Eurogamer hits a nerve

dreamers75

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-02-02-call-of-duty-black-ops-first-strike-review

Read the editors apology of sorts.


I didnt know these Daves were on the internet!


Dave is the new name for "them". :pac:

johnny_ultimate

Writer isn't wrong. Honestly, said gamers are far more plentiful than 'us' weirdos. Someone has to be buying those yearly updates.

Retr0gamer

Yep he's not wrong, he's also not wrong about how much awful value 15 stingers is for 5 maps. In other games they are provided free by either the developers or the community and are often as good if not better. Alsways find these map packs ruin the online community splitting it between the haves and the have nots and doing more damage than good. Worse was when I fired up Halo 3 months after playing it for a quick blast of something quick and dumb to find out I'd been locked out of the best modes that were available when I bought the game because I didn't own DLC.

KilOit

Pirating all future CoD games, Black ops left such a sour taste in my mouth still doesn't play well on my decent spec pc. yeah pirating sucks and couldn't care less if it means CoD stops coming to the pc.

mayordenis

Pretty cheap reason to pirate the game, if you think the new one is **** yes I agree don't buy the next, but don't pirate it and play it either, just give it a miss.

I enjoyed the article I must say...mostly.

Although I'm not big on the "look at him....sneer sneer" ****, I think it was meant in jest but there is a very large amount of gamers who are only in for the elitism and it limits the industry in alot of ways, one minute "Gaming nerds" don't want to be marginalised the next minute they want to **** on someone who is only dipping their toes into the bigger games ala Fifa and COD.

dreamers75

mayordenis wrote: »

Although I'm not big on the "look at him....sneer sneer" ****, I think it was meant in jest but there is a very large amount of gamers who are only in for the elitism and it limits the industry in alot of ways, one minute "Gaming nerds" don't want to be marginalised the next minute they want to **** on someone who is only dipping their toes into the bigger games ala Fifa and COD.

Gamers = LOI fans :pac:

Daves = :pac::pac::pac:

KilOit

mayordenis wrote: »

Pretty cheap reason to pirate the game, if you think the new one is **** yes I agree don't buy the next, but don't pirate it and play it either, just give it a miss.

Never said Black Ops is **** i said it plays like ****.
Feel i have to make an exception for future CoD games, this buyers regret ain't going away till i get the next CoD game for free.

landsleaving

Big budget, heavily marketed piece of mass market populist entertainment, geared toward addicting casual play appeals to non (sigh) 'hardcore' gamers? Shock.

What's his point exactly, that we're being priced out of these map packs by people who don't buy other games? And this complaint being made on behalf of the same group who paid to download an armoured horse in Oblivion? I don't think Dave's future borther in law understands his audience.

Although if the reaction was that bad, assumedly they're all called Dave. Or are just psychotic Call of Duty fanboys. And I'll take Dave over them any day.

K.O.Kiki

KilOit, instead of being a muppet & pirating the next CoD game, why not try out any of the DOZENS of better FPS games instead?

Also, maybe you should read a few user reviews. That's generally how you find out if a game is good or not, and it saves you money!

Shiminay

Mass consumerism has finally come to Computer Gaming in a big scale and this is how gamers are reacting. Personally I find it shockingly disappointing that I have friends who will instantly buy Call of Duty as soon as it comes out because they feel they have to. It's a real shame to see people who I knew as Gamers have turned into Consumers. I've played BLOPS and it's a decent game, but it's also a boring game. There is nothing original in it, just refinement on what they know is a winning formula.

But with every art-form, there are those who churn out "radio friendly unit shifters" and there are actual artists - The Call of Duty and FIFA's of this world are the computer gaming equivalent of XFactor winners and Boy Bands - mass generic appeal, but nothing distinctive and a massive fan base with no actual appreciation of the art, just content in the knowledge that they know what they like and are happy to live in their bubble.

Dave isn't any less of a person but he's not a gamer in our (we the regulars of Boards.ie's Gaming forum, we who have worked our way up from 8bit eras and having to worry about having SB16 compatible drivers etc) traditional sense of the word though. So few of the teeny-boppers who buy Jedward's CD will never be able to understand why Mozart was one of the greatest creators of music this planet's ever seen.

you don't have to like it, but you have to at least acknowledge that it's here to stay.

johnny_ultimate

Occassionally I do get frustrated by the 'mass market' dominance. I often used to seriously wonder why people would return a great film to the shelf because it was subtitled. But I've come to realise most don't care. It'd be great if everyone could embrace the great art out there, but they don't, and who are we to complain? Truth is most don't care whether TF2 is better than CoD (it is ). It doesn't concern them that Deadly Premonition has a great story. They haven't the foggiest what obscure schmup they should play. They are the majority, they're the ones who decide what games sell, and they have no interest in our enthusiast nitpicking. Ain't nothing we as the minority can do, or indeed should we? It's the way modern society works in all mediums, and we'll all be happier if we just get on with it and do our own thing. Ignorance may be bliss, but at least we haven't missed out on Ico.

landsleaving

I think the problem with games is that there's no obvious underground, no real arthouse as there is with movies, so we all get scared there'll only be Call of Duty in the future. It'll end up the same as any other medium eventually, but that'll be when the gaming media start saying Call of Duty, Fifa and all the other blockbusters aren't innovative, creative or worth the effort, and when we start getting over the ridiculous notion that games need a huge budget or great graphics to be good.

Duggy747

Never caught onto the whole online Call Of Duty mullarkey. Far too much elitism to really enjoy it. Call of Duty is the equivalent of a summer blockbuster in gaming and pushes other worthy shooters out of the limelight.

