M6 wont start

rugbyman

Hello All,


my friends M6 wont turn over. A few weeks ago someone else was driving and they were messing around with dvds.(thats all I know)

Since that various clicking noises existed when starting up, like from the dash. ( yes ,i know , a bit vague)
This week car wont start ,just various lights on dash.

He reckons it will have to be trailered to BMW (120/150 euro) and then their cost.

Just before this is done, i am wondering if his battery (5 year old ) has failed. If I charge it ,in place ,, and if this charging works, should the car start, or will the immobiliser have kicked in ,and therefore need to go to BMW
anyway.

Wandering round to have a look, hoping some of ye BMW heads ,or just very clever people are up this early and can advise.

Regards,Rugbyman

kdevitt

Sounds like the battery is dead - clicking from the dash is a telltale sign

stealthyspeeder

Careful jumpstarting if thats what you intend to do, that you jumpstart of a car with the same battery output. Larger engines have different voltages,

kdevitt

Yep - there should be terminals under the bonnet for you to use to jump start - do not do it direct to the battery or you can fry equipment.

rugbyman

thanks for replies. have beem mucking about with jump leads for 35 years and have heard so much talk about frying modern yokes.

window opened on its own just now. am planning to attach a mains trickle charger for a while

Gophur

stealthyspeeder wrote: »

Careful jumpstarting if thats what you intend to do, that you jumpstart of a car with the same battery output. Larger engines have different voltages,

Please, please tell us where you got this info from? What engines and what voltages?

Owen

There's no different voltages. All cars are 12v these days. Starting an M6 is no different to starting a 320d, on with the jump leads (Ideally surge protected ones, and cables which are thick enough) and go for it.

Does he not have breakdown assistance on his Insurance policy?

kildare.17hmr

Gophur wrote: »

Please, please tell us where you got this info from? What engines and what voltages?

he must be confusin it with trucks

paddydriver

M6.. Hmm

Tell him I will bring over my GTI and swap him; don't worry that the M6 won't start.. I will sort that. GTI is running just fine:D

Abelloid

How close to the car does he keep the keys? I hear there is a sensor that will arm some of the gadgetry when they are in range, draining the battery overnight....

rugbyman

Ok,

I put the mains fed battery charger on to the car via the live terminal under the bonnet and a negative nearby. the boot could not be opened due to low battery. After 20 mins of this the ignition would not light up.

i put the jump leads on from my wee car. the window which had mysteriously opened went back up. the boot became openable.

I did not try to start the car.

I feel that the best thing to do is charge the battery off the mains and get it tested. A new battery may be the cheapest way out. the tow truck to BMW will be 150 and I assume 150 for them to diagnose it and probably a battery off them, 500 euro in total.

One of the funny things it was doing during the week ,while these problems were intermittent, was the power steering did not work for a while!

Regards, Rugbyman

rugbyman

JustinOval wrote: »

How close to the car does he keep the keys? I hear there is a sensor that will arm some of the gadgetry when they are in range, draining the battery overnight....

About 12 to 15 feet, and a wall in between.

Rugbyman

rugbyman

paddydriver wrote: »

M6.. Hmm

Tell him I will bring over my GTI and swap him; don't worry that the M6 won't start.. I will sort that. GTI is running just fine:D

Sounds like a good deal, you have left out some detail, is it one of them Maserati GTIs or a Lambo GTi, oh ,and what colour, and is there a stereo in it.

Rugbyman

Matt Simis

Many BMWs have power release boots but all have a way of opening without power (for obvious reasons, the battery is in there). Usually its a matter of simply using the key in the keyhole (which maybe hidden or at an angle) and may require turning and being pressed in.

The windows and otherstuff not working is common on a modern electric laden car and as noted, all signs point to the battery. You guys could have this fixed in 15min without any OTT trailering to BMW and sitting for days there. Goto Halfords and buy one of the meaty Bosch batteries (presumably the same one as in the 650 or M5), open the boot, replace battery. Note the "BMW" battery is the same Bosch part, people buying batteries in dealers = :rolleyes:

Immobiliser is in the key and has nothing to do with the car battery. After changing the battery some electrics may need to be reset, like the Windows and Sunroof (just open and hold button for 15sec down then 15sec up to get Roof and Windows to learn their pinch limits).

