Somthings afoot again!!

Grizzly 45

From the Irish Wild deer magazine

Survey Highlights the Reduction in Deer Numbers January 28th 2o11 A national survey undertaken by the Wild Deer Association of Ireland (WDAI) show that 88% of those surveyed say they have seen a reduction in deer numbers.
It is believed the illegal taking of deer (Deer Poaching), which is now at unprecedented levels nationally, is the main contributory factor to the reduction in numbers. This view is reflected in the survey with 83% of Deer Stalkers and 71% of Forest Managers surveyed say they have seen an increase in Deer Poaching. It is understood the increase in Deer Poaching is due to the current economic climate, high venison prices and a lack of resources in policing the Wildlife Acts, under which deer are a protected species. Deer are also under additional pressure following the recent severe weather conditions with many animals in poor condition.
While deer are now seen in some areas they have not been seen before it is not clear if this is due to an increase in deer numbers or due to the increased habitat from new forestry plantations, or the increase in poaching which cause deer to flee to new areas.
Since 2005 the number of licences issued to cull deer by the Minister for the Environment have increased from 2,582 to 4,118 which have resulted in an increased number of deer been culled - 18,750 in 2005/06 to 34,683 2009/10. Based on returns made by licensed hunters to the Department of the Environment, 40% of the deer culled nationally were culled in Co. Wicklow. While there is evidence of “hotspots” of over-population in some areas it is believed most are in Co. Wicklow.
Following an invitation from Minister of the Environment John Gormley TD to the WDAI, a delegation supported by the Vincent Coffey, IDS and Dr Ruth Carden, National Museum of Ireland met with senior officials from the Department of the Environment and National Parks and Wildlife. A number of initiatives were explored to address the current deer poaching epidemic and future management of our deer herds, including the introduction of a tagging system which would allow for better management and traceability of deer numbers. This system is used successfully in many countries, where individual tags are issued to hunters based on local deer cull plans, additional tags are also available where appropriate. Furthermore a hunter cannot be in the possession of a deer without a tag nor can deer be sold to a game dealer without a tag – while registered game dealers play an important role in deer management, unknowingly they also can be one of the main outlets for deer taken illegally.
After concerns were raised by the WDAI about the Red Deer herd in Co Kerry, NPWS have agreed to amendment the process for permits issued under section 42 of the Wildlife Acts, ensuring permits are only issued where genuine deer damage is caused and there is no abuse of permits for financial gain.
WDAI's successful campaign to raise awareness of Deer Poaching launched in 2008 – “Shine a Light on Poaching” with the support of Countryside Alliance Ireland, NPWS, Coillte, British Deer Society and Deer Alliance, is now enhanced by a new campaign “Report a Wildlife Crime” which allows for the reporting of suspected incidents of deer poaching, through their website www.wilddeerireland.com
The following initiatives are been explored with the Department of the Environment -
1.Implementation of a National Deer Strategy, formulated and overseen by all relevant stakeholders - providing accurate data on deer numbers locally (ecological survey of the population), appropriate local deer management plans.
2.Promotion of a dedicated Deer Poaching Helpline resourced by NPWS and supported by all stakeholders
3.Press Release and Media Campaign highlighting the illegal taking of deer (Deer Poaching) by NPWS and supported by all Stakeholders
4.Internal message of support from NPWS Management to NPWS staff, to address some of kthe internal negative opinions of deer.
5.Review the current process of issuing Section 42 Permits (allows the culling of deer outside the open season where genuine deer damage is been caused)– tighten the process of issuing permits to avoid abuse for financial gain – Section 42 permits for female deer with dependent young is withdrawn
6.Minimum night patrol targets by NPWS working in conjunction with stakeholders, Garda, Deer organisations etc
7.Promotion of Registered Game Dealers, along with increased regulation and presence by NPWS at Game Dealers premises.
8.Introduction of a Tagging System based on local deer management plan targets. Individual tags are issued to hunters with deer hunting licence, additional licences available where appropriate. Provides traceability of culled deer.
9.Minimum Competence Standard for all Deer Stalkers such as the Hunter Competence Assessment Programme (HCAP).
10.An agreed procedure for enacting the temporary suspension of the Open Season for Deer, following a prolonged period of severe weather conditions.
Calls for these initiatives to be implemented have been supported by a number of organisations such as Countryside Alliance Ireland.

Point9 is particullary worrisome.It looks like a NGB looking for an excuse to expand a power base!

It might be actually NICE for once if the people concerned IE deer hunters were actually ASKED for their opinions on this!!!
I'm really getting tired of these self appointed NGBs and other organisations going off deciding what THEY think is best for everyone and not bothering consulting with the rank and file.:mad:
Until the deer socities start removing convicted poachers and other bad eggs and start cleaning up their own acts ,I think they should be boycotted by regular deer hunters as they have no moral authorithy to tell us anything until they set a good example.

ejg

I'm not a friend of over regulating, but in the meantime I'd be in favour of the HCAP. It is just shocking how often I come across beginner licenced stalkers who do not even bother to read up on the deer seasons.
Female deer are shot in September and so on.
By the way, hope to see some of you lads at the carcass handling seminar on the 6th in Cahir.
edi

GixxerThou

Unfortunately I think any measures taken to stop poachers are now too late for the deer.. The numbers are so severely depleted in wicklow that I dont think we will see the healthy numbers we did a couple of years ago. That said I think something drastic should be done and fast! Personally I think the best way is through the game dealers.. All the answers are in they'r books in black and white..

