Labeling and children waiting assements and resources.

Chuchoter

I don't agree with everything they do, but to be honest I think we are far too lax in Ireland in terms of performance/behavior. Its not necessary to do ten instruments and a sport and be great at art and get all As, but I do think we are way too nice sometimes. Even just thinking of my own brother, in the interests of 'building self esteem' and 'not putting him under pressure', my parents basically let him feck around all year and now he is doing pathetically in almost everything when he is capable of so much more.

The other thing they don't have in east Asian countries is this labeling of absolutely everything as some sort of syndrome. I am not at all saying that there are no kids who legitimately have ADD or dyslexia, but I think they are over diagnosed. I did a few weeks in a primary school last year and I was put helping the table of all the kids with learning disabilities/behavior problems and about half the table was seriously trying their best and didn't mean to start talking or get distracted and the other half were just brats.

The other huge issue I see with this labeling so early on is it is so limiting and often does not examine alternate possibilities. When I was 6, I was doing crap at everything and first thing they thought was dyslexia. It turned out I needed glasses and couldn't see anything, within a year I was reading fluently. I just think we should encourage kids to do their absolute best rather than saying oh you have x syndrome, you can basically stop trying now.

byhookorbycrook

Dyslexia is generally not diagnosed until 8yrs. How were such severe vision problems missed? Any of my caseload who have dyslexia certainly do not have the "down tools approach", nor do their parents.

astra2000

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Dyslexia is generally not diagnosed until 8yrs. How were such severe vision problems missed? Any of my caseload who have dyslexia certainly do not have the "down tools approach", nor do their parents.

Exactly my daughter 8 is recently diagnoised with dyslexia, we had to wait until she was eight for assessment as any younger was too soon to know.
Crayolastereo there is a difference between suspecting someone is dyslexic and it been diagnoised. The kids you describe as brats might well be or it could be a sympton of add or something else.

Chuchoter

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Dyslexia is generally not diagnosed until 8yrs. How were such severe vision problems missed? Any of my caseload who have dyslexia certainly do not have the "down tools approach", nor do their parents.

I have no idea how they were missed but they were anyway and the first point of call anyone went to was dyslexia/learning disability. It was my senior infants teacher who noticed I stopped looking at the board after about 5 minutes. Had everyone just gone oh learning disability kid I would have never been pushed harder to do my best, it would have been just written off as thats the best I could do as happened with a large percentage of the people I know who were viewed by teachers in this way. This is in contrast to my other friend who was diagnosed with dyslexia very late and she is doing better for it, because she was never able to give herself the excuse of I have dyslexia. I'm not at all saying these conditions don't exist, far from it, I'm just saying labeling people as x,y or z is limiting.

astra2000

crayolastereo wrote: »

I have no idea how they were missed but they were anyway and the first point of call anyone went to was dyslexia/learning disability. It was my senior infants teacher who noticed I stopped looking at the board after about 5 minutes. Had everyone just gone oh learning disability kid I would have never been pushed harder to do my best, it would have been just written off as thats the best I could do as happened with a large percentage of the people I know who were viewed by teachers in this way. This is in contrast to my other friend who was diagnosed with dyslexia very late and she is doing better for it, because she was never able to give herself the excuse of I have dyslexia. I'm not at all saying these conditions don't exist, far from it, I'm just saying labeling people as x,y or z is limiting.

Tbh your opinions are very out of touch with what is actually happening in schools nowadays. The reason kids with learning difficulties get extra help is so they are not written off. Been diagnoised with dyslexia does not give you an option to excuse yourself from trying to do your best, it gives you an alternate way of overcoming your difficulties and learning to the best of your abilities. Problems with eyesight/hearing/speech will be picked up on in school by the public health nurses who carry out visits to the school and carry out checkups. Each child is seen by these nurses a number of times during their national school education. Also if childrens parents take their role as their childs main educator and carer serious, they stand a good chance of noticing any problems their child may have.
Imho been labelled as dyslexic is much better than been called a slow learner which is what kids used to be called when they had learning problems.
I find it amazing that you think someone having a learning difficulty is been labelled, do you share the same opinion when someone has a physical condition ie asthma, diabetes.

This is slightly off topic ( maybe it should be another thread )...if anyone reads some of my posts and replies to threads you would probably realize i am mildly dyslexic..but the thing i am so glad i was never diagnosed when i was in school, there was a teacher when i was in fifth year who did suspect but nothing came of it, i did okay in my leaving cert and i went on to third level education.

I am not saying that children should not be helped but i do think there is rush to label everything, if anyone is interested in this topic they should read up on labeling theory and how people live up or DOWN to the diagnoses they are given.

Again i am not saying children don't need to be diagnosed, but proceed with caution and don't be afraid to question whether the diagnosis will help the child.

Back on topic that women is completely over the top in my opinion.

cynder

astra2000 wrote: »

Tbh your opinions are very out of touch with what is actually happening in schools nowadays. The reason kids with learning difficulties get extra help is so they are not written off. Been diagnoised with dyslexia does not give you an option to excuse yourself from trying to do your best, it gives you an alternate way of overcoming your difficulties and learning to the best of your abilities. Problems with eyesight/hearing/speech will be picked up on in school by the public health nurses who carry out visits to the school and carry out checkups. Each child is seen by these nurses a number of times during their national school education. Also if childrens parents take their role as their childs main educator and carer serious, they stand a good chance of noticing any problems their child may have.
Imho been labelled as dyslexic is much better than been called a slow learner which is what kids used to be called when they had learning problems.
I find it amazing that you think someone having a learning difficulty is been labelled, do you share the same opinion when someone has a physical condition ie asthma, diabetes.

