Butt wink

jugger0

Whats the most effective treatment to get rid of this? it was very bad and i hurt my back because of it(just muscular thankfully) its alot better now but still not 100%

My flexibility isnt even that bad so i dont know why its still there... :mad:

Doctor_Socks

I'd recommend getting a trainer to look at your form, any advice here could potentially cause you to cause more damage.

jugger0

I have and he said it was fine! front squats are grand its just on back squats... any one who had the same problem got any good tips?

Transform

some of the problem there is not keeping your midline stable enough (hence why front squats when its not happening as you have to firm up more in your core to hold that front rack position) and not allowing your hips to drop forwards (ant. pelvic tilt position).

Practice squatting onto a box or steps until it starts to show and tighten up your core before starting your reps and keep it tight throughout.

Do some core stability work e.g. plank holds (make sure there is not an excessive arch in your lower back), hollow rocks, chops etc

Finally some people feel like they have to get their butt to the floor on back squats. This might be fine for some but for others breaking parallel is grand and again when you are losing that strong lumbar curve you have gone far enough and gradually aim to lower further without this happening over time as you combine this with stability work

Transform

if it looks anything like this then lots of hip flexor stretching and rolling can help also but you can clearly see the excessive lumbar curve at the start and lack of abdominal bracing before he starts (too focused on shoving his butt back and not concentrating on tightening up his midline stability before he starts).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnvgGnA7KSo

Please note that this is NOT the OP and just an example for people to know what a butt wink looks like

jugger0

When i do front squats i can sit straight down, i push my knees out loads and my hips dont move back much, but when i back squat my form is completely different.. i try to sit back more, is this down to inflexibility or just poor motor skills? Id like to start olympic lifting so thats why im asking! parallel wont cut it for that! appreciate the help by the way!

Wow that video is pretty much exactly what i do...

Remmy

Would ankle flexibility play into this if someones trying to go much below paralell when they aren't ready yet?

Transform

agreed ankle flexibility can be an issue getting lower enough as people tend to compensate by going into ant. pelvic tilt and therefore loosing midline stability.

overall you got to get the core/midline firing FIRST to keep that strong stability throughout the movement and as i mentioned stretch hips wayyyy more, sit at the bottom of goblet squat using a kettlebell or dumbbell

Hanley

Are we seriously saying that people will face the same issues when they're front squatting oly style versus sitting way back PL style?

SanoVitae

Taking a injury diagnosis from anyone on the Net who may or may not be qualified to do so is more dangerous than doing a 1-legged barbell squat on a fitball.

OP - I recommend you take the advice given by Doctor_Socks and get someone who is qualified to look at your form.

I would recommend you contact Will at Informed Performance and see if he can help you.

jugger0

SanoVitae wrote: »

Taking a injury diagnosis from anyone on the Net who may or may not be qualified to do so is more dangerous than doing a 1-legged barbell squat on a fitball.

OP - I recommend you take the advice given by Doctor_Socks and get someone who is qualified to look at your form.

I would recommend you contact Will at Informed Performance and see if he can help you.

Im not injured! its just a form problem! relax guys... jeez im not asking if i can squat with a broken back or anything!

jugger0

Hanley wrote: »

Are we seriously saying that people will face the same issues when they're front squatting oly style versus sitting way back PL style?

Id like to back squat olympic style, but i cant help turning it into a PL squat!

SanoVitae

Check out this article -> http://www.70sbig.com/blog/2010/10/the-butt-wink/

Pretty interesting take on the subject IMO.

Transform

the article just confirms what i said to do with the exception of the pelvic length issue.

The butt wink is asking your lumbar spine to become mobile (it does NOT like this one bit) as opposed to keeping it in neutral where it can be stable.

More hip stretching and work on maintaining a stronger lumbar curve through core/stability work

SanoVitae

Transform wrote: »

the article just confirms what i said to do with the exception of the pelvic length issue.

The butt wink is asking your lumbar spine to become mobile (it does NOT like this one bit) as opposed to keeping it in neutral where it can be stable.

The main point of the article was that the whole concept of the "butt wink" is absolutely rubbish to begin with.

Hopefully after learning some of the anatomy and conceptual lessons here you have a better understanding of why the “butt wink” is horse ****. In general, trainees should shove their knees out when squatting and this will allow proper depth. If a “wink” is occurring in a BW squat, it doesn’t ****ing matter because it’s a Body. Weight. Squat. It’s used for conditioning and deuce dropping.

When someone McCarthies a “butt wink” on a weighted squat and the trainee is shoving their knees out, that person is either a ****ty coach, a pervert, or flamboyant because they are clearly staring at the lifter’s ass. Properly coached squats don’t really have “butt winks”, and if they do, I think it can be explained by their anatomy (and they aren’t a big deal anyway).

