I am ALARMED by what I'm now reading in the papers re the election...

hatrickpatrick

FG and Labour attacking eachother and FG suggesting they would accept a minority government with FF support?!?!?!?

This is NOT what I ever expected. The image I had of the Dail, post-election, was of one with a very pronounced absence of Fianna Fail from any governmental seats whatsoever.

Was it too much to dream? Are the papers jumping the gun? Could it possibly be that these buffoons will actually be allowed to hold government seats again?

I'm terrified by this FG vs Labour business - I always thought they were the potential coalition (as probably did many people) but it's actually getting harder to see that happening if they continue to launch public attacks at eachother...

...Or is this all just political posturing and there could still be the FG/Lab coalition which has up until 2 days ago seemed like the most likely outcome?

charlemont

The media is behind all this rubbish..

Oasis_Dublin

If FG allow FF to form a coalition government with them, they should be absolutely ashamed of themselves.

RobbieTheRobber

Im wonderng was one of the reasons for the failure of Fine Gael and Labour to secure a government in 2007 not blamed on the fact that they had pre election deals done on forming a coalition, which I recall being mentioned.

So could it be that both parties are this time around taking the opposiite approach to avoid the failures of 2007.

The most likely governemnt would still seem to be FG and Labour.

gandalf

It is interesting that Martin realises that the FF brand is so poisoned that he can use it to damage their sworn enemies

As for Labour they are now sliding in the polls so panic is now setting in. They are starting to lash out with the hope that they can convert a few of the undecided voters.

As for FG I do not think there is any chance that they will go into any coalition with FF. They realise that for any party a relationship with FF is toxic and normally ends in death as happened with the PD's and will soon happen with the Greens.

One thing I do expect is when this election campaign gets started proper it is going to probably be the dirtiest one ever in this country. There are going to be a lot of accusations and conspiracy theories being bandied about especially by FF to create as much fear as possible.

hatrickpatrick

I know many seem worried about the differences between their policies which will undoubtedly be touch to reconcile, but actually personally I see that as a good thing - any extreme policies either one has is likely to be somewhat tempered by the opposition of the other.

Of course, this all very much depends on how much of the vote each gets. Has the idea of a Labour/FG coalition with Labour as the bigger party and Gilmore as Taoiseach crossed people's minds? It's not outside the bounds of possibility...

Not saying I'd prefer that, just saying that the assumption Enda would be Taoiseach in such a scenario isn't necessarily an iron clad one. I have no problem with Enda myself but it seems his potential leadership of the country puts people off...

Min

I think one will find that FF would support a minorty FG government if it supported the 4 year plan.
FF would be in opposition but would not stand in the way of FG dealing with the economic situation, as stated if they implemented the four year plan.

ArtSmart

posted this elsewhere.

I see Happy getting the dig in at FG 'latchdoor' FF.
de gloves is off.

wrote:

was waiting for this from FF.

it's pretty clever.

you see, those who vote FF and vote self interest wont vote FF - why vote for a party that wont be in power? - ie, no 'pot holes' fixed.

solution? firstly, suggest FF will be in power in some form.

brilliant.

secondly, this aggravates labour and highlights the difference between labour and FG, also creating a tension in labour and giving FG a hold over labour - ie, play ball or FF are in.

it might work.

however, two probs.

first, FG know an association with FF in any shape or form may do them untold damage - this has happened to any party which accommodates FF, from the Tallaght strategy days to the greens.

second, this may actually play into labours hands - that is, if the public - a public that hates FF, thinks they may get back into power as FG partners, even subordinate power, they may swing to labour.


politics. ye gotta love it.

ETA to clarify, the terminology might suggest facilitation of a minority govt, but the subtext is 'partnership', most definitely.

Dannyboy83

If a FG/FF coalition is going to get this country back on track - that's fine by me.

I don't believe an ANYONE+LABOUR coalition will.

irishconvert

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

FG and Labour attacking eachother and FG suggesting they would accept a minority government with FF support?!?!?!?

This is NOT what I ever expected. The image I had of the Dail, post-election, was of one with a very pronounced absence of Fianna Fail from any governmental seats whatsoever.

Was it too much to dream? Are the papers jumping the gun? Could it possibly be that these buffoons will actually be allowed to hold government seats again?