Thanks for that, im in the process of trying to get my son labeled as he has seen specialist for the last 2 years and he has no diagnosis (label) he needs a diagnosis to be able to get all the resources he needs for school, without that label he wont, Im just off the phone again to the early intervention services and he hasnt seen a psychologist in 20 months as he was waitlisted, turns out his psychologist left 18 months ago and he wasn't assigned to another one, we were left in limbo.

Hoping that he gets assessed before he starts school as they don't want to take him unless he gets a SNA and he cant get an SNA until he has been assessed. There is a stong chance he has learning difficulties and adhd, he is also waitlisted for a full asd assessmentt. He only has 11 months left with them as they only work with 0-5 year olds and then he will be transfered eleswhere.

astra2000

grindelwald wrote: »

Thanks for that, im in the process of trying to get my son labeled as he has seen specialist for the last 2 years and he has no diagnosis (label) he needs a diagnosis to be able to get all the resources he needs for school, without that label he wont, Im just off the phone again to the early intervention services and he hasnt seen a psychologist in 20 months as he was waitlisted, turns out his psychologist left 18 months ago and he wasn't assigned to another one, we were left in limbo.

Hoping that he gets assessed before he starts school as they don't want to take him unless he gets a SNA and he cant get an SNA until he has been assessed. There is a stong chance he has learning difficulties and adhd, he is also waitlisted for a full asd assessmentt. He only has 11 months left with them as they only work with 0-5 year olds and then he will be transfered eleswhere.

You must be so fustrated with the system, it is the same in our area educational psycologist retired last yr and hasnt been replace, however the school were able to contract a psycologist to do the evaluation, so we were lucky. Our other option would have been to pay a private psycologist for the evaluation 450 euro approx, thats a lot of money, our school said (last year) they would contribute half, luckily though due to school been able to contract someone we didnt have to pay to have her assessed.
Would your childs future school be in a position to fast track your sons assesment? Last week my little girls speech therapist told me that the fact that my husband and I are so involved with our childs education and extra needs, is a great benefit to her, that there are many parents who leave a lot of it up to the teachers, I am not blowing my own trumpet:), but telling you to take heart, you are doing your best for your little fellow and he is lucky to have a mom who will do her utmost to help him. Best of luck

Sorry op for dragging your post so ot!! I think pickarooney summoned it up nicely.

cynder

astra2000 wrote: »

You must be so fustrated with the system, it is the same in our area educational psycologist retired last yr and hasnt been replace, however the school were able to contract a psycologist to do the evaluation, so we were lucky. Our other option would have been to pay a private psycologist for the evaluation 450 euro approx, thats a lot of money, our school said (last year) they would contribute half, luckily though due to school been able to contract someone we didnt have to pay to have her assessed.
Would your childs future school be in a position to fast track your sons assesment? Last week my little girls speech therapist told me that the fact that my husband and I are so involved with our childs education and extra needs, is a great benefit to her, that there are many parents who leave a lot of it up to the teachers, I am not blowing my own trumpet:), but telling you to take heart, you are doing your best for your little fellow and he is lucky to have a mom who will do her utmost to help him. Best of luck

Sorry op for dragging your post so ot!! I think pickarooney summoned it up nicely.

Thanks, school are pushing us to have him tested privately, im trying to get him fast tracked because we have been left in limbo so long but there are 40 other kids on the same waiting list. I try to do the work with him at home but he wont co-operate with us, laughs and runs away. Its a all day thing with him loads of repetition while his on the move, he cant sit still to learn he has no interest in it. His speech has come on but he is way behind at least 1.5 years behind.

The school have offered us no help, but i do have a meeting with the principal at 11.30 tomorrow.

Just to add he is seeing the speech therapist weekly and she has to diagnose him with a specific speech disorder she could be assessing him now but she isn't, so im going to push that with her tomorrow at 1.30 (his next speech therapy session).

Sorry for dragging thread of track.

*goes to hit head against a brick wall

astra2000

Grindlewald, push for assessment with the speech therapist, I am suprised she is holding back on doing this, maybe its because of his age. Apparently if a child is diagnoised with a speech disorder they will get help more so than for dyslexia. Ask your speech therapist to speak with her superior to see if they can help push for an assesment or can reccommend any thing else you could try. I know it is expensive to get a private diagnoisis but if you can do this and get him into they school system then his school would be in a better position to help.
As for your little boy not cooperating, my sister had the same problem with her lad he was diagnoised with a severe speech development, gets resource hours in school for this, but she said it is just this year since he is in first class that he cooperates, amazing what a bit of maturity does! Thankfully he has no learning problems and is making improvement.

Thanks to whichever mod moved this tread, I think this new tread could be of a great help to parents interested in this area.

Aruba08

To the OP I think your observations and opinions are questionable

I am the mother of a 5 year old child that could have been labeled as slow, moody, clumsy, odd, bold......and he could have slipped right through the net leaving me with no marriage and probably on anti-ds

However his assessment process began at age 2 and a half. Something wasnt right. Services kicked into place with Speech and Language and Occupational Therapy. Every aspect of his development was looked at. By age 4 he had a diagnosis of High functioning Autism. Straight away appropriate preschool was put in place and intensive SaLT and OT . we worked so so hard.

