No List rule - discussion

Goldstein

Don't forget to include at least a 1,000 word essay with your submissions this time folks.

Part I was a perfectly enjoyable thread with some well thought out replies from others. Locking it was pure and utter nonsense imho.

God forbid people include clips of films in a films forum without the accompanying requisite ad-nauseum documentation stating the blindingly obvious reasons for their inclusion. So much for a picture painting a thousand words - quite often it seems like it's the 1,000 words option or nothing. Ironic to see this mentality prevail in a film forum.


If consistency is to be observed, applying the same criteria to the "What have you watched recently" thread should also result in that thread being locked for being the mother of all "list threads".

Seriously, I urge people to honestly compare the recent contents of both threads and tell me which one most resembles a "list".

Syferus

On the face of it it seems a zealous rule, but it's clearly there to try and force discussions away from just being boring recitations of names of films (or indeed clips of said films) and into something more enjoyable.

Understanding and accepting that, I think there is a case that the rule is at times not applied or applied too hard-handedly. I'd love to hear other peoples' suggestions as to a more equitable enforcement of the existing rule or a rule that replaces the current one with something all parties feel protected by, as enforcers and as posters. A change to the thread title would be advisable, though!

mawk

I durn likes the music and the pictures.


the prelude before the intro is great too

edit---
whats wrong with my embedding? cant make it work

Sad Professor

List threads are against charter for reasons that are pretty well outlined in the charter. They are a potential plague on this forum. Many people try and get around this rule in various clever ways. Posting YouTube clips or posters is one of them. Sometimes a list thread is allowed continue a few pages to see if some discussion will develop. But certain ones are locked immediately because it's been done a thousand times before and never goes anywhere. When a mod issues a warning in the thread like johnny_ultimate did in the other thread and most people ignore it, that's pretty good grounds for locking it.

The recently watched thread is excepted from this rule to stop people starting a new thread consisting of one line every time they watch a film. But as it is that thread is a hive for spammers. I've had to delete several spam posts from it in the last week. Spammers love list threads as it allows them to go undetected and build up a few pointless posts before they start spambotting the place.

And as for cleaning up threads rather than locking them, it isn't always worth the effort. I did this with a few threads a while ago. I even added "No lists" to the title of the threads and posted a warning in-thread. People ignored it and continued posting lists. I ended up spending more time deleting posts than the OP spent starting the thread. The thing about list threads is that people tend to not read them, they just immediately hit quick reply and starting listing.

johnny_ultimate

Think it’s only fair to weigh in with my opinion on the matter.

With the opening scenes thread, it may be a well-worn topic (search will throw up plenty examples of it in the last year) but yes I agree there is potential for discussion in the opening gambit. Our role isn’t to lock threads willy-nilly and enforce the law like mindless slaves. Our role is to facilitate discussion. I tried to steer the discussion in a more interesting manner with a post asking people to explain their choices. It was ignored by many, although I admit a few were willing to participate. But they were a minority, so going by the well established rule here I locked it after a number of one-line responses. Yes, I could have tidied it, but do you think we have the time to actively monitor and delete every post in potentially listy threads here? No, we’re just users here too, and frankly no need to insult us about it.

The ‘no lists’ rule has been in place for years here, through a number of changes of moderators. We’ve all agreed that it’s a beneficial rule, and personally speaking I’m very reluctant to change it (although will re-open this thread for debate). This is a film discussion board: the best threads in this forum are the ones where users actively engage with each other and debate a topic back and forward. We don’t and couldn’t expect essays all the time, it’s just always beneficial to discussion when users take the time to express their opinion in a manner other than simply posting a youtube clip (which can help back up an opinion, let it be said). I’m not moderating here to be ‘hip’, I’m moderating because I want to talk about film. When people are just posting lists of films with no argument to back them up, I personally don’t find it interesting. And I can’t be alone, given all the other users who are and have been happy with the rule over the years. We have a few exceptions to the rule - such as the what have you watched recently thread - but one or two don't disrupt the flow of the forum in the ways a lot of them would. Once one 'best whatever...' thread is allowed, what's to stop a 'best ending', 'best middle act' or 'best third scene' thread? We're just trying to find a balance, but experience has shown one list thread will lead to another, ultimately driving regular users away.