CJhaughey

Thats a very poor article TBH.
I can see that this is another grab for power ala NASRPC stylee.
In fact quoting 88% of hunters surveyed is just bull. 88% of how many hunters 4 or 6 or 10?
The clipping in Press clippings says that in Wicklow
While there was no verifiable data recording the deer population in the county, the latest count, carried out by aerial survey of 20,122 hectares in the autumn of 2009, showed densities ranging from three deer to 29 per sq km.

It said Coillte carried out counts in 2008 in certain areas, which showed between 22 and 44 deer per sq km. Hunting returns also gave an indication of numbers.

The deer densities recorded would be regarded as exceptionally high, the report added, and while there was no absolute figure for sustainable deer densities, evidence from other European countries suggests a range of between three and 10 animals per sq km.

There is no substitute for a proper survey of animals, you can't present anecdotal evidence as a reason. They need to do proper research.

Some of what they are talking about is sensible but the problem is it all costs dosh, and I am quite certain that these proposals will eventually lead to a situation where you will have to pay for a license, tags, HCAP or perhaps more.

How can you do an ecological survey on deer numbers using hunters?
Ask them to stay out after dark with lamps to count deer?
That could be problematic if the NPWS turned up....
The proposal has some decent points but by and large it looks like a grab for power and the chance to generate a revenue stream.

4gun

for a start the deer licences should have a formal identity process attached with issue and they are cross referenced with licenced deer legal calibres...otherwise one could have multiple licences and tags

Tackleberrywho

I'm ready to vomit here.

HCAP my Arse, a fund raiser by another name

No offence to you Edi but, the seasons are on the back of the permit as they change every year (or can change)

HCAP although fine for fellas who want it to learn about shooting on a LEASE is just a revenue source for these guys.

If they think poaching is a problem clamp down on game dealers!
When I started stalking first I was told that if I ever sold deer that NPWS EDIT Coillte type error would come down like a ton of bricks on me, so I never have.

It all seems to be the wickla deer that gets the focus

(I wonder who the majority of stalkers are there?????)

And can some one tell me under FREEDOM OF INFORMATION how much NPWS took from IDS Stalkers this year on lettings.

If we can see all the other govt coffers why not these!

Then we might be able to correlate the data and see is there a link between those pushing reform, and those who pay the most on leases!

poulo6.5

ejg wrote: »

I'm not a friend of over regulating, but in the meantime I'd be in favour of the HCAP. It is just shocking how often I come across beginner licenced stalkers who do not even bother to read up on the deer seasons.
Female deer are shot in September and so on.
By the way, hope to see some of you lads at the carcass handling seminar on the 6th in Cahir.
edi

i will be there after all i would have no excuse its only 10min from my house.
i have never bin to one before so i am looking forward to it.
the email i got asked members to bring along as many carcases as they can for use in demonstrating butchering and so on. i hope i can get something to bring along as i am not seeing the deer like i used to .

edi will you have any of your stocks with you to show off.

patsat

Any more info on this thing in cahir or is it invite only?!

deerhunter1

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

I'm ready to vomit here.

HCAP my Arse, a fund raiser by another name

No offence to you Edi but, the seasons are on the back of the permit as they change every year (or can change)

HCAP although fine for fellas who want it to learn about shooting on a LEASE is just a revenue source for these guys.

If they think poaching is a problem clamp down on game dealers!
When I started stalking first I was told that if I ever sold deer that NPWS would come down like a ton of bricks on me, so I never have.

It all seems to be the wickla deer that gets the focus

(I wonder who the majority of stalkers are there?????)

And can some one tell me under FREEDOM OF INFORMATION how much NPWS took from IDS Stalkers this year on lettings.

If we can see all the other govt coffers why not these!

Then we might be able to correlate the data and see is there a link between those pushing reform, and those who pay the most on leases!

Well said HCAP my arse. :mad:

DR6.5

Tack the npws get no money from the lettings coillte do.

There should be some form of training before you get your deer licence and firearms certificate.

I did the HCAP, wasnt hard to pass, lads were swapping answers with each other during the test.