Guess what my son is now in a mainstream school in Junior infants and playing and hanging around with all the other local boys. he has resource and an SNA. The continue the intervention. He does not have a quarter of the challenges he used to have as we have addressed them and worked hard at fixing them

Early Intervention is the key. The earlier recognition of a problem and diagnosis the better. 2 years ago my child was tormented and confused and had no speech...now he has just come in the door from school with his day chatting away happy out with everything.

Cat Melodeon

Crayolastereo, I think you should re-read labelling theory to be honest. If you look at the work of Memmi and especially Goffman alongside Becker's original work on labelling theory, you will see that the main issue is not with the self-fulfilling prophecy of being labelled, but with the non-acceptance of those with differences by the dominant 'normal' groups. In simple terms, the problem is not with being labelled, but with the responses of the mainstream to the person labelled as different. So while current educational policy is to integrate children with SEN into the mainstream school and while resources are put in place to support that child and their teachers, and while those SEN children are encouraged to participate as 'normally' as possible in society, there are NO resources in place to ensure that society also shifts its perception of what is 'normal'.

You might see a child who does not sit nicely as 'bold'. For them, being energetic and having a poor attention span is their normality, whether for reasons of SEN or culture or upbringing. They know no different and your negative reaction towards them (without having read their (confidential) detailed assessments or having access to the rationale behind their IEPs) nicely demonstrates the prejudices of mainstream 'normal' society. It is the reaction to the label, not the label itself, that causes difficulties.

Lady Chatterton

I have to say that I was really upset to read the OP's opinion on labeling. I fully accept that she is entitled to her view but people need to understand the pain and suffering that parents have to endure when their child has a developmental difficulty before they pass judgement on them or their child. My cousin who is also my best friend (so we are exceptionally close) raised concerns about autism with her GP when her son was 15 months, she felt that her concerns at the time were dismissed because she was a first time mother. When her child was 26 months she approached the Public Health Nurse and again her concerns were dismissed so she ended up going to the local early intervention team who thankfully did listen and put her son on a waiting list for autism assessment. Her child had to wait for over a year to be seen but he was finally diagnosed with autism. It is very difficult for anyone who hasn't had a child assessed to understand how stress inducing and how heart wrenching the process is. It involves having the child assessed on numerous occasions by a multi disciplinary team - Occupational Therapist, Speech and Language Therapist and Psychologists.

In the last year I have been studying child psychology and special needs education as I wanted a better understanding of what my cousin and her child are going through and so I would be equipped to help out in some meaningful way. What I have found from my work experience is that some parents of newly diagnosed children often receive a hostile reaction from members of their own families for labelling their child while others are afraid to tell friends and family incase their child will not be accepted. It is a difficult time for parents when their child is first diagnosed, for some there is a grieving process so support from family and friends is crucial. I notice that many of the people that are against labelling are not directly affected by developmental delay or disability. I really wish that there was a better understanding, recognition and acceptance of people who learn differently and have additional needs.

To end on a positive note, my cousin's little boy is doing very well in a mainstream pre-school, he continues to receive lots of early intervention (most of it privately unfortunately) but his speech has come on really well and he able to socialise. I see the benefits of having a diagnosis here, this child is doing so well as he is receiving appropriate intervention which would not have been possible without a diagnosis. Early diagnosis and intervention is absolutely paramount.............

I think its a very complex area and its not as simple as society not accepting difference. I am not saying that children should not get a diagnosis and early intervention of course they should, i was only speaking for myself when i said i was glad i didn't get labeled as having dyslexia when i was in school as i know for me it would not have helped and in fact the struggles i had and the coping strategics i developed have made think differently and see my way around problems, but i am only speaking for myself.

Something else that make me think.. how come your are more likely to get a diagnosis of some kind of behavior problem or learning difficulty if you are from a disadvantage background....

Lady Chatterton

I hope no one minds me posting this poem. It is called "Welcome to Holland". When I was on work experience, I received this poem from a mother of a child who was diagnosed with a disability. I think that it expresses very eloquently what being a parent of a child with special needs is like. I think it is beautiful and I hope it comforts any parent who is going through a difficult time at the moment.

“Welcome to Holland"
By Emily Perl Kingsley, 1987.

I am often asked to describe the experience of raising a child with a disability - to try to help people who have not shared that unique experience to understand it, to imagine how it would feel. It's like this......
When you're going to have a baby, it's like planning a fabulous vacation trip - to Italy. You buy a bunch of guide books and make your wonderful plans. The Coliseum. The Michelangelo David. The gondolas in Venice. You may learn some handy phrases in Italian. It's all very exciting.
After months of eager anticipation, the day finally arrives. You pack your bags and off you go. Several hours later, the plane lands. The stewardess comes in and says, "Welcome to Holland."
"Holland?!?" you say. "What do you mean Holland?? I signed up for Italy! I'm supposed to be in Italy. All my life I've dreamed of going to Italy."
But there's been a change in the flight plan. They've landed in Holland and there you must stay.
The important thing is that they haven't taken you to a horrible, disgusting, filthy place, full of pestilence, famine and disease. It's just a different place.
So you must go out and buy new guide books. And you must learn a whole new language. And you will meet a whole new group of people you would never have met.
It's just a different place. It's slower-paced than Italy, less flashy than Italy. But after you've been there for a while and you catch your breath, you look around.... and you begin to notice that Holland has windmills....and Holland has tulips. Holland even has Rembrandts.
But everyone you know is busy coming and going from Italy... and they're all bragging about what a wonderful time they had there. And for the rest of your life, you will say "Yes, that's where I was supposed to go. That's what I had planned."
And the pain of that will never, ever, ever, ever go away...because the loss of that dream is a very very significant loss. But...if you spend your life mourning the fact that you didn't get to Italy, you may never be free to enjoy the very special, the very lovely things ... about Holland.