Black Ops was a disaster of a game to run on my machine which was more than capable for it. I shouldn't have to disable one of my processers to get the damn thing running at a steady rate.

NotorietyH

landsleaving wrote: »

I think the problem with games is that there's no obvious underground, no real arthouse as there is with movies.

Sure there is, there's plenty of indie games that are pretty damn successful, and a plenty of downloadable games on console from XBLA and PSN. Braid, Limbo, Super Meat Boy immediately spring to mind.

I'd wager that indie games share about the same amount of the market compared to blockbuster games as arthouse/indie movies do to blockbuster hollywood films, if not more so.

landsleaving

I don't mean the games aren't being made, more that there isn't really a proper distinction between the two. You'd never see a film critic/buff say the latest Transformers is equally as good as something intelligent and thought provoking, but produced on a low budget, just because the special effects are good and it's vaguely entertaining, but you read any games magazine and Call of Duty 2010 gets as good a review as something like Limbo or Flower because it's more polished or instantly accessible. Gamers don't seem to have a discerning attitude yet. The success of indie games is a good sign its on the way though and I'd say you're right that they have a similar share of the market.

johnny_ultimate

If you're looking at 'arthouse' as artistic, thoughtful games, then I'd agree there's only a small amount. It's far easier to find a reflective foreign film than it is a game that has something to say. There are a few - the independent PC scene and to a lesser degree XBLA, PSN and WiiWare - but not a dominant force by any stretch. Although the 'one man' game is becoming more prevalent, Minecraft being a good example. Anyone can pick up a camera and make a film (not very well, but still) and gaming is going that way, but Minecraft is an exception and for the 'big budget' game one needs a lot of money.

I do think there are gaming niches though. People who play JRPGs or RTS games or Treasure schmups are part of a niche, in much the way people who watch martial arts films are. I'd consider a lot of games 'outside' the mainstream, and while they may not be as thought provoking as a Michael Haneke film, they are still arthouse in the way their appeal is limited to a relatively small subset of gamers. The fact that games are driven by game mechanics and play is what makes it hard to say much of interest, but as developers become more comfortable with technology and interactive storytelling they will become more intelligent (Braid or the like are already on the way). But until then there are a ****tonne of games which are far outside the mass market, with a reliance on shall we say more 'hardcore' central mechanics than the ones that tend to dominate sales charts. One could certainly look on these subsets as the gaming 'arthouse' crowd.

tman

Logged on to read the original article and noticed that I had an unread message... Funnily enough it was spam from EG trying to advertise the very same map pack... Way to bite the hand that feeds you:p

NotorietyH

landsleaving wrote: »

I don't mean the games aren't being made, more that there isn't really a proper distinction between the two. You'd never see a film critic/buff say the latest Transformers is equally as good as something intelligent and thought provoking.

I'd disagree with that too. Empire gave the first Pirates of the Caribbean movie 5 stars and The King's Speech five. It doesn't mean they think Pirates is an equal to, deep or as worthy as the King's Speech, but for what they, and what they set out to do, both are five star movies. One is an excellent piece of Blockbuster entertainment and the other is a period drama. Hell they gave the first Transformers 4 stars, the same as they gave 127 Hours. Most movie specific magazines and movie critics really judge a film not on whether it holds up to Citizen Kane, but whether it's entertaining or emotionally involving, is escapist fun or thought provoking and insightful, and doesn't regard either approach as superior to the other. I think the same applies to the game industry's best critics and websites.

If you want to see just how wrong movie critics can be, check out Armond White's reviews. He's made a career of being a professional troll. Transformers 2 is an outstanding piece of cinema according to him, while he claims Toy Story 3 is shallow and designed just to sell toys to kids.

johnny_ultimate

NotorietyH wrote: »

I'd disagree with that too. Empire gave the first Pirates of the Caribbean movie 5 stars and The King's Speech five. It doesn't mean they think Pirates is an equal to, deep or as worthy as the King's Speech, but for what they, and what they set out to do, both are five star movies. One is an excellent piece of Blockbuster entertainment and the other is a period drama. Hell they gave the first Transformers 4 stars, the same as they gave 127 Hours. Most movie specific magazines and movie critics really judge a film not on whether it holds up to Citizen Kane, but whether it's entertaining or emotionally involving, is escapist fun or thought provoking and insightful, and doesn't regard either approach as superior to the other. I think the same applies to the game industry's best critics and websites.

If you want to see just how wrong movie critics can be, check out Armond White's reviews. He's made a career of being a professional troll. Transformers 2 is an outstanding piece of cinema according to him, while he claims Toy Story 3 is shallow and designed just to sell toys to kids.

Well Empire are the IGN of film so they don't count :P But yeah, I agree with you in general. 'Mainstream' isn't a bad thing, there are loads of big budget games and films I absolutely adore. But as you say you have to take things for what they are. CoD is definitely a game with solid central foundations (I'd argue said foundations have had a negative effect on online gaming on the whole, but that's a separate argument) and its success is hard to begrudge even if one doesn't like it. But in much the same way Avatar is bound to gross more than Black Swan or the King's Speech. This is just the way commercial cinema and gaming work, and while it is perhaps disappointing so many people ignore the genuinely good stuff out there in favour of whatever is fed to them, there isn't anything we can do about it or indeed begrudge the situation. Far easier not to let it concern you and get on with playing what you like as opposed to what we're told to like.

Grumpypants

I think you have to find a happy medium, people who only play COD or FIFA are just as annoying as people who will only play some obscure Japanese RPG's.

I have enjoyed simple little games from indie developers but at the same time i have played games recommended to me because "they are great little indie games" and they have been terrible. At the same time i've also loved and hated big blockbuster games COD4 was brilliant, 5,6&7 are very average. Medal of Honor who most people hated, i loved.