In relation to poaching there has been a good few lads caught in wicklow lamping this season.


dr6.5

Grizzly 45

@Tack. Write to them and request it under the FOIA.Although I have a funny feeling as a NGB/Quango they will ignore it or say they are not coverd by it.Funnily enough then ask are they coverd by the data protection act,because IF they do hold personal information on people they are obliged to be regd with the data protection comission.As is anyBODY [IE clubs,societies,organisations etc] that hold and store personal information.Ergo they will have to respond.
As for deer counts.Well that is where actually a thing called " work" comes into play.:D
You do the following,seeing that they are great fans of pinching things from the German hunting test,they missed this one. At the close of season,you go away and you start putting out a good load of fresh hay in an area unaccesible to local cattle and sheep along with a mineral lick.
Build a blind or hut and plonk yourself in there for many a very cold hour and watch and wait,and wait and wait some more.Eventually the deer will find this and start to come to this place for a free hand out during the cold closed season months.That will give you a good idea of the amount of deer in your area.Dont think you will get away with trail cams,how can you tell it is the same,or different deer that has been photod??

As the Continent closes Dec 31st,and we around Jan31st to Feb 28th,it is gog to be somwhat difficult as the weather is breaking and natural food is appearing.So it would have to be a mineral lick count over say a period of months.This is the work part of being a hunter.

Tagging ,is not the Be and end all either.There has been so much abuse and tricks in the US to get around this it is so old hat!!Simple way of doing this is hit the game dealers for un accounted carcasses,as well as the purchasers of the unaccounted carcasses.

As usual we see the thing of Ireland is Lenister and the rest of the place....who cares?Parts of the West is over run with deer,so I'd like to know where they got their drop in pouplation from.Seeing that last year they were reporting abnormally large pouplations in the ROI??

Also,must say I love this typical for now "other countries" quote coming from spokesmen or ministers when it suits them of course.But ever notice..They never say WHICH country???

Nah! Just another bunch of jobsworthies now suddenly having to justify their qunago/ NGB status..
This is one that should be axed and re built from the bottom.

ejg

patsat wrote: »

Any more info on this thing in cahir or is it invite only?!

Open to all, in the last years they also handed out venison burgers.
Well worth it I thought, also to meet up.
Held in the middle of Cahir, in the old mill.
I'll bring a stock or two along.


Back to HCAP and so on....
I think we all know that deer management in Ireland is generally not
going perfect.
just to mention a few issues.
-Poaching on the increase.
-Absolute beginners can just get a licence and off they go. Nobody
even asks if they know the difference between a male and female deer.
-over shooting of certain areas

I don't think we can afford to do nothing.

edi

Fallow01

I here lots of people complain that nothing is done about poaching, now that someone is,we shouldn't knock them. Well done to the Wild Deer Association of Ireland:)

Grizzly 45

Maybe "Fallow1![Welcome BTW] if they were more open and transparent and cleaned up their acts and lost this "dont do as I do do as I say"attitude they might be better recived!!

We are coming into a new age here in Ireland where hopefully openess and transparency will be taken seriously ,not just lip serviced.If that applies to Govt bodies it should apply to our governing bodies as well.

243Xpress

Whats needed is education and not testing which the Hcap is.Btw iv done the Hcap and it was a waste of my time and money.I did pass it but the only reason i did it was because i had a Coillte letting at the time and it was needed to keep the said letting.It was run by a boys club in my opinion.

Fallow01

Thanks for the welcome, been reading these posts for long enough......

I find them easy to access for answers and information about themselves and deer stalking via their Facebook page, website etc

I know they state they have approx 700 active members, so surely we should give those kind of numbers some credibility?

"We must all hang together or most assuredly we shall hang separately."

Tackleberrywho

Fallow01 wrote: »

Thanks for the welcome, been reading these posts for long enough......

I find them easy to access for answers and information about themselves and deer stalking via their Facebook page, website etc

I know they state they have approx 700 active members, so surely we should give those kind of numbers some credibility?

"

So will they explain what the rates for a lease are county by county.

700 active members? I'd query that.

How many stalkers in the state?
Or how many of their members are from outside teh state?:eek:

DR6.5

There was approx 4000 hunting licences issued last seson.

In relation to the leases there is no going rate its what people are prepared to pay for a lease, in wicklow the leases go for big money because of the demand and also the high numbers of animals on the ground, its not for the wild deer ireland to tell you what the going rate is.

dr6.5

patsat

Something definately has to be done about the poaching, got new permission thursday morning off a farmer we met feeding sheep.. He looked into our jeep, seen one doe and said jesus ye only got one the boys coming up from wexford do be taking loads of em, the lamp is the only job..:rolleyes:

Now thats nothing against anyone from wexford just quoting the farmer!

Also there is a huge increase in people around the area after buying rifles for deer in the last year so thats after affecting my area big time.:mad:

Would love to go to cahir on sunday but working till half 5...

dickson

hcap is just a money racket.as for deer numbers i have shooting from waterford to monaghan and from what i can see there is no reduction in the amount of them.had to laugh when they said they were in poor condition, i shot two last week and could not get over how much of a fat content they had.well fed deer - dont think the farmer was to happy.damn tasty!

deerhunter1

patsat wrote: »

Something definately has to be done about the poaching, got new permission thursday morning off a farmer we met feeding sheep.. He looked into our jeep, seen one doe and said jesus ye only got one the boys coming up from wexford do be taking loads of em, the lamp is the only job..:rolleyes:

Now thats nothing against anyone from wexford just quoting the farmer!

