Dublin Bus Price Increases

AlekSmart

http://nationaltransport.ie/downloads/NTA_Consideration_of_Dublin_Bus_Fare_Increase.pdf

€1.20
€1.65.
€1.85
€2.30

Average of 2.1% increase with those longer commuters paying a fair bit more...4.3% in the case of the largest cash-fare.

All Schoolchild and Child fares remain unchanged as do pre-paid tickets......for now

Victor

Why oh why couldn't they have done away with the 5c?

wildefalcon

Real world, meet NTA.

BOOM!

Cookie_Monster

show me where inflation has been 4.5% in recent times?

How on earth can they justify raising prices? Network Direct has for the most part ruined many services, they are taking buses off the road, reducing services. Costs apart from fuel should be falling with the improved technology, reduction in staff and a younger more modern (and smaller) fleet.

Madness, and no one will do anything about it, not even with the election on the cards. Jacking up prices is not a way to combat falling revenue.

The only thing this will do is drive a few more % of the remaining customer base away driving the circle....

AlekSmart

NTA Fare Increase Determination :Recognising this, the Authority is restricting the fares increase to an average of 2.1%,
across all cash fares, listed in Table 1, below. The average across adult fares is 3.7%.
The step increment in fares available for increases is 5c or multiples of 5c. While it is
recognised that handling fares which do not include 5c may be more straightforward for
customers and drivers, this must be weighed against the expense (to customers) of
increasing fares by 10c or (to Dublin Bus) of deferring rises. The available step
increments also prevent the application of an equal percentage increase across all fare
bands.

The other interesting,albeit typically out-of-date,is this little corker....

The 2006 Census shows while there are 938,512 adults (those over 17
years of age, eligible to drive) resident in Dublin, there are 481,856 registered cars. This
equates to car ownership of 51%, implying a heavy reliance on public transport for a
large segment of society.

Some rather massive assumptions being made here in Full-On Celtic Tiger land.

These NTA lads are i dotters and t crossers par excellence...they have a long career ahead of them I forsee

Patser

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

How on earth can they justify raising prices? Network Direct has for the most part ruined many services, they are taking buses off the road, reducing services. Costs apart from fuel should be falling with the improved technology, reduction in staff and a younger more modern (and smaller) fleet.

Massive drop is passenger numbers so less income, higher fuel costs, cuts in Govt Subvention. So whatever about the savings the companies' have made over the last year, the drop in their revenue has to be recouped somehow.

In the last budget when the Govt raised fuel duty and cut payments to the companies, these price rises were immdiately predicted by the media and posters here.

AlekSmart

In the last budget when the Govt raised fuel duty and cut payments to the companies,

Oddly enough Patser,when the Fuel Duty Rebate was ended by the Minister a committment was given that a compensatory system of fuel-cost relief would be introduced for bone-fide operators.....That particular committment was never honoured....odd that...or perhaps not

Cookie_Monster

Patser wrote: »

the drop in their revenue has to be recouped somehow.

Basic tenant of economics that increasing prices reduces demand, even with "necessary" services.

Many people won't have a choice about using service for commuting but many will cut extra discretionary journeys especially when you consider the mess that is ND. Several posters on here have already stated they cannot or will not use the bus because the service has been destroyed, a 4.5% increase on the most common (commuting*) fare will see many others think the same way.

*ie suburbs to town and back

markpb

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Many people won't have a choice about using service for commuting

In fact, poorer people won't have a choice and will be forced to pay the increase but better-off people will have a choice and may well decide not to bother using the bus, especially if Network Direct has left them with a poorer service.

Of course, there's also the elephant in the room - it's suspected that these fare increases are only there to allow the ePurse fares on the integrated ticket to be "cheaper" and encourage people to use it.

liger

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Madness, and no one will do anything about it, not even with the election on the cards. Jacking up prices is not a way to combat falling revenue.

Well at the last election FG were promoting that they would privatise the transport service. Havnt seen there 2011 manefesto yet.

cson

Cash fares should be done away with for the most part. Copy tfl or whatever the standard is these days and set the standard fare on any journey as €2/€3 and rely on prepaid cards. **** who's ever inconvenienced by it for those few weeks before they actually cop on and get an oyster/emerald card/whatever they call it.