PS: At 5 years old that battery should have been changed already if it was properly serviced.

stealthyspeeder

Gophur wrote: »

Please, please tell us where you got this info from? What engines and what voltages?

ooops i got confused and was thinking about jumpleads

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6AjfB6z4YU

fmul9798

Something you may want to check before going to motor factors/Halfords for that battery - I have a feeling that the recent BMWs have to be coded to recognise replacement batteries. You should check this out first - that M6 may not need it, but I recall reading about this a number of times.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Word of warning a new M6 battery needs coding after an installation that why you go to a dealer. The computer tracks the discharge rate of the battery and modulates the recharge rate. As the batter ages the discharge rate changes and the computer has to be told a new battery was installed.

You may need to jump it to start it, if so remember to turn off the headlights from the auto setting its a big drain on startup.

Dont sick anything non oem into a M6 for the love of god.

galwaytt

Maxim Early Rocket wrote: »

Word of warning a new M6 battery needs coding after an installation that why you go to a dealer. The computer tracks the discharge rate of the battery and modulates the recharge rate. As the batter ages the discharge rate changes and the computer has to be told a new battery was installed.

You may need to jump it to start it, if so remember to turn off the headlights from the auto setting its a big drain on startup.

Dont sick anything non oem into a M6 for the love of god.

Oh puhleez: BMW DON'T MAKE BATTERIES.

BOSCH, on the other hand, do.

The Bosch one in Halfords is even (if it's the S series), arguably even better than OEM.......

You'll do less damage fitting a new battery, with proper 13.8 output, and driving the car (to the dealer if the procedure you describe is accurate), than jump starting car with a fubar'd battery, and having the alternator trying to run at 110%.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

The computer is set to only recharge the OEM spec battery properly, you would want to be 100% sure the battery is exactly the same. Also a dealer may not be too keen to recode a car to some aftermarket battery but you could take it to a non BMW garage I suppose (yes I do know Bosch make the BMW batteries and wiperblades BTW) Don't be surprised if three months later the battery need to be replaced again because its not charging correctly. Take it to the dealers, its a 160k car treat it properly not like some glanza.

tossy

rugbyman wrote: »

i put the jump leads on from my wee car. the window which had mysteriously opened went back up. the boot became openable.

I did not try to start the car.

Eh....why didn't you just start the car there and then? thread over.

tossy

Maxim Early Rocket wrote: »

The computer is set to only recharge the OEM spec battery properly.

Since when do computers re charge the batteries i thought the alternator did that?

OEM spec battery will just be a certain AH rating I would think.

GTDolanator

stealthyspeeder wrote: »

Careful jumpstarting if thats what you intend to do, that you jumpstart of a car with the same battery output. Larger engines have different voltages,

all cars are 12-14 volts its the ampage of a battery that differs

rebel.ranter

It is true that a BMW has to be told that a new battery had been fitted, this is so the control unit responsible for governing the charge & discharge of the battery knows how best to optimize the charging from the alternator. There are probably 50+ control units in that M6.
As for buying OEM, I had to buy an OEM battery for my e36 convertible for two reasons:
- there are additional baffles built in to the battery to compensate for the extra body movement associated with it being roofless
- it is impossible to get a battery of the right physical size & Ah rating to fit in the battery bay. (I know, I did a lot of research before I bought it).

One down side to buying an OEM battery (apart from being robbed) is that the warranty on them is less than a Halfords supplied Bosch equivalent from what I remember.
Jump starting a modern car is generally not recommended given the sensitivity of the electronic control units to voltage surges.

Matt Simis

tossy wrote: »

Since when do computers re charge the batteries i thought the alternator did that?

In fitzgeme's defense, he isnt some blow in tool, so I looked up what he was saying and found:
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60-m5-e61-m5-touring-discussion/163460-oem-battery-x-brand.html

Basically, when BMW says you need to register the battery with the computer, it is not like a serial # registration, in fact , there is no particular # on the battery part itself, what it concerns is basically inserting into the BMW onboard computer, that the battery is being replaced, at XXX mileage and it is XXX type battery...