I'm terrified by this FG vs Labour business - I always thought they were the potential coalition (as probably did many people) but it's actually getting harder to see that happening if they continue to launch public attacks at eachother...

...Or is this all just political posturing and there could still be the FG/Lab coalition which has up until 2 days ago seemed like the most likely outcome?

Doesn't make any difference, FG & FF are same party, just a different logo.

seamus

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

If a FG/FF coalition is going to get this country back on track - that's fine by me.

I don't believe an ANYONE+LABOUR coalition will.

That's funny because it was a FG+Labour coalition who put this country on the tracks in the first place before FF derailed it again in the 2000's...

hatrickpatrick

irishconvert wrote: »

Doesn't make any difference, FG & FF are same party, just a different logo.

It's more the principle of it. FF are the party who have f*cked up our country, they should not be allowed anywhere near government for many, many years.

Floppybits

I was thinking about this when I read all the attacks by Labour on FG and vice versa. In my humble opinion I think FG feel they can form a government on their own and this is why they are attacking Labour and I feel that Labour think can be the senior partner in a government with FF with Gilmore as Taoiseach, which is not what they will get if they go into government with FG.

I cant see a FG/FF coalition but I can see a LB/FF coalition.

gandalf

seamus wrote: »

That's funny because it was a FG+Labour coalition who put this country on the tracks in the first place before FF derailed it again in the 2000's...

As an ex-labour party member the leadership was far stronger back then. I do not have the faith in the current leadership of labour to be strong enough to make the difficult decisions. I also believe they are particularly weak with the economic portfolio now.

Floppybits wrote: »

I cant see a FG/FF coalition but I can see a LB/FF coalition.

Labour are still licking the wounds from the last time they made the mistake of going into power with FF. I do not see them repeating this error again even with FF as a minority partner.

This country needs a period of FF out of power.

Dannyboy83

seamus wrote: »

That's funny because it was a FG+Labour coalition who put this country on the tracks in the first place before FF derailed it again in the 2000's...

Doesn't matter what happened 15 years ago or 15mins ago at this stage.

Gilmore has said the Croke Park Agreement is staying in place - that means we are going to be taxed into oblivion.
That's not going to fix the country and I won't vote for that.

Half the point of getting FF out of office was to prevent one section of society benefiting at the expense of the rest (e.g. bankers/builders).

Labour intend to do the exact same thing - simply with a different group of beneficiaries.

Floppybits

gandalf wrote: »

Labour are still licking the wounds from the last time they made the mistake of going into power with FF. I do not see them repeating this error again even with FF as a minority partner.

This country needs a period of FF out of power.

Gandalf, I would have agreed with you on the above over the last few weeks but I think Gilmore sees this as a chance for a Labour Taoiseach. The question to be asked is Would Gilmore turn down the chance of being Taoiseach, if it meant going into coalition with FF?

The attacks from both FG and Labour on each have been pretty savage, so much so that I even think FF will get a bounce from it because people are going to be saying to each other how can FG and LB co-exist in government while they are tearing strips of each other. They are actually destroying each others chances of power while putting FF in a position where they could form so part of the next government.

InigoMontoya

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I'm terrified by this FG vs Labour business - I always thought they were the potential coalition (as probably did many people) but it's actually getting harder to see that happening if they continue to launch public attacks at eachother...

...Or is this all just political posturing and there could still be the FG/Lab coalition which has up until 2 days ago seemed like the most likely outcome?

The latter, I would think. This seems more like Labour and FG trying to maximise their own vote in order to have the strongest position when it comes to forming a government. They both have aspirations of their own; FG to have a majority on their own; Labour to be the leading party in government. I don't think any of this will form a real barrier to them working together if the expected outcome (FG/Lab coalition) emerges.

There are real differences too of course, but any more than in the past when we had FG/Labour or FF/Labour or FF/Greens? Probably not.

outandabout

I am ALARMED by what I'm now reading in the papers re the election
...
My advice is to stop reading the papers. I know which way I'm voting and won't be influenced by the media unless one of my selected candidates is found to be corrupt.

CokaColumbo

I'm not really understanding the intense hatred for Fianna Fail and the promotion of the likes of Labour and Fine Gael in Ireland at the moment.

