sarkozy is anti irish.

BeeDI

So little Hitler ....... I mean napoleon is at his rabble rousing again regarding European tax policies. He is determined to force Ireland to give up our low corporation tax. Isn't it time our taoiseach, gave him an unmercifull public rebuke. We should Recall that russian diplomat we xpelled and immediately expel a few frogs. Stop all this faffin around.

whiteonion

When France helps bailing out Ireland off course they will have some opinions about how we in Ireland collect tax revenues.

Sand

OP - How do you feel about Anglo-Irish and Seanie Fitzpatrick? Thats how the rest of the EU feels about Ireland and Cowen.

Sarkozy is just playing to his voters.

markesmith

Yeah, come on BeeDi. Sarkozy's entitled to an opinion on this, doesn't mean he's anti-Irish. You're adding two and two to get five.

JOSman

As far as I'm aware (could be wrong) the more staff you employ in France the less your corporate tax liability is. But don't know what the lower taxation level goes to.

RichardAnd

BeeDI wrote: »

So little Hitler ....... I mean napoleon is at his rabble rousing again regarding European tax policies. He is determined to force Ireland to give up our low corporation tax. Isn't it time our taoiseach, gave him an unmercifull public rebuke. We should Recall that russian diplomat we xpelled and immediately expel a few frogs. Stop all this faffin around.

Don't compare Napoleon to SarKozy. Napoleon was from Corsica, not France, and he was a great man, Sarkozy is not.

Amhran Nua

whiteonion wrote: »

When France helps bailing out Ireland

You mean, when France collects a sweet profit from its loan to Ireland, to pay for banks that Ireland shouldn't have been responsible for.

The whole thing is purely political, France hasn't balanced its books for the last thirty five years running and has no standing to look down at us, we've had plenty of surpluses in that time. The reality here is Sarkozy is in deep trouble with his own voters, especially over the retirement age thing, and needs a scapegoat. Poisoning international relations and doing great damage to our tourist industry comes a poor second to that in his mind.

sollar

Sarkozy is a bit of a bully and a coward i think. He has been against our corp tax for years but now that auld paddy is on the ground he is sticking the boot in.

Daroxtar

Godwinned OP. /Thread

anthony4335

The one thing I cannot understand is if he has such a problem with it been an unfair advantage to Ireland in attracting foreign investment ,he has always got the the option as leader of his country at reducing the French rate to match or beat the Irish rate. Why must we be forced into conforming with the French. He has had this bug up his behind way before the bailout, Cowen should have stood up and told him where to go . But that would have been asking too much from the coward.

gigino

whiteonion wrote: »

When France helps bailing out Ireland off course they will have some opinions about how we in Ireland collect tax revenues.

I guess the way of the world is that he who pays the piper calls the tune.

For many decades we done better out of the European taxpayer in Germany, Britain + France + Holland etc than anyone else.
Then we as a country borrowed too much + went mad. Of course they should not have given so much. Now the game is up. We are looked on as a low tax, corrupt little "cowboy" island, with light touch regulation and Taoiseachs who fax the IMF from the pub, and senior politicians who get digouts from "de lads" in Manchester and support themselves by winning money on the horses and who do not have a bank account. And who later get their photo taken in a cupboard! ( after retiring with a bigger payout than their own politicians get ).

Its only a matter of time before they say " no more money from us unless you stop undercutting us on the tax rate."

mohawk

gigino wrote: »

Its only a matter of time before they say " no more money from us unless you stop undercutting us on the tax rate."

And how would we pay them back if we raised our corporation rate and all the multinationals decide to feck off to Singapore or china or elsewhere? Our unemployment rate is over 13% and they want us be be even more uncompetitive?

BeeDI

Hey, didn't France have to be rescued not once but twice in the last century, when they rolled over and capitulated to the Germans. Don't let's listen to any crap from sarky.

gigino

mohawk wrote: »

And how would we pay them back if we raised our corporation rate and all the multinationals decide to feck off to Singapore or china or elsewhere? Our unemployment rate is over 13% and they want us be be even more uncompetitive?

