Should there be a statue of De Valera in O' Connell Street

FF and proud

And other places around the country. Sure dont we honour other great men like O Conell and Wolfe Tone, so why not another great man like De Valera. Sure didnt he practically set up the modern state. What do ye think?

meditraitor

Nah, maybe his family could put one up with the proceedes of the Irish Press?

BlaasForRafa

Yeah, lets put up a statue to one of the idiots that provoked a bloody civil war and then in later life was the "poster child" for state censorship, religious oppression and economic stagnation.

Max Power1

Wasnt he partially responsible for handing the task of creating the current (backward) constitution to clergymen? In that case no.

kev9100

Hell no! De Valera was an awful leader who plunged the country into a civil war, destroyed the Irish economy for generations and tied the State so close to the Church that it was at times difficult to tell them apart. He should be reviled, not honoured.

hidinginthebush

Every time someone mentions Dev, all I can think of is Alan Rickman

mikemac

He was a Clare TD so let Ennis sort it out

Min

Whether people like or dislike De Valera, he did a lot of good for this country.

alejandro1977

FF and proud wrote: »

And other places around the country. Sure dont we honour other great men like O Conell and Wolfe Tone, so why not another great man like De Valera. Sure didnt he practically set up the modern state. What do ye think?

at the moment every person commemorated in O'Connell St was born outside Dublin.


Like De Valera, Larkin was also born outside Ireland....

Not sure about the modern state. In fact almost the opposite - wanted the country to go backwards

TommyKnocker

Maybe we could have one like the the one at Mount Rushmore in the US (see below) only with Dev, Charlie, Bertie & Brian :D

flutered

a definite NO.

Gregor Samsa

feelingstressed wrote: »

He was a Clare TD so let Ennis sort it out

There's a statue of him in the park near the Courthouse in Ennis.

(http://www.flickr.com/photos/42156896@N00/2043041605/)

The public library in Ennis is also named after him, and has his car on display in a little museum at the side.

outandabout

Let's be consistent here.

At the moment O'Connell Street has statues of Charles Stewart Parnell, Daniel O'Connell, James Larkin, Father Theobald Matthew and Sir John Gray.

What's the criteria that merits you getting a statue?

A case could be made for Michael Collins, Robert Emmet, Wolfe Tone, James Connolly, Erskine Childers and Arthur Griffith if the City Council decided that the street needed another statue of a prominent Irish historical figure.

goose2005

outandabout wrote: »

Let's be consistent here.

At the moment O'Connell Street has statues of Charles Stewart Parnell, Daniel O'Connell, James Larkin, Father Theobald Matthew and Sir John Gray.

What's the criteria that merits you getting a statue?

A case could be made for Michael Collins, Robert Emmet, Wolfe Tone, James Connolly, Erskine Childers and Arthur Griffith if the City Council decided that the street needed another statue of a prominent Irish historical figure.

Do they all have to be politicians and rebels? Is there nothing else of note?

Biggins

No. Michael Collins more like.

spank_inferno

Aside from the mess of a civil war.

Regarding the nuts & bolts of being a leader, DeValera was a very very poor taoiseach.

I would say no.

Plus, O'Connell street is already full of statues, junkies & crass neon signs.
It doesn't need a Dev statue to lower it further!

whoopdedoo

when his family pay back the £3,000,000 punts he stole from the state then why not?

til then NO!!

aidan24326

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Yeah, lets put up a statue to one of the idiots that provoked a bloody civil war and then in later life was the "poster child" for state censorship, religious oppression and economic stagnation.

Religious oppression? I don't get that at all. Please explain.

The guy was in bed with the Catholic Church, and handed them excessive and unwarranted power (just have a read of our constitution to verify that). The other stuff I more or less agree with.

Rosahane

This is not such a bad idea.

Why not go for a theme park:D

We could get a suitable large area of land and put up a statue for each of the Fianna Fail leaders who have done so much for the country themselves.

Perhaps the Dublin Docklands site - or maybe the Ringaskiddy site would be more suitable due to it's toxicity:eek:

The whole enterprise could easily be funded by a simple levy on FF members - or at least the remaining ones who have to be either incredibaly stupid or optimistic enough to believe that their gravytrain will come back:cool:

RobbieTheRobber

A cursory glance at the OP's posting history shows the user to be a complete wind up merchant.


As for a Dev statue, the last thing anyone should be considering is a statue for anyone, least of all in my opinion the founder of those who had greatest effect in allowing our country to fail as it has.


The OP doesn't really want a discussion though, not that there is much to dicsuss!

outandabout

Do they all have to be politicians and rebels? Is there nothing else of note
...
Hi Goose

Theobald Matthew was the founder of the Cork Total Abstinence Society which later grew to become known as The Pioneers.