Nevyn

crayolastereo I completely disagree with you.
You are young and not an educational professional and not trained in the area of dealing with special needs kids and don't know the process like parents do either.
What ever mistakes you think your parents may have made re your brother you can't assume that is happening with posters here.

I was relieved when I was told my son has Aspergers Disorder, I had a label, a term, a frame of reference to start maping what came next, what he needed and went from being lost to knowing there was a way to manage it and his life so he could grow and learn and be happy.

Lady Chatterton

mariaalice wrote: »

I think its a very complex area and its not as simple as society not accepting difference. I am not saying that children should not get a diagnosis and early intervention of course they should, i was only speaking for myself when i said i was glad i didn't get labeled as having dyslexia when i was in school as i know for me it would not have helped and in fact the struggles i had and the coping strategics i developed have made think differently and see my way around problems, but i am only speaking for myself.

Something else that make me think.. how come your are more likely to get a diagnosis of some kind of behavior problem or learning difficulty if you are from a disadvantage background....

I agree it is very complex area and I think it can be very difficult for parents when a child's disability is "hidden". I have spoken to countless parents of children with ADHD and autism who have been approached in supermarkets by people giving them parenting advice because the people in question were not aware that the child had a disability.

For many children with autism the supermarket creates huge sensory processing issues but because the disability isn't always apparent it can look like the child is misbehaving. This can cause no end of stress for child and his/her parent(s).

cynder

Well CEIS just called me, the new psychologist is starting in march and my son will be one of her first clients (whippeee) i will have a date tomorrow evening. She is also going to do a full ASD assesment , Light at the end of the tunnel (i think he has ADHD rather than an ASD, but he does tick some of the boxes for an ASD so it will be good to know either way) and then i can see about getting him assessed for ADHD but that may not happen until he is in school, but because he is in pre school and is experiencing difficulties she might look into it. She will also see if he has learning difficulties (which i think he may have, how deep they go i have no idea) but with the right resources all will be good.

Aruba08

mariaalice wrote: »

Something else that make me think.. how come your are more likely to get a diagnosis of some kind of behavior problem or learning difficulty if you are from a disadvantage background....

really??? can I ask what exactly you base this on?? Statistics?

I know children and adults with all types of disability and "label" from all different backgrounds.
How do you define a disadvantaged background?

Lady Chatterton

grindelwald wrote: »

Thanks for that, im in the process of trying to get my son labeled as he has seen specialist for the last 2 years and he has no diagnosis (label) he needs a diagnosis to be able to get all the resources he needs for school, without that label he wont, Im just off the phone again to the early intervention services and he hasnt seen a psychologist in 20 months as he was waitlisted, turns out his psychologist left 18 months ago and he wasn't assigned to another one, we were left in limbo.

Hoping that he gets assessed before he starts school as they don't want to take him unless he gets a SNA and he cant get an SNA until he has been assessed. There is a stong chance he has learning difficulties and adhd, he is also waitlisted for a full asd assessmentt. He only has 11 months left with them as they only work with 0-5 year olds and then he will be transfered eleswhere.

If your child is under 5 you could consider making an application under the "Assessment of Need" process. This means that the when you submit your application and if it is accepted by the Assessment of Need Officer, the HSE have to ensure that your child's assessments commence within 3 months and are fully completed within 6 months. My cousin went through this process to have her son diagnosed (autism). The Assessment of Need is a legal process so the HSE have to meet this timelines as per the Disability Act 2005, if they don't you have recourse under the Act.

Aruba08

grindelwald wrote: »

Well CEIS just called me, the new psychologist is starting in march and my son will be one of her first clients (whippeee) i will have a date tomorrow evening. She is also going to do a full ASD assesment , Light at the end of the tunnel (i think he has ADHD rather than an ASD, but he does tick some of the boxes for an ASD so it will be good to know either way) and then i can see about getting him assessed for ADHD but that may not happen until he is in school, but because he is in pre school and is experiencing difficulties she might look into it. She will also see if he has learning difficulties (which i think he may have, how deep they go i have no idea) but with the right resources all will be good.

best of luck with it all! I hope you get some answers

astra2000

In defence of crayolastereo, she didnt actually start this tread but posted in reply to the "chinese parenting versue western" tread. As there was so many ot replies to her post a mod moved these posts to a tread of their own. Hopefully it will be of help to parents whos child/children are currently experiencing difficulties.
When I was young (now 37) there was no help in any of the schools for children who were struggling. I think the changes that have occured in that area, while maybe still lacking, are great.

Lady Chatterton

grindelwald wrote: »

Well CEIS just called me, the new psychologist is starting in march and my son will be one of her first clients (whippeee) i will have a date tomorrow evening. She is also going to do a full ASD assesment , Light at the end of the tunnel (i think he has ADHD rather than an ASD, but he does tick some of the boxes for an ASD so it will be good to know either way) and then i can see about getting him assessed for ADHD but that may not happen until he is in school, but because he is in pre school and is experiencing difficulties she might look into it. She will also see if he has learning difficulties (which i think he may have, how deep they go i have no idea) but with the right resources all will be good.