There are plenty of other film message boards online, many of whom will allow lists. Look at imdb – how many threads there just descend into one line responses with the frequent insult for good measure? It’s not fun to read when I just want to talk about movies. And the film board here has a tonne of good people with a real passion and knowledge of cinema – willing to discuss everything from the latest big budget blockbuster to classic cinema. It’s nice to be able to engage in an interesting discourse with other people, and sometimes even more fun when people fail to agree. Film is a fascinating topic to talk about, and that’s all most of us are trying to do here. This film board has a good solid community, and we don’t want their voices drowned out in pages of repetitive lists.

Richard Dower

No point in Pm'ing mods, they'll just rattle off some waffle, i've seen SOOOOOOOOOOO many infractions related to the rules it's a joke.

Galvasean

This is why I'm not a moderator anymore. You'd all be banned now, BANNED! Ya hear me? BANNED! :mad:

Penn

I absolutely agree with the no list rule. Threads like "Best opening scene" always have potential to be great threads, whether you partake in the discussion or just read through it.

However, when it just turns into people saying the name of the movie, it's utterly pointless. What makes that one better than the others? Why is it a great opening? How did it affect the rest of the movie? Did it set a specific tone?

Who wants to read a list of movies? Or even just "American History X. Great opening."

This is a discussion forum. Discuss things.

Galvasean

It's a pain in the ass for the Mods to delete every useless listy comments, but essential for the forum to survive as a discussion forum. Kudos to the Mods who do it and survive (where I descended into madness).

*SLLLLLLURP!!!*

Richard Dower

Galvasean wrote: »

This is why I'm not a moderator anymore. You'd all be banned now, BANNED! Ya hear me? BANNED! :mad:

Right way to be!, man if they made me a tv mod i'd have everyone gripped by fear, i'd go power mad!!!!!!!!!!!

johnny_ultimate

Richard Dower wrote: »

No point in Pm'ing mods, they'll just rattle off some waffle, i've seen SOOOOOOOOOOO many infractions related to the rules it's a joke.

In fairness, if you PM any of us we'll respond if it's a reasonable issue or query, or at least I know I will and I'm sure Prof and faceman would too - again, don't paint the hundreds of moderators on here with the same brush. If someone breaks the rules - especially with regards to asking for downloads, insults or purposeful spoilers - yes we'll surely issue infractions, but that's why the rules / infractions are there for in the first place. We only rarely ban anyone on here barring the frequent spammers, and anyone we have has repeatedly broken the few rules we have here which 99% are able to happily follow.

krudler

Barrington wrote: »

I absolutely agree with the no list rule. Threads like "Best opening scene" always have potential to be great threads, whether you partake in the discussion or just read through it.

However, when it just turns into people saying the name of the movie, it's utterly pointless. What makes that one better than the others? Why is it a great opening? How did it affect the rest of the movie? Did it set a specific tone?

Who wants to read a list of movies? Or even just "American History X. Great opening."

This is a discussion forum. Discuss things.

Agreed, I dont mind when people put a youtube video up and discuss WHY they like it, or list off things and the reasons why, but these endless "braveheart, best movie ever" posts get tiresome. banter is fine, points are fine, itd be nice to just get some decent debate going at times.

Otis Driftwood

IIRC Karl Hungus tried it a couple of years ago when he was forum mod - relaxing the no list rule - and it was pretty bad,multiple threads of 1 post wonders,no thanks.

Syferus

No one has put forth any suggestion as to way to provide better protection for them while maintaining the integrity of the forum. It's all well and good opposing something but it's not helpful to oppose it outright without a valid solution. I'm somewhat ambivalent to the rule; ideally I don't like any stops put on people expressing themselves, but likewise it's hard to say the rule doesn't artificially raise the level of discussion above what it otherwise would be.

It's better than nothing, and nothing better immediately comes to mind. The issue, I suppose, then is application of the rule, the subjective nature of it. How many words maximally constitute a 'list' post in each moderator's eyes? If someone only has a short sentence of say, five or six words about a film is it not valid? Likewise, how many of them moves a moderator into considering shutting down a thread? 'Knowing it when you see it' is a hard concept for people to accept when you're essentially locking their (mostly) well intentioned thoughts down.

johnny_ultimate

Syferus wrote: »

No one has put forth any suggestion as to way to provide better protection for them while maintaining the integrity of the forum. It's all well and good opposing something but it's not helpful to oppose it outright without a valid solution. I've somewhat ambivalent to the rule; ideally I don't like any stops put on people expressing themselves, but likewise it's hard to say the rule doesn't artificially raise the level of discussion above what it otherwise would be.