Victor

cson wrote: »

emerald card

Runs off to ™ this. :pac:

Victor

Victor wrote: »

Runs off to ™ this. :pac:

Yes, they exist already

http://www.irelandexpert.com/money_savers_irish_rail_bus_passes.htm (may have been withdrawn)
http://www.hrblock.com/bank/emerald_prepaid_mastercard/index.html

CIE

AlekSmart wrote: »

http://nationaltransport.ie/downloads/NTA_Consideration_of_Dublin_Bus_Fare_Increase.pdf

€1.20
€1.65
€1.85
€2.30

Average of 2.1% increase with those longer commuters paying a fair bit more...4.3% in the case of the largest cash-fare.

All Schoolchild and Child fares remain unchanged as do pre-paid tickets......for now

So much for common sense. Destroy route options and make riding the remaining bus routes more expensive. Watch the timetables on the new "more frequent" routes subsequently get slashed in half. How much of a subvention will be required for the next fiscal year?

Aard

They really should have gone for simplification. Something like:

Flat child fare €0.80
Adult 1-7 stages €1.50
Adult 8+ stages €2.00

CIE

Aard wrote: »

They really should have gone for simplification. Something like:

Flat child fare €0.80
Adult 1-7 stages €1.50
Adult 8+ stages €2.00

I agree with simplification, but stages don't aid that; therefore drop stages and go with zones. Second zone should perhaps start where the old Outer Suburban Fare zone from the 70s/80s started, which would put its maximum border a little under ten miles from the city centre (12 miles in the case of Dunboyne). Change the child fare to either under 12 (tricky, since that would also require ID) or a height of less than or equal to maximum height of fare box.

Aard

Don't get me wrong, the stages are awful. I was merely working within the DB parametres!


Another way could have been to drastically increase all of the lower fares, then less drastically decrease the prepaid fares. (Specifically the travel-90 ten pack.)

lil5

[wouldn't have done DB any harm to publish the new fare prices as well ...]New Cash Fares 2011 - http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/News-Centre/Travel-News/New-Cash-Fares-2011/Monday, January 31, 2011 Dublin Bus wishes to advise customers that from Sunday 6th February 2011, adult cash fares will increase. For journeys of 13 stages and under, the fares will increase by 5 cent. Over 13 stages, outer suburban and Xpresso fares will increase by 10 cent. There will be no increase to child fares.

the groutch

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/dublin-bus-hikes-ticket-prices-491657.html

Dublin Bus fares for adults are on the rise, in some cases by 10c per ticket.

The National Transport Authority has approved a 2% increase in the cost of an adult ticket.

This means that some prices will be hiked by 10c.

The change is due to take effect on Sunday.

A decision is expected in the coming weeks on fare increase proposals from Irish Rail and Bus Éireann.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/News-Centre/Travel-News/New-Cash-Fares-2011/

New Cash Fares 2011


Monday, January 31, 2011


Dublin Bus wishes to advise customers that from Sunday 6th February 2011, adult cash fares will increase. For journeys of 13 stages and under, the fares will increase by 5 cent. Over 13 stages, outer suburban and Xpresso fares will increase by 10 cent. There will be no increase to child fares

so now we're going to pay more for a recently disimproved service, in a time where if anything we're in deflation.

and to top it off they give the absolute minimum of notice, so we'll spend the next few weeks with the buses being a whole lot slower, because nobody will know about the increase, and will have to fumble around for the extra 5c/10c.

(btw, I'd recommend that those who can afford to stock up on prepaid tickets, as their prices are likely to increase too)

techdiver

This is typical of what goes on in Ireland. The bus service on my route in Dublin has dis-improved so much that I am now for the first time in my life driving to work because I find it more convenient and quicker. I'm sure many other people have and will start doing the same also. So more cars on the road, which will do little to reduce congestion and pollution. (It will however increase receipts on petrol and diesel duty.... :rolleyes:).

So in short the transport strategy of this country is a failure as well as everything else.

Cool Mo D

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Basic tenant of economics that increasing prices reduces demand, even with "necessary" services.

That is generally true, but it doesn't mean that raising prices won't increase revenue at the end of the day.

And there are some goods that have increased demand at higher prices, although obviously that does not apply to public transport fares.

Anyway, what clearly should happen is that Dublin Bus should set a flat cash fare of 2.50, and a flat pre-pay fare of 1.80, and make all tickets (cash and pre-pay) offer an included transfer. I know that it would be a big increase in cost for people making short trips, but I would guess that those who make short trips are likely to make more journeys in a day then people with longer journeys, and it will even out to an extent with a daily cap

DoesNotCompute

Thank Christ I've got my annual point-to-point rail ticket, that's all I'll say

etchyed

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Basic tenant of economics that increasing prices reduces demand, even with "necessary" services.

It's "tenet". And I'm sure the NTA are fully aware of this.