They are more worried about their own voters / unemployment.

In reality we may never pay anyone back anyway , + will probably default. Even in the heady days of the celtic tiger we were getting many billions of aid from the EC....as we have been for decades. We are a long way from breaking even, never mind paying anyone back.

blue_steel

whiteonion wrote: »

When France helps bailing out Ireland off course they will have some opinions about how we in Ireland collect tax revenues.

France is helping to bail out Irish banks not Ireland. They are doing this to save their own banks and make a decent profit on the loan. Simple as. Sark should be told to go f**k himself.

steve9859

BeeDI wrote: »

So little Hitler ....... I mean napoleon is at his rabble rousing again regarding European tax policies. He is determined to force Ireland to give up our low corporation tax. Isn't it time our taoiseach, gave him an unmercifull public rebuke. We should Recall that russian diplomat we xpelled and immediately expel a few frogs. Stop all this faffin around.

Nonsense! He is pro-France, as I would expect him to be if I were French! He wants rid our tax rate to help France, not because he has any personal animosity toward the Irish. And we owe him money so he has a right to a say.

It's just business (which of course is what Tony Soprano would say before he put a bullet in your head!)

NIMAN

We would not be in such a mess if some of the major bondholders and those who lent money recklessly to Irish banks, i.e. the German and French banks, had to be repaid for taking a punt.

We would recover in a couple of years if they didn't blackmail us into paying every cent back that was risked by idiots on the continent.

So I join the list of people who say Fcuk him.

steve9859

NIMAN wrote: »

We would not be in such a mess if some of the major bondholders and those who lent money recklessly to Irish banks, i.e. the German and French banks, had to be repaid for taking a punt.

We would recover in a couple of years if they didn't blackmail us into paying every cent back that was risked by idiots on the continent.

So I join the list of people who say Fcuk him.

I'm not suggesting for one second that we dint say Fcuk him!! Just responding to the OP who suggested he is anti Irish. I'm suggesting he is not purposefully picking on Ireland, he is doing what is best for France (even tho the end result is much the same)

mohawk

steve9859 wrote: »

Nonsense! He is pro-France, as I would expect him to be if I were French! He wants rid our tax rate to help France, not because he has any personal animosity toward the Irish. And we owe him money so he has a right to a say.

It's just business (which of course is what Tony Soprano would say before he put a bullet in your head!)

He is deluded if he thinks us changing our corporation tax will help France. Does he really think that the multinationals will leave Ireland for France?

We are a tiny nation on outskirts of Europe and a low corporation tax is all we have to offer. Hopefully this is all just words to make the French public happy.

NIMAN

in all the debates about getting Irl to lower their corporation tax, I have never once heard anyone suggest to the likes of the French "why don't you lower yours to 12.5%".

BeeDI

Best thing about the little man is Carla:cool:

P. Breathnach

BeeDI wrote: »

Hey, didn't France have to be rescued not once but twice in the last century, when they rolled over and capitulated to the Germans. Don't let's listen to any crap from sarky.

It's ugly when those who fought alongside the French say such things; it's pathetic when those who stayed out of the conflict say them.

steve9859

P. Breathnach wrote: »

It's ugly when those who fought alongside the French say such things; it's pathetic when those who stayed out of the conflict say them.

+1

Dannyboy83

P. Breathnach wrote: »

It's ugly when those who fought alongside the French say such things; it's pathetic when those who stayed out of the conflict say them.

The ironic thing about people saying it is that it's not even true.
Many of the French laid down their lives so that the Brits could evacuate!
This seems to get totally overlooked.
God damn cheese eating surrender monkeys!

p.s.
Have a French rifle for sale, never been fired, only been dropped once.