A lot of it is personal taste and a lot of it comes down to being in the right mood at the right time too. Ive often been over tired playing a game and hating it only to come back to it 6 months later and playing it for 14 hours solid !!

krudler

Grumpypants wrote: »

I think you have to find a happy medium, people who only play COD or FIFA are just as annoying as people who will only play some obscure Japanese RPG's.

This, the "oh I played that game on Jap import 2 years ago, you're soooo not a hardcore gamer, go play Halo nooob!" gamers are just as annoying as the "I only play whats on Gamestops chart" gamers. A mix is needed.

Shiminay

Those obscure JPRG types are gamer hipsters. Obscure Jap import games are the equivalent of a pretty looking fixie bike for those arseholes. :D:D

gizmo

NotorietyH wrote: »

I'd disagree with that too. Empire gave the first Pirates of the Caribbean movie 5 stars and The King's Speech five. It doesn't mean they think Pirates is an equal to, deep or as worthy as the King's Speech, but for what they, and what they set out to do, both are five star movies. One is an excellent piece of Blockbuster entertainment and the other is a period drama. Hell they gave the first Transformers 4 stars, the same as they gave 127 Hours. Most movie specific magazines and movie critics really judge a film not on whether it holds up to Citizen Kane, but whether it's entertaining or emotionally involving, is escapist fun or thought provoking and insightful, and doesn't regard either approach as superior to the other. I think the same applies to the game industry's best critics and websites.

I treat games in almost the same manner as I treat movies, and that manner is the same as Roger Ebert who I think put it best...

When you ask a friend if Hellboy is any good, you're not asking if it's any good compared to Mystic River, you're asking if it's any good compared to The Punisher. And my answer would be, on a scale of one to four, if Superman is four, then Hellboy is three and The Punisher is two. In the same way, if American Beauty gets four stars, then The United States of Leland clocks in at about two.

Kharn wrote: »

Those obscure JPRG types are gamer hipsters. Obscure Jap import games are the equivalent of a pretty looking fixie bike for those arseholes. :D:D

Kharn just called you a hipster Retr0gamer :pac:

super_furry

Thing is, FIFA, Halo, CoD (before Black Ops), NFS Hot Pursuit they're all really really good games. And sure, they're Michael Bay films compared to the likes of Braid's (which I still think in massively overated) Todd Solondz-esque efforts. But there's easily room for both.

gizmo

super_furry wrote: »

Thing is, FIFA, Halo, CoD (before Black Ops), NFS Hot Pursuit they're all really really good games. And sure, they're Michael Bay films compared to the likes of Braid's (which I still think in massively overated) Todd Solondz-esque efforts. But there's easily room for both.

Tell that to the publishers who refuse to green light original IP titles for fear of them being too risky or to Ninja Theory after their extremely enjoyable Enslaved failed to even break 500,000 copies sold or maybe SEGAs board who are probably getting pissed that Platinum Games' output isn't selling as well as it should given the critical success it has earned.

super_furry

Yeah but Enslaved wasn't an indie game it was a massive studio undertaking, involving high profile (and price) actors, a massive advertising campaign and serious studio backing. It was also pretty generic although it did look very pretty.

The advent of digital downloads have meant that the indie development scene has never, ever been healthier. Five years ago that argument might have been valid but with the likes of Minecraft, Torchlight, Braid and Magicka (already the best game I've played in years) all proving to be big hits, then I feel that there really is room for both.

gizmo

super_furry wrote: »

Yeah but Enslaved wasn't an indie game it was a massive studio undertaking, involving high profile (and price) actors, a massive advertising campaign and serious studio backing. It was also pretty generic although it did look very pretty.

The advent of digital downloads have meant that the indie development scene has never, ever been healthier. Five years ago that argument might have been valid but with the likes of Minecraft, Torchlight, Braid and Magicka (already the best game I've played in years) all proving to be big hits, then I feel that there really is room for both.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not disagreeing with you that there's room for both. I'm just worried that publishers will disagree given the risks associated with the production of original IP to a AAA standard.

johnny_ultimate

gizmo wrote: »

Don't get me wrong, I'm not disagreeing with you that there's room for both. I'm just worried that publishers will disagree given the risks associated with the production of original IP to a AAA standard.

Indeed. Platinum were born out of the commercial failure of Clover who despite a number of critically acclaimed games were shut down by Capcom - and while Platinum are churning out gold at the moment, you have to wonder how long Sega will support them given their lack of chart impact. Bizarre Creations have recently gone under after taking a risk with original IPs. Oddworld Inhabitants weren't able to stay afloat despite the quality of Stranger's Wrath. Of the big studios only EA seem willing to give underperforming titles a second chance (it's the reason Dead Space 2 exists, and I'm sure a Mirror's Edge sequel is on the cards). But in the cutthroat world of big budget game development, it's only a handful of original big budget IPs that manage to make a profit. And for a game to push the boundaries of technology these days and develop a AAA title for retail, money is a necessity.

K.O.Kiki

IMHO developers should realise that trying to compete with the big names is a stupid endeavour, and instead release games on download portals instead (XBLA, PSN, App Store, Steam etc.)

