering the levels of antagonism amongst the general public to what they see as "overly push" atheists. Amd I say that as an atheist.

mikhail

Dades wrote: »

You weren't dressed up as a bishop or something, I assume? :pac:

Nothing. Not even a cheeky "Federal Breast Inspector" t-shirt or anything like that - neutral clothes on a ~20-year-old guy.

Seems like a very odd response, alright.

No kidding. So as to avoid an international incident where some MEP accuses her of having bitten him or something, I've since voted tactically to keep her out of office at every opportunity.

strobe

Would take more than her support for secular policy to get me to vote for the distasteful Ms Bacik this side of hell freezing over I'm afraid.

Rev Hellfire

Think I'd prefer to vote someone in based on their ability to run the country rather than their belief (or lack thereof) in a god.

amacachi

I don't think I'll be hurrying to canvas for a self-serving double-jobbing politician who didn't bother hanging around the Seanad during the vote on the last bit of the Finance Bill this year. But that's just me.

mikhail

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Think I'd prefer to vote someone in based on their ability to run the country rather than their belief (or lack thereof) in a god.

Michael Nugent wrote: »

...These are the two members of the outgoing Oireachtas who have been most supportive on secular issues since Atheist Ireland was formed two years ago, and we want to actively help secular candidates to be elected...

Secularism is the concept that government or other entities should exist separately from religion and/or religious beliefs.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secularism

Rev Hellfire

nice try but I think most people can see that the only reason AI are canvassing for black is because she's one of their own.

Less to do with pushing a secular agenda and everything to do put pushing their organisation. :rolleyes:

Newaglish

Labour support a number of issues, the least of which is secularism. If Atheist Ireland are canvassing for a particular political party that suggests that they support all of their policies. Can you safely say that all members of the organisation agree with this? Even if this is the case, I think it's pretty inappropriate for AI to be campaigning on such issues as the economy, healthcare, foreign affairs, public sector reform etc., which is effectively what you will be doing.

Or is this some sort of quid pro quo arrangement where Labour would promise policy initiatives (or openness to suggestions) in return for canvassing manpower? I would find this reprehensible.

Michael Nugent

Thanks for the feedback. Atheist Ireland is not supporting any political party in the General Election.

Rather than reply to all of the comments individually here, we have published a post on our website that clarifies what we are doing.

Please vote for secular candidates in the General Election

Pompey Magnus

Hmmm, now where have I heard of this kind of attitude when it comes to voting before...oh yes, now I remember:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIvT5L0AwpY

mikhail

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

nice try but I think most people can see that the only reason AI are canvassing for black is because she's one of their own.

Less to do with pushing a secular agenda and everything to do put pushing their organisation. :rolleyes:

Pushing how exactly? By promoting secularism? How terribly, horribly fair of them.

Galvasean

I wouldn't vote for Bacik because of her sexist poolicies that are disguised as feminisim.
Atheist smaytheist.

Rev Hellfire

mikhail wrote: »

Pushing how exactly? By promoting secularism? How terribly, horribly fair of them.

But they're not promoting all parties that promote a secular agenda, they're canvassing for labour.

They've compromised their position my view, I'd rather support an organisation which hasn't intrinsically linked itself with a particular political party.

mikhail

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

But they're not promoting all parties that promote a secular agenda, they're canvassing for labour.

They've compromised their position my view, I'd rather support an organisation which hasn't intrinsically linked itself with a particular political party.

Oh, agreed. I'd be shocked if they don't row in behind anyone else, to be honest - major mistake otherwise.

bnt

I don't have the opportunity to vote for Bacik, since I'm not in her constituency; all I know about her besides the above is how she keeps agreeing to speak to the UCD Humanist Society, then pulling out at the last minute.

When it comes to the Blasphemy Law, it appears that every party except FF are against it, though some appear to be a bit "wooly" on what they are going to do about the Constitutional issues. In my particular constituency (Dublin South), the front runner appears to be independent Shane Ross: he seems to be focusing on the economy to the exclusion of all other considerations - because that's all he's being asked about. :rolleyes:

robindch

Galvasean wrote: »

I wouldn't vote for Bacik because of her sexist poolicies that are disguised as feminisim.