HellFireClub

He's dead right, the same logic that was behind our low tax "let's all deal in property" policy, is driving this stupidity that says we stick to our 12.5% CT rate. How come countries like Germany can get one fine without busts and booms and have stable confident growth year on year, without a rediculously low rate of 12.5% CT? We are deluding ourselves that these multinationals are here for life, they aren't! Where's Dell now?!?

BeeDI

P. Breathnach wrote: »

It's ugly when those who fought alongside the French say such things; it's pathetic when those who stayed out of the conflict say them.

Have you any idea how many irishmen died in both world wars?

later12

HellFireClub wrote: »

How come countries like Germany can get one fine without busts and booms and have stable confident growth year on year, without a rediculously low rate of 12.5% CT?

Efficiency, capital infrastrcure, and wage restraint.

It's pretty obvious why Ireland has to compensate.

swampgas

NIMAN wrote: »

in all the debates about getting Irl to lower their corporation tax, I have never once heard anyone suggest to the likes of the French "why don't you lower yours to 12.5%".

Suppose that France did lower its rate to 12.5% specially for MNCs - what would we do then? Lower ours to 10%? 5%? 0%?

We shouldn't assume that we can depend on the 12.5% rate forever - we need a stronger base for our economy than that.

Amhran Nua

HellFireClub wrote: »

He's dead right, the same logic that was behind our low tax "let's all deal in property" policy, is driving this stupidity that says we stick to our 12.5% CT rate. How come countries like Germany can get one fine without busts and booms and have stable confident growth year on year, without a rediculously low rate of 12.5% CT? We are deluding ourselves that these multinationals are here for life, they aren't! Where's Dell now?!?

On the plus side, we are still allowed to sing our own national anthem, not having attempted to commit genocide within living memory. While a bit glib, this does serve to underline a point, in that even an otherwise perfectly capable people can be lead astray by incompetent leadership, and our electoral system is almost guaranteed to produce such leadership, which naturally extends to economic growth as well.

Of course the full answer is a lot more complex, Germany was a world class industrial power while Ireland was still struggling to get out from under the heel of the British Empire, which is not an excuse of course, but it is an excellent place to start.

At the end of the day, we can't depend in the long term on our CTR, we need to focus on building our own domestic niche industries, like other small European countries. In the short and medium term however, we will have great difficulty prospering without it.

P. Breathnach

BeeDI wrote: »

Have you any idea how many irishmen died in both world wars?

Yes, including people connected to me. What you said is still reprehensible.

yosemite_sam

BeeDI wrote: »

So little Hitler ....... I mean napoleon is at his rabble rousing again regarding European tax policies. He is determined to force Ireland to give up our low corporation tax. Isn't it time our taoiseach, gave him an unmercifull public rebuke. We should Recall that russian diplomat we xpelled and immediately expel a few frogs. Stop all this faffin around.

We had to go cap in hand to him, what do you expect

uteotw

The problem isn't really the 12.5% rate, the problem is in fact the loophole that allows the money to leave Ireland wihtout being taxed, then leave the EU without being taxed again,
It's called the 'Double Irish Dutch Sandwich' and has been mentioned many times.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-10-21/google-2-4-rate-shows-how-60-billion-u-s-revenue-lost-to-tax-loopholes.html

About WWII remarks, I think the fact that De Valera sent condolences to the Nazis after Hitler's death says it all about Irish politicians.
Also, I wonder if anyone saw that documentary 'The Shamrock and the Swastika' a few years back? The irish history during WWII is not all glorious.

At least politicians in France, Germany have been educated and prepared to run the highest institutions of the country. They are competent. I'm not saying that some are not crooks, but I prefer competent crooks to incompetent crooks. They also belong to parties that have national and international policies and not just town/local.

manic mailman

mohawk wrote: »

And how would we pay them back if we raised our corporation rate and all the multinationals decide to feck off to Singapore or china or elsewhere? Our unemployment rate is over 13% and they want us be be even more uncompetitive?

This is the same question i've been wondering about. But my opinion is that other european countries couldn't give a feck about Ireland's long term future so they won't be sorry if our corp tax rose and a lot of MNC's left as a result. I reckon many would says it's no more than we deserve.