Cookie_Monster

etchyed wrote: »

It's "tenet".

well not according to spellcheck it wasn't :P

etchyed wrote: »

And I'm sure the NTA are fully aware of this.

given some of their other assumptions and data usage from that report I wouldn't be so sure.
Using census 06 figures in the current era is a bit useless.

schemingbohemia

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

well not according to spellcheck it wasn't :P

given some of their other assumptions and data usage from that report I wouldn't be so sure.
Using census 06 figures in the current era is a bit useless.

Should they just make up figures? Or should they use the last verifiable figures available? Journey to work figures while useful don't provide hard facts which is what the census does.

kthnxbai

the groutch wrote: »

(btw, I'd recommend that those who can afford to stock up on prepaid tickets, as their prices are likely to increase too)

Didn't the prepaid tickets only just recently have a price increase? Can't see them doing it again so soon. Like I'm pretty certain it was only 3 months

stop

So any bets on how long it'll be until prepaid tickets get jacked up again?

Travel90 is now once again the same price as a 8-12 stage fare, can't be having that, folk might actually switch from cash!

the groutch

kthnxbai wrote: »

Didn't the prepaid tickets only just recently have a price increase? Can't see them doing it again so soon. Like I'm pretty certain it was only 3 months

think it's been about 6 months, and I still wouldnt put it past them

ArmaniJeanss

Quotes from the OP.

NTA wrote:

The National Transport Authority has approved a 2% increase in the cost of an adult ticket.

DublinBus wrote:

Over 13 stages, outer suburban and Xpresso fares will increase by 10 cent.

So a 13 stage fare is now €2.20, and goes up to €2.30, which is a 4.5% increase??

Bazzer2

It's an average 2.1% increase.

http://nationaltransport.ie/downloads/Dublin_Bus_Fares_Announcement.pdf

ArmaniJeanss

Bazzer2 wrote: »

It's an average 2.1% increase.

http://nationaltransport.ie/downloads/Dublin_Bus_Fares_Announcement.pdf

Lol, they even contradict themselves in their own pdf document.

"The National Transport Authority announced today (January 31, 2011) that it has permitted Dublin Bus to increase its adult fares, by either 5c or 10c; an average of 2.1% across these cash fares".

Whereas in fact the average increase in adult fares from the table at the bottom of the pdf is just under 4%. (I do understand that they got this average because they didn't increase child fares).

Cookie_Monster

Bazzer2 wrote: »

It's an average 2.1% increase.

http://nationaltransport.ie/downloads/Dublin_Bus_Fares_Announcement.pdf

yes, but that is only a simple average. No thought put into a weighted average increase at all in there.

If the most common journey has gone up 4.5% and less common ones gone up by a 1%, the correct weighted average will be much closer to 4.5% than 2.1% for example.

Basically you need total cash journeys, number of journeys within that times the increase to get a true picture, but why bother with all that work when you can just produce simplistic lies about the actual increases.

Aard

I think Alek Smart said that 75% of adult fares are under 8 stages. In my own experience, it's also rare for a driver to charge the full child fare. That's why I suggested above amalgamating certain fares, seeing as that's how the fares seem to be structured in practice.

Jaysoose

So dublin bus reduce the number of buses and what buses are left run less frequently and they deem this a good time to raise the fares?

Its obvious that the business model being used is broken yet the management continue on regardless in the vain hope that the remaining passengers will pick up the shortfall in revenue caused by a large amount of customers that have grown tired of the below average service.

IS there any merit in allowing private operators into this city so as to break the monopoly the DB have?

DoesNotCompute

Jaysoose wrote: »

So dublin bus reduce the number of buses and what buses are left run less frequently and they deem this a good time to raise the fares?

..and all this at a time when the economy is deflating - conventional wisdom says that prices should be coming down, not going up. Also people have less disposable income due to lowering of (a) minimum wage, and (b) increased taxes (both direct and indirect).

Jaysoose wrote: »

Its obvious that the business model being used is broken yet the management continue on regardless in the vain hope that the remaining passengers will pick up the shortfall in revenue caused by a large amount of customers that have grown tired of the below average service.

IS there any merit in allowing private operators into this city so as to break the monopoly the DB have?

This would seem to make sense at first glance, but if a private operator were to break up the monopoly, all they would care about is making money, and they would discontinue any routes that didn't make any profit, leaving a lot of people screwed.

EricPraline

Patser wrote: »

Massive drop is passenger numbers so less income, higher fuel costs, cuts in Govt Subvention. So whatever about the savings the companies' have made over the last year, the drop in their revenue has to be recouped somehow.