Transform

SanoVitae wrote: »

The main point of the article was that the whole concept of the "butt wink" is absolutely rubbish to begin with.

Is it really. Thats not what i read in the entire article -

"Let’s say there is a little “winking” (I keep putting it in quotes because the term is ****ing ridiculous) going on when barbell squatting. It’s unlikely that it’s caused by tight hamstrings since those hamstrings are allowing a full depth squat (with knees out). There are two reasons I’ve thought of for this happening. The first is related to the “over extended back thing” that is taught in the BW squat. If a trainee over extends their back under a load, the spinal column is now in an inefficient position to transfer force". - exactly my point on lumbar spine being asked to become mobile.

another - "You need your trunk to be straight when lifting so that your spine doesn’t look like a parabola (one that has the y coordinate squared). A coach with clean thumbs can take care of this".

Overall i think the OP has plenty of info there to work with

SanoVitae

Transform wrote: »

Is it really. Thats not what i read in the entire article

He specifically refers to an example of someone who was badly injured attempting to fix the "problem" that is the infamous butt wink. He also says he regularly hears about cases like this.

Aside from hearing about it regularly, a 70′s Big reader recently wrote in and told me they herniated a disc because they were trying to over-correct the horrid “butt wink”. That’s a damn shame

My point is that people are being made aware of a "problem", being told how to fix it and are then getting hurt following the advice of the person who diagnosed the "problem" in the first place.

Transform

i think its a very confused article as he states there is a problem with ant. pelvic tilt (as i have highlighted above) and then says its not a problem. My opinion is that if the op's back squat looks anything like that was demoed in the video then there are changes needed.

Overall i think the OP has enough info to go forwards

All the best

Remmy

Is that an anterior pelvic tilt or are you just happy to see me...

Hanley

The reason that guy is having trouble in the video is because his form is f*cking sh*t.

He's trying to do a wide stance multi-ply PL squat and attempting go to oly squat depth.

He HAS to sit back and lean forward cos he'd go ar5e over tit otherwise.

As for "butt winking" - sure, it's a problem that exists for people. But like I doubt it's going to cause any major issues if it's your ONLY problem (ie if youre not getting kicked forward and GM'n up as well... which could be caused by several things anyway)

SanoVitae

Transform wrote:

the article just confirms what i said to do with the exception of the pelvic length issue.

Transform wrote: »

i think its a very confused article

This thread is playing out exactly like this thread (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056138488) - i.e. you're emphasising the magnitude of what you perceive to be a significant problem (e.g. overpronation/butt winks), giving recommendations on how to solve the problem (e.g gait analysis) and then contradicting yourself within the very same thread (endorsing the article one moment, then criticising it the next).

This makes a sensible, constructive discussion impossible.

Transform

SanoVitae wrote: »

This thread is playing out exactly like this thread (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056138488) - i.e. you're emphasising the magnitude of what you perceive to be a significant problem (e.g. overpronation/butt winks), giving recommendations on how to solve the problem (e.g gait analysis) and then contradicting yourself within the very same thread (endorsing the article one moment, then criticising it the next).

This makes a sensible, constructive discussion impossible.

i have provided my advice and the OP can do what he likes with it

Plus you continually emphasise the importance of 'critical thinking' yet you provide very little in the way of concrete help which is disappointing as i know you like me are someone that has worked in fitness for a long time.


The info i provide is what i would suggest to ANY client and clients i have worked with that came to work and have worked with me.


Please keep in mind that the OP hurt his back doing squats in this way so is its a problem - YES for him and maybe no for others.

jugger0

Thanks for all the info lads. Id say 95% of everyone ive seen squat has had a butt wink of some sorts, yet they seem to be uninjured... ive been searching the internet and alot of people seem to say a bit of wink is ok and pretty much unavoidable, but for me the wink isnt ok and i dont want my injury to flare up again..

Hanley

How are you so sure you hurt your back because of it?

SanoVitae

Transform wrote: »

you continually emphasise the importance of 'critical thinking' yet you provide very little in the way of concrete help which is disappointing

Please elaborate as to what you mean.

The last example of help on the fitness forum was on the Pull-Up & Chin-Up thread, where I provided links to examples, demonstrating the difference between the two movements. I believe that qualifies as "concrete help" because 3 people following the thread thanked me for providing it.

I just happen to occassionally disagree with you, which is perhaps what you find disappointing. I'm not sure why you're linking critical thinking with the amount of help I give on the forum (what's the correlation?). Let me know what you mean and what exactly you find disappointing. Cheers.

jugger0

After deadlifts and squats my back would always be killing me, i went to a physio and he said it was because of my back rounding, its alot better now front squats and deadlifts dont kill my back anymore but im still not confident with back squats.

cmyk

jugger0 wrote: »

After deadlifts and squats my back would always be killing me, i went to a physio and he said it was because of my back rounding, its alot better now front squats and deadlifts dont kill my back anymore but im still not confident with back squats.