Recettear (dev: EasyGameStation, pub: Carpe Fulgur) is one of my favourite titles of last year, and for a game that seemed dead-on-arrival (quirky Japanese item-shop RPG) it went on to sell enough in 6 months to keep them in business until 2012.

krudler

gizmo wrote: »

Don't get me wrong, I'm not disagreeing with you that there's room for both. I'm just worried that publishers will disagree given the risks associated with the production of original IP to a AAA standard.

what about Dead Space? its easy to forget it was a pretty unhyped release, it came out before Resi 5 and completely surpassed it in terms of production, atmosphere and gameplay. As well as having still brilliant graphics and some of the greatest sound design in a game of this generation imo.
Given the choice at the time people would have been way more hyped for a new Resi game instead of this Resi meets Event Horizon pretender to the throne, now people would probably be more hyped for DS2 than Resi 6 after the disappointment of 5.
so a new IP can become something huge when the effort is put in, and lets be fair DS1 is in no way a shoddy game in any department that needed a sequel to fix anything, and the Dead Space universe is more expanded than most franchises that have been around twice as long, with comics, two animated movies one decent spinoff (Extraction) and one ok admittedly sh1te one in that stupid puzzle thing on xbla, EA did a great job of using media outside the game to tell a bigger story.

Mr E

I'm taking a stand for the Daves in this forum.

Eurogamer wrote:

Hi Eurogamer! Eurogamer, this is Dave.

Nope, not me.

Eurogamer wrote:

Dave might look like us, and in many ways he behaves like us, but he is not like us.

OK, you have my attention. Lets see where this goes....

Eurogamer wrote:

He is, in fact, quite different. Note his furrowed brow and the hint of menace in his eyes.

Fair comment. But its only because I've been playing Super Meatboy and I want to throw my controller at the TV.

Eurogamer wrote:

Look at those trainers. Judge him.

I only wear 'trainers' in the gym (and I don't call them trainers either)

Eurogamer wrote:

Dave owns a console and a big television, like any right-minded individual.

Big TV, sure, but I have all 3 current gen consoles, TYVM.

Eurogamer wrote:

The problem is that he only has it to play two games: the FIFA football game and Call of Duty.

Bollox. Both COD games bored me (never finished either of them) and I've never bought a FIFA game.

Eurogamer wrote:

He is, and let's not shy away from the term, part of a growing underclass of gamers. The people who pollute our lifestyle: those of a mind to play Team Death Match in Nuketown every night to the exclusion of everything else.

Wrong. I'm playing Dead Space 2 every night at the moment. An EA game. Oops...

Eurogamer wrote:

In six months, Dave will become my brother-in-law. He makes me sick.

I don't have a sister, so you're marrying my brother? I didn't even know he was gay.

Eurogamer wrote:

He hasn't even heard of Braid.

Yes I have. As a game, it thinks its a bit more clever than it really is, but I really enjoyed it for what it was. Clever ending too. Still need to do that 45 minute achievement though, but I'll get around to it some day. Jonathan Blow has my attention for any new games he releases.... I'm looking forward to The Witness (his next game), due out later this year. Will that do?

Eurogamer wrote:

Dave doesn't know who Bobby Kotick is.

Yes I do. He is a guy who doesn't respect his developers and doesn't respect gamers. He is happier treading out sequel after sequel of tired franchises rather than rewarding or encouraging innovation or new IPs in his own company.

Eurogamer wrote:

Bobby Kotick, however, knows Dave. He knows Dave's basic needs and Neanderthal desires.

Innovation?

Eurogamer wrote:

He knows how to gather dirty coins from Dave's pockets in exchange for hours and hours of 'entertainment'.

So he's behind those sites too. Good going..... I'd say they make more for him than games.

Eurogamer wrote:

Important today is the fact that Bobby Kotick knows that Dave has never bought a game expansion or map pack in his life...

Eh? Bought and finished all borderlands DLC in the last year (except Mad Moxie coz its shit and ill-conceived - at least they tried something different. Why not give that a whirl sometime, Bobby?).

Eurogamer wrote:

... yet will happily hand over a ludicrous 1200 Microsoft Points (once I've told him what they are) for a paltry four maps and a zombie level.

Didn't even buy Black Ops, and I have about 4000 Microsoft points in my account all set for Hard Corps, Torchlight and Beyond Good and Evil HD (and none of those are Activision games, so they're not getting a penny).

Eurogamer wrote:

Stupid, silly, ignorant Dave.

Stupid, silly, ignorant Eurogamer.

Please don't tar all Daves with the same brush.

marco_polo

Nah, you sound more like a Peter or a John gamer

TerrorFirmer

Kharn wrote: »

Mass consumerism has finally come to Computer Gaming in a big scale and this is how gamers are reacting. It's a real shame to see people who I knew as Gamers have turned into Consumers.



you don't have to like it, but you have to at least acknowledge that it's here to stay.

Sorry, but this is precisely the type of bull**** that I've come to loathe on boards.

Personally I find it shockingly disappointing that I have friends who will instantly buy Call of Duty as soon as it comes out because they feel they have to.

No, they buy it because they love Call of Duty, what it offers, and the value and entertainment they draw from it. The same reasons, surely, that you buy the games that you do.

I've played BLOPS and it's a decent game, but it's also a boring game. There is nothing original in it, just refinement on what they know is a winning formula.

Boring in whose opinion? The 20,000,000 fanbase for Black Ops? Or, sorry, did you mean 'boring' in your own opinion? Ironically, one of the simplest sayings is 'if it isn't broken, don't try and fix it'. When you apply that to games, what you get is a game with a familiar core - the part in need of no fixing - with refinements added. Maybe to you, that's boring, perhaps it's lazy, and you're perfectly entitled to your opinion. To the rest of us, those that actually love Call of Duty, we look at it in a different light. We see it as a fantastic game being slowly worked close to perfection. Those subtle changes can make a great game a brilliant, and be reason enough for you to invest countless hours in the game. Do I consider Black Ops innovative or original? No. Do I consider it a fantastic game worth every cent handed over for it? Absolutely. Will I buy the next Call of Duty game? Yup, I will, being the drone I am, which evidently in your opinion almost makes me some class of lower individual who seemingly cannot truly appreciate what games are about let alone make the conscious decision to purchase the game in the first instance.