Good luck with the assessments, I hope everything goes really well for your little man. ADHD isn't usually diagnosed until a child is in primary school but there is normally long waiting lists for ADHD assessment. It depends where you live in the country but it is usual 12 months +. I'd recommend asking the psychologist in March to make a referral to the CAMHS team, the sooner you're on the list the better. You can always cancel it if you don't need it.

astra2000

mariaalice wrote: »

Something else that make me think.. how come your are more likely to get a diagnosis of some kind of behavior problem or learning difficulty if you are from a disadvantage background....

Had my daughter been my oldest child I would have questioned if we as parents were doing something wrong and causing our childs learning problems, and comments like this would serve to make me feel even worse. Luckily I have 2 older children who are extremly clever and learn easily so I knew we had not caused the problem. I really feel for parents whos kids have extreme problems and come upon this type of attitude.

astra2000

grindelwald wrote: »

Well CEIS just called me, the new psychologist is starting in march and my son will be one of her first clients (whippeee) i will have a date tomorrow evening. She is also going to do a full ASD assesment , Light at the end of the tunnel (i think he has ADHD rather than an ASD, but he does tick some of the boxes for an ASD so it will be good to know either way) and then i can see about getting him assessed for ADHD but that may not happen until he is in school, but because he is in pre school and is experiencing difficulties she might look into it. She will also see if he has learning difficulties (which i think he may have, how deep they go i have no idea) but with the right resources all will be good.

Thats great, your perseverance paid off.

cynder

MrsD007 wrote: »

If your child is under 5 you could consider making an application under the "Assessment of Need" process. This means that the when you submit your application and if it is accepted by the Assessment of Need Officer, the HSE have to ensure that your child's assessments commence within 3 months and are fully completed within 6 months. My cousin went through this process to have her son diagnosed (autism). The Assessment of Need is a legal process so the HSE have to meet this timelines as per the Disability Act 2005, if they don't you have recourse under the Act.

Done that 2 years ago he got assessed to say he needs further assesment which we didn't get, but looks like he will be getting it this march. He receives speech therapy, early intervention educator 1 on 1 and group, he also is wait listed for psychology and for wait listed for a full asd assesment, question mark over adhd and needs further investigation, this was all set out in his needs. His assesment of need was completed over 1 and a half years ago.

Most kids have a diagnosis but my guy doesnt they like to diagnose adhd when the child is at school and they haven't said he has it but they have said things that would fall hand in hand with adhd. Thinking that's where the delay is. But the school need a diagnoses of adhd for him to get a SNA which he needs, he has a part time pre school assistant and goes two days on his own but he does put the preschool under pressure, they said he could not manage in a class of 28 with only 1 teacher. He is a danger to himself and sometimes is uncontrollable.

I have heard of a few kids who have been diagnosed with ADHD before they went to school. When he sees the psychologist i will ask.

metrovelvet

astra2000 wrote: »

Had my daughter been my oldest child I would have questioned if we as parents were doing something wrong and causing our childs learning problems, and comments like this would serve to make me feel even worse. Luckily I have 2 older children who are extremly clever and learn easily so I knew we had not caused the problem. I really feel for parents whos kids have extreme problems and come upon this type of attitude.

I took the statement you refer to as an observation that the experts are more likely to pathologise children from disadvantaged communities, as in to mark or demote them.

I know of two people, one a child, and one now an adult who were misdiagnosed with aspergers only to be changed to gifted. I also know of one older child whose parents have completely imprisoned her in her diagnosis, so imo they are not deserving of going uncriticised.

byhookorbycrook

Children with dyslexia no longer get resource hours, they may get learning support if they are scoring on or beneath the 10th percentile, so a "label" of dyslexia in primary may not "get" anything. It is,however, important that the child knows that it's not that they are "stupid" but have a difficulty in the area of reading.

A child with a specific speech and language difficulty may qualify for resource hours .

MrsD, I first came across "Weclome to Holland" on a learning support training course, it made me look at things from a parent's view in a whole different way. Thanks for posting.

I am sorry if i have offended anyone i don't mean to do that at all.

I think we might not be talking about the same thing at all i was talking about dyslexia that is all.

astra2000

Metrovelvet upon rereading marias post I would agree with your comment.
Of course there is room for error in any diagnoisis be it mental or physical, its up to me as a parent to be satisfied with the diagnoisis on my child and not to be blind to other possibilities. Tbh my daughter is mild and there is a strong possibility that by the time she starts secondary school that she will have learned to manage her dyslexia.
I suppose marialice the difference between somone been diagnoised early is that they will be taught coping mechanisms as oposed to having to learn them their selves like you had to.

sam34

crayolastereo wrote: »

I did a few weeks in a primary school last year and I was put helping the table of all the kids with learning disabilities/behavior problems and about half the table was seriously trying their best and didn't mean to start talking or get distracted and the other half were just brats.

interesting.

could you tell me a)what training and qualifications you have to make this assessment and b) what diagnostic criteria you used to confirm/rule out what you term "learning disabilities/behaviour problems" ?

Cat Melodeon

mariaalice wrote: »

how come your are more likely to get a diagnosis of some kind of behavior problem or learning difficulty if you are from a disadvantage background....

Aruba08 wrote: »

really??? can I ask what exactly you base this on?? Statistics?

I know children and adults with all types of disability and "label" from all different backgrounds.
How do you define a disadvantaged background?