A few years back, a good (non-native) friend of mine was studying law in Trinity and asked me for a hand out with a number of essays that she had to do for Bacik. I may still have these frightful things on some distant backup, but the subjects were invariably from the extremist ends of the feminist debate -- think of what Sokal would have written had he done feminism -- and were, frankly, nuts. I certainly agree with everything that I've heard Bacik say on the topic of religion, but to be honest, while I detest it with some enthusiasm, it is not the biggest problem that this country faces just now.

If any hacks do show up at my front door, I'll be raising the religious control of schools, but I'll be voting in this election with a view to producing a government which can work to resolve as quickly and as convincingly as possible, the economic mess the nation's in.

Michael Nugent

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

But they're not promoting all parties that promote a secular agenda, they're canvassing for labour. They've compromised their position my view, I'd rather support an organisation which hasn't intrinsically linked itself with a particular political party.

I have already answered this a few posts earlier by saying that Atheist Ireland is not supporting any political party in the General Election.

In that reply, I linked to a post on our website that clarified what we were doing and why. Here is the text of that post:

Please vote for secular candidates in the General Election

Atheist Ireland is asking people to vote for General Election candidates of all parties and none whose policies are closest to our secular agenda. As we approach the election, we will be publicly informing people about which candidates best fit this description based on their responses to questions we have asked them. In doing so we are not endorsing the policies of any candidate or party on any issue other than secularism.

As we stated in our first post on this issue, we realise that most people will vote based on economic policies or party allegiance. In such cases we are asking people that, if several candidates share your views on these wider issues, to please choose the candidate that most supports a rational, ethical, secular Ireland.

Why are we taking this political initiative? Atheist Ireland has a constitution that outlines two broad aims: to promote atheism and reason over superstition and supernaturalism; and to promote an ethical and secular Ireland where the state does not support or fund or give special treatment to any religion.

The second of these aims involves an unambiguously political project. We are involved in political advocacy to change laws to make the State more secular. This is more likely to happen when we elect candidates who are committed to secular values, regardless of what party they happen to be affiliated to.

There are two ways that we can judge which candidates are most likely to advance a secular agenda if they are elected. The first way is to examine their actual record in the outgoing Oireachtas, and the second way is to examine their proposals and manifestos for the incoming Oireachtas.

With regard to the actual record of outgoing Oireachtas members, since Atheist Ireland was formed, we have had constructive discussions with elected politicians of all parties and none. The two politicians who have been most responsive to our agenda are Ivana Bacik and Ruairi Quinn. They have publicly supported our policy proposals and have incorporated them into legislative amendments.

With regard to the proposals of candidates for the incoming election, we have written to all of them, asking them six questions about secular issues. By early next week we will have analysed the responses of all candidates and parties, and we will be asking people to vote for the candidates in their constituency whose responses are closest to our policies on these issues.

Between now and then, we will continue to publish all responses as they come in. Please inform yourself about the secular policies of the candidates in your constituency, and please vote for candidates who support a secular Ireland.

Rev Hellfire

Michael Nugent wrote: »

I have already answered this a few posts earlier by saying that Atheist Ireland is not supporting any political party in the General Election.

I'm sure you can see how distributing leaflets for Labour candidates could be seen as creating an association between yourselves and Labour.

drkpower

Michael Nugent wrote: »

I have already answered this a few posts earlier by saying that Atheist Ireland is not supporting any political party in the General Election.

Are AI doing leaflet drops/canvassing for candidates of any political party other than LAB?

mykro28

I do not think that AI should have done this. it makes it very difficult to believe that AI "are not supporting any political party". If any member wishes to canvas or support anyone, that is a personal matter and I don't think that any view should be taken by AI.

It is not enough to say not that AI do not support..... it is too late, the colours have been nailed to the mast.
If for example Labour get into power and renege on a commitment, which always happens, how can AI criticize Labour with any credibility!
I think this was ill advised and places the credibility of AI into question.
Just my €0.02

robindch

Michael Nugent wrote: »

I have already answered this a few posts earlier by saying that Atheist Ireland is not supporting any political party in the General Election.

If the leaflets include some commitments to a secular Ireland, or even just removing religious control of schools, then I think AI's actions are fine.

But if AI members are leafleting without a written commitment specifically included on what they're distributing, then it seems that there may not be a quid pro quo between AI and Labour. That despite what both Quinn and Bacik have said and done in the past (and I don't think there's any doubt here that Labour's policy with respect to religion is the best of what's on offer just now).