I can understand why people want to get FF out of power but it is absolutely clear to me at least that the crisis we are in would never, ever have been avoided had Labour or Fine Gael been in office. These parties should be saying, "there but for the grace of God go I" because these parties never rejected, to my knowledge, the very things which got us into this mess, i.e. artificially low interest rates on borrowing money set by the ECB, state guarantees of financial institutions, tax incentives in the property market etc., all of which fuelled an investment bubble and irresponsible lending practices in the banking sector...

Do people not understand that the whole political establishment is essentially guilty of the same crony-capitalist, big government nonsense which promotes the idea that government can manage markets better than markets can manage themselves? What we need is not a government made up of leftists but rather of fiscal conservatives who believe in free-markets and low taxes and who are willing to make the tough decisions and balance our budget.

Bottle_of_Smoke

If FF only had 5/6 TDs then I don't think it would be a big deal at all for them to go into power with FG. Though I think they'll get more so FG would be hated if they agreed.

Thing is though, if it did happen and fall apart (which is highly likely considering the economic hopes of this country over the next decade or two) we'd be pretty much guaranteed a Sinn Fein/Labour government being the next in power, in that there'd be no one else left to vote for!

Nehaxak

So it goes like this...

Don't vote Labour as they would go into government with FG or FF or anyone really that would give them power.

Don't vote FG as they would go into government with FF.

Don't vote FF. No explanation needed.

Nobodies going to vote for the Greens.

It's no wonder SF are gaining public support. Keep it up please, I'm finding it all hilarious

Mr.Micro

Toxic FF are latching on to FG, a) in the hope of getting transfer votes by appearing to align itself along FG. b) to put a divide between FG and Labour, and it looks like Labour have swallowed the bait. I fear that FG may lose many voters unless it distances itself unconditionally from toxic FF. I for one will not vote for FG if there is even a hint that it would do a deal of any sort with FF.

b63

Hello
just curios what does everyone think of the above article stating all the business money is going to Lab and fine Gael lately.It makes lab. and FG claims FF were the big business party and in business men's pockets look like dodgy or just spin? he showed even Larry Goodman was donating money to FG party,
Just makes you wonder whats relly going on?
B63:)

gussieg

it seems to me in these hard times becoming a TD is not as funky or beneficial as it was back in the day what with the pension cuts the travel expenses cutbacks and all, sure it would hardly be worth your while getting out of bed to go in for a cup of tea in the Dail these days. So my question is, what are we prepared to give these poor beknighted saintly souls who put themselves forward for election or re-election? What are we going to sacrifice to afford them a decent holiday with the wife/partner and kids/pets this year? :D:rolleyes::o:pac:

bmaxi

From what I can remember this type of sparring has always gone on. How could Labour sell themselves to the working classes by being seen to embrace the right wing policies of FG and FG would mirror this to the middle clases. It's all about maximizing the vote, Labour don't want voters leaking to SF or FG to FF.

Min

seamus wrote: »

That's funny because it was a FG+Labour coalition who put this country on the tracks in the first place before FF derailed it again in the 2000's...

The economy was improving all through the 1990's, before FG, Lab and the DL got power and after.

Tragedy

seamus wrote: »

That's funny because it was a FG+Labour coalition who put this country on the tracks in the first place before FF derailed it again in the 2000's...

It's quite odd that you say that, as figures are fairly conclusive in showing that it was Ray McSharrys ridiculously unpopular budget that actually got this country on the tracks.

nesf

FG and Labour are only at each other's throats because each is vying for a bigger number of seats so they'll be able to push more of their policy into to the synthesis that will make up the next Government's plan. Labour's weakness on the Economy though is the biggest issue I see for them at the moment, they need more concrete plans and they need them fast. The broadband plan was a good start but it's a drop in the ocean for what they require.

Bob Z

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I know many seem worried about the differences between their policies which will undoubtedly be touch to reconcile, but actually personally I see that as a good thing - any extreme policies either one has is likely to be somewhat tempered by the opposition of the other.

they don't have extremely different policies. They just don't get on

[Jackass]

The Irish media is notoriously FF inclined.