A video will be worth a thousand arguments, can you post one? Squat and deadlift. People can only speculate until they've actually seen what you're doing.

SanoVitae

cmyk wrote: »

A video will be worth a thousand arguments, can you post one? Squat and deadlift. People can only speculate until they've actually seen what you're doing.

+1

What you think is the problem may not actually be the problem itself. It's impossible to correct your own form when it's you yourself doing the squat or deadlift. Video analysis is always useful, especially when you have someone who knows what they're talking about to give you feedback. They can then identify what you're doing wrong and give you tips on how to correct your form.

Best of luck.

Barry.Oglesby

I've been around the block once or twice and I've never heard of a "butt wink" before people started reading the crossfit site. I'd also never heard of a "butt" before watching The Simpsons for the first time.

I'd imagine it's like a lot of things- and invented problem so others can sell an invented solution.

SanoVitae

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

I'd imagine it's like a lot of things- and invented problem so others can sell an invented solution.

So shall I take your name off the list for the Butt Wink Correction Weekend Workshop I'm running then?

You know it's only a matter of time before people are certified in it....

jugger0

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

I've been around the block once or twice and I've never heard of a "butt wink" before people started reading the crossfit site. I'd also never heard of a "butt" before watching The Simpsons for the first time.

I'd imagine it's like a lot of things- and invented problem so others can sell an invented solution.

you dont thinks its bad form? I broke my last camera taking a form video, im still waiting on my new one... if i could only back squat exactly the way i front squat id be set. As for my deadlift my form is pretty good, straight back no pain... my hips would be very low though.

kevpants

jugger0 wrote: »

if i could only back squat exactly the way i front squat id be set.

If by set you mean crashing to the floor then you're right. The weight's in a different place so you shouldn't blame your form for the lift being different. Personally my front squat looks like a man taking a bar out of a rack and gently lowering it onto some safety bars, but I don't let it bother me.

If you take a step back and look at the level fo the people working round the clock to fix their flirtacious buttocks you'd see they're all beginners. There are many cues you need to remember when squatting, this isn't one of them.

jugger0

kevpants wrote: »

If by set you mean crashing to the floor then you're right. The weight's in a different place so you shouldn't blame your form for the lift being different. Personally my front squat looks like a man taking a bar out of a rack and gently lowering it onto some safety bars, but I don't let it bother me.

If you take a step back and look at the level fo the people working round the clock to fix their flirtacious buttocks you'd see they're all beginners. There are many cues you need to remember when squatting, this isn't one of them.

so you think back rounding during a squat is ok? im just worried im going to slip a disc or something.

SanoVitae

kevpants wrote: »

flirtacious buttocks

Hanley

jugger0 wrote: »

so you think back rounding during a squat is ok? im just worried im going to slip a disc or something.

Did you read his post?

jugger0

Hanley wrote: »

Did you read his post?

YES... he says dont worry about it.

Hanley

jugger0 wrote: »

YES... he says dont worry about it.

Where?

jugger0

"There are many cues you need to remember when squatting, this isn't one of them"

foof

Hanley

jugger0 wrote: »

"There are many cues you need to remember when squatting, this isn't one of them"

foof

He didn't say not to worry about a rounded back.

He said, "don't 'butt wink'" isn't a cue that will stop you from 'butt winking'. So yup, that's not something you should worry about.

kevpants

jugger0 wrote: »

so you think back rounding during a squat is ok? im just worried im going to slip a disc or something.

If you round your back during a squat it's bad but it's not because of your butt wink. God I hate that phrase.

Here's test for you.

Stand up. Do a butt wink.

Then, while standing, pinch your shoulder blades together and puff up your chest. Try to butt wink.

Try to mentally cue the shoulder blades and chest thing next time you're squatting. Forget about your bink (I've abbreviated it now) and like all of life's problems it will go away eventually.

Magic Eight Ball

Here's my 'butt wink'.. don't look directly at it!

Hanley

Magic Eight Ball wrote: »

Here's my 'butt wink'.. don't look directly at it!

That proves bad squats are encouraged in IP.

itsallaboutheL

Magic Eight Ball wrote: »

Here's my 'butt wink'.. don't look directly at it!

How the hell was that never noticed before?

SanoVitae

But can you wink on both sides? That's the true test - only the world's top winkers can manage it.

Magic Eight Ball

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

How the hell was that never noticed before?

I ask myself that question everyday, believe me.
Considering it only took 1 rep for a certain coach to spot it, video it and publicly screen the horror show haha.