For those to young to remember, members took a Pledge to abstain from all alcohol for all of their lives.

As a rule though, most O'Connell Street statues are dedicated to politicians.

OhNoYouDidn't

Accepting the OP is a WUM, it is an interesting question about why Dev didn't get more stuff named after him or statues.

Like it or not, he was the founding father of the nation and it is unusual that where other lesser figures of the rising alone got train stations, streets and parks named after him, its most unusual considering Dev went on to be both Taoiseach and President.

He is more deserving of commeration than most who are on O'Connell St. And this from someone who believes FF to be worse than cancer.

steelcityblues

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Accepting the OP is a WUM, it is an interesting question about why Dev didn't get more stuff named after him or statues.

Like it or not, he was the founding father of the nation and it is unusual that where other lesser figures of the rising alone got train stations, streets and parks named after him, its most unusual considering Dev went on to be both Taoiseach and President.

He is more deserving of commeration than most who are on O'Connell St. And this from someone who believes FF to be worse than cancer.

Think it shows that even many in official Ireland eventually recognised that the man was a force for a backwards, priest ridden, non-romantic, unintellectual version of Ireland, and therefore it is better not to make him too prominent post death. Though I think there has been a fair amount of revisionism attached to Michael Collins too - Neil Jordan didn't help.

Then again, he and that period of Ireand can never be entirely forgotten either.

johnnyskeleton

I think DeV looks like a penguin.

I think we should have a giant statute of a penguin on every street corner.

It will confuse the hell out of southern hemisphere visitors.

gandalf

God no I would find a statue of him on O'Connell Street depressing.

How about a statue of someone who is not a bloody politician, I suggest a statue of Gary Moore.

Einhard

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Yeah, lets put up a statue to one of the idiots that provoked a bloody civil war and then in later life was the "poster child" for state censorship, religious oppression and economic stagnation.

Tto suggest that that is the sum total of DeV's accomplishments is a tad unfair. Very few nations have managed to emerge from long periods of colonisation and establish themselves as democracies. Ireland did, and although DeV ignored the will of the people during the Civil War, and should be condemned for that, he did do much in terms of establishing the democratic and state institutions which the state rests on. People always forget that Ireland is one of the oldest parliamentary democracies in the world, and DeV deserves a share of credit for that.

He also managed to limit the appeal of fascism in Ireland- no mean achievement when one looks at what was ahppeneing elsewhere in Europe, and at a time when the IRA was open in its appeals to nazi Germany. He also kept us out of WW II. People may look back now and consider that somewhat cowardly, but there's no glory in war, and his actions in keeping us neutral, in the face of massive British and American pressure, saved countless lives and untold damage.

As regards the Constitution, it is actually quite a liberal document, especially considering the era in which it was produced. Also, DeV can hardly be criticsed too much for reflecting the will of the nation in the document. He didn't make Ireland a deeply Catholic and conservative nation- he simply reflected that in his nature, his policies, and his Constitution.


On the economy, Ireland never really had a chance. Sure, the economic war with England probably wasn't the greatest idea of all time, but it was sparked by English demands that Ireland continue to pay huge amounts of reperarations for the various land schemes on the late 19th and early 20th century. In other words, into the 30s, England was demanding we repay them for their funding of the transfer of land which was originally Irish, back to the indigenous Irish. It's hardly surprising in that context that DeV refused. And it was rhe English who retaliated with tariffs; there was hardly anything else Ireland could do, but respond in kind. Incidentally, Lemass was architect of economic policy in the 30s and 40s, so our "greatest" taioseach must bear some of the blame traditionally hoisted on DeV.

After the decline of 30s of course, came the Emergency, and it's hardly surprising that Ireland didn't prosper as war raged across Europe.

All in all, whilst I'm no fan of the man, and wouldn;t be too bothered if I never see a statue of him, the level of oppropium heaped upon him is unfair IMO, and fails to take into account the appalling circumstances he faced during his reign. We think the times we live in are challenging- try a state, newly independent after 800 years of foreign oppression, faced with not just one of the greatest economic alamities in history, but the rise both of Fascism and Communism, a belligerent formed colonial master, in a continent hurtling towards the greatest ilitary conflagration in history. Kinda puts DeV and his failures in perspective.

goose2005 wrote: »

Do they all have to be politicians and rebels? Is there nothing else of note?

There's one being planned for Stephen Gately around the corner...

OhNoYouDidn't

steelcityblues wrote: »

Think it shows that even many in official Ireland eventually recognised that the man was a force for a backwards, priest ridden, non-romantic, unintellectual version of Ireland, and therefore it is better not to make him too prominent post death. Though I think there has been a fair amount of revisionism attached to Michael Collins too - Neil Jordan didn't help.