This data will then cause the car to 'learn' the battery, and will accordingly charge it with the appropriate amounts.
For example, if you do not reset this ecu value, then it thinks your battery is much older than it actually is if you replaced it on your own, it will then cause the alternator to overcharge the new battery as it thinks it is older and nearing the end of its life. You may overcharge on cold starts in the morning etc, eventually what this causes is a reduced life of the battery you have replaced it with, and which is WHY so many of those guys on the E60 board were having to replace their batteries within 3 months, and many within just one year of use.

Granted, programming the computer with these values is not that hard, real easy actually, but I do not have a scan tool that accesses the proper windows in this BMW.

and:

you have to replace the battery, register it with the GT-1 and make sure it accepts the battery correctly in the modules. if not it will not charge it correctly. there's a reason you pay that much @ the dealer for this.

and:

Not to burst your bubble but i am a long time BMW Master tech here and i am sad to tell you that you need to have your battery replacment regestered with the dme it has a varying charging stragety for the battery and it changes as the battery gets older so a new one will work but won't last as long as it should because it gets charged at a lower rate.

So it seems there is a risk of wreaking the replacement battery if the old one was let age extremely badly as the Alternator will apply an aged battery charging cycle to a fresh battery. This apparently is also only applicable to the AGM Batteries (black case if BMW OEM) too which all the higher end cars certainly have. There is talk Audi and VW also do something similar.

galwaytt

Maxim Early Rocket wrote: »

The computer is set to only recharge the OEM spec battery properly, you would want to be 100% sure the battery is exactly the same. Also a dealer may not be too keen to recode a car to some aftermarket battery but you could take it to a non BMW garage I suppose (yes I do know Bosch make the BMW batteries and wiperblades BTW) Don't be surprised if three months later the battery need to be replaced again because its not charging correctly. Take it to the dealers, its a 160k car treat it properly not like some glanza.

I'm not saying the re-code isn't necessary - I'm saying the battery source is less relevant.

Running a known-dead battery, and jump starting: the ECU isn't going to take kindly to that.

Oh, and 160k? LOL, maybe in a parallel universe. An '07 cabrio can be bought now for 52k, a coupe for in the low 40's.

tossy

Matt Simis wrote: »

In fitzgeme's defense, he isnt some blow in tool, so I looked up what he was saying and found:
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60-m5-e61-m5-touring-discussion/163460-oem-battery-x-brand.html
and: and:


So it seems there is a risk of wreaking the replacement battery if the old one was let age extremely badly as the Alternator will apply an aged battery charging cycle to a fresh battery. This apparently is also only applicable to the AGM Batteries (black case if BMW OEM) too which all the higher end cars certainly have. There is talk Audi and VW also do something similar.

I take it back so feckin BMWs when will they learn? i drive an auld daysul audi and if the battery goes i just swap her with the one out of the massey and away she goes,the day i start telling my car what im going to be doing and when is a dark day,its a car not a wife!

I Was VB

Methinks that this is proof that cars are too advanced for thier own good.

rugbyman

Thanks for all the info, chaps

the stuff about letting the brain know there is a new battery in place is fascinating.

I was wary of jumping because of the presumed state of its battery and the subsequent power surge from the alternator( though I believe this is minimised by leaving the donor leads in place for a while).

As a matter of interest, when the car is offloaded off the truck, what will BMW do first,
1 charge the battery , as a flat battery cannot be checked for deterioration/problems,

2 attach a power source and jump it ,then monitor things

3 attach a power source and use their computers to diagnose

Another question , if I had attempted to replace the battery , is there any risk of losing settings in the few minutes of having no battery?

Have a nice Sunday,all
Rugbyman

langdang

Gonna become more common with Start/Stop , increased electronics etc.

Bosch and Hella both do flavours of battery monitoring systems.
Bosch EBS
Hella IBS

In both cases it looks as tho the "smarts" is in the battery terminal, and it's just a flag needs to be set somewhere in the firmware to say that a new battery has been fitted. Technically the battery itself doesn't need to be "coded" to communicate with the system (but your gonna end up going to a tech with a laptop or something either way!)

Owen

Dealers jump start everything at some point on the forecourt, including M6's. There's no special Dealer magic to this, just a set of surge protected leads, and that's it.