Also there is a huge increase in people around the area after buying rifles for deer in the last year so thats after affecting my area big time.:mad:

Would love to go to cahir on sunday but working till half 5...

Ya Im getting the exact same response from my permissions, I have only one or two shot and the landowners said slagging me "those lads that come up from wexford get loads of deer, the lamp is a great job, when i asked was he sure they were from wexford area he said ya, going by the reg numbers of the vehicles, just quoting what was said:eek:

patsat

deerhunter1 wrote: »

Ya Im getting the exact same response from my permissions, I have only one or two shot and the landowners said slagging me "those lads that come up from wexford get loads of deer, the lamp is a great job, when i asked was he sure they were from wexford area he said ya, going by the reg numbers of the vehicles, just quoting what was said:eek:

Well this farmer was reffering to syndicate that have leased all the forestry in the area, but they are shooting on the surrounding lands too. I'll get em yet!

Pm me the rough area of where you shoot just incase its the same fellas we are on about?

Tikka Jim

The problem at the moment is the agenda is being driven by anti deer (for want of a better phrase) organisations such as the IFA, Coillte (due to the damage they cause to forestry) and the NPWS (due to their view that deer are an invasive species). Resulting in articles such as this one..
http://www.independent.ie/farming/news-features/deer-explosion-now-grave-worry-2143803.html

I agree with the tagging sugestion i.e you have permission on 250 acres and it has a aprox population of 30..propose a cull of 6, you get issued with 6 tags.

The HCAP is flawed I agree but you need some sort of training not just from a safety point of view. If you are going to hunt and kill something you should take the time out to learn about it. I have heard lads on this forum refer to Common Fallow in summer pelage as 'ginger'!! lads are willing to spend 1000 euro + on a scope and then complain about spending 150 euro on a course to learn the BASICs of deer stalking and management.

I dont want the view of deer as vermin to spread, or let our sport be taken over by commercial interests, due to this I have gotten off the fence and joined the Irish Deer Society for the first time this year. (I'll keep ye posted)

deerhunter1

patsat wrote: »

Well this farmer was reffering to syndicate that have leased all the forestry in the area, but they are shooting on the surrounding lands too. I'll get em yet!

Pm me the rough area of where you shoot just incase its the same fellas we are on about?

Ya I believe its a syndicate or part of as well, I say we are shooting around same area.

Fallow01

dickson wrote: »

hcap is just a money racket.as for deer numbers i have shooting from waterford to monaghan and from what i can see there is no reduction in the amount of them.had to laugh when they said they were in poor condition, i shot two last week and could not get over how much of a fat content they had.well fed deer - dont think the farmer was to happy.damn tasty!

Good to hear you got a nice tasty animal!

Any animals we are taking off high ground are in terrible condition and I am hearing the same from others. Talking to guys in Wicklow they are coming across dead animals on the hills, which you get some of most years, but with three lots of severe weather in 13 months it's really bad this year.

Tackleberrywho

Fallow01 wrote: »

Good to hear you got a nice tasty animal!

Any animals we are taking off high ground are in terrible condition and I am hearing the same from others. Talking to guys in Wicklow they are coming across dead animals on the hills, which you get some of most years, but with three lots of severe weather in 13 months it's really bad this year.

That is Nature.
Survival of the fittest at it's most extreme .
They say 40,000 deer in Wickla, so 20,000 deer 50% would keep GAME DEALERs busy for a long time, so ask the Game Dealers??

There is only a market because of profiteering

stick shooter

It is time things got regulated in wicklow beyond a joke.

patsat

deerhunter1 wrote: »

Ya I believe its a syndicate or part of as well, I say we are shooting around same area.

Well in my area the lamping is gone beyond a joke...tis time to ring the ranger me thinks!

Grizzly 45

Tikka Jim wrote: »

The problem at the moment is the agenda is being driven by anti deer (for want of a better phrase) organisations such as the IFA, Coillte (due to the damage they cause to forestry) and the NPWS (due to their view that deer are an invasive species). Resulting in articles such as this one..
http://www.independent.ie/farming/news-features/deer-explosion-now-grave-worry-2143803.html

Wish they would make up their minds!!Either there is a huge amount or there isnt!!If they are worried about a vast amount of deer,then you need more people shooting them.But they seem to want to restrict the amount of people shooting.

I agree with the tagging sugestion i.e you have permission on 250 acres and it has a aprox population of 30..propose a cull of 6, you get issued with 6 tags.

And suppose then they decide there is a limit per annum on of two per hunter??For "conservation" purposes?

The HCAP is flawed I agree but you need some sort of training not just from a safety point of view. If you are going to hunt and kill something you should take the time out to learn about it. I have heard lads on this forum refer to Common Fallow in summer pelage as 'ginger'!! lads are willing to spend 1000 euro + on a scope and then complain about spending 150 euro on a course to learn the BASICs of deer stalking and management.