Actually, mariaalice is right here. Children from 'disadvantaged' backgrounds are more likely to be diagnosed with some sort of learning difficulty, but not for the reasons you might think at first glance.

First off, 'disadvantage' can refer to a lower income family, an ethnic or religious minority, a single-parent family, a child from a foster family or anyone who qualifies for a medical card. This is not a judgment on my part, it is how educational and social researchers generally define disadvantage. It usually relates to educational outcomes rather than to any 'deficit' within a home. Plenty of children from such backgrounds do extremely well at school, but there is a pattern in general that children from such backgrounds do less well at school, even if they have the same abilities as their better off or within-the-norm counterparts.

The key reason is that children from such backgrounds are much more likely to be profiled as problematic and sent for assessment than their counterparts. For example, Travellers are 8 times more likely to be assessed, even though they are only equally as likely as their settled counterparts to have a learning difficulty when difficulties arising from nomadism (not as common as it once was) are controlled for. The same for children of single-parent families or on low incomes. It's called disproportionality and generally arises from racial or class profiling by teachers and other educationalists who generally belong to the middle classes and don't always recognise the difference between the symptoms of certain disorders and differences arising from cultural or social background. It's not just an Irish problem, it's common in all societies.

There is a huge body of work that explores how the schooling system in Ireland serves to advantage the privileged and to maintain the status quo. Apologies if I come across as a bit of a Marxist, I've worked in the area of educational disadvantage for a while now and it's one of my hobby horses. If anyone wants to read some accesible reports on inequalities in the Irish system (including statistics!), look up work by Anne Lodge (NUIM), Kathleen Lynch (UCD) or Emer Smyth of the ESRI.

crofty28

Hi all,
I'm so happy to see this thread, i wud have loved to have this resource when our journey began! My daughter is 8... we 1st had her referred at 3, although signs that her behaviour wasn't right were apparent since she was 2, this was difficult to diffrentiate from the terrible 2's! Anyway, we were reffered to the CAMHS team.. took around 10 months. Worked with a social worker & childcare worker, no assessment, for around a year, no help. UNtil primary school began & teacher noticed sumthin wasn't rite, not much happened. School was absolutely fantastic (depends A LOT on the teacher tho!!!). School paid 400euro for psychological assessment. My daughter was shown to be gifted, yet socially extremely withdrawn & with definite behavioural problems.She was finally diagnosed with ADHD age 7. We were so relieved to have a label!!! Not only did we as a family understand wat was going on, but teachers, other parents and every1 else did aswell! 2 medications later.... we were told it isn't ADHD, as neither meds worked. Aspergers was another consideration, yet she didn't tick all the boxes! Anyway, to get to the point, after many years of struggling, she now has an SNA part-time(which is extremely difficult to get these days!) and resource hours. Teacher is absolutely fantastic, has a careplan written & has made such a difference to my little lady.
So keep pushing for assessments, its the only way to get anywhere. & as All of us parents of children with difficulties know, a label is a great thing, as both ourselves & other people understand our childs difficulties, & they recieve the help & esources they need!!! Please PM me any1 who needs advice & support on this. I knew then & know now, wat a struggle this is!! Good luck all x:)

SugarHigh

Moaning about the over diagnosis of learning disabilities is just the latest pseudo intellectual fad. They are never able to show how they can instantly assess if a child has a learning disability better than a trained professional who took months to form their diagnosis.

It's just a sneering unfounded cynicism that boosts their own ego.*

Cat Melodeon

SugarHigh wrote: »

Moaning about the over diagnosis of learning disabilities is just the latest pseudo intellectual fad. They are never able to show how they can instantly assess if a child has a learning disability better than a trained professional who took months to form their diagnosis.

It's just a sneering unfounded cynicism that boosts their own ego.*

Sorry?

Could you expand on that?

liliq

SugarHigh wrote: »

.Moaning about the over diagnosis of learning disabilities is just the latest pseudo intellectual fad. They are never able to show how they can instantly assess if a child has a learning disability better than a trained professional who took months to form their diagnosis.

+1 for the request to expand on that? Am not sure if I am either misreading or misunderstanding what is being said in this statement, or if I'm reading it correctly.

Who claims that they can "instantly assess" if a child has a learning disability?

SugarHigh

liliq wrote: »

+1 for the request to expand on that? Am not sure if I am either misreading or misunderstanding what is being said in this statement, or if I'm reading it correctly.

Who claims that they can "instantly assess" if a child has a learning disability?

It was a response to this sort of though process.

I am not at all saying that there are no kids who legitimately have ADD or dyslexia, but I think they are over diagnosed. I did a few weeks in a primary school last year and I was put helping the table of all the kids with learning disabilities/behavior problems and about half the table was seriously trying their best and didn't mean to start talking or get distracted and the other half were just brats

How does she know they don't have a genuine learning disability?

People do the same thing with depression where they claim someone isn't really depressed even if they have been professionally diagnosed. They convince themselves they are somehow able to assess this based on almost nothing then rant about how depression is over diagnosed.

liliq

SugarHigh wrote: »

How does she know they don't have a genuine learning disability?

That claim isn't made-

I am not at all saying that there are no kids who legitimately have ADD or dyslexia, but I think they are over diagnosed.

Expressing the opinion that there is over- diagnosis is far from saying there is nobody who has a genuine learning disability.
It also far from making an instant assessment or diagnosis of the presence of one.