Then again, he and that period of Ireand can never be entirely forgotten either.

Harsh.

I'm not a huge Dev fan, but he was a man of his times. He was no better or worse than many rulers of Catholic countries of the time.

For a man who was either Taoiseach or President for the guts of 50 years, there is a suprising lack of commereation for the man. If Sean Heuston or Matt Talbot can get honoured, I think he should have too.

Maybe its simply that he died in the mid 70's where not a lot got built at the time and there was nothing suitable.

danbohan

FF and proud wrote: »

And other places around the country. Sure dont we honour other great men like O Conell and Wolfe Tone, so why not another great man like De Valera. Sure didnt he practically set up the modern state. What do ye think?

yes , at the junction with eden key and bachelors walk , he liked cross roads did dev

Coillte_Bhoy

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Accepting the OP is a WUM, it is an interesting question about why Dev didn't get more stuff named after him or statues.

Like it or not, he was the founding father of the nation and it is unusual that where other lesser figures of the rising alone got train stations, streets and parks named after him, its most unusual considering Dev went on to be both Taoiseach and President.

He is more deserving of commeration than most who are on O'Connell St. And this from someone who believes FF to be worse than cancer.

Founding father of the nation?? Come on, the state was over a decade old before he came to power. Granted he then went on to shape it in according to his own regressive ideals but to call him a founding father is a bit much imo

problemchimp

Phil Lynott has a statue and he was a junkie. Matt Talbot has a bridge named after him and he was a headcase. Molly Malone was a hooker. Patrick Kavanagh was a cranky ****ker. And then there's the ****king Spire. What's the criteria, surely Dev is ahead of this lot.

Coillte_Bhoy

problemchimp wrote: »

Phil Lynott has a statue and he was a junkie. Matt Talbot has a bridge named after him and he was a headcase. Molly Malone was a hooker. Patrick Kavanagh was a cranky ****ker. And then there's the ****king Spire. What's the criteria, surely Dev is ahead of this lot.

Not for me he wasnt.

BlaasForRafa

problemchimp wrote: »

Phil Lynott has a statue and he was a junkie.

Yeah but Dev couldn't play the bass like Philo could!

OhNoYouDidn't

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Founding father of the nation?? Come on, the state was over a decade old before he came to power. Granted he then went on to shape it in according to his own regressive ideals but to call him a founding father is a bit much imo

They weren't just his own 'regressive' ideals, and a lot of what he did was very progressive AT THE TIME. Again, I'm not a Dev fan per say, but people are being ludicrious in their criticism.

But the debate isn't about whether Dev was good, bad or indifferent. For someone who was such a large and important historical figure in the nations history, it is interesting that the sum of his commeration is a statue in a park in Ennis.

OhNoYouDidn't

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Not for me he wasnt.

But you accept he was a key historical figure?

steelcityblues

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Harsh.

I'm not a huge Dev fan, but he was a man of his times. He was no better or worse than many rulers of Catholic countries of the time.

For a man who was either Taoiseach or President for the guts of 50 years, there is a suprising lack of commereation for the man. If Sean Heuston or Matt Talbot can get honoured, I think he should have too.

Maybe its simply that he died in the mid 70's where not a lot got built at the time and there was nothing suitable.

He didn't have to be a 'man of his times' to the extent that he was though!

For example, he made a Dail speech in 1931, in the wake of a Protestant woman being denied the post of county librarian in Mayo, saying to the effect that if it came down to a choice of appointing a Catholic or Protestant, he would choose the Catholic person because they are the majority religion.

Nonsense statements like this only fuelled religious tensions - especialy North of the border- even though we are constantly told that it is only the loyalists and republicans fault for what happened.

problemchimp

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Yeah but Dev couldn't play the bass like Philo could!

You're not wrong there Blaas.

toomevara

The whole country's already a colossal monument to political mediocrity, one more won't make much of a difference.....

OhNoYouDidn't

steelcityblues wrote: »

He didn't have to be a 'man of his times' to the extent that he was though!

For example, he made a Dail speech in 1931, in the wake of a Protestant woman being denied the post of county librarian in Mayo, saying to the effect that if it came down to a choice of appointing a Catholic or Protestant, he would choose the Catholic person because they are the majority religion.

Nonsense statements like this only fuelled religious tensions - especialy North of the border- even though we are constantly told that it is only the loyalists and republicans fault for what happened.

If thats the worst thing he did in the 1930's, we did ok relatively speaking.

Again, I amn't here to defend Dev or his legacy.

Just curious as to why the person who arguably is the most important figure in Irish history has been ignored when it comes to commemeration. If Matt Talbot gets a bridge, and all he did was wander round Dublin abusing people, its strange that Dev didn't get a street or a park.