All very well,and then what happens?Ah ,but then the shotgun shooters need training in all aspects of game shooting,then the clay shooters and then the vermin shooters,then the air rifle shooters.And before we know it,shooting is made so technical ,expensive and otherwise off putting that it will be dead in a couple of generations.
Basics, if it was taught properly on the point of saftey it would be done on the hunters saftey course of the US NRA,which you can do within 24 hours.This is a hodge podege taken from the German hunting course,which is highly technical and with a absolutely stupid pass rate of 80%.Do you REALLY need to know what kind of trees are growing in your forest in Ireland???
There are stories and rumours of cheating,favourtism and general shennanigans in the organisation and the people involved,and it is unaccountable to no one.So sorry if I really think this is another elite clique that wants to keep it that way and fleece money from prospective applicants.
Also,I would like to know what qualifications apart from "experiance" these people have to teach and lecture on this?Selling shoes for 20 years ,doesnt make you a podontorist!
As well as that why do they refuse to accept a direct swop of EU hunters qualifications for the HCAP?? I'd consider an EU liscense 1000% more competant than a HCAP!

I dont want the view of deer as vermin to spread, or let our sport be taken over by commercial interests, due to this I have gotten off the fence and joined the Irish Deer Society for the first time this year. (I'll keep ye posted)

Please do..We are all intrested to know what other Sh**te will be foisted on us witout our being asked!:rolleyes:

SpringerF

Tikka Jim wrote: »

The problem at the moment is the agenda is being driven by anti deer (for want of a better phrase) organisations such as the IFA, Coillte (due to the damage they cause to forestry) and the NPWS (due to their view that deer are an invasive species). Resulting in articles such as this one..
http://www.independent.ie/farming/news-features/deer-explosion-now-grave-worry-2143803.html

I agree with the tagging sugestion i.e you have permission on 250 acres and it has a aprox population of 30..propose a cull of 6, you get issued with 6 tags.

The HCAP is flawed I agree but you need some sort of training not just from a safety point of view. If you are going to hunt and kill something you should take the time out to learn about it. I have heard lads on this forum refer to Common Fallow in summer pelage as 'ginger'!! lads are willing to spend 1000 euro + on a scope and then complain about spending 150 euro on a course to learn the BASICs of deer stalking and management.

I dont want the view of deer as vermin to spread, or let our sport be taken over by commercial interests, due to this I have gotten off the fence and joined the Irish Deer Society for the first time this year. (I'll keep ye posted)

Well said

4gun

how would they estimate the number of deer in an area, deer are constantly on the move, caoilte are supposed to have a tagging system already in place for their lands ?(was a few years ago when I read that)
be stricter with game dealers and you should curb a lot of poaching. get revenue involved for those who supply excessive amounts of carcasses..if they are profiting then it should be taxed

Grizzly 45

Not only that..Anyone caught with a rifle search light,and deer carcass and no section 42 ,immediately loses their rifle liscense,rifle ,equipment and vechicle.As I have said thousand times before.We dont have poachers here.If they were,no one would know they were ever there in the first place.We have idiots out to make a fast buck,who dont give two hoots about anyone knowing or not their illegal activities.
Now answer me this somone...How in the name of God Almighty will it solve anything for anyone by getting the law abiding to go and sit another test and pay out more money and be hassled further,when these muppetts wont pay it [1] the blindest bit of notice or [2] get their pals or themselves to sit the test and continue as before..????

We see it on our roads FFS!!Drive nice and safley,get your liscense,off you go and drive as you please for evermore.The problem is there is NO enforcement of our laws on this aspect of shooting.
We have enough law to stop this,but the usual solution is to force the law abiding to jump thru further hoops while somone or organisation blatantly profiteers from it,or expects the GP and shooters to do their dirty work for them as well[Ala shine a light on poaching]How many arrests and convictions sofar in two years????
Its simple really,find out who is buying theses carcasses en masse and close them down.Make game dealers have as much hygenic requirements as normal butchers and proper sanitary training in food stuffs,if not close them down.Break the chain and you will see soon enough a reduction in this kind of "poaching".Without bothering others with money making scams.

cavan shooter

A very good friend of mine who has the permissions from farmers in our club area has always said that being able to sell to a game dealer is the problem. He gives his deer back to the farmer, to friends to family but never sells it. Clamp down on this selling of deer to game dealers.

It looks also like their is the start of a wee power struggle amongst the deer associations of Ireland etc. At least its not as bad as last year when everyone out lamping foxes was a Poacher:(

Tikka Jim

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Wish they would make up their minds!!Either there is a huge amount or there isnt!!If they are worried about a vast amount of deer,then you need more people shooting them.But they seem to want to restrict the amount of people shooting.



And suppose then they decide there is a limit per annum on of two per hunter??For "conservation" purposes?