For the record- I don't personally know whether or not there is over- diagnosis. I find it hard to believe that there is when I can read on this thread how many parents struggle to help their child. I'm sure there are increased numbers of people being diagnosed with certain learning difficulties, but I think this is probably more due to advances in education and educational psychology over the last I- don't- know- how- many years (if not the infrastructure to fully implement the aids and support needed to put to use this knowledge) rather than people being diagnosed without much consideration.
One positive for the collective if not just the individual is that this increase in diagnosise in any kind of disability has also led to "inclusive learning" being on the increase, which is never a bad thing- not everyone learns the same way and everyone can benefit from learning being made as accessable as possible.

SugarHigh

I never said she claimed no one has a genuine learning disability. I was talking about when she claimed half the kids at the table didn't have a disability "they were just brats". She made a quick assessment which she isn't qualified to do.

This is a very emotive topic for people so i am going to say again this about my experience.

A good example of what i am talking about is in my daughters school when you go in to first year they do a variety of subjects and then in second year they pick subjects for junior cert, in first year they have to do two foreign langues they pick two form German, Spanish, French, BUT if you come in to first year with a comprehension age of less than twelve you only have to do one foreign language and you get extra help with English...now i am sure some people think that a wonderful idea but if that had happened to me it would have relay knocked my confidence being a teenage is tricky enough without having to feel you are behind everyone else.
The thing is i though school was as hard for everyone as it was for me because i didn't realize i had a problem until i was in my late teens.
My dyslexia is mild and it is with spelling that i have a problem and yet i could read at 4.


We have had a student with sever dyslexia on a placement with us in work and she was having a very real struggles no matter how much she was helped. The problem i felt was that she had got very poor career guidance... she had come in as a mature student to a third level course that involved huge amounts of written work and assignments.

cynder

Just back from seeing the speech therapist, he did not receive speech therapy because he was having a full blown 45 min temper tantrum.

She said that he will have his assessment done in march for school and will have a full asd assesment and in the meantime i am to fill out a Connors assessment (?) for adhd and he is also being referred to camhs under the assesment of need.

So looks like the ball is finally rolling, she said with people leaving and places not being filled that he fell into a black hole but is at the top of the list.

Nevyn

I have done the Connor's assesment 3 times so far.
It's a standard and the last two had parts for me the kiddie shrink and teacher.
It asked a series of questions and you answer them on a scale of 1 to 5.
It was hard to honestly fill it out the first time, I didn't want to make my kids out to be a bad kid, or admit how hard we were finding it to cope. There was a big difference between the first time results and the last time I did it, some things haven't changed, will never change but we have learned to manage and cope better.


http://www.mhs.com/product.aspx?gr=cli&prod=conners3&id=overview

Conners 3rd Edition™ (Conners 3™) is the result of four years of extensive product research and development. School psychologists, clinicians, psychiatrists, pediatricians, child protection agencies, and mental health workers can count on the Conners 3 to be a reliable and dependable tool capable of supporting them in the diagnostic and identification process.

Based on the solid findings and key elements of its predecessor, the Conners’ Rating Scales–Revised (CRS–R™), the Connors 3 offers a thorough assessment of ADHD. The Conners 3 now addresses comorbid disorders such as Oppositional Defiant Disorder and Conduct Disorder. Each parent, teacher, and self-report form is available in full-length and short versions.

Professionals will benefit from the following enhancements:

* A large representative normative sample based on the 2000 U.S. census data
* A refined focus on ADHD in school-age children with a new age range (6–18 for parent and teacher forms, and 8–18 for self-report forms)
* Strengthened Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders: Fourth Edition (DSM-IV-TR™) connections
* Clear applications in clinical settings that help identify children with behavioral difficulties
* Step-by-step guidance on how to use the tool in behavioral treatment and progress monitoring Spanish versions of the parent and self-report forms

How to Use the Assessment
The Conners 3 forms include multiple components that are available in paper-and-pencil or computerized format. The rating scales are available for parent (Conners 3–P), teacher (Conners 3–T) and self-report (Conners 3–SR). As well, the Connors 3 is available in short version. In addition, the Conners 3 also includes two auxiliary scales: the Conners 3 ADHD Index (Conners 3AI™) and the Conners 3 Global Index (Conners 3GI™). Assessment Reports, Progress Reports, and Comparative Reports are also available to help gather and record information, summarize results and facilitate discussion.

Lady Chatterton

grindelwald wrote: »

Just back from seeing the speech therapist, he did not receive speech therapy because he was having a full blown 45 min temper tantrum.

She said that he will have his assessment done in march for school and will have a full asd assesment and in the meantime i am to fill out a Connors assessment (?) for adhd and he is also being referred to camhs under the assesment of need.

So looks like the ball is finally rolling, she said with people leaving and places not being filled that he fell into a black hole but is at the top of the list.

Sent you a PM a few minutes ago before I spotted this post. I'm so delighted that things are finally happening for you and your little boy.

Chuchoter

Didn't realize this was going to turn into such a huge thing and I'm sorry if I upset a lot of people. I was in no way saying that these things don't exist, I know they exist and I realize all the crap people have to go through to get the things they need.

What I meant was that I don't know if they should be diagnosed all the time. Had I or my friend who went on to get some of the highest language results in the country been diagnosed with dyslexia at a young age, my confidence would have been crushed and I would have just resigned myself to saying 'Thats too hard for me' or 'They're all smarter than me'. Her dyslexia wasn't something that was a massive obstacle to her, it was minor enough that she was have been able to overcome it on her own.