It's a reactionary, short-term move. Higher prices combined with curtailed, inconsistent services (ie Network Direct) is only going to lead to fewer passenger and less income. Rinse and repeat.

Jaysoose

DoesNotCompute wrote: »

..and all this at a time when the economy is deflating - conventional wisdom says that prices should be coming down, not going up. Also people have less disposable income due to lowering of (a) minimum wage, and (b) increased taxes (both direct and indirect).



This would seem to make sense at first glance, but if a private operator were to break up the monopoly, all they would care about is making money, and they would discontinue any routes that didn't make any profit, leaving a lot of people screwed.

This is the obvious dilemma but if recent history in this country has taught us anything leaving these organisations to carry on as normal shouldnt be an option. The lack of imagination of common sense being shown by dublin bus is frightening and all they seem to be able to do is remove services while telling us its an improvment and increase prices because of passenger reductions. At least giving private operators a go will show us the alternatives, whats to stop the goverment giving out short term contracts to operators which get renewed based on a set of realistic guidelines which if not met then open up the market to new firms.

When you consider that the cost of running a car has risen steadily due to petrol prices etc.. dublin bus has somehow managed to alienate their customers and reduce passenger counts on a consistent basis. People should be flocking to public transport where possible but instead they are opting to drive in a lot of cases..this should be a big enough indication that dublin bus are inept at running this service. They have an monopoly and cant make a profit..something is seriously wrong.

dermo88

Using Dublin Bus, granted my experience is 9 years out of date was no priviledge, more of an ordeal. The comparison between the change in perception of public transport between the Bus and Luas on one hand, and old Black and Orange Diesel Banger trains vs DART is something to be believed.

I am somewhat baffled, that in a recessionary climate, a company chooses to increase fares on fewer customers, whereas the aim should be to FAIRLY maximise revenue.

In my eyes, that means.

(a) Free travel passes pay a concessionary fare at peak times using a smart card system of some kind.
(b) Off peak travel is rewarded.
(c) Cash fare usage is penalised, because it is inefficient.

The rollout of the smart card system has been incredibly slow. On one hand, I would not like to see pure privatisation, having seen the venal greed of failed companies such as Stagecoach and First Group in Britain, yet, see something of the best of Connex and Veolia in Ireland.

The dispersed sprawl of Dublin ensures that provision of public transport will continue to be excessive relative to population densities.

There is also the aspect of increased fuel prices, but also, the aspect of the C.I.E group having to pay the full fuel duty on their services. Fair enough, especially if you are a private operator, it does level the playing field somewhat. BUT.......there is the aspect of robbing Peter to pay Peter. The same occured with the M50 Bridge with VAT imposed on the toll, whereas it should have been included in the first place, and the consumer has already paid 20x the cost since 1991.

On several aspects of the macroeconomic front, any inflation since 2007 seems to be caused by the public sector. Frankly speaking, I am baffled, and there has been enough bitter twisted bile on my part directed, rightly or wrongly towards the C.I.E group, its management, and its unions.

Can someone neutral, partisan, non biased give me a rational non emotive, pragmatic explanation. I thought that less private transport was the answer, and more public transport. Why....yet again, when we the people are aiming to be more "Green", more environmentally friendly, more responsible, are we paying on the Double for it yet again.

Because.....if I am not mistaken, we should be paying 15% less based on the size of the economy, and wages, NOT 20% more vis a vis 2007.

Otherwise, I will be forced, to import a lot more nice 10 Baht coins from Thailand which look like 2 Euro coins to a Bus driver in a hurry. Then their deficit will be a lot worse.

I can forgive this Government suspecting that they faxed through a Banking guarantee from a pub to the European Central Bank. Its a bit better than handing over contracts like some .....(racist word deleted) Nigerian General, handing over the National Treasury, while sober after Friday prayers to their brother in law.

But not much.

AlekSmart

dermo88 wrote: »

I am somewhat baffled, that in a recessionary climate, a company chooses to increase fares on fewer customers, whereas the aim should be to FAIRLY maximise revenue.

In my eyes, that means.

(a) Free travel passes pay a concessionary fare at peak times using a smart card system of some kind.
(b) Off peak travel is rewarded.
(c) Cash fare usage is penalised, because it is inefficient.


The dispersed sprawl of Dublin ensures that provision of public transport will continue to be excessive relative to population densities.


Can someone neutral, partisan, non biased give me a rational non emotive, pragmatic explanation. I thought that less private transport was the answer, and more public transport. Why....yet again, when we the people are aiming to be more "Green", more environmentally friendly, more responsible, are we paying on the Double for it yet again.
.