All very well,and then what happens?Ah ,but then the shotgun shooters need training in all aspects of game shooting,then the clay shooters and then the vermin shooters,then the air rifle shooters.And before we know it,shooting is made so technical ,expensive and otherwise off putting that it will be dead in a couple of generations.
Basics, if it was taught properly on the point of saftey it would be done on the hunters saftey course of the US NRA,which you can do within 24 hours.This is a hodge podege taken from the German hunting course,which is highly technical and with a absolutely stupid pass rate of 80%.Do you REALLY need to know what kind of trees are growing in your forest in Ireland???
There are stories and rumours of cheating,favourtism and general shennanigans in the organisation and the people involved,and it is unaccountable to no one.So sorry if I really think this is another elite clique that wants to keep it that way and fleece money from prospective applicants.
Also,I would like to know what qualifications apart from "experiance" these people have to teach and lecture on this?Selling shoes for 20 years ,doesnt make you a podontorist!
As well as that why do they refuse to accept a direct swop of EU hunters qualifications for the HCAP?? I'd consider an EU liscense 1000% more competant than a HCAP!



Please do..We are all intrested to know what other Sh**te will be foisted on us witout our being asked!:rolleyes:

Not sure who 'they' are. The only people who want to the number of deer shot set at a sustainable level are deer hunters. The IFA, ITGA, Coillte, NPWS are all delighted with the huge amount of deer being shot.

The NPWS wont limit it to 2 per hunter, the NPWS want as many deer as possible shot. Every game dealer sends returns to the NPWS i.e How many deer they took in, which hunter supplied how many deer etc. They know who the poachers are, they could put a stop to it in the morning IF they WANTED to.

Every country has a training course, FYI the HCAP is based on the British Deer society level 1 course, its almost identical. If you sold shoes for twenty years you PROBABLY could teach someone to SELL shoes though:D.

I joined the IDS not to stop people from hunting or to be part of an elite but I want to have my sport promoted and protected. The IFA has 85,000 members, the view currently being promoted is that deer are vermin causing crop damage and costing money, therefore needing to be exterminated.
John Gormley often boasted that he had issued more deer licences than anyone else, the view of a lot of the Greens and sandal brigade is that deer are an invasive species,therefore needing to be exterminated !!

We need to promote a more positive attitude towards deer and their management.

Fallow01

Tikka Jim well said!

My understanding is the HCAP do not provide training but just the exams, I see on their FB page the Wild Deer Assoc do workshops foc for their members taking the exam.

http://http://www.facebook.com/pages/Wild-Deer-Association-of-Ireland/125121684177148?v=wall

I hear some managers in the NPWS think deer should be removed from the protected species list and classed as vermin - they must believe the anti deer agenda. It's getting out of hand when you hear this kind of stuff!!

Tackleberrywho

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

Tikka Jim wrote: »

The only deer that should be protected is Red Deer. All the other are invasive non-native species (including Red deer/sika hybrids) and shouldn't be here.

I would gladly get rid of all Sika and Fallow if I new reds would return.

Although Paulo6.5 reckons Fallow taste teh nicest of all deer.

I have only ever eaten Fallow so I can't comment.

Why is the season for sika males NOT all year round in kerry Wickla etc?

from a conservation perspective if nothing else of our native reds.

landkeeper

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

Tikka Jim wrote: »

The only deer that should be protected is Red Deer. All the other are invasive non-native species (including Red deer/sika hybrids) and shouldn't be here.

prehaps we should bring back the snakes then as they SHOULD be here :rolleyes:

It wasn't me!

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Why is the season for sika males all year round in kerry Wickla etc?

Um, it's not. Definitely not.

Tackleberrywho

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Um, it's not. Definitely not.

Christ, I meant why not! a season for males all year of Sika in Wickla and Kerry and then slowly re-introduce reds to the area

It wasn't me!

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Christ, I meant why not! a season for males all year of Sika in Wickla and Kerry and then slowly re-introduce reds to the area

Because culling males does shag all to the population except create mobility across a larger area, which leads to not less, but more breeding, as well as the spread of local disease epidemics during mating seasons when animals are at their most vulnerable.

Kat1170

DR6.5 wrote: »

There should be some form of training before you get your deer licence and firearms certificate.

I did the HCAP, wasnt hard to pass, lads were swapping answers with each other during the test.

dr6.5

Sounds like a waste of time and money to me.

Fallow01

When is something non native? Reds are here since the Ice Age (In Kerry) Fallow are here since the Normans, Sika since 1860.....

Invasive Ireland say wild boar are a non native invasive species even though they were here before - should we just get rid of everything :rolleyes:

underthetumb

243Xpress wrote: »

Whats needed is education and not testing which the Hcap is.Btw iv done the Hcap and it was a waste of my time and money.I did pass it but the only reason i did it was because i had a Coillte letting at the time and it was needed to keep the said letting.It was run by a boys club in my opinion.

correct.
however if you wanted to get into deer hunting, most avenues lead in this direction if you nknow no one involved in the sport

Tackleberrywho

Fallow01 wrote: »

When is something non native? Reds are here since the Ice Age (In Kerry) Fallow are here since the Normans, Sika since 1860.....