Basicly, to avoid a FG majority, they are pushing a perception (already ruled out by FG) that FG may go into Goverment with FF, so that FG wont get the majority to fix up the country and also playing Labour and FG against eachother to give FF ammo to shoot down a coalition, whilst also "rebranding" the party to say this is a fresh bunch of people (which it's not) and forget the past, NOW we have the right ideas.

Pretty much ensuring that the FF party isn't wiped out completely.

Typical Irish media bullsh*t and it's clearly working, as usual. Oh well. God forbid we have a fair and honest election based on fact and policy. Too much corruption and back scratching in Ireland for it ever to sucseed as a nation. It's rotten to the core with FF representing everything that's wrong with the country imo.

the groutch

this is really playing into the hands of SF, there are alot of people out there who will do anything in their power to make sure FF have no part in the next government

[Jackass]

Yup, it sure is. And if the media manages to do it's demolition job on FG as they always do in the lead up to elections, then don't rule out a FF / Labour / SF coalition.

jmayo

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

FG and Labour attacking eachother and FG suggesting they would accept a minority government with FF support?!?!?!?

This is NOT what I ever expected. The image I had of the Dail, post-election, was of one with a very pronounced absence of Fianna Fail from any governmental seats whatsoever.

Was it too much to dream? Are the papers jumping the gun? Could it possibly be that these buffoons will actually be allowed to hold government seats again?
...

It won't happen.
As Varadkar yesterday said they don't agree on banking policy, health policy, etc.
Also FG have seen the toxicity of ff in the past.
They finished the PDs, most likely the greens and the screwed up Labour for years.
So don't worry FG won't go there even if it appears they are closer on policies than it appears with Labour is at the moment.

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

If FG allow FF to form a coalition government with them, they should be absolutely ashamed of themselves.

Won't happen.

Min wrote: »

I think one will find that FF would support a minorty FG government if it supported the 4 year plan.
FF would be in opposition but would not stand in the way of FG dealing with the economic situation, as stated if they implemented the four year plan.

ff don't do what is good for the country.
See haughey and refusing to ever support FG in the 80s.

ff only do what is good for themselves.
FG are not stupid enough to ever trust ff.

[Jackass] wrote: »

The Irish media is notoriously FF inclined.

Basicly, to avoid a FG majority, they are pushing a perception (already ruled out by FG) that FG may go into Goverment with FF, so that FG wont get the majority to fix up the country and also playing Labour and FG against eachother to give FF ammo to shoot down a coalition, whilst also "rebranding" the party to say this is a fresh bunch of people (which it's not) and forget the past, NOW we have the right ideas.

Pretty much ensuring that the FF party isn't wiped out completely.

Typical Irish media bullsh*t and it's clearly working, as usual. Oh well. God forbid we have a fair and honest election based on fact and policy. Too much corruption and back scratching in Ireland for it ever to sucseed as a nation. It's rotten to the core with FF representing everything that's wrong with the country imo.

martin has been playing this card in an effort to firstly shore up some support for themselves, show that they are willing to do things for the benefit of the country (for once) and most importantly drive a wedge between FG and Labour.

It's about as believable as ff under martin have turned over a new leaf.
For proof of that just view martin's front bench.
Incompetence and unethical behaviour are rewarded as usual. :rolleyes:

The thing that really worries me is how in f***s sake could an opinion poll find that martin was the best man as taoiseach ?

We really, as a nation, having a f**king clue. :mad:

ghostdancer

seamus wrote: »

That's funny because it was a FG+Labour coalition who put this country on the tracks in the first place before FF derailed it again in the 2000's...

this is the FG+Lab coalition that was only in power for 3 years since 1987??
i'm sure FF, in power for most of that time, had nothing to do with that growth, right? :rolleyes:

ghostdancer

nesf wrote: »

FG and Labour are only at each other's throats because each is vying for a bigger number of seats so they'll be able to push more of their policy into to the synthesis that will make up the next Government's plan. Labour's weakness on the Economy though is the biggest issue I see for them at the moment, they need more concrete plans and they need them fast. The broadband plan was a good start but it's a drop in the ocean for what they require.

yeah, nothing to do with the fact they've quite different policies in several areas... :rolleyes:

the socialist members of Labour, and the right-wingers in FG, working in perfect harmony :pac:

Oasis_Dublin

ghostdancer wrote: »

this is the FG+Lab coalition that was only in power for 3 years since 1987??
i'm sure FF, in power for most of that time, had nothing to do with that growth, right? :rolleyes:

You make a reasonable point. The economy didn't properly start to pick up until 1994 how and ever.