It's better than nothing, and nothing better immediately comes to mind. The issue I suppose, then, is application of the rule, the subjective nature of it. How many words maximally constitute a 'list' post in each moderator's eyes? If someone only has a short sentence of say, five or six words about a film is it not valid? Likewise, how many of them moves a moderator into considering shutting down a thread?

Again I can only stress there is no word count on posts, that would be an absurd demand on our part. Some people can express an opinion in two or three sentences. Others take more. But mostly it comes down to opinion. If someone writes a line or two about why they like a particular film, scene or whatever then I'm happy. It's more the posts with no personal input, a name / clip, or a simple 'this is the greatest scene ever' type remark with no backup. You can usually tell from looking at a thread whether discussion is going to start or not. But it's hard to be consistent, and I'm very opposed to the concept of a word count. In general, and this is the best I can offer in terms of transparency since we don't have any strict protocol we follow, it's simply the threads dominated by blanket one line statements or film names with no explanation are the ones that get locked.

AnonoBoy

I think the list rule prevents threads like this:

Best fight scenes evaaaa!!!!!

1. Matrix
2. Matrix
3. Matrix
:cool:

Followed by:

NO WAYYYY!!!!

1. Mortal Kombat
2. They Live
3. Matrix


Closely followed by someone going.

Noobbss!!1 :rolleyes:

1. Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon
2. Rocky IV
3. American Ninja.


etc. etc. etc.


To be honest, without discussion who the hell wants to read a thread like that? And saying something like this:

Matrix is the best fight scenes cause it's frickin' awesome that's why!

does not count as discussion.

Sad Professor

Otis Driftwood wrote: »

IIRC Karl Hungus tried it a couple of years ago when he was forum mod - relaxing the no list rule - and it was pretty bad,multiple threads of 1 post wonders,no thanks.

Yeah, the rule was gone completely for a while. As I recall Karl was always getting accused of being too harsh on list threads. There was a certain troll (who is no longer with us) who felt quite strongly about his right to post lists. Karl loosened the rules and then everyone started moaning to bring it back.

Hank_Jones

The thing about list threads is though, is someone gives a topic, for example, there was recently a thread on Polish films.
So, basically if someone lists 5 films in a post and nothing else, with this continuing on, the thread will be shut down.

While I do appreciate the more knowledgeable members of the forums opinions on films,
that doesn't mean that I don't want to have a look at what others might have to say (list) on certain film subjects.

How am I ever supposed to learn about certain films if people aren't even allowed to list them?

Just to use this thread from Documentaries as an example: http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055777919

Some people are basically just giving links to youtube videos, or links to imdb and a few words.
Still some very good documentaries though.

Goldstein

That's all very civilised lads. I was expecting some fireworks. Beta Goldstein was on standby

My bad with the original title but ironically, I'd just finished writing a long winded reply myself in that one that was locked, hence the slight rant-eske tone. I was trying to provoke a debate on the issue more than anything. Didn't really expect one to manifest itself though so kudos for not instantly locking this one, which must have been the instinctive response, and taking the time to respond constructively.

I tend to just ignore the meaningless one liner posts, easy enough to gloss over them although I appreciate it would be annoying if they comprised an overwhelming majority of the thread content. The worthwhile or well-considered posts (such as The Mad Hatter's in the instance of the opening scenes thread - I watched Touch of Evil this evening because of that) more than make up for the bad, to my mind. I can just speak for myself here but there are times when skipping a pointless one-liner in a one-second scan is infinitely preferable to wading through a long paragraph of words-for-words-sake gibberish explaining, for example, who Darth Vader is. Brevity and concision can sometimes trump excessive explanation.


My point is wordcount isn't everything. If it ever gets to the stage where the average poster has to second-guess their contribution by first asking themselves:

• How long is my sentense(s)? (Better pad it out a bit)
  
• Have I used a video link? (That's frowned upon)

...that'll be a sad day, will lead to far less numbers participating and would be even more destructive than any proclivity towards lists. Instead of flowing discussions, you could end up with consecutive presentations. I'm obviously playing devil's advocate here but hey, discussion and debate are healthy.