Invasive Ireland say wild boar are a non native invasive species even though they were here before - should we just get rid of everything :rolleyes:

Just anything after Dermot MacMurrough and all them boyo's

I'd gladly get rid of sika as I think there squealing disturbs the peace

I'd also like to see the planting of broad-leaf and not conifer across the country, But hey; That's just me;)

We have a handful of red in the midlands, I'd love to see more

CJhaughey

Lets face it, Humans have irreversibly changed the face of Ireland, and trying to exterminate a species because they arrived after the last ice age is arrogant nonsense.
Lots of species have been imported since that time including cattle and sheep are we suggesting that we exterminate them as well because they aren't native?
If the various cliques really want to make a difference then let them produce a proper scientific report on the current state of deer stocks nationally.
If the proper scientific protocols are not followed then what we have is a bunch of people making assumptions and guesses based on non existent evidence. Which is no way to manage anything at all, least of all an important animal such as deer.

Grizzly 45

Tikka Jim wrote: »

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Not sure who 'they' are. The only people who want to the number of deer shot set at a sustainable level are deer hunters. The IFA, ITGA, Coillte, NPWS are all delighted with the huge amount of deer being shot.

All above parties mentioned in both newspaper reports from the press clippings sections 24/01/2011 2/12/2010 and from this article in the WDI newsletter.


Survey Highlights the Reduction in Deer Numbers January 28th 2o11 A national survey undertaken by the Wild Deer Association of Ireland (WDAI) show that 88% of those surveyed say they have seen a reduction in deer numbers.
It is believed the illegal taking of deer (Deer Poaching), which is now at unprecedented levels nationally, is the main contributory factor to the reduction in numbers. This view is reflected in the survey with 83% of Deer Stalkers and 71% of Forest Managers surveyed say they have seen an increase in Deer Poaching. It is understood the increase in Deer Poaching is due to the current economic climate, high venison prices and a lack of resources in policing the Wildlife Acts, under which deer are a protected species. Deer are also under additional pressure following the recent severe weather conditions with many animals in poor condition.
While deer are now seen in some areas they have not been seen before it is not clear if this is due to an increase in deer numbers or due to the increased habitat from new forestry plantations, or the increase in poaching which cause deer to flee to new areas.
Since 2005 the number of licences issued to cull deer by the Minister for the Environment have increased from 2,582 to 4,118 which have resulted in an increased number of deer been culled - 18,750 in 2005/06 to 34,683 2009/10. Based on returns made by licensed hunters to the Department of the Environment, 40% of the deer culled nationally were culled in Co. Wicklow. While there is evidence of “hotspots” of over-population in some areas it is believed most are in Co. Wicklow.
Following an invitation from Minister of the Environment John Gormley TD to the WDAI, a delegation supported by the Vincent Coffey, IDS and Dr Ruth Carden, National Museum of Ireland met with senior officials from the Department of the Environment and National Parks and Wildlife. A number of initiatives were explored to address the current deer poaching epidemic and future management of our deer herds, including the introduction of a tagging system which would allow for better management and traceability of deer numbers. This system is used successfully in many countries, where individual tags are issued to hunters based on local deer cull plans, additional tags are also available where appropriate. Furthermore a hunter cannot be in the possession of a deer without a tag nor can deer be sold to a game dealer without a tag – while registered game dealers play an important role in deer management, unknowingly they also can be one of the main outlets for deer taken illegally.
After concerns were raised by the WDAI about the Red Deer herd in Co Kerry, NPWS have agreed to amendment the process for permits issued under section 42 of the Wildlife Acts, ensuring permits are only issued where genuine deer damage is caused and there is no abuse of permits for financial gain.
WDAI's successful campaign to raise awareness of Deer Poaching launched in 2008 – “Shine a Light on Poaching” with the support of Countryside Alliance Ireland, NPWS, Coillte, British Deer Society and Deer Alliance, is now enhanced by a new campaign “Report a Wildlife Crime” which allows for the reporting of suspected incidents of deer poaching, through their website www.wilddeerireland.com
The following initiatives are been explored with the Department of the Environment -
1.Implementation of a National Deer Strategy, formulated and overseen by all relevant stakeholders - providing accurate data on deer numbers locally (ecological survey of the population), appropriate local deer management plans.
2.Promotion of a dedicated Deer Poaching Helpline resourced by NPWS and supported by all stakeholders
3.Press Release and Media Campaign highlighting the illegal taking of deer (Deer Poaching) by NPWS and supported by all Stakeholders
4.Internal message of support from NPWS Management to NPWS staff, to address some of kthe internal negative opinions of deer.
5.Review the current process of issuing Section 42 Permits (allows the culling of deer outside the open season where genuine deer damage is been caused)– tighten the process of issuing permits to avoid abuse for financial gain – Section 42 permits for female deer with dependent young is withdrawn
6.Minimum night patrol targets by NPWS working in conjunction with stakeholders, Garda, Deer organisations etc
7.Promotion of Registered Game Dealers, along with increased regulation and presence by NPWS at Game Dealers premises.
8.Introduction of a Tagging System based on local deer management plan targets. Individual tags are issued to hunters with deer hunting licence, additional licences available where appropriate. Provides traceability of culled deer.
9.Minimum Competence Standard for all Deer Stalkers such as the Hunter Competence Assessment Programme (HCAP).
10.An agreed procedure for enacting the temporary suspension of the Open Season for Deer, following a prolonged period of severe weather conditions.
Calls for these initiatives to be implemented have been supported by a number of organisations such as Countryside Alliance Ireland.