Fianna Fáil led growth after 2003 involved building a construction bubble and we all know how that turned out. I admit this is slightly simplistic but it has a firm basis in truth.

jmayo

ghostdancer wrote: »

this is the FG+Lab coalition that was only in power for 3 years since 1987??
i'm sure FF, in power for most of that time, had nothing to do with that growth, right? :rolleyes:

Isn't it marvellous how ff are always responsible for the good things, but never the bad things ?

They are responsible for all the growth in our economy and the growth in employment, but not responsible for the fall in competitiveness, the disasterous construction bubble, the closure of indigenous small enterprises, the exit of multinationals, the insolvency of our indigenous banking system, the bill for the above left on the shoulders of the taxpayers and the arrival of the IMF and ECB. :rolleyes:

Perhaps someone could con a university research grant to study this phenomenon ? :rolleyes:

Tragedy

jmayo wrote: »

Isn't it marvellous how ff are always responsible for the good things, but never the bad things ?

They are responsible for all the growth in our economy and the growth in employment, but not responsible for the fall in competitiveness, the disasterous construction bubble, the closure of indigenous small enterprises, the exit of multinationals, the insolvency of our indigenous banking system, the bill for the above left on the shoulders of the taxpayers and the arrival of the IMF and ECB. :rolleyes:

Perhaps someone could con a university research grant to study this phenomenon ? :rolleyes:

That's nice, but has nothing to do with the fact that the economy both pre and post rainbow coalition was down to FF. Unfortunately, you among others only assign responsibility to FF for the bad while refusing to acknowledge the good. Yes they screwed up and screwed up badly post 01/02, bit you absolutely refuse to admit they actually did good previously.

jmayo

Tragedy wrote: »

That's nice, but has nothing to do with the fact that the economy both pre and post rainbow coalition was down to FF. Unfortunately, you among others only assign responsibility to FF for the bad while refusing to acknowledge the good. Yes they screwed up and screwed up badly post 01/02, bit you absolutely refuse to admit they actually did good previously.

Ehh they were had set the seeds to our destruction prior to 2002, although it was after 2002 they got the watering can out and added lots of fertiliser.
ahern had started the crazy sh** of creating quangoes and upping public sector spending from the very first year of his reign in 1997.

Someone earlier mentioned mcsharry and he is often forgotten in all this.
The ff government of haughey and mcsharry set the ball rolling or rather stopped us from having to get in the IMF and then started the ball rolling.
The funny thing is he brought in worse budgets than the previous FG/Labour government had, which he had been vociferously complaining about.
Also FG under dukes backed him and actually put the country first.

The ff/Lab and FG/Lab/DL governments had kept thing s goign along nicely.
Upto 2002 ahern and ff had managed to do the same ven though they had embarked on the worrying increased spending on public sector.

After the end of the dotcom bubble, we started losing real jobs and the cheap credit bubble allowed them turn the economy into a total farce.

Worse still bertie turned "socialist" after his meeting with that priest and the bad 2004 election result, sent mcgreevey to Brussels and really started the madness that is going to screw us for years.

Tragedy

If you don't know that there are two periods to the Celtic tiger and lump 97 to 2007 together, I'm not going to even argue with you.

jmayo wrote: »

Ehh they were had set the seeds to our destruction prior to 2002, although it was after 2002 they got the watering can out and added lots of fertiliser.
ahern had started the crazy sh** of creating quangoes and upping public sector spending from the very first year of his reign in 1997.

Someone earlier mentioned mcsharry and he is often forgotten in all this.
The ff government of haughey and mcsharry set the ball rolling or rather stopped us from having to get in the IMF and then started the ball rolling.
The funny thing is he brought in worse budgets than the previous FG/Labour government had, which he had been vociferously complaining about.
Also FG under dukes backed him and actually put the country first.

The ff/Lab and FG/Lab/DL governments had kept thing s goign along nicely.
Upto 2002 ahern and ff had managed to do the same ven though they had embarked on the worrying increased spending on public sector.