There's actually an image out there media wise of the stereotypical 'gaming nerd', a good example is the episode of South Park entitled 'Make Love not Warcraft'. As much as that propogates such an image, so are you unjustly creating an equally discriminate imagine to a certain type of gamer - 'Dave', as Eurogamer calls him.

He hasn't even heard of Braid.

Dave isn't any less of a person but he's not a gamer in our (we the regulars of Boards.ie's Gaming forum, we who have worked our way up from 8bit eras and having to worry about having SB16 compatible drivers etc) traditional sense of the word though. So few of the teeny-boppers who buy Jedward's CD will never be able to understand why Mozart was one of the greatest creators of music this planet's ever seen.

I've never heard of it either, so I guess I'm somehow not a gamer now despite having played since I was 8 on my 486. I've been playing games since Wolfenstein, through Doom, Quake, Unreal Tournament, Half Life, not to mention my NES, Gensis, PSX, Xbox, Gamecube, and other assorted consoles. Well, I played a few educational titles prior to that, but it really began with Wolf 3d.

Just because I happen to love FPS titles and little else, I'm somehow tarred with this brush of being a mindless troglodyte. Never bought Fifa, nor expansion packs for any COD title, though I don't hold it against those who do, clearly those people love football and I've no doubt the games offer a great experience and likewise, expansions offer a little bit more on an established experience respectively. I branch out occasionally to something beyond mindless blasting, such as Bioshock, it and its sequel possibly being my favourite games of all time, and the likes of Fallout 3. Also a Dawn of War addict, as well as Company of Heroes.

He is, and let's not shy away from the term, part of a growing underclass of gamers. The people who pollute our lifestyle: those of a mind to play Team Death Match in Nuketown every night to the exclusion of everything else.

Don't do that however I do play Halo: Reach most nights, to the detriment of all other games on my shelf, some of which have been there almost a year yet all plans and intentions to play are quashed by my love for Halo. Still consider myself a decent, honest 'hardcore' gamer, thanks, and there's very little wrong with playing something that gives you so much entertainment.

By the way, I have never liked RPGs, Puzzle Games, Racing, Football or fighting games. I didn't realise there was an inherent need to appreciate the spectrum of games and consoles to be considered a true gamer. I've been playing this way for the past 16 years, have bought hundreds of games, will buy hundreds more, and I'll be damned if I'll sit back and let somebody tell me I'm a personification of gaming decadence, X-Factor generation yuppie unable to appreciate the true worth of video games.

Grumpypants

Call of duty causes unexplained aggression in forum posts.

TerrorFirmer

Grumpypants wrote: »

Call of duty causes unexplained aggression in forum posts.

Not really. Could have been FIFA highlighted in the OP and I'd have reacted the same. It wasn't so much the eurogamer article that 'hit a nerve' as it wasn't Kharns incredibly insulting post.

landsleaving

Grumpypants wrote: »

Call of duty causes unexplained aggression in forum posts.

Quick, ban it!

gizmo

krudler wrote: »

what about Dead Space? its easy to forget it was a pretty unhyped release, it came out before Resi 5 and completely surpassed it in terms of production, atmosphere and gameplay. As well as having still brilliant graphics and some of the greatest sound design in a game of this generation imo.
Given the choice at the time people would have been way more hyped for a new Resi game instead of this Resi meets Event Horizon pretender to the throne, now people would probably be more hyped for DS2 than Resi 6 after the disappointment of 5.
so a new IP can become something huge when the effort is put in, and lets be fair DS1 is in no way a shoddy game in any department that needed a sequel to fix anything, and the Dead Space universe is more expanded than most franchises that have been around twice as long, with comics, two animated movies one decent spinoff (Extraction) and one ok admittedly sh1te one in that stupid puzzle thing on xbla, EA did a great job of using media outside the game to tell a bigger story.

And Dead Space is an example of how investment in an original IP can work out, doubly so when you look at the initial sales of Dead Space 2. Do note though that it was a perfect example of a slow burner in terms of sales and was certainly a worry for EA initially.

But what about Mirrors Edge, Enslaved, Bayonetta, Vanquish, Okami or older titles like Beyond Good & Evil and even *gulp* Grim Fandango? Plenty of effort was put into those titles but they never reached the level of commercial acclaim they deserved. Of course, that all lead to different things, Platinum are more than likely making another Bayonetta title but LucasArts stopped developing adventures games and we're still waiting on a BG&E sequel.

My worry, as I stated above, is that publishers will look at the larger number of these commercially unsuccessful titles and re-evaluate their investment in this "riskier" new IP.

Sisko

Mr E wrote: »

I'm taking a stand for the Daves in this forum.

I don't get it , why are people who are obviously not 'daves' getting pissed off here. The article is not about you, the very fact that you read a video game forum on the internet means your not one of those people.

What a bizarre thread.

Its not about people who enjoy FPS, its about people who's only gaming experience ever has been the recent splurge of clone military console shooters/ fifa.

If you've been gaming since a child and have a keen interest in gaming, reading and post on gaming forums etc etc, but currently enjoying CODwhatever on your 360, he's not talking about you.

People are getting defensive for no reason.

gizmo

Sisko wrote: »

I don't get it , why are people who are obviously not 'daves' getting pissed off here. The article is not about you, the very fact that you read a video game forum on the internet means your not one of those people.

What a bizarre thread.

Its not about people who enjoy FPS, its about people who's only gaming experience ever has been the recent splurge of clone military console shooters/ fifa.

If you've been gaming since a child and have a keen interest in gaming, reading and post on gaming forums etc etc, but currently enjoying CODwhatever on your 360, he's not talking about you.