Thats who "They " are...

The NPWS wont limit it to 2 per hunter, the NPWS want as many deer as possible shot. Every game dealer sends returns to the NPWS i.e How many deer they took in, which hunter supplied how many deer etc. They know who the poachers are, they could put a stop to it in the morning IF they WANTED to.

Maybe they Know who they are ,but do they have HARD evidence that would stand up in a court of law???Two different things.NPWS mightnt limit it to two per hunter now ,but whats to say in the future?? Game dealers and returns...What is exactly the fine for knowingly sending in false returns or or the returns on your deer liscense??? We have had some messer sending in a return for a muntjac shot in Clare last year...was this investigated,was it followed up???Love to hear if it was.

Every country has a training course, FYI the HCAP is based on the British Deer society level 1 course, its almost identical. If you sold shoes for twenty years you PROBABLY could teach someone to SELL shoes though:D.

I beg to differ..After having attempted the German hunting liscense.I spotted last time I saw the HCAP manual AT LEAST 20 questions that are off the German hunting test..Either the Brits cogged it of the Germans or HCAP cogged it off the Germans or British.
Sure you could teach somone to sell shoes,but it doesnt help if the person whose feet hurts is causes by fallen arches!:) Also the US doesnt have one,and seeing that we love to compare ourselves.Why should we as well??This course wont deter anyone from being dishonest either.

I joined the IDS not to stop people from hunting or to be part of an elite but I want to have my sport promoted and protected. The IFA has 85,000 members, the view currently being promoted is that deer are vermin causing crop damage and costing money, therefore needing to be exterminated.

Then you had better question the leaders of this organisations about various unpleasent allegations and people involved in their organisations??

John Gormley often boasted that he had issued more deer licences than anyone else, the view of a lot of the Greens and sandal brigade is that deer are an invasive species,therefore needing to be exterminated !!

Hmmmmmm!! From one of the biggest anti hunting pro Gormless organisations website.ICABS
ACTION ALERT

Dear Minister Gormley

[!st paragraph snipped.Relative to coursing & hare netting]
May I remind you of the Green Party's principle of being against the exploitation of animals. Allowing coursing to continue, facilitating the shooting of thousands of deer and suggesting that some tail docking is acceptable, is clearly contrary to this principle.
I urge you to stand true to the Green Party's animal welfare principles and work to bring to an end the abuse and killing of animals for 'sport'.
Thank you. Yours sincerely,

We need to promote a more positive attitude towards deer and their management.

Yes ,but the current crop of organisations and people who run it are not the best ambassadors.There is too much controversy and skeletons in their respective cupboards.
If this is going to be managed properly with exams etc.It has to come under state control again,with accountability and fairness.Not some for "profit and pals" organisation

Tikka Jim

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

Tikka Jim wrote: »

The only deer that should be protected is Red Deer. All the other are invasive non-native species (including Red deer/sika hybrids) and shouldn't be here.

With the exception of Kerry most pure red deer in Ireland are now Western European Red deer which either escaped or were released from Deer Farms.

Tikka Jim

FYI it was in The Irish Times today.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0202/1224288768520.html

Grizzly 45 Looks like you have a problem with all the Deer groups, have you ever been a member of any? Why dont you join one and point out where they are going wrong?

tiny-nioclas

ejg wrote: »

Open to all, in the last years they also handed out venison burgers.
Well worth it I thought, also to meet up.
Held in the middle of Cahir, in the old mill.
I'll bring a stock or two along.



edi

Our 11th annual Carcass Handling Seminar will take place at 2.00pm sharp in Cahir, Co. Tipperary on Sunday 6th, February 2011.

Directions to the Seminar are as follows; take the Limerick/ Cork exit from Cahir town centre; on passing Cahir Castle the first building (old mill) on the left over the bridge. We would ask that members bring along as many fresh deer carcasses as possible, including pluck in a separate container for examination.

This year’s event will include – Field Evisceration & Butchery – preparation of Cape for taxidermist – demonstration by Dept Vet on Carcass examination & disease identification – demonstration by butcher on preparation of carcass for consumption – Venison BBQ .

The Skill and Knowledge of Carcass Handling is something that we all require new or old to Deer-stalking, so the committee would like the support of all members for this event. Light refreshments & barbecued venison will be provided free of charge.

Thinking about heading upto this myself its only a hour or so up the road, anyone else going?

kakashka

Huge ammount of Deer in WW,i personally have not seen much decline,a little harder to find maby,.. it's common practice for Dealers to spread numbers through Licence's of ppl who return low numbers AND more disturbing is the practice of hiding numbers completely..THESE ppl should be targeted first...

poulo6.5

tiny-nioclas wrote: »

Thinking about heading upto this myself its only a hour or so up the road, anyone else going?

ya i'll be there