After the end of the dotcom bubble, we started losing real jobs and the cheap credit bubble allowed them turn the economy into a total farce.

Worse still bertie turned "socialist" after his meeting with that priest and the bad 2004 election result, sent mcgreevey to Brussels and really started the madness that is going to screw us for years.

gbee

Which is why the only votes from me this time will be for Sinn Féin and maybe one or two Independents.

jimmycrackcorm

Nobody has suggested that FG and FF were going into coalition except Gilmore. anything FG are saying is geared to putting pressure on Labour that a FG+LAB coalition won't be easy negotiating for them.

gbee

It is important that FF don't get back in, my opinion, obviously.

But on a Sunday program the analyser said the FF were gearing up for a minority government with Enda as Taoiseach.

Not for me.

PeterIanStaker

Its all just posturing and chest beating by the dominant males really.

zootroid

What basis do Labour have for accusing FG of wanting to go into power with FF?

Also, didn't Labour say they wouldn't go into power with FF in 1992 only for it to happen? Similar to the Greens in 2007.

The last time I voted, I voted FG, Labour, Green on the basis I wanted to see FF out as I was sick of the corruption and waste of public money. I was disgusted to see the Greens go into government with FF.

As for Labour, I don't like Gilmore one bit. Pat Rabbitte seems a much more genuine politician (if such a things exists), and Gilmore leans towards the left too much for my liking.

An FG-Labour coalition could have worked under Rabbitte, but I can't see it working under Gilmore.

All that said, FG alone will get my vote

nesf

ghostdancer wrote: »

yeah, nothing to do with the fact they've quite different policies in several areas... :rolleyes:

the socialist members of Labour, and the right-wingers in FG, working in perfect harmony :pac:

They've done it before, many times. Coalition between the parties is nothing new and compromising on policy is in both parties' traditions when in Government.

They'll sell very different messages to the public but when push comes to shove they'll work out a workable plan for Government because the other option is letting FF back into power in some form and neither party would be forgiven for doing that by a large segment of the population. Plus their voters vote knowing that coalition is extremely likely so they won't get everything on the party's manifesto.

Victor

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

FG and Labour attacking eachother and FG suggesting they would accept a minority government with FF support?!?!?!?

Do you knot understand that a minority government (no FF ministers) is different from a majority coalition (FG+FF ministers)?

FG are saying they are not going to be beholden to Labour and are using hte various permutations as a stick to beat Labour with.

aidan24326

Will there be anyone at all worth voting for is all I'm worried about.

There is such a lack of credible candidates from any of the parties, and as much as FF have messed up badly we can't assume that FG/Lab will be a whole lot better. They might, but you sure as hell wouldn't bet your life on it.

It's a sad state of affairs that even with FFs shameful performance over the last deacde and more some people will end up voting for them again due to the poor alternatives and a general perception (probably correct) that Enda Kenny is not good Taoiseach material.

Firefox11

the groutch wrote: »

this is really playing into the hands of SF, there are alot of people out there who will do anything in their power to make sure FF have no part in the next government

I think it's more of the mainstream parties will stop at nothing to have SF holding the balance of power come the end of the election. Sure Socialism is the latest fad this year.:cool:

Oasis_Dublin

Tragedy wrote: »

That's nice, but has nothing to do with the fact that the economy both pre and post rainbow coalition was down to FF. Unfortunately, you among others only assign responsibility to FF for the bad while refusing to acknowledge the good. Yes they screwed up and screwed up badly post 01/02, bit you absolutely refuse to admit they actually did good previously.

94 the Celtic Tiger begins to roar. Post 2003, exports fall, FF build a bubble and destroy the IFS, which right minded FG (and their fore fathers fought so hard for) had no responsibility. Please keep blaming everyone else though, says enough.

nesf

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

94 the Celtic Tiger begins to roar. Post 2003, exports fall, FF build a bubble and destroy the IFS, which right minded FG (and their fore fathers fought so hard for) had no responsibility. Please keep blaming everyone else though, says enough.

I find it amusing that you seem to imply that the Rainbow Coalition actually had something to do with the Celtic Tiger starting and didn't just happen to be in power at the right time.