Michael - have you seen advance copies of the leaflets? And if so, do they contain written commitments to some of the aims of AI?

Michael Nugent

Rev Hellfire - Yes I can see how this could be seen as creating an association, and how clarifying what we are doing will correct that misperception among people of good will.

drkpower and robindch - I don’t know yet what we will be doing when we analyse the results of the questions. We’re also looking at the party manifestos. Whatever we do, it will be aimed at maximising the number of candidates elected, from any or no parties, who promote secular policies.

mykro28 - It is only difficult to believe if you believe that I am or may be telling an untruth when I say it, which I am not. As an aside, if were asking people to vote for the Labour party, which we are not, that would give us more and not less credibility to criticise them if they reneged on a commitment.

Benincasa

I think you need to distinguish between being an atheist and being anti-theist. Or else change the name of the group so that it is clear that you are supporting socially liberal policies; this is what it seems to come down to me.

I really can't see why an atheist organisation would campaign for any candidate.

Michael Nugent

Benincasa wrote: »

I think you need to distinguish between being an atheist and being anti-theist. Or else change the name of the group so that it is clear that you are supporting socially liberal policies; this is what it seems to come down to me.

Atheist Ireland has a constitution that outlines two broad aims: to promote atheism and reason over superstition and supernaturalism; and to promote an ethical and secular Ireland where the state does not support or fund or give special treatment to any religion.

We considered various names before settling on Atheist Ireland. Many similar groups exist around the world that promote secular politics under a name that includes a variation of atheism. There are different opinions on whether this is good or bad, but its probably a discussion for a different thread.

Newaglish

Michael Nugent wrote: »

I have already answered this a few posts earlier by saying that Atheist Ireland is not supporting any political party in the General Election.

Give me a break - you are canvassing for two Labour party candidates. To dress it up in the guise that you are not endorsing members of that party (and ergo, that party) is a nonsense.

I appreciate the message of encouraging people to consider secular candidates, however picking two candidates that you consider to favour secularism and actually canvassing for them to be elected is a whole different matter entirely.

I can't see any great difference between the response from the two candidates in question, and from other candidates who are equally in favour of a secular society. One wonders why you caren't canvassing for them?

Incidentally, Ruari Quinn only managed to answer four of your six questions.

Michael Nugent

Newaglish wrote: »

Give me a break - you are canvassing for two Labour party candidates. To dress it up in the guise that you are not endorsing members of that party (and ergo, that party) is a nonsense.

We'll have to agree to differ on that.

Newaglish wrote: »

I can't see any great difference between the response from the two candidates in question, and from other candidates who are equally in favour of a secular society. One wonders why you caren't canvassing for them?

We're inviting people to canvass for Ivana and Ruairi because of their existing actual record of promoting secular policies in the outgoing Oireachtas, not on the basis of their answers to our questions. We will be analysing all of the answers to the questions over the next few days, and will decide how best to promote the most secular candidates.

wordcount

Michael Nugent wrote: »

Thanks for the feedback. Atheist Ireland is not supporting any political party in the General Election.

Rather than reply to all of the comments individually here, we have published a post on our website that clarifies what we are doing.

Please vote for secular candidates in the General Election

Is that not just a little restrictive.

Heres a hypothetical for ye

Jackie healey Hitler is the only secularist candidate in the Ballot

As a committed member of athesim Ireland hes gott get my vote.

Michael Nugent

wordcount wrote: »

Is that not just a little restrictive. Heres a hypothetical for ye

Jackie healey Hitler is the only secularist candidate in the Ballot. As a committed member of athesim Ireland hes gott get my vote.

An interesting candidate, but our position as described in the link is as follows:

We realise that most people will vote based on economic policies or party allegiance. In such cases we are asking people that, if several candidates share your views on these wider issues, to please choose the candidate that most supports a rational, ethical, secular Ireland.

recedite

AFAIK none of our parties have a policy on religion, therefore they are effectively secular. If any party promoted atheism they would alienate a large number of voters, so they sit on the fence.
However some individual candidates have a tendency to support religious values, while others are actively supporting the secular agenda.
It would be appropriate for AI members to support these secularist individuals. But who are they and what have they done?
Bacik has joined AI. What else has she done?
What has Ruari Q. done?
Here is James Reilly (FG) pushing for secular schools in a Dail speech.