As said before, BMW don't make batteries. Most BMW OEM stuff can be bought non-OEM from BMW's own suppliers - brake pads, filters, all that sort of stuff. I know one guy who buys so many filters from a supplier, that occassionally they'll have the non-OEM box, but it'll be branded BMW inside, they all get made from the same assembly line.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

So after all that I am correct on every point I made. I do know my BMW's lads

The battery needs recoding when its replaced.

There are major reasons to get a OEM battery (never said it was a BMW battery only OEM spec ,look up what OEM means) . Its not that the halfrads battery is bad its that the car cannot communicate with it properly cause it assumes an OEM battery ( unless you happen to get just the correct type of battery). I know what and alternator is thanks.

An M6 does cost 160k new (what it cost second hand is fascinating thanks for that, but, the computers and complexity does not know about depreciation). Its got 160k performance and 160k upkeep cost including taking it to a garage for a new battery rather than halfords no matter how much that seems to annoy some posters.

Always good to check your facts before posting.

rugbyman

rebel.ranter wrote: »

It is true that a BMW has to be told that a new battery had been fitted, this is so the control unit responsible for governing the charge & discharge of the battery knows how best to optimize the charging from the alternator. There are probably 50+ control units in that M6.
As for buying OEM, I had to buy an OEM battery for my e36 convertible for two reasons:
- there are additional baffles built in to the battery to compensate for the extra body movement associated with it being roofless
- it is impossible to get a battery of the right physical size & Ah rating to fit in the battery bay. (I know, I did a lot of research before I bought it).

One down side to buying an OEM battery (apart from being robbed) is that the warranty on them is less than a Halfords supplied Bosch equivalent from what I remember.
Jump starting a modern car is generally not recommended given the sensitivity of the electronic control units to voltage surges.

Thanks for info.
not meaning to split hairs here, but did you have to buy your oem battery from BMW , I mean could a Bosch battery agent get it for you and hence (probably) cost less than from BMW.

re your comments on not jumping, it was this reason that I did not jump it, despite 30 years of Jumping.

Regards,Rugbyman

rugbyman

Maxim Early Rocket wrote: »

So after all that I am correct on every point I made. I do know my BMW's lads

The battery needs recoding when its replaced.

There are major reasons to get a OEM battery (never said it was a BMW battery only OEM spec ,look up what OEM means) . Its not that the halfrads battery is bad its that the car cannot communicate with it properly cause it assumes an OEM battery ( unless you happen to get just the correct type of battery). I know what and alternator is thanks.

An M6 does cost 160k new (what it cost second hand is fascinating thanks for that, but, the computers and complexity does not know about depreciation). Its got 160k performance and 160k upkeep cost including taking it to a garage for a new battery rather than halfords no matter how much that seems to annoy some posters.

Always good to check your facts before posting.

Thanks for the info, but question, can a technican not inform the ecu that a specific new battery has been installed and tell the ecu the details so it can deal with it.

I note you state that it is possible that halfords (or any motor factor) just might have the RIGHT battery.

Thanks again

Rugbyman

P.s. for any of several reasons the car is going by truck to BMW

Matt Simis

From what I read you can put any rated battery into it, thats not the issue. If will even work fine on the car side. You just need to (should have?) get the Cars charging cycle reset which requires some diagnostic tools.

If you dont do this the only "harm" is to the battery though, not the car. The charging system isnt unique to the M cars, I suspect people put in different batteries in modern BMWs and never even notice this as a problem, batteries still last years.

Gophur

Maxim Early Rocket wrote: »

............ I do know my BMW's lads

The battery needs recoding when its replaced.

.............

How do you "code" a battery?

DublinDilbert

Maxim Early Rocket wrote: »

So after all that I am correct on every point I made. I do know my BMW's lads

The battery needs recoding when its replaced.

There are major reasons to get a OEM battery (never said it was a BMW battery only OEM spec ,look up what OEM means) . Its not that the halfrads battery is bad its that the car cannot communicate with it properly cause it assumes an OEM battery ( unless you happen to get just the correct type of battery). I know what and alternator is thanks.

An M6 does cost 160k new (what it cost second hand is fascinating thanks for that, but, the computers and complexity does not know about depreciation). Its got 160k performance and 160k upkeep cost including taking it to a garage for a new battery rather than halfords no matter how much that seems to annoy some posters.