Nevyn

There are people I know who are dyslexic who didn't mange to figure out ways to overcome it on thier own, they needed the help and lessons from a professional to do it.

I do know finding out I was dyslexic made a huge difference to me, I wasn't stupid, there was a reason my spellings were so crap. No one could understand why I was speed reading in primary school several years above my level and was well able to quote full poems but my spellings were appaling. I berated myself for years thinking I was thick and was called lazy and knocked by so many teachers it was crippling to my self esteem.
Getting tested in college was a gods send.

astra2000

crayolastereo wrote: »

Didn't realize this was going to turn into such a huge thing and I'm sorry if I upset a lot of people. I was in no way saying that these things don't exist, I know they exist and I realize all the crap people have to go through to get the things they need.

What I meant was that I don't know if they should be diagnosed all the time. Had I or my friend who went on to get some of the highest language results in the country been diagnosed with dyslexia at a young age, my confidence would have been crushed and I would have just resigned myself to saying 'Thats too hard for me' or 'They're all smarter than me'. Her dyslexia wasn't something that was a massive obstacle to her, it was minor enough that she was have been able to overcome it on her own.

Firstly I do realise you didnt mean to offend, and I am not trying to offend you but it does appear that you have no real knowledge in this area. I am not saying that I have a lot more than you, but having gone through the process of having my child assessed, I have seen first hand that the process that has to be gone through. Teachers and parents can speculate on what the particular childs problems are but it will carry no weight, the child has to be seen by a psycologist who will do the assesment and reach a conclusion on wheather or not the child has a problem.
You mentioned that you would have been crushed to have been diagnoided with dyslexia, but I have understood that you dont have dyslexia so that really doesnt make sense at all. You have not gone through the experience of having dyslexia so your not in a position to say wheather or not been diagnoised would be a crushing experience or not, does the friend you mention suffer from dyslexia.

Chuchoter

astra2000 wrote: »

Firstly I do realise you didnt mean to offend, and I am not trying to offend you but it does appear that you have no real knowledge in this area. I am not saying that I have a lot more than you, but having gone through the process of having my child assessed, I have seen first hand that the process that has to be gone through. Teachers and parents can speculate on what the particular childs problems are but it will carry no weight, the child has to be seen by a psycologist who will do the assesment and reach a conclusion on wheather or not the child has a problem.
You mentioned that you would have been crushed to have been diagnoided with dyslexia, but I have understood that you dont have dyslexia so that really doesnt make sense at all. You have not gone through the experience of having dyslexia so your not in a position to say wheather or not been diagnoised would be a crushing experience or not, does the friend you mention suffer from dyslexia.

She got diagnosed in 2nd year

sam34

crayolastereo wrote: »

What I meant was that I don't know if they should be diagnosed all the time. Had I or my friend who went on to get some of the highest language results in the country been diagnosed with dyslexia at a young age, my confidence would have been crushed and I would have just resigned myself to saying 'Thats too hard for me' or 'They're all smarter than me'. Her dyslexia wasn't something that was a massive obstacle to her, it was minor enough that she was have been able to overcome it on her own.

maybe i'm misunderstanding here (tbph, i hope i am) but are you actually suggesting that a diagnosis should not be made in case it interferes with someones confidence, and instead they should be left struggling and without access to the resources that such a diagnosis brings??


also, i'd still like to know how you decided that some of the kids at the tanle you mentioned were "just brats", what diagnostic criteria you used and what training and qualifications you have to make that call?

Chuchoter

I am saying that unless the dyslexia is really interfering in a kids work you see how it goes. The diagnoses would not have got her any extra help at primary school.

I know they were brats because they glared at me, pushed and shouted at other kids and refused to do anything that didn't suit exactly what they wanted to do. This was the complete opposite to the other 3 boys, who also had ADD, who were working so hard to stay on topic but just couldn't.

sam34

crayolastereo wrote: »

I am saying that unless the dyslexia is really interfering in a kids work you see how it goes. The diagnoses would not have got her any extra help at primary school.

I know they were brats because they glared at me, pushed and shouted at other kids and refused to do anything that didn't suit exactly what they wanted to do. This was the complete opposite to the other 3 boys, who also had ADD, who were working so hard to stay on topic but just couldn't.

in other words you are advocating avoiding/deferring making a diagnosis.

and you used no diagnostic criteria to make/rule out a diagnosis on those kids, just your own preconceived ideas based on brief interaction.

did it cross your mind for one nano-second that they may have had ADHD as well as more general behavioural problems? the two are not mutually exclusive.

and you are clearly not trained or qualified to diagnose any disorder.

tbh, with that attitude, it's quite frightening to me that you claom to want to be a doctor.

astra2000

crayolastereo wrote: »

I am saying that unless the dyslexia is really interfering in a kids work you see how it goes. The diagnoses would not have got her any extra help at primary school.

I know they were brats because they glared at me, pushed and shouted at other kids and refused to do anything that didn't suit exactly what they wanted to do. This was the complete opposite to the other 3 boys, who also had ADD, who were working so hard to stay on topic but just couldn't.

Below is some of the signs of add/adhd that I have copied from help guide .org. Does this sound like anyone youve met recently .ie those "brats"?

We all know kids who can’t sit still, who never seem to listen, who don’t follow instructions no matter how clearly you present them, or who blurt out inappropriate comments at inappropriate times. Sometimes these children are labeled as troublemakers, or criticized for being lazy and undisciplined. However, they may have ADD/ADHD.