Why you should vote Independent.

DeVore

Why all of the focus in the country is currently on the parties I dont know.
We have had FG and Lab before and they were just as deceitful and coniviving as the thieves in FF. A pox on all their houses.

The fact of the matter is that if you want your views represented you simply can't be taken in by the political parties greatest lie: That their candidates will be allowed the freedom to represent you (or their own!) views.

That is a lie.

They wont be allowed or free to speak their minds, they will be required to follow the party whip. For those that arent clear about that... if the party whip is applied, all party members are required to vote the way that HQ tells them to. Refusal to do so will result in election funding being retracted (meaning unemployment).

So, if you want to be able to "talk to the organ grinder" rather than the monkey.... vote for an independent.

DeV.

galwayrush

While i agree with you, i don't think independents will be needed for numbers to form the next Government, therefore not really holding any real power.

Dr. Baltar

A wasted vote.

Whether you like it or not, the next government will not be made up of independents and even if it were, independents get elected purely on parish pump politics. (Healy Rae and Lowry are as bad if not worse than FF)

mikemac

They might have a lot of power or zero power, depends if their vote is needed or not.

A lot of permutations have to fall into place before you'll ever see another area get their own "Gregory deal". He did what independents try to do now and was the original at looking after his own area. Didn't get called a gombeen though??

Could be a decade or more before we see that happen again if at all

liammur

DeVore wrote: »

Why all of the focus in the country is currently on the parties I dont know.
We have had FG and Lab before and they were just as deceitful and coniviving as the thieves in FF. A pox on all their houses.

The fact of the matter is that if you want your views represented you simply can't be taken in by the political parties greatest lie: That their candidates will be allowed the freedom to represent you (or their own!) views.

That is a lie.

They wont be allowed or free to speak their minds, they will be required to follow the party whip. For those that arent clear about that... if the party whip is applied, all party members are required to vote the way that HQ tells them to. Refusal to do so will result in election funding being retracted (meaning unemployment).

So, if you want to be able to "talk to the organ grinder" rather than the monkey.... vote for an independent.

DeV.

Independents....I don't see what Lowry and Jackie healyrae are bringing to the table?

mikemac

liammur wrote: »

Independents....I don't see what Lowry and Jackie healyrae are bringing to the table?

And were you not posting in another thread your own former minister neglected Limerick and wasn't doing enough work.

Independents at least aim to do this.

DeVore

No one will share power with FF imho. Lab&FG wont stick for long and I doubt they can make it work. So, whoever gets in is going to probably need support from a number of independents.

People are sick of "professional" politicians and I think you might be very surprised how many of the new independents get a vote this time round...

Consider this: This election has been the most polarising for years. How many people who vote for Party A are going to give their second preferences to Party B... Many of them are going to go to independents imho. Not to mention that many people, like me, are so sick of the institutionalised politicians that I will ONLY be voting for independents in order to shake things up.

DeV.

ejmaztec

I wonder how many of the "new" Independents will jump back on the FF party band-wagon within a few months of being elected?

bmaxi

While I agree with your sentiments on the major parties, whether or not this is the right time to "shake things up" is debatable. One thing the country does not need now is multiple vested interests trying to top one another. The examples of Lowry with his friends in corporate Ireland and Healy-Rea with his monopoly of State awarded contracts, do not inspire confidence.
Try as I might I cannot come up with a better alternative to a FG/Labour coalition, it has worked, to varying degrees of success, before and anything has to be better than what we have had.
A lot will depend on how things shape up in the first six months but really, like every "democracy" that I can think of, it's Hobson's choice. Where are we going to find a saviour? they are very thin on the ground. Even Nelson Mandela, the great white:rolleyes: hope of South Africa left behind a legacy of corrupt government.

Eliot Rosewater

Voting for a "whipped" party member is the lesser evil, in my opinion. Independents generally offer nothing to national governance. When Micheal Lowry and Jackie Healy-Rae were in government it was all about themselves, and what they could do to best themselves. Lowry wanted lax casino laws, and Healy-Rae goodies for his constituency. And they threatened the national government for these things, so they got them.

Healy-Rae got his Tralee Bypass. That is to say, the national interest of the country was put on the sideline so Healy-Rae could win a view votes for his political machinery.

I don't know how you could construe such gombeenism as a good role-model.

Sir Oxman

The possibility of a range of independent candidates like Shane Ross and Peter Mathews and Paul Somerville running, hopefully getting elected and together with other like-minded indos forming a technical grouping would make me very happy.

Most independent candidates elected up to now have been awful parish-pumpers of the lowest order.

DeVore

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Voting for a "whipped" party member is the lesser evil, in my opinion. Independents generally offer nothing to national governance. When Micheal Lowry and Jackie Healy-Rae were in government it was all about themselves, and what they could do to best themselves. Lowry wanted lax casino laws, and Healy-Rae goodies for his constituency. And they threatened the national government for these things, so they got them.

Healy-Rae got his Tralee Bypass. That is to say, the national interest of the country was put on the sideline so Healy-Rae could win a view votes for his political machinery.

I don't know how you could construe such gombeenism as a good role-model.

Because Healy Rae and Lowry dont represent the wave of new optimism and honesty that independents aree bringing to this election. To say you shouldnt vote for independents now because of them is like not voting for Obama because of Clinton's sexcapes.