Tim Robbins

Good stuff Michael. However, I see Labour / SIPTU as one and the same and I don't like the idea of trying to pay my mortgage with Joan Burton as Minister for Finance.

I have to put practically in front of atheism in this election.

Zamboni

The 'secular analysis' of the various parties manifestos on Atheist.ie reads like a 'How to Vote' for (not arsed reading manifesto) atheists.

Overall then, the Labour Party manifesto is detailed and specific. While some issues on the secular agenda are not addresses in the document, there are a number of important and constructive reforms promised which can certainly be welcomed.

Overall, then, while the Fine Gael manifesto raises the future possibility of some significant advances, it is less clear in terms of setting out what the precise policy outcomes would be in these areas.

Overall then, the Fianna Fáil manifesto contains no commitments at all to advance the secular agenda which Atheist Ireland is working to achieve.

Overall then, the Green Party manifesto – while full of (usually uncosted) proposals by which to integrate environmental concerns with wider policy on economics, agriculture, transport, and so on – has very little to say (and then only in quite vague terms) on the policy issues of relevance to the secular perspective.

Taken from http://www.atheist.ie/


Why not just present the relevant items/sections from each parties manifesto and allow people to digest and make up their own mind?

Michael Nugent

Zamboni wrote: »

Why not just present the relevant items/sections from each parties manifesto and allow people to digest and make up their own mind?

Because we are an advocacy group, not a disinterested public information service.

We do include links to each of the manifestos to enable people to check them out first-hand and get more detailed information.

As an aside, as you have quoted the final paragraph of our analyses of four of the manifestos, here are the final paragraphs of our analyses of the other two:

Overall then, the Sinn Féin manifesto is full of promises, and suggests that the party may be receptive to many of Atheist Ireland’s key policy concerns, but much would depend on how the promises develop as more layers of detail are built up around them.

Overall, then, while the bulk of the Workers’ Party manifesto is cleared focused on presenting a clear ideological approach to economic recovery, secularists can certainly welcome the commitment to redrafting an entirely new Constitution.

For the full overviews of each manifesto, plus links to the full manifestos, plus the responses that we have got from parties and candidates to our six questions on secular issues, go to http://atheist.ie

Zamboni

Michael Nugent wrote: »

Because we are an advocacy group, not a disinterested public information service.

As an aside, as you have quoted the final paragraph of our analyses of four of the manifestos, here are the final paragraphs of our analyses of the other two:

Hi Michael,

Is Dr McGrath a spokesman for AI, an elected offical within AI or just a member?

Thanks

Michael Nugent

Zamboni wrote: »

Hi Michael,

Is Dr McGrath a spokesman for AI, an elected offical within AI or just a member?

Thanks

He is our lobbying officer, which is a position on our committee. He has a professional background as a lobbyist in Westminster and a university lecturer and author in political lobbying.

Zombrex

strobe wrote: »

Would take more than her support for secular policy to get me to vote for the distasteful Ms Bacik this side of hell freezing over I'm afraid.

Bacik is a difficult one. While I agree in principle with a lot of her politics, the way she often seems to conduct herself just causes flashbacks to the horror of student politics in UL.

But then again I guess if you waited for the perfect candidate in Ireland you will be waiting a while.

sensibleken

I canvased for Ruairi Quinn in 1987. One of the few hopes i have is for a coalition and himself to be Finance minister again.

robindch

Wicknight wrote: »

[...] the horror of student politics in UL.

Didn't know you were a UL-head -- that's three of us here

AudreyHepburn

Unfortunately, due to Fianna Fail's excellent scheduling, I'll be in London for Election Day and so won't be able to vote. I'm hoping for a Labour/Fine Gael coalition though.

Saying that I really do think that the beliefs or lack of beliefs of the various candiates should be the last thing on people's minds right now.

We are in the grip of an economic crisis and for those voting it has to be based who can best lead us out of it, who can provide jobs, who can prevent more severe cuts and taxes, who will take responsibility, not who believes in god and who doesn't, which lets be honest is the real issue at hand, not their ideas on secularism which I have no problem with.

Zombrex

robindch wrote: »

Didn't know you were a UL-head -- that's three of us here

Comp Sys 98-02, for my sins

Michael Nugent

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Saying that I really do think that the beliefs or lack of beliefs of the various candiates should be the last thing on people's minds right now.