Always good to check your facts before posting.

Just cause it costs 160K new doesn't mean the electronic systems cost any more than other cars made by BMW. I can pretty much guarantee that the electronic systems will be cobbled together from bits of the 5 series and 3 series.

You can go in a buy a brand new Austin martin, all of the electronics will come from P1/P2 volvo platforms, I think they might also use some ford stuff too.

In fact with new bus systems its even easier to exchange electronic components, features can be enabled/disabled in software and away you go.

The battery wouldn't need to be coded, it would just need the charging adaptions re-set, lots of scan tools can do that.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

DublinDilbert wrote: »

Just cause it costs 160K new doesn't mean the electronic systems cost any more than other cars made by BMW. I can pretty much guarantee that the electronic systems will be cobbled together from bits of the 5 series and 3 series.

You can go in a buy a brand new Austin martin, all of the electronics will come from P1/P2 volvo platforms, I think they might also use some ford stuff too.

In fact with new bus systems its even easier to exchange electronic components, features can be enabled/disabled in software and away you go.

The battery wouldn't need to be coded, it would just need the charging adaptions re-set, lots of scan tools can do that.

Its funny you say that because 3 series (e90, e91, e92), 5 series (e60 and F10), X5 (e70) all modern M cars, new model 6 series to my knowledge require the battery coded as well.

DublinDilbert

Maxim Early Rocket wrote: »

Its funny you say that because 3 series (e90, e91, e92), 5 series (e60 and F10), X5 (e70) all modern M cars, new model 6 series to my knowledge require the battery coded as well.

To be honest i'd rather companies did re-use electronics then there's a better chance of reliability. Also from their point of view they order larger quantities of the same part, hence bigger cost reductions.

Yea its down to this "smart" charging algorithms that they are trying to use to condition the battery. The old alternators used to have a PTC which used to get the regulator on the alternator to output a higher voltage when the car is started for a first few mins, this is mean to condition the battery chemically. This is the modern day equivalent.

I'm just glad i have a scan tool that will be able to do it when i replace the battery ;-)

996tt

frank gooding wrote: »

Try these lads.

They will defo sort it out.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/MKW-Motors/125023784174882?v=photos#!/photo.php?fbid=193125787364681&set=a.193125734031353.51414.125023784174882&pid=732724&id=125023784174882

about 80% of your posts are you referring people to this company, whether the person has an M6 or a fiesta

galwaytt

Maxim Early Rocket wrote: »

So after all that I am correct on every point I made. I do know my BMW's lads

The battery needs recoding when its replaced.

There are major reasons to get a OEM battery (never said it was a BMW battery only OEM spec ,look up what OEM means) . Its not that the halfrads battery is bad its that the car cannot communicate with it properly cause it assumes an OEM battery ( unless you happen to get just the correct type of battery). I know what and alternator is thanks.

An M6 does cost 160k new (what it cost second hand is fascinating thanks for that, but, the computers and complexity does not know about depreciation). Its got 160k performance and 160k upkeep cost including taking it to a garage for a new battery rather than halfords no matter how much that seems to annoy some posters.

Always good to check your facts before posting.

Speaking of facts.......you don't code the battery.......it's the car's ECU that gets' coded.......don't assume we're all fools out here; we've all heard 'dealer-speak' before - and coming from a professional motors(2 wheel, btw...) background myself, you should never assume to know more than your customer. One day, it will bite you. Btdt, have the t-shirt.

As for 160k cost.......well, don't confuse 'cost' with 'value'. As you say yourself.....lot's of not very 160k car parts under the bonnet......and as OP has a used M6, the value of that IS what I posted......not what you're posting....as you say yourself......Always good to check your facts before posting

Tea 1000

galwaytt wrote: »

Speaking of facts.......you don't code the battery.......it's the car's ECU that gets' coded.......don't assume we're all fools out here; we've all heard 'dealer-speak' before - and coming from a professional motors(2 wheel, btw...) background myself, you should never assume to know more than your customer. One day, it will bite you. Btdt, have the t-shirt.