I despise the way those two gombeens leeched off the government but I believe there is a new wave of perhaps naive but optimistic (and above all as-yet-uncorrupted) people who will enter the dail this year.

I predict that there will be a loose union of independents formed to promote common objectives. Thats about as much of a "party" as I feel like voting for at the moment...

DeV.

Biggins

I will lay my cards on the table, I intend to run if possible (I will know for certain in the next 36 hours) as an independent.
I WILL NOT be running on local issues and intend to make that quite clear.
I will (fingers crossed) be running on national issues.

Why independent you may ask?

...Because I will not be voting for FF for sure (obvious reasons), Labour while maybe having an effective head, has not got an ideal candidate running in my region and they are perhaps to ruled by union heads too.
FG I feel to be honest, is just as enshrined with the same cronyism, is too cosy (as FF) to business and banking interests, etc than I would like.
Sinn Fein is not an ideology I agree with and as for the Greens, well the least said about them the better!
(The above is the short version)

So where does that leave me? Nowhere.
I can see no viable alternative that would be willing to speak for me at national level, no alternative that is willing to stand up for FULL accountability and clarity amid other issues.

So rather than just give up, I've said "to hell with this" and I'm making an independent stand.
Now I don't expect to get far - I will probably lose my deposit (no small amount) considering whom I'm up against in Louth - but I'll be damned if I'm not going to try and make noise and remind other heads that "hey, the actual people deserve something new, more honest and by god - an alternative to what has gone before!"

Independents have to start somewhere. Get enough of them that are thinking alike and you never know... down the road we could have indeed a new political party that just might bring about drastic change that we all need so very, very much.

Brussels Sprout

I think it all depend on the type of independent that you vote for.

There seems to be two types of independent politician in Ireland. The first is the type who used to be in one of the big parties but for one reason or other has parted ways. This type includes Mattie McGrath, Joe Behan, Michael Lowry and Jackie Healy-Rae.

The second type is the person who is running as an independent because their ideology doesn't match that of any of the traditional parties. Shane Ross, Paul Somerville and various people running with reform in mind are examples of this type.

Type 1 are parish pump politicians who will sell their vote for the good of their constituency.
Type 2 might not be but it's difficult to imagine a scenario where they'll have the chance to enact any of the reforms that they speak about.

bhovaspack

Biggins wrote: »

Independents have to start somewhere. Get enough of them that are thinking alike and you never know... down the road we could have indeed a new political party that just might bring about drastic change that we all need so very, very much.

This is my thinking on the matter too. Even a relatively small number of like-minded, credible independents could provide the basis for one or more new parties. Such is the public yearning for a new politics, this could happen a lot sooner than people might think. Good luck with your bid.

Eliot Rosewater

DeVore wrote: »

Because Healy Rae and Lowry dont represent the wave of new optimism and honesty that independents aree bringing to this election. To say you shouldnt vote for independents now because of them is like not voting for Obama because of Clinton's sexcapes.

Well that's obviously a fair point, it's just in my experience independents are almost exclusively concerned about local issues and getting something for the locals in the Dail. To put it the other way, I have never seen an independent run on national issues - with the exception of the new Shane Ross grouping. Hence why I'm so sceptical!

Biggins wrote: »

I will lay my cards on the table, I intend to run if possible (I will know for certain in the next 36 hours) as an independent.
I WILL NOT be running on local issues and intend to make that quite clear.
I will (fingers crossed) be running on national issues.

That's very admirable Biggins. I don't know if I'd agree with your national policies but, regardless, I wish you the very best! I'm not in Louth so I won't be in a position to reward your initiative.

deanh

gambiaman wrote: »

The possibility of a range of independent candidates like Shane Ross and Peter Mathews and Paul Somerville running, hopefully getting elected and together with other like-minded indos forming a technical grouping would make me very happy.

Most independent candidates elected up to now have been awful parish-pumpers of the lowest order.

Peter Mathews is running for Fine Gael in Dublin South? It is possible for strong candidates to come through the party system. A 'technical grouping' of independents might work in some 'pub talk' fantasy but in the real world, would not offer any alternative. Read today's Sunday Tribune on the withdrawal of the Democracy Now platform (Mc Williams; Dunphy; O' Toole etc). They blamed the short time-frame but the reality was they couldn't agree on a common platform.If they want to change the world, they should join/ or form a party with policies that the electorate could assess.

Biggins

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

...I don't know if I'd agree with your national policies but, regardless, I wish you the very best! I'm not in Louth so I won't be in a position to reward your initiative.

Just send Jelly Babies then! I like them.

Lockstep

To be honest, I don't see much point in this idea that a government of Independants would be better than FG/Lab.

Even if we abolished parties tomorrow, you'd just get proto-parties forming around like minded individuals (the SHane Ross grouping being a good example) or a US style system where a TD will hold the government to ransom unless they get pork barrel spending for their own district.
I'm picturing a government of 85 independants, running in 85 different directions and with 85 bypasses and hospitals being built across the country.

There can be good Independents and if an Independent seems a good choice, I've no problem with voting for them (I'll probably give an Independant my No.2), best of luck Biggins, I wish you well.

But on the whole, I'll stick with party politics.

evercloserunion

DeVore wrote: »

Because Healy Rae and Lowry dont represent the wave of new optimism and honesty that independents aree bringing to this election. To say you shouldnt vote for independents now because of them is like not voting for Obama because of Clinton's sexcