David Cameron and multiculturalism

Dudess

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12371994

Controversial sentiments and expected reactions - from the left: "He's being racist" (don't think he is, however it's a shame he made so much specific mention of muslims), from the right: "Yeah! Sock it to them immigints!"

So, what do you think?

/puts can opener back in drawer, watches worms slither out of can...

Kasabian

Dudess you are evil.

Grabs cigs*

epgc3fyqirnbsx

Interculturalism is something that any modern society actually needs to have.

Multiculturalism on the other hand doesn't work within a country, England is destroyed with it and they're only beginning to see some of the problems

Tasty worms

Stinicker

Dudess wrote: »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12371994

Controversial sentiments and expected reactions - from the left: "He's being racist" (don't think he is, however it's a shame he made so much specific mention of muslims), from the right: "Yeah! Sock it to them immigints!"

So, what do you think?

/puts can opener back in drawer, watches worms slither out of can...

AKA Trolling

Wolfe Tone

Damn muslims


Nothing like a good dose of the aul racism to bolster nationalism



Seriously though people need to integrate.

brianthebard

Are people just copy and pasting threads from the politics forum to AH these days?

Red Hand

Get rid of all countries. Let everyone be free. Nobody wear any clothes.

Cornflakes are great.

Wolfe Tone

brianthebard wrote: »

Are people just copy and pasting threads from the politics forum to AH these days?

Let them do it, I still have a few days on my ban

PrincessLola

(This thread won't end well lol)

Seriously tho, I don't think he's being racist I mean he has a point, people who move to other countries should try to intergrate with that country's culture. Maybe I'm wrong but immigrants seem to intergrate much better in America. (I could be wrong about that..)

Marcus.Aurelius

Hopefully the other countries racked with integration problems will learn something from Cameron's statements. If they hadn't bowed to every liberal whim and condemned their own culture for others that were sometimes vastly less civilised (not always) they might have suceeded in true integration.

You want to live in another country? Live as they do and truly integrate, otherwise get lost. That should have been the backbone of any country's immigration rules, the British, French, Dutch, Germans, Norwegians, Swedes etc., have discovered this succinct fact all too late.

/Damn you Dudess!

Dudess

Stinicker wrote: »

AKA Trolling

Well no. It's something of interest to me, but bound to cause some extreme reactions here - so what I said was more of an acknowledgement of the way things can turn out on AH.
Don't get how it's a copy and paste from Politics either - it's a current event, these are not confined to Politics.

Stinicker

Dudess wrote: »

Well no. It's something of interest to me, but bound to cause some extreme reactions here - so what I said was more of an acknowledgement of the way things can turn out on AH.
Don't get how it's a copy and paste from Politics either - it's a current event, these are not confined to Politics.

Fair enough, I have been of similar viewpoints to Cameron and in Ireland we need to abandon such PC liberal bullcrap also, if your in Ireland we don't want to hear about your customs or culture, this is Ireland and we are a Christian nation who have specific values and if you want to build a mosque go build it in Saudi Arabia or better still try building it in Israel.

BraziliaNZ

Should we even have an opinion on this given 90% of our population (or some crazy figure like that) will be moving to different countries in the next couple of years?

Corsendonk

Didn't Merkel say the same thing last month. Obviouslt there is the view in Europe that it has failed and created ghetto's within cities.

Red Hand

Stinicker wrote: »

...and we are a Christian nation who have specific values and if you want to build a mosque go build it in Saudi Arabia or better still try building it in Israel.

We are? I know that a lot/alot of people don't even know the basics of their religion/don't go to mass except for getting married/funerals and are fairly vague about God/souls etc.

Fair enough, it's in the consitution that the catholic church has a special place, but it doesn't reflect reality.

Marcus.Aurelius

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

Should we even have an opinion on this given 90% of our population (or some crazy figure like that) will be moving to different countries in the next couple of years?

I would expect Irish people to integrate in whatever country they move to. Otherwise they should stay home. It's what we should expect of immigrants to Ireland, and other countries expect if of our emigrants.

Logical Fallacy

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

Should we even have an opinion on this given 90% of our population (or some crazy figure like that) will be moving to different countries in the next couple of years?

Jesus, we didn't loose 90% during the Famine.

Might want to check that figure.

Multiculturalism is perfectly OK, as long as they don't piss off the natives.
Classic example is the Chinese way, they all live in one place and create a "chinatown" but integrate completly when with the natives when outside the chinatown.

When they expand those chinatowns though, there can be major issues as they tend to crowd out the neighbours and they leave.

BraziliaNZ

Marcus.Aurelius wrote: »

I would expect Irish people to integrate in whatever country they move to. Otherwise they should stay home. It's what we should expect of immigrants to Ireland, and other countries expect if of our emigrants.

Well I hope you like AFL and pies

ejmaztec

Stinicker wrote: »

Fair enough, I have been of similar viewpoints to Cameron and in Ireland we need to abandon such PC liberal bullcrap also, if your in Ireland we don't want to hear about your customs or culture, this is Ireland and we are a Christian nation who have specific values and if you want to build a mosque go build it in Saudi Arabia or better still try building it in Israel.

Who's we?

People can still integrate and retain their customs, culture and build religious structures.

BraziliaNZ

ejmaztec wrote: »

Who's we?

People can still integrate and retain their customs, culture and build religious structures.

Yes, a mix of cultures is great I think, makes places more interesting

Marcus.Aurelius

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

Well I hope you like AFL and pies

Not all Aussies like pies or AFL. I'll try the pies but I can't make promises about AFL. But if I commit a crime I should be punished just as severely as any Australian, not allowed special privileges for my culture or nationality.

Dudess

Stinicker wrote: »

Fair enough, I have been of similar viewpoints to Cameron and in Ireland we need to abandon such PC liberal bullcrap also

I don't think Cameron is thinking along the same lines as yours, which are pretty extreme. What's "PC" and "liberal" about it? Why does it always have to be reduced to people wanting to be the above? You discredit your arguments with that tired language tbh...

if your in Ireland we don't want to hear about your customs or culture

Don't we?

better still try building it in Israel.

Right, well the last charming comment very much outlines where you stand...

Stinicker

ejmaztec wrote: »

Who's we?

People can still integrate and retain their customs, culture and build religious structures.

I don't consider Jihad or the stoning of women to be compatible with Irish life especially Female Genital Mutilation where African Muslims mutilate a woman for life so to prevent her from enjoying sex and maybe committing adultery. Yet the liberals defend this under the guise of Multiculturalism.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »

Get rid of all countries. Let everyone be free. Nobody wear any clothes.

Cornflakes are great.

Sorry, no. Ridiculous idea.

Cornflakes are awful.

Logical Fallacy

Stinicker wrote: »

Fair enough, I have been of similar viewpoints to Cameron and in Ireland we need to abandon such PC liberal bullcrap also, if your in Ireland we don't want to hear about your customs or culture, this is Ireland and we are a Christian nation who have specific values and if you want to build a mosque go build it in Saudi Arabia or better still try building it in Israel.

LoL, you are one funny person.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Dudess wrote: »

I don't think Cameron is thinking along the same lines as yours, which are pretty extreme. What's "PC" and "liberal" about it? Why does it always have to be reduced to people wanting to be the above? You discredit your arguments with that tired language tbh...

Don't we?

Right, well the last charming comment very much outlines where you stand...

You know as well as I do, the moment someone uses those terms, you know you're dealing with someone who has no idea what they are talking about.

Cameron also mentioned embracing modern European liberal ideals. I would have though multicultualism would be one of those ideals (be the idea right or wrong).

Do I think it's failed? I don't think enough people have done enough to have it succeed and too many have tried hard to make sure it doesn't work.

Grasshoppa

Stinicker wrote: »

I don't consider Jihad or the stoning of women to be compatible with Irish life especially Female Genital Mutilation where African Muslims mutilate a woman for life so to prevent her from enjoying sex and maybe committing adultery. Yet the liberals defend this under the guise of Multiculturalism.

Liberals defend FGM?

Are you parodying right-wingers?

Links234

Dudess wrote: »

from the left: "He's being racist" (don't think he is, however it's a shame he made so much specific mention of muslims)

well, the fact that he makes so much comment of Muslims is telling and perhaps it's not an issue with race he has, but an issue over religious ideology.

Red Hand

Stinicker wrote: »

I don't consider Jihad or the stoning of women to be compatible with Irish life especially Female Genital Mutilation where African Muslims mutilate a woman for life so to prevent her from enjoying sex and maybe committing adultery. Yet the liberals defend this under the guise of Multiculturalism.

Yes, we do. I will lay my life on the line so that Female Genital Mutilation can be carried out in Ireland. I also whole heartedly endorse suicide bombing, Nazism and Margaret Thatcher.

Ikky Poo2: You don't deserve the same rights as the rest of us. I shall make you and your kind wear a cornflake shaped star when us liberals come into power.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »

Yes, we do. I will lay my life on the line so that Female Genital Mutilation can be carried out in Ireland. I also whole heartedly endorse suicide bombing, Nazism and Margaret Thatcher.

Ikky Poo2: You don't deserve the same rights as the rest of us. I shall make you and your kind wear a cornflake shaped star when us liberals come into power.

Dude, relax!

I respect the rights of the Cornflake People - I just think they're awful!

Lumen

I fúcking hate whiney little-Englanders. They should all piss off to Norfolk where they can celebrate living in a cultural desert.

What Cameron really means is that he doesn't want to let more poor people in unless they agree not to get all uppity.

"Active liberalism" isn't working out so well for France.

Dudess

Stinicker wrote: »

I don't consider Jihad or the stoning of women to be compatible with Irish life especially Female Genital Mutilation where African Muslims mutilate a woman for life so to prevent her from enjoying sex and maybe committing adultery. Yet the liberals defend this under the guise of Multiculturalism.

"The liberals"? And no, they don't. Don't be silly.

Links234

this thread is dumber than a bag of hammers, I'm outta here :pac:

biko

Sorry Dudess but for now I think the thread in Politics will have to suffice
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056170295

biko

Reconsidered, opening this up again.

This is the speech by Cameron

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmjNBGYB6DA

ejmaztec

Stinicker wrote: »

I don't consider Jihad or the stoning of women to be compatible with Irish life especially Female Genital Mutilation where African Muslims mutilate a woman for life so to prevent her from enjoying sex and maybe committing adultery. Yet the liberals defend this under the guise of Multiculturalism.

Oh yes, I'm pretty sure that the laws of the land will allow all of these quaint customs, no trouble.

Who are these strange liberals?

It wasn't me!

I think if you take his comments as a reflection of a broad reality then it'll sound paranoid, but if you take them as a statement of solid principle, then it's a good argument. Cultural and social integration isn't about coming to a country and picking up their mannerisms and discarding your own identity. It's about coming to some sort of agreement whereby both cultures can exist side by side without impinging on one another. As a society we decide what's acceptable in terms of social interaction. To us, female genital mutilation is awful, and we do not tolerate it in our society, regardless of the practitioner, and in Ireland in the all too recent past, a man could rape his wife at will as the marriage was considered to have implied blanket consent. This isn't some stupid "liberal" "PC" (And let's face it, I don't think any of those terms have been used correctly so far in this thread) agenda. People should be free to live here and to assert their own unique cultural identity within the boundaries of our laws, what we believe to be acceptable, as decided by our own relatively narrow society.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Think he hit the nail on the head here. And I don't see how anyone could have a problem with this part unless they have an agenda:

David Cameron wrote:

Under the doctrine of state multiculturalism, we have encouraged different cultures to live separate lives, apart from each other and the mainstream. We have failed to provide a vision of society to which they feel they want to belong. We have even tolerated these segregated communities behaving in ways that run counter to our values.

“So when a white person holds objectionable views – racism, for example – we rightly condemn them. But when equally unacceptable views or practices have come from someone who isn’t white, we’ve been too cautious, frankly even fearful, to stand up to them,” Mr Cameron told an international security conference in Munich.

The line I've bolded is particularly important. I think ethnic ghettos are a disgusting state of affairs and Ireland should learn from the mistakes of Britain and enact legislation to prevent them from emerging here.

aDeener

Dudess wrote: »

Well no. It's something of interest to me, but bound to cause some extreme reactions here - so what I said was more of an acknowledgement of the way things can turn out on AH.
Don't get how it's a copy and paste from Politics either - it's a current event, these are not confined to Politics.

you never gave your own opinion though?

ejmaztec

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Think he hit the nail on the head here. And I don't see how anyone could have a problem with this part unless they have an agenda:



The line I've bolded is particularly important. I think ethnic ghettos are a disgusting state of affairs and Ireland should learn from the mistakes of Britain and enact legislation to prevent them from emerging here.

I think that the ghettos in the UK resulted for two reasons. Immigrants from the various countries of the "old empire" arrived in various parts of the UK where jobs were available, and new waves of immigrants from the same countries followed. It was natural that they would want to stick together, because of language and cultural differences.

The second reason is that there were no race-relation laws, so the immigrants couldn't really go beyond these areas, even if they wanted to, because no-one wanted to sell or rent houses to them, and the racists couldn't be brought to book over this.

By the time race-relation laws appeared on the scene, in the late 60s I think, the ghettos had become permanent fixtures.

Even after the laws came in, this didn't stop racists trying to control who could live where, or who could buy or rent their houses, and they became prosecuted martyrs for their racist agenda.

While immigrants' descendants are more spread out across the UK, the old ghetto areas are still there.

The same situation shouldn't happen in Ireland, because the laws already exist to prevent it.

Bottle_of_Smoke

ejmaztec wrote: »

I think that the ghettos in the UK resulted for two reasons. Immigrants from the various countries of the "old empire" arrived in various parts of the UK where jobs were available, and new waves of immigrants from the same countries followed. It was natural that they would want to stick together, because of language and cultural differences.

The second reason is that there were no race-relation laws, so the immigrants couldn't really go beyond these areas, even if they wanted to, because no-one wanted to sell or rent houses to them, and the racists couldn't be brought to book over this.

By the time race-relation laws appeared on the scene, in the late 60s I think, the ghettos had become permanent fixtures.

Even after the laws came in, this didn't stop racists trying to control who could live where, or who could buy or rent their houses, and they became prosecuted martyrs for their racist agenda.

While immigrants' descendants are more spread out across the UK, the old ghetto areas are still there.

The same situation shouldn't happen in Ireland, because the laws already exist to prevent it.

Some good points there. We don't have the racism problems they did which of course was a major contributing factor. I would still be wary, have heard some school in Balbriggan is all African now, as well as areas areound SCR mosque in Dublin disproportionate levels of south Asian people.

I can understand why immigrants do this when in a new country, like the Irish did in Boston, just I also think it is bad for the country in the long term.

biko

What I would like to see is some proposals from Muslim organisations in Ireland on what they think should be done here.
Can the new Muslims, born here, integrate into Irish society fully? Is this even what Muslims want? Or do they prefer to live side by side using Sharia whereas we use regular Irish law?

The number of Muslims in UK is about 2.8 million (about 4.6%) whereas in Ireland it is aprox 43,000 (less than 1%).

73% believe they are fully integrated into Irish society, with 77% saying they feel accepted here.
More than a third—36%—would prefer Ireland to be ruled under Sharia law, while 37% would like Ireland to be governed as an Islamic state
(5 yo numbers)

Certain aspects of Sharia are already in Ireland, it doesn't mean they're bad.

Thu 02 Feb 2010 Bill to accommodate Sharia Law
THE FINANCE Bill is expected to accommodate the principles of Sharia Law in a bid to attract business from the Islamic world.
The Minister for Finance will publish the Bill later today, and it is expected to include a number of sections designed to boost the Republic’s attractiveness to foreign investment.

pragmatic1

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

You know as well as I do, the moment someone uses those terms, you know you're dealing with someone who has no idea what they are talking about.

Cameron also mentioned embracing modern European liberal ideals. I would have though multicultualism would be one of those ideals (be the idea right or wrong).

Do I think it's failed? I don't think enough people have done enough to have it succeed and too many have tried hard to make sure it doesn't work.

One of the fundamentals of liberalism is freedom of speech, this has been compromised as a result of multiculturism.

Phill Ewinn

Good points here. There's also a cost involved. I'd imagine that's what cameron is thinking about TBH. No one can predict the way society or the cost of several different cultures living in the UK. Imagine a simple census, if half the bloody people don't want to integrate how do you cost for them?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

pragmatic1 wrote: »

One of the fundamentals of liberalism is freedom of speech, this has been compromised as a result of multiculturism.

Not entirely sure what it is you think you're restricted from saying, but there are two things about freedom of speech to factor in to observation while reading the above:

1 - it's as much a conservative ideal as it is liberal

2 - No one has complete freedom of speech - go around Dandalk waving a giant union jack and wearing a Rangers shirt while singing "God Save The Queen" through a megaphone and you'll see what I mean.

RichieC

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

1 - it's as much a conservative ideal as it is liberal

Boll*cks.

Conservatism is and always has been about maintaining the established order. if removing the rights of certain unwanted types helped those ends they'd be all for it.

smokedeels

I’ve no time for Cameron, I’m keeping my “Enoch was a dope” t-shirt, it's got such fine stitching on dope.

jackiebaron

PrincessLola wrote: »

(This thread won't end well lol)

Seriously tho, I don't think he's being racist I mean he has a point, people who move to other countries should try to intergrate with that country's culture. Maybe I'm wrong but immigrants seem to intergrate much better in America. (I could be wrong about that..)

Nah. You've got your latino ghettoes as well where everyone speaks Spanish. They have their own tv and radio stations in spanish, etc.
I've known Irish who just live in the Irish pub and hang out with Irish.

conorhal

ejmaztec wrote: »

Oh yes, I'm pretty sure that the laws of the land will allow all of these quaint customs, no trouble.

Who are these strange liberals?

Well... Judge Kevin Haugh for one:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/1007/igbinediono.html

A Nigerian man accused of reckless endangerment in relation to a home circumcision he carried out in Waterford two years ago has been found not guilty.
Osagie Igbinedion was found not guilty this afternoon by a jury of 10 men and two women at Waterford Circuit Court.
31-year-old Mr Igbinedion, who lives in Kilkenny, left the court this afternoon in the company of his wife Kathleen, who a few minutes earlier had burst into tears as the verdict was delivered.
It had taken the jury one and a half hours to reach their verdict in this case, the first of its kind in Ireland.
The court had been told 29-day-old Collis Osaighe had died from haemorrhage and shock due to bleeding. He had been circumcised a number of hours previously by Mr Igbinedion.
In directing the jury, Judge Kevin Haugh said that they could not bring what he called their white western values to bear when they were deciding this case.
Afterwards, Mr Igbinedion said he would like to continue carrying out circumcisions but will only do so if allowed to by the Government. He said most Nigerians would like to see the procedure being available and done in hospitals.

walshb

Dudess wrote: »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12371994

Controversial sentiments and expected reactions - from the left: "He's being racist" (don't think he is, however it's a shame he made so much specific mention of muslims), from the right: "Yeah! Sock it to them immigints!"

So, what do you think?

/puts can opener back in drawer, watches worms slither out of can...

Camerom, the etonian, the Englishman, the imperialist, is only saying what most ordinary Englishmen are feeling. They don't want Islamists, or any other foreigners taking over in their homeland.

It's been proved all over Europe, integration of different cultures just does not work.