Syferus was right though - moaning without providing a solution is pointless. Blame "the government" for everything mentality.

So what's the alternative to the no-list (or list-eske/unsupported youtube links) ban? Have a 5th separate film sub-forum for it? An appropriate euphemism may be required. "Favourites" Forum for instance.

Suppose that would just be effectively a spam forum but might save some time modding wise. Not really serious but it's one idea at least.

mikhail

While I agree with the rule in general, it does seem to be applied with an excess of enthusiasm. I just read that "best opening scenes" thread. Scrolling quickly back through the thread, I counted 11 posts where someone justified his selection, and 12 where they didn't, two mod messages and one person whining about lists. I found the thread interesting, and would have had something to say. Infract and delete the list posts if you must, but in my opinion the mods spoiled an interesting thread.

Someone above raised the spectre of a ban for the OP. As a former mod on two other sites, I think that's pathetic and childish. This thread asked for a discussion on a controversial rule applied in a questionable fashion. Questioning the decision via PM would have brought a boilerplate response from the mod, maybe even incurred his wrath - that's all that ever does.

ziedth

I lurk allot here ( and post a little) but I was sorry to see that thread locked. An interesting subject might come out of it. Although I agree it should have been locked

Maybe an option would be to stick a very obvious bolded mod note in the OP of such threads, seperate paragraph right at the start or end.

I'd say that the odd list post in a thread is fine but I do admit it become draining scrolling through allot of them.

Duggy747

The no list rule works in some regards but, in the case of Best Opening Scenes thread, I thought it was dealt out too harsh & quickly. Didn't even get a chance to add my own spin to it

The rule helps to keep a thread above a certain level before it eventually runs out of steam. All it takes is for a few people to post up a useless 1 liner list post which doesn't contribute to the discussion and it gets shut down.

It does ruin the flow of a thread when you're reading through people's long and descriptive posts before eventually you come to the:

Poster1 wrote:

I thought X film was shìte!............that is all

and

Poster2 wrote:

Poster1 wrote:

I thought X film was shìte!............that is all

:eek:

I guess you can't stress out hard enough that not explaining your choice in a reply ruins a thread but sometimes it feels the rule is dealt out too harshly in some regards. Still, I prefer it to exist than have nothing at all. I remember when it was removed and this forum went to hell altogether with useless & repetitive threads.

Sad Professor

mikhail wrote: »

Someone above raised the spectre of a ban for the OP. As a former mod on two other sites, I think that's pathetic and childish. This thread asked for a discussion on a controversial rule applied in a questionable fashion.

The OP's post has been edited since. It was originally titled "Best opening to a film ever...Pt II". There is a general rule on this site about questioning a mod's action on thread. I was also responding to a poster (now deleted) who went off on an insulting rant about moderators.

Questioning the decision via PM would have brought a boilerplate response from the mod, maybe even incurred his wrath - that's all that ever does.

Nonsense. A friendly pm to a mod will always get a better response than going off on a rant in the forum. Like RopeDrink said earlier, that's a big paint brush being waved around.

The Mad Hatter

Regarding the opening scenes thread, I thought that had a lot of potential for great discussion, but after Johnny Ultimate's warning in the third post, most of the posts were still along the lines of "Film title - best evar", so I can understand why it was locked. I'd say that type of thread should be fine, though, so long as there's some kind of note in the OP to say "please say why you think this is a great opening.

(Just my two cents as a noob on the forum…)

P. S. Goldstein, I hope you enjoyed Touch of Evil. It's not his best film, but Welles gets far too little attention for his career post-Kane.

johnny_ultimate

OK, since quite a few people have expressed interest in the best opening scenes topic, I'm going to edit out the 'list' posts and give it a second chance to stem some discussion as an experiment. Hopefully it won't set a precedent for a cavalcade of 'best .... ever' threads, but I'm happy to give it another chance. And once again we seriously don't expect paragraphs explaining why, just a sentence or two underneath a title or clip explaining why something works for you - it may be obvious in some cases, but everyone has their own reasons for liking something. Trust us, it truly will create a far more interesting thread

Would it be possible to create a sub-forum in Films that is solely dedicated to list threads, but have it similar to the Cuckoos Nest, where posts there will not increase your postcount?

johnny_ultimate

The thing about creating a subforum is that I personally don't think 'list threads' is a large enough topic to justify a subforum. It would just lead to repetition IMO, and I really question whether it would be any fun to read.