People are getting defensive for no reason.

I think his name is actually Dave and his post was a piss take. :pac:

Sisko

woops hehe:o


well I wasn't specifically talking about his post, mainly the people getting all defensive in general.

Grumpypants

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

Not really. Could have been FIFA highlighted in the OP and I'd have reacted the same. It wasn't so much the eurogamer article that 'hit a nerve' as it wasn't Kharns incredibly insulting post.

People who have been gaming for years see the route Activision is taking by releasing little more than a map pack every year and then they charge far more for that game than most games at launch. (HMV usually sell new games for 45 Black ops i got for 53 and that was in Tesco most store charged 55+ for it)

They did this purely because they knew people would blindly buy it.

I personally dont mind if people want to play COD it keeps them from ruining good games all the time, but i do worry that the same will happen to the gaming industry as has happened to Hollywood or the Music industry.

For example the fighter took ten years to get the funding to make it, even though it seems a pretty bankable film. But remakes and sequels that are rubbish are green lit as they are guaranteed to make a certain amount of money as the masses will go to them.

The music charts have been destroyed by X-factor talentless clowns.

Again people say what's the harm?, well the harm is your choice in music, films and games are going to be really restricted to the same thing over and over again.

If all the entertainment you want is the A-team remake, Mat Cardle on the radio and Black ops in your console then you will be happy with this outcome but that for me and many others is a very dark world to be living in.

And then what happens when you wake up in 5 years and realise COD 12 is no better than COD4 and you no longer like it and there is nothing different to choose from. Would you not rather that Activision worked hard and improved COD surely this is a good thing.

Liam O

I'll play what I want, when I want (except when I have work or college obviously ) and if anyone tells me that's wrong then screw them tbh.

funky penguin

Kharn wrote: »

Mass consumerism has finally come to Computer Gaming in a big scale and this is how gamers are reacting. Personally I find it shockingly disappointing that I have friends who will instantly buy Call of Duty as soon as it comes out because they feel they have to. It's a real shame to see people who I knew as Gamers have turned into Consumers. I've played BLOPS and it's a decent game, but it's also a boring game. There is nothing original in it, just refinement on what they know is a winning formula.

But with every art-form, there are those who churn out "radio friendly unit shifters" and there are actual artists - The Call of Duty and FIFA's of this world are the computer gaming equivalent of XFactor winners and Boy Bands - mass generic appeal, but nothing distinctive and a massive fan base with no actual appreciation of the art, just content in the knowledge that they know what they like and are happy to live in their bubble.

Dave isn't any less of a person but he's not a gamer in our (we the regulars of Boards.ie's Gaming forum, we who have worked our way up from 8bit eras and having to worry about having SB16 compatible drivers etc) traditional sense of the word though. So few of the teeny-boppers who buy Jedward's CD will never be able to understand why Mozart was one of the greatest creators of music this planet's ever seen.

you don't have to like it, but you have to at least acknowledge that it's here to stay.

Great post. I've been discussing this with my housemates a lot recently, as one of them is a middling Tekken 6 player, while the other is on the edge, pushing towards the upper tiers. He's debating the social aspect of it and all that, but that's a little off topic.

I use the music analogy for it too. Just to lock onto the Jedward thing....yes I agree that most will never be able to see why Mozart was better, mainly because they will never be educated in the 'why', but also because they just simply like Jedward. There is an AWFUL elitism in 'art' (read:classical) music with regards to pop (read: everything that isn't classical). It's shameful that some musicologists will regard jazz as a lower form of commercialism, or over-look the brilliance of a musician such as Katie Melua (just an example). Anyway, sorry, getting to a point.....

I really love Mozart. But I also love listening to pop. Girls aloud are/were commercial poo, but crickey they made some fantastic tunes. I love playing these epically brilliant games like Red Dead, or those hidden gems like Psycho-nauts, but I'll readily admit MW1 and 2 rocked my boat.

I suppose what I'm saying is, sometimes I wonder why it has to be so black and white with some people. The elitism I see in gaming sometimes reminds me too much of academic snobbery. (I'm not saying that's you Kharn, I agree with your post, just a general statement! )

mrm

Kharn wrote: »

Mass consumerism has finally come to Computer Gaming in a big scale and this is how gamers are reacting. Personally I find it shockingly disappointing that I have friends who will instantly buy Call of Duty as soon as it comes out because they feel they have to. It's a real shame to see people who I knew as Gamers have turned into Consumers. I've played BLOPS and it's a decent game, but it's also a boring game. There is nothing original in it, just refinement on what they know is a winning formula.

But with every art-form, there are those who churn out "radio friendly unit shifters" and there are actual artists - The Call of Duty and FIFA's of this world are the computer gaming equivalent of XFactor winners and Boy Bands - mass generic appeal, but nothing distinctive and a massive fan base with no actual appreciation of the art, just content in the knowledge that they know what they like and are happy to live in their bubble.
:
Dave isn't any less of a person but he's not a gamer in our (we the regulars of Boards.ie's Gaming forum, we who have worked our way up from 8bit eras and having to worry about having SB16 compatible drivers etc) traditional sense of the word though. So few of the teeny-boppers who buy Jedward's CD will never be able to understand why Mozart was one of the greatest creators of music this planet's ever seen.

you don't have to like it, but you have to at least acknowledge that it's here to stay.

I agree with TerrorFirmer that, with all due respect, your post Kharn was incredibly insulting for a gaming forum, particularly regarding a trolling article within a commercial outlet (Eurogamer), but I am glad that you and your 'traditional' gamer ilk have deemed that Dave 'isn't any less of a person' for his personal gaming wishes.;)

But just for your information Mozart was a large commercial artist during his lifetime whose success, and artistic recognition, was largely due to his process of just reworking previously composed works (eg. his Symphony no. 7 was reworked to become La Finta Semplice overture, which was subsequently reworked; Apollo et Hyacinthus reworked into Symphony No. 6 Andante, etc). And if it worked for him.....