Amhran Nua

uteotw wrote: »

The irish history during WWII is not all glorious.

As opposed to say the German history?

later12

uteotw wrote: »

The problem isn't really the 12.5% rate, the problem is in fact the loophole that allows the money to leave Ireland wihtout being taxed, then leave the EU without being taxed again,
It's called the 'Double Irish Dutch Sandwich' and has been mentioned many times.

The profit is taxed before it leaves Ireland. Google pays 12.5% tax on about 7.5 billion euros to Ireland according to your own article, is it just me or is it strange that you use the word 'problem' regarding this, particularly so since the issue of how much of this Irish tax is really originiating from Irish profits is so questionable?

swampgas

uteotw wrote: »

The problem isn't really the 12.5% rate, the problem is in fact the loophole that allows the money to leave Ireland wihtout being taxed, then leave the EU without being taxed again,
It's called the 'Double Irish Dutch Sandwich' and has been mentioned many times.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-10-21/google-2-4-rate-shows-how-60-billion-u-s-revenue-lost-to-tax-loopholes.html

Thanks for the link.

To a simpleton like myself, it suggests that Ireland could have a higher CTR and MNCs wouldn't care that much, as long as they could still use the DIDS (Double Irish Double Sandwich). What am I missing?

*Edit* I think later10's post (just before mine) addresses this ...

later12

swampgas wrote: »

To a simpleton like myself, it suggests that Ireland could have a higher CTR and MNCs wouldn't care that much, as long as they could still use the DIDS (Double Irish Double Sandwich). What am I missing?

Among other things, that they could transfer that tax structure to another low CT jurisdiction, and the fact that there many companies in Ireland genuinely do locate because of the CT rate and employ thousands of Irish workers (including Google, by the way)

ilovesleep

Iceland damned for letting their banks fail. Ireland damned for co-operating with the EU and saving the banks. You just cant win with the EU. CT is the only thing keeping Ireland on life support and they want to cut it from us. This is the thanks we get for saving the banks and putting the failing euro on life support to save the stronger economies until they are ready to kick the PIIG countries even further.

MyKeyG

The rest of the world are anti-France anyway so I don't care what the man says.

Mountainsandh

So OP, I'm a frog in Ireland, should I take the franco-Irish kiddies with me or should I just head off on my own ?

You could have stated your political point without lowering yourself to a "frogs go home" suggestion. Doesn't help your credibility much.

Oh, and that's one less humongous tax take for the Irish government if I do head off.

edit : well, it certainly feels humongous from my side ...

uteotw

later10 wrote: »

The profit is taxed before it leaves Ireland. Google pays 12.5% tax on about 7.5 billion euros to Ireland according to your own article, is it just me or is it strange that you use the word 'problem' regarding this, particularly so since the issue of how much of this Irish tax is really originiating from Irish profits is so questionable?

I'm not sure where you got the 7.5 billion, but what the article is about is that what ever is being taxed at 12.5% is not everything that should be taxed, it's actually very little. Quote form the artcile "The method takes advantage of Irish tax law to legally shuttle profits into and out of subsidiaries there, largely escaping the country’s 12.5 percent income tax."

The article says title says it all, Google paid 2.4% tax on its profits.

swampgas wrote: »

Thanks for the link.

To a simpleton like myself, it suggests that Ireland could have a higher CTR and MNCs wouldn't care that much, as long as they could still use the DIDS (Double Irish Double Sandwich). What am I missing?

Not all companies are set up like Google, Microsoft, IBM ... some actually pay the 12.5% and that would impact them a lot. As later10, the Google and others could leave to another place with low CT if they don't like the new rate or if the loophole gets closed.