Coillte_Bhoy

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

But you accept he was a key historical figure?

Of course, it would be madness to suggest otherwise and i do see your point, apart that is, from him being a founding father.

steelcityblues

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

If thats the worst thing he did in the 1930's, we did ok relatively speaking.

Again, I amn't here to defend Dev or his legacy.

Just curious as to why the person who arguably is the most important figure in Irish history has been ignored when it comes to commemeration. If Matt Talbot gets a bridge, and all he did was wander round Dublin abusing people, its strange that Dev didn't get a street or a park.

The most important figure in German history is arguably Adolf Hitler, so it isn't a really strong argument for someone having their name plastered across the streets and buildings.

RobbieTheRobber

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

If thats the worst thing he did in the 1930's, we did ok relatively speaking.

Again, I amn't here to defend Dev or his legacy.

Just curious as to why the person who arguably is the most important figure in Irish history has been ignored when it comes to commemeration. If Matt Talbot gets a bridge, and all he did was wander round Dublin abusing people, its strange that Dev didn't get a street or a park.

Importance to historical context doesnt necessarially translate into a reason to commemorate him though!

Sure he certainly did serve his time in political roles, and his legacy is the constitution but in terms of the war of independence calling him the most important is easily argued i think.
Then his choices post treaty would make him a very divisive choice for public commemoration imo.

OhNoYouDidn't

steelcityblues wrote: »

The most important figure in German history is arguably Adolf Hitler, so it isn't a really strong argument for someone having their name plastered across the streets and buildings.

GODWIN

I win the debate! Mod, can you please lock the thread? :pac:

OhNoYouDidn't

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Importance to historical context doesnt necessarially translate into a reason to commemorate him though!

Sure he certainly did serve his time in political roles, and his legacy is the constitution but in terms of the war of independence calling him the most important is easily argued i think.
Then his choices post treaty would make him a very divisive choice for public commemoration imo.

He is as divisive as Collins, who has numerous commerative things in his name.

He is more 'important' than any number of people with streets, statues, parks, barracks, train and bus stations in their honour.

I understand him not getting as many things as Parnell, O'Connell, Pearse, Connolly etc, but one poxy statue? Has to be something in this.

steelcityblues

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

GODWIN

I win the debate! Mod, can you please lock the thread? :pac:

No you don't. Just noting that the strongest figures in countries are usually highly divisive, like De Valera was.

For every Irish household that would not hear a bad word against the man, there was another where his name could not be mentioned out loud.

It is why he shouldn't be commemorated in public too much!

OhNoYouDidn't

steelcityblues wrote: »

No you don't. .

Yes I do. Look up Godwins Law

steelcityblues wrote: »

Just noting that the strongest figures in countries are usually highly divisive, like De Valera was

For every Irish household that would not hear a bad word against the man, there was another where his name could not be mentioned out loud.

It is why he shouldn't be commemorated in public too much!

Agreed. But so are ALL historical figures. How is Dev more divisive than, say, Collins, who got honoured?

steelcityblues

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Yes I do. Look up Godwins Law



Agreed. But so are ALL historical figures. How is Dev more divisive than, say, Collins, who got honoured?

Said earlier that Collins has been lionised too much by academics and others. The Treaty signing hasn't led to a independent, better, less authoritarian Ireland overall IMO, so he bares some of the blame for that.

Don't mind the smaller remembernaces for the man down in Cork though.

Anyway, I came from a family where Jim Larkin was seen by my grandparents as the early 20th century hero, so I don't have a big emotional connection in the Dev/Collins debate.

RobbieTheRobber

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

He is as divisive as Collins, who has numerous commerative things in his name.

He is more 'important' than any number of people with streets, statues, parks, barracks, train and bus stations in their honour.

I understand him not getting as many things as Parnell, O'Connell, Pearse, Connolly etc, but one poxy statue? Has to be something in this.

How many statues does Michael Collins have?

I found his link which clams he has only one, which makes devs one not all that strange.
http://www.michaelcollinscentre.com/collins_statue_clonakilty.html

CorkMan

Should there be a statue for De Valera on O' Connell Street?

How about a mauseloum for Brian Cowen when he dies?

OhNoYouDidn't

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

How many statues does Michael Collins have?

I found his link which clams he has only one, which makes devs one not all that strange.
http://www.michaelcollinscentre.com/collins_statue_clonakilty.html

Collins Barracks Dublin

Collins Avenue, Dublin

Collins Barracks Cork

Off the top of my head

TommyKnocker

Dev ahead of Phil Lynott :eek:

Now that's just silly

KeithAFC

I think Junder summed up De Valera with a quote he made about the Protestant people. So for that, no he shoulnd't but its your country. Do what you want.