The irony here is that the COD series is not the evil disease within gaming (its simple fun with a capital F), its more likely the commercial review game sites like Eurogamer- who more often than not tell the 'Daves' of this world that every new iteration of a game is waaaaay better than the last, often when it does not appear to be.

Like all other entertainment/ art mediums artistic and commercial outputs will exist together, to hopefully cater for all. And similarly you will just have to search that little bit harder to find the 'Braids' than you will for the COD's - but they will be there for whoever wants which.

gizmo

mrm wrote: »

The irony here is that the COD series is not the evil disease within gaming (its simple fun with a capital F), its more likely the commercial review game sites like Eurogamer- who more often than not tell the 'Daves' of this world that every new iteration of a game is waaaaay better than the last, often when it does not appear to be.

Ah but the problem with this logic is that the "Daves" of the world don't read Eurogamer or other publications. On that note, most of the reviews will usually say that little has changed but that, as those fans above have said, there's very little that needs "fixing" per say. Of course it'd be nice if they didn't piss around with the multiplayer so much with the addition of the god-awful killstreaks but that's an argument for another thread.

mrm wrote: »

Like all other entertainment/ art mediums artistic and commercial outputs will exist together, to hopefully cater for all. And similarly you will just have to search that little bit harder to find the 'Braids' than you will for the COD's - but they will be there for whoever wants which.

And this is what worries people, will they be there? Games are most like movies in this respect, with the amount of money required to develop them differing wildly depending on the scale of the project, studios may only want to put money into sure things. And we all know how that turned out...Indiana Jones and the Crystal Skull. :pac:

mrm

gizmo wrote: »

Ah but the problem with this logic is that the "Daves" of the world don't read Eurogamer or other publications. On that note, most of the reviews will usually say that little has changed but that, as those fans above have said, there's very little that needs "fixing" per say. Of course it'd be nice if they didn't piss around with the multiplayer so much with the addition of the god-awful killstreaks but that's an argument for another thread.


And this is what worries people, will they be there? Games are most like movies in this respect, with the amount of money required to develop them differing wildly depending on the scale of the project, studios may only want to put money into sure things. And we all know how that turned out...Indiana Jones and the Crystal Skull. :pac:

I understand the genuine worry regarding availability of original IP but I believe that if non mainstream output can exist in the other entertainment/ art mediums then there is no reason to believe that it won't exist in gaming. I fell we have precedents of this worry previously in music and cinema, but they were unfounded. I believe that due to human nature it has always been difficult to actually kill the output from those who really love their medium and wish to produce quality despite modern commercial requirements.

So, on the same day that say Jedward/ Rhianna (whoever?? mainstream product) was at no. 1 last October (sorry, I don't know who actually was), Arcade Fire (slightly mainstream but quite good IMHO) played somewhere in Dublin yet I chose to see GY!BE (not mainstream) a week later in The Pod, with a full house. All produce music and all co exist, subscribe to whomever you wish - Burial or Boyzone, Rhianna or Red Neck Manifesto, Coldplay or Caribou, Mika or Moderat.....

Cinema is a good example - some similarities to gaming. In 2000 mainstream Hollywood back slapped itself over the production of American Beauty, but were over the top on its praise (good movie, not deserving of the praise it got). Yet the same institution that year completely ignored what many (incl. myself) believe to be the first cinematic masterpiece of this millenium - the non mainstream 'Dancer in the Dark'. 'Them', 'The Garage', '2046' - great non mainstream movies (IMHO again); the list goes on despite Michael Bay/ Gerry Bruckheimer and the mass populace preferences.

I stand by my comment - quality independant produce will always be there. Sure look at the gaming passion on this thread alone, note the quantity of posts on the minecraft and Demons Souls threads; success of XBLA.

BTW, I have that Indiana Jones movie recorded for viewing soon - or :mad:? Surely :):).

gizmo

mrm wrote: »

I understand the genuine worry regarding availability of original IP but I believe that if non mainstream output can exist in the other entertainment/ art mediums then there is no reason to believe that it won't exist in gaming. I fell we have precedents of this worry previously in music and cinema, but they were unfounded. I believe that due to human nature it has always been difficult to actually kill the output from those who really love their medium and wish to produce quality despite modern commercial requirements.

Well yes, to question the very existence of this new IP is somewhat over the top on my behalf. I guess it's the ratio of quality to **** titles that I'm more worried about, something which has certainly affected other forms of media in the last number of years.

But yes, we'll also always still have the indie scene for such new IP but just like in movies, I do like my quality big budget releases too.

mrm wrote: »

BTW, I have that Indiana Jones movie recorded for viewing soon - or :mad:? Surely :):).

Don't go there, just don't...

mayordenis

The music analogy is too ****ing stupid, honestly it's so stupid it's beyond belief.

It's far too Black and White, and it panders to yet more elitism, the fact of the matter is that theres 10,000 metal bands all worth listening to, but Slayer come out top of the heap not because it's mass market but because they are great. To sweep aside COD and Fifa as the equivilant of Xfactor winners is again elitist garbage, a more fitting analogy would be Green Day or Metallica or the like, bands that while in their current form I may not love I certainly look back on their roots and see they have earned and deserve respect, and on the back of the quality that I know they can produce I buy their new album day 1.
Thats not to say I will still think everything the produce is amazing, Metallica haven't really been great for coming on 21 years, and Green day maybe 10 since Warning, COD maybe (3?)years since the first Modern Warfare.