ArtSmart

meh.

it's coming to election time.


mind you, didnt Sarkozy ruffle EU feather with his protectionist policies to their car industry?

all's fair....etc

gigino

uteotw wrote: »

The article says title says it all, Google paid 2.4% tax on its profits.

bottom line : we are a corrupt little upstart of a nation, located off an island in the atlantic, with light touch regulation and biffo running the show from the pub...and we are an embarassment to the EC and costing them billions in lost revenue..

Duiske

Sarkozy keeps getting the blame over this issue, but he is just dancing along to Angela Merkel's tune. She wants an EU pact, agreed outside the Lisbon framework, to harmonize Govt spending, wages, pensions and business tax's.
And she wants them the same as one particular country. Anyone care to guess which one ?

Germany, France push euro-zone policy changes to help stabilize regional economy.

The effort is being spearheaded by German Chancellor Angela Merkel and was endorsed Friday at a Brussels summit of European leaders by French President Nicolas Sarkozy.

Under the plan, euro-zone countries would be required to cede some sovereignty about taxation, budgeting and other policies to the European Union and would probably be pressured to keep their deficits in line with the German model

.

ArtSmart

look, without Europe Ireland would be a backward, priest ridden (em, metaphorically, *cough*) poverty stricken, wet rock.

anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool, in my humble opinion.

eoin5

The media is spinning this all up. Theres no way they would force a change that would risk us defaulting on our loans, its silly. Its just doing the equivilant of moaning at the weather, naught can be done.

Anyone hear Barry O'Leary saying on the radio the french corporate tax works out at around 9% when everything is considered? If thats the case its just an argument regarding transparancy.

Amhran Nua

ArtSmart wrote: »

look, without Europe Ireland would be a backward, priest ridden (em, metaphorically, *cough*) poverty stricken, wet rock.

anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool, in my humble opinion.

Hmm. Europeans have been slaughtering one another with great gusto and enthusiasm for hundreds of years, the latest episode was particularly nasty and within living memory. I don't think we need to be taking lessons on societal cohesion from that quarter. Fiscal conservatism maybe.

ArtSmart

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Hmm. Europeans have been slaughtering one another with great gusto and enthusiasm for hundreds of years, the latest episode was particularly nasty and within living memory. I don't think we need to be taking lessons on societal cohesion from that quarter. Fiscal conservatism maybe.

Hmmmm. Yes, whilst Paddy was dancing through the Daises onwards towards the crossroads to swing out of a fair maiden before squatting down to swig potato wine and regale the assembled tribe with tales of lore...

in between cattle raids of course.

thetonynator

ilovesleep wrote: »

Iceland damned for letting their banks fail. Ireland damned for co-operating with the EU and saving the banks. You just cant win with the EU. CT is the only thing keeping Ireland on life support and they want to cut it from us. This is the thanks we get for saving the banks and putting the failing euro on life support to save the stronger economies until they are ready to kick the PIIG countries even further.

Iceland aren't in the EU, and tbh they aren't damned for letting the banks fail, they are doin considerably well now, compared to us.

I agree that the CT rate shouldn't be changed, or should be proportionate to the number of employees a company has, e.g. 12.5% for companies with over 1000 employees, rising to maybe 15% for companies with far less.

ART6

thetonynator wrote: »

Iceland aren't in the EU, and tbh they aren't damned for letting the banks fail, they are doin considerably well now, compared to us.

I agree that the CT rate shouldn't be changed, or should be proportionate to the number of employees a company has, e.g. 12.5% for companies with over 1000 employees, rising to maybe 15% for companies with far less.

Thereby eliminating the start-up companies that are likely to be the future. Start-ups tend to stay the course in the country. Large companies move to Poland and India.

RichardAnd

I've said this before and I will again. Raising the CT rates even by an iota would send a clear message to the MNCs here; Ireland is willing raise it's corp tax, will it go further?

If our CT rate is the same as the rest of europe we have very little to attract companies here. Un remarkable communications, high wage costs, a low-skilled (yet with degrees all over the pace) workforce and a general bad work ethic leaves little to convince the boys in Google and SAP to stay put.