Great Post Dermo88 with particular relevance to the question on Government Environment Policy and the total contradiction in how that is factored into Public Transport policy.

Noel Dempsey`s secrecy shrouded dealings with the PPP Toll Facility Franchisees is but one aspect which requires immediate full disclosure from whatever parties form a new administraion.

All public transport should be Toll-Free on All Toll Routes !

Carawaystick

AlekSmart wrote: »

All public transport should be Toll-Free on All Toll Routes !

Would you include Ryanair flights on routes which are long enough to hit passengers with actual irish gvt taxes?

Are Taxis Public transport?

Given the main toll route carrying public transport using passengers is the M50 from the Point to the M1/N32/M50 junction and no buses are hit with a toll, where do you think the cost savings are?

If there was a bus route from Lucan to Blanch via the M50Westlink, would the toll eat so much into the alternative?


I'm not being divisive, I'm just questioning the effect of tolls on public transport overall.

rebel_rebel

totally did not realise the fare increase was coming in this weekend! I only heard something about this on Matt Cooper last week. They could have given people some notice my normal fare is gone up from 1.80 to 1.85 not the end on the world but more awkward. the bus driver had to tell everyone of the fare increases today,no one was aware of it bit of a PR disaster if you ask me!

markpb

I had the dame experience as rebel this morning - almost none of the cash paying passengers (which is all of the passengers on an inner suburban route) knew about the change. Thinking back, I can't remember any buses having notices about the price changes. This is something DB have always do e in the past. Between this and the missing timetable schenanigans during ND, I'm beginning to think they fired their timetable person.

LXFlyer

There were notices on buses last week - I remember seeing them on several buses.

**Timbuk2**

On the 46a last night, loads of people were just saying "1.80" and dropping their change into the box. The bus driver didn't correct them - he put it through each time :eek:

The price on the ticket did say 1.85 though.

Losty Dublin

rebel_rebel wrote: »

totally did not realise the fare increase was coming in this weekend! I only heard something about this on Matt Cooper last week. They could have given people some notice my normal fare is gone up from 1.80 to 1.85 not the end on the world but more awkward. the bus driver had to tell everyone of the fare increases today,no one was aware of it bit of a PR disaster if you ask me!

You did get notice. It was on Matt Cooper last week

markpb

lxflyer wrote: »

There were notices on buses last week - I remember seeing them on several buses.

Which bus routes do you use? I wonder if it's an issue with some garages? My buses are mostly Harristown and Summerhill and none of them had any notices (that I saw). The 14 that I got after I posted this morning did have a poster up but I don't know what depot it is based in.

KD345

I've been on lots of buses over the last few days and they all have had a notice of the new fare structure on the display as you board and internally, and some buses had a large notice on the stairs . I also saw an ad in a newspaper and have read about it here and on other websites.

LXFlyer

markpb wrote: »

Which bus routes do you use? I wonder if it's an issue with some garages? My buses are mostly Harristown and Summerhill and none of them had any notices (that I saw). The 14 that I got after I posted this morning did have a poster up but I don't know what depot it is based in.

Quite a few different routes - certainly was not just one depot.

Chucky the tree

I noticed the external notice, but to be honest that a pretty ridiculous place as you'll only see it if a bus is stopped and your not getting on. Never noticed it anywhere else. Did they put it upstairs in the advertising spots at all? I never saw anythere the last few weeks. Putting it in spots like outside the bus and on the strairs were people go past quickly doesn't seem like a bright idea.

LXFlyer

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I noticed the external notice, but to be honest that a pretty ridiculous place as you'll only see it if a bus is stopped and your not getting on. Never noticed it anywhere else. Did they put it upstairs in the advertising spots at all? I never saw anythere the last few weeks. Putting it in spots like outside the bus and on the strairs were people go past quickly doesn't seem like a bright idea.

What I saw last week were big yellow and white notices on the buses on the advertising panel at the stairs with big letters "New Cash fares" at the top and the new fares listed below.

It was pretty hard to miss!!

KD345

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I noticed the external notice, but to be honest that a pretty ridiculous place as you'll only see it if a bus is stopped and your not getting on. Never noticed it anywhere else. Did they put it upstairs in the advertising spots at all? I never saw anythere the last few weeks. Putting it in spots like outside the bus and on the strairs were people go past quickly doesn't seem like a bright idea.

There were panels downstairs too. I also noticed revised cash fares signs on some bus stops and shelters.

Even if you only saw the external notice for a minute, you would know that fares are increasing. A quick search on the website would quickly answer any specific questions you might have.