The more I think and type about this the more I can see the music analogy actually working so kudos on that, but likewise the more I think and type the more I see the same things that drove me away from being into music (as in following news, keeping up with what artists are doing etc. etc.).

Shiminay

I meant no dis-respect folks - apologies if it was seen as a slap in the face or condemnation of taste etc. What we write here folks is our individual opinion, lets never forget that. It's how this site works. Terror, you seem to have taken it very personally - classic self loathing case
(that is a joke sir. I respect a lot of what you wrote, but I think you may be taking me too literally and personally, I was talking about *my* friends)

Anyway, to the point. Some great posts made debating the merits of this, I'm never disappointed by the good folk here when we sink our teeth into things I'm not suggesting we try to fight the tide on this issue, nor am I suggesting it's the end of all good things. I certainly haven't suggested anywhere that it's wrong of people (my own friends included) to enjoy these games, whatever my opinion. However, I am someone who has appreciated games of all sorts for many, many years, I like to think that I am more knowledgeable than the average "Dave" (and not our Mr E ) on the subject and history and art that is computer gaming. That's not me being a snob, that's a statement of fact that someone who has loved this medium of entertainment for as long as I have has a vast wealth of experience to draw on when weighing up the good and bad points of a game.

Looking at it from another side: a €12 bottle of Santa Rita Cab Sav that you buy in Dunnes isn't a bad bottle of wine (personally, I really like it), but to someone who's a connoisseur and who's spent many years developing their appreciation for a tasty bottle of wine, they probably won't have any real interest in drinking it on an evening at home, but maybe with dinner at a friend's house if that's what's being served.

A game like BLOPS which has come out only a year after it's predecessor (which in turn came out very shortly after its own predecessor), whilst enjoyable, simply doesn't interest me because I've played the Modern Day FPS thing to death (Battlefield 2, CoD4, Ghost Recon, MW2, Bad Company 2, Medal of Honour, BLOPS, hell even Counter Strike to a point). With the sports games, a former housemate and I had a very old copy of Pro Evo on the PS2 and because he was a art student git with loads of free time, he used to manually update the teams every season and create any new players that were missing (we even had a "Classic Ireland" team with Charlton era players to play all the other in-game "classic" teams). We didn't feel the need to go buy the latest game cause we already had a soccer game we both really enjoyed playing. That said, in the interest of fair play, I noticed a big difference (improvement I felt) between FIFA 10 and 11, but less so between 9 and 10. But, I would never have bought these games only I was sent them to review them (I know I've mentioned the Boards.ie/EA advertising deal before and in case some aren't aware, I'm the Community Manager of Boards.ie).

To suggest that they can't simply roll out a simple update to modify all teams accordingly after transfer seasons etc is nonsense. They release a brand new game every time because they know Dave will lap it up. Dave isn't the only one of course, but Dave makes them their big bucks because he's gonna need his Online Pass (which is free for the moment, but don't be surprised when that changes too) and he's also likely to pay his 800 points for the live data and of course his 1200 points for his COD/HALO/Insert "pop" game of choice map packs.

As an aside: who remembers when these things were free? I do and they were expected to be free. And whilst I'm asking the question, who remembers when these things were community and not corporate driven? Maybe that's derailing this particular topic and tbh, I think we've been down that road here before and I have a personal preference for community driven but corporately supported things of this nature.

Back on topic...
(slightly tangential rant incoming, please bear with me as I have a point)
I despise what "the pop music industry" has done to music in general. I define this "industry" as the various cogs in the wheel that churn out boy bands, pop starlets, kiddie stars etc - the managers, the record companies, the 1 guy who seems to write all these "new" pop songs, the radio stations who play them and the massive retail chains that push them. It's gotten so bad that the poor sods who like how that sort of "by the numbers" nonsense sounds think they can make it too and put themselves on television to do so. It's a real shame that so many genuinely talented people have to whore and degrade themselves in such a manner to become what they think musicians and artist are.

I have no real issue with people making (or indeed spending) money on this stuff, but please don't insult my intelligence by trying to tell me it's art (it barely qualifies as music).

We've seen this happen with TV (Big Brother, Wife Swap, Master Chef, etc, etc) and we've seen how Hollywood can churn out some gods-awful by the numbers tripe too because it'll simply make money.

My point: I fear the very same mass consumerism, "by the numbers" approach is happening now to gaming and that disappoints me.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of people like to be told what to do and what to like and simply don't have the capacity to think outside of the box of how they were raised. How many people in this fair isle of ours have ever thought to question their Catholic upbringing or why they're so determined to vote Fianna Fáil because it's what their parents did? I don't think these people are stupid, I think they've been bombarded by so many mixed messages that to try and figure it out is far too difficult and being different is frowned upon in our society (says this obscure heavy metal loving, computer game playing, pagan who was using the internet 10 years before most of his friends had even heard of it ).

TL;DR:
Pop music isn't in and of itself a bad thing and neither is "pop gaming." I'm not using that term in a disparaging or negative way, pop means popular and in a world where the majority rules, that's the way things go. I've got no beef with Dave and his friends, I don't think less of them as people, but I would suggest they might want to broaden their horizons - it might just be fun...

Shiminay

Just checking Twitter before bed and saw this link which I've only skimmed over, but I think has some relevance. I'm gonna give it a full read tomorrow when I'm less sleepy.

gizmo

Hey Dave? **** you.

Activision Blizzard Reports December Quarter and Calendar Year 2010 Financial Results

"The map pack set new Xbox LIVE records with more than 1.4 million downloads in the first 24 hours, an increase of more than 25% over last year's Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 Stimulus Package."