One thing I have been thinking about for a while is a 'general discussion' thread for the main film forum, or even repurposing the 'what have you watched recently thread' to a more general discussion thread. It's worked in other forums. The benefit IMO would be a thread more open to 'banter' and reinforcing the community here. We could relax the list thread there, and let people post lists of whatever topic they want. Hopefully people would be a bit creative with their lists too. I think we could justify one thread where we relax the rule, but a dedicated forum would - I think - be quite a dull, repetitive place to trudge through.

Penn

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

I think we could justify one thread where we relax the rule, but a dedicated forum would - I think - be quite a dull, repetitive place to trudge through.

I'd also say it would divert some discussion away fom the main Film forum itself

johnny_ultimate

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

The thing about creating a subforum is that I personally don't think 'list threads' is a large enough topic to justify a subforum. It would just lead to repetition IMO, and I really question whether it would be any fun to read.

You could adopt a similar style that is taken in the Ranting and Raving forum, where you have one sticky thread asking people to read it first before posting, containing the topics that has been discussed previously, which might stem the chance of multiple threads?

Sad Professor

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

One thing I have been thinking about for a while is a 'general discussion' thread for the main film forum, or even repurposing the 'what have you watched recently thread' to a more general discussion thread. It's worked in other forums. The benefit IMO would be a thread more open to 'banter' and reinforcing the community here.

Like an off-topic thread?

johnny_ultimate

Sad Professor wrote: »

Like an off-topic thread?

Yeah, pretty much. Just a place with relaxed rules where people can post whatever they want (within reason, of course!) film related. It would be far easier to maintain than a full forum, and wouldn't take attention away from the main forum. Anything from film related links, recommendations, lists, banter etc... that may not demand a full thread.

Sad Professor

Re: a separate forum for lists: I'm against it because it would basically be a spam forum. The mods would use it as a dumping ground, lazy posters would use it to increase their post count, thoughtful posters would avoid it like the plague, and the admins would get so sick of the spammers taking up residence there that they'd eventually delete it. I don't even think we even need a separate thread for it. If people really just want to post lists then they can do so on their blog or on Facebook.

And nobody has said there needs to be a high word count, or that people need to make detailed presentations. I post Youtube videos all the time, and I post one line replies all the time. There's no problem with this. The problem is when the entire thread consists of lists and one line replies in which everyone ignores each other and no discussion takes place. Ideally people wouldn't start the kind of threads that lead to this and then we wouldn't need the stupid rule.

There are plenty of great examples of threads that could have turned into list threads but didn't because the OP put a bit of effort in. Darko's Blu-ray thread for example is far superior to the multiple "What DVDs/Blu-rays do you recommend" threads that pop up from time to time because Darko's first post set the tone for the rest of the thread and shaped the discussion that followed.

Even if someone is looking for a film recommendation, posting a big list isn't helpful to them. After a few pages they are going to end up with several hundred films to choose from. And since nobody talked about the films they won't know where to start. They aren't going to type each of the films mentioned into IMDB to find out what they are about. Therefore, it would be far more helpful if, instead of listing 10, people mentioned one or two films and said a bit about why they like them, or, better yet, responded to other poster's suggestions thereby creating discussion/debate, etc.

johnny_ultimate

What gets me about recommendation threads is when people don't read the OP, and start recommending random crap that isn't what the the OP asked for had they read the opening post. Like 'recommend me a film like Amelie' and getting The Dark Knight recommended by someone :pac:

I'll have to resurrect the Mega Recommendation thread which actually showed quite a bit of potential. Unfortunately, it probably needs to be stickied in order for it to work properly, and I'm not sure if we need another sticky.

Sad Professor

The problem with stickies is that people tend to ignore or glance over them. For example, the charter has been viewed 833 times and it's been there since September. This thread has been viewed 866 times and it has been here since yesterday.

johnny_ultimate

Sad Professor wrote: »

The problem with stickies is that people tend to ignore or glance over them. For example, the charter has been viewed 833 times and it's been there since September. This thread has been viewed 866 times and it has been here since yesterday.

Yeah, I'm not a fan either - they're easily ignorable unless you know the sticky is there and are actively looking for it. I may try and bump the recommendation thread and see if we can keep it afloat for a while.