As for 160k cost.......well, don't confuse 'cost' with 'value'. As you say yourself.....lot's of not very 160k car parts under the bonnet......and as OP has a used M6, the value of that IS what I posted......not what you're posting....as you say yourself......Always good to check your facts before posting

You're being a bit hard on him to be fair. And it doesn't matter about the value of a car. Just because a 750Li can be bought now for the same price as a Polo of similar year, doesn't mean the same stuff is gone in to both. The difference is the new price of each car, that's why he pointed that out.

Gophur

galwaytt wrote: »

Speaking of facts.......you don't code the battery......

+1

I'm waiting for the BMW Gurus to tell us how a Battery is "coded" !

Tea 1000

Gophur wrote: »

+1

I'm waiting for the BMW Gurus to tell us how a Battery is "coded" !

Ah - I see the Pedantic Police have arrived.
There's another thread open about a guy asking how to fill up his car with petrol. You should post there and advise him to only fill the petrol tank with petrol, not the whole car.

Gophur

Tea 1000 wrote: »

Ah - I see the Pedantic Police have arrived.
......

Not so.

We have a contributor who claims

So after all that I am correct on every point I made. I do know my BMW's lads

The battery needs recoding when its replaced..........

It was repeated. But the contributor has failed to explain how you code/recode a battery.

It's not being pedantic, it's about pulling up a waffler.

I want to know how a battery is re-coded.

langdang

Gophur wrote: »

+1

I'm waiting for the BMW Gurus to tell us how a Battery is "coded" !

The end result will be the same unless the car menu (presume M6 has fancy screen etc with loads of options and settings) allows you to tell it there is a new battery - you will need someone with a laptop or a high end hand held diagnostic tool to sort you out.
I've already posted the links to the hardware that looks after this charge/discharge/battery condition monitoring

Tea 1000

Gophur wrote: »

Not so.

We have a contributor who claims


It was repeated. But the contributor has failed to explain how you code/recode a battery.

It's not being pedantic, it's about pulling up a waffler.

I want to know how a battery is re-coded.

This would be the line he typed which I gathered from that it's the ECU that needs updating.

fitzgime wrote:

As the batter ages the discharge rate changes and the computer has to be told a new battery was installed.

langdang

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Im not defending the chap but does he mean that the battery has to be reconditioned. To negate the battery memory effect perhaps?

Naw, the battery monitor probably just needs to be told it has a new battery to work with. As previously mentioned, it's most likely that this is purely to get the maximum out of the battery - the car probably won't throw a wobbler if it's not reset (rather than coded), but with so many electronics why take the chance?

btkm8unsl0w5r4

ha ha, seems I really got under peoples skin on this one for pointing out a fact with BMW batteries (having replace several and wondering why I had to take them to a dealer I went and asked the mechanic and that how I know). You can see from my posts I know the ECU has to coded for a new battery (no the battery cant be coded - you showed me up there :rolleyes:) however if you want to split hairs over my subsequent sloppy wording then fine you guys win.

All modern BMW batteries are the same or should I say all modern BMW ECU are the same. The ECU has a dynamic discharge and recharge cycle that changes as the battery ages. This cycle is set to a OEM spec battery. So the fact remains you need a OEM spec battery (not a better one or a worse one only a OEM Spec where you get it is you own business but the easy way to b sure is to get one with BMW written on it). No you cannot recode the ECU for different batteries unless you want to rewrite the ECU program. Batteries recharge at different rates. The scan tool can only set the parameters BMW want the garage to be able to set like resetting warnings, service timings etc..

If telling the OP this is waffle then guilty I stand. However I would say arguing with me about this when you initially told everyone it was untrue was the real waffle. But put whatever battery you want in your car.

rugbyman

TEA 1000

"Just because a 750Li can be bought now for the same price as a Polo of similar year, "

nice piece of writing,and amazingly true(ish)

Rugbyman

rugbyman

Right chaps,
for any of several reasons this car is to go on a truck to BMW.

problem is today that the door wont open with the fob.
Obviously the battery is stone flat. the boot is closed for the same reason and the bonnet cannot be opened as one cannot get inside to pull the lever as the door wont open.
An earlier poster has suggested thet there is a way into the boot for this situation.
with the fob there is a plastic key , but the end of it is broken off. i am not certain what it is for but there is a label on it that suggests there is something in the glove box to use with it.
Any brainy ideas how to get power into the car to get the door open?

regards Rugbyman