We are in the grip of an economic crisis and for those voting it has to be based who can best lead us out of it, who can provide jobs, who can prevent more severe cuts and taxes, who will take responsibility, not who believes in god and who doesn't, which lets be honest is the real issue at hand, not their ideas on secularism which I have no problem with.

We haven't asked any candidate whether they believe in gods or not, and I'm not sure where you got the idea that we are asking anybody to consider voting on that basis.

We realise that most people will vote based on economic policies or party allegiance. In such cases we are asking people that, if several candidates share your views on these wider issues, to please choose the candidate that most supports a rational, ethical, secular Ireland.

amacachi

Plenty I don't know about Bacik but none of what I do know is positive. Also getting to run with the party leader in an election when your party is on the way up suggests someone is a bit too good at the politics. :pac:

strobe

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Unfortunately, due to Fianna Fail's excellent scheduling, I'll be in London for Election Day and so won't be able to vote. I'm hoping for a Labour/Fine Gael coalition though.

Don't worry Audrey I'm already voting for 7 other people who will be out of the country (and three people that died last year) so just let me know your normal constituency and I'll add you to my list.

Saying that I really do think that the beliefs or lack of beliefs of the various candiates should be the last thing on people's minds right now.

We are in the grip of an economic crisis and for those voting it has to be based who can best lead us out of it, who can provide jobs, who can prevent more severe cuts and taxes, who will take responsibility,

Absolutely. But if two candidates (parties) seem equal in how they will handle the economic situation, something has to break the tie. For most people that will be some aspect of social policy, such as their views on secularism, education etc.

not who believes in god and who doesn't, which lets be honest is the real issue at hand, not their ideas on secularism which I have no problem with.

Awww and you were doing so well. But yes as always you are absolutely right. We could not care less about the issue of secularism in the country. We all say we do, and act like we do, and well....do. But no you have us nailed. That is all a big conspiracy we have been concocting on this forum for the past 5 years. Pretend to care about secularism, discuss it constantly, straight out say that we could not care less what someone believes as long as it doesn't effect the society we have to live in, when really all we care about is whether they privately believe in a sky man or not.

When I grow up I want to be as perceptive as you, not to mention be able to read minds as good as you, that would be cool to. That would be really cool.













ughhhh.....

robindch

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

We are in the grip of an economic crisis and for those voting it has to be based who can best lead us out of it, who can provide jobs, who can prevent more severe cuts and taxes

The government doesn't "provide" jobs that directly benefit the Irish economy. That's what the private sector does, particularly the export sector. The issue is who's most likely to implement the economic policies which most encourage this sector and, as somebody who's on the front line in this, no party has produced a policy document that addresses macroeconomic issues properly -- preferring instead to produce insipid slogans in the knowledge that the economically illiterate prefer to cheer and howl, rather than think. A plague upon the lot of them.

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

not who believes in god and who doesn't, which lets be honest is the real issue at hand, not their ideas on secularism which I have no problem with.

Well, why don't you be honest and actually listen to what's being said to you?

Nobody here gives a tuppenny-damn what religious people believe.

Everybody here cares that the nation's schools are being run by an organization stuffed with pedophiles, those who protected them and those who knew about them, but did nothing. And which indoctrinated -- and continues to indoctrinate -- children with anti-social religious trash at the expense of reason and the kind of non-magical thinking that might have helped prevent the country from getting itself into the mess it's in now.

Tim Robbins

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Unfortunately, due to Fianna Fail's excellent scheduling, I'll be in London for Election Day and so won't be able to vote. I'm hoping for a Labour/Fine Gael coalition though.

Saying that I really do think that the beliefs or lack of beliefs of the various candiates should be the last thing on people's minds right now.

We are in the grip of an economic crisis and for those voting it has to be based who can best lead us out of it, who can provide jobs, who can prevent more severe cuts and taxes, who will take responsibility, not who believes in god and who doesn't, which lets be honest is the real issue at hand, not their ideas on secularism which I have no problem with.

The economy is important to me, but so it my children's right to an education.

AudreyHepburn

Tim Robbins wrote: »

The economy is important to me, but so it my children's right to an education.

In answer to all the above points including the quoted one, let me say that I know these are two very important issues and I have no problems with secularism whatsoever.

I just feel that at the moment the Economy has to come first and in this particular election that needs to be the issue being raised with candiates.

But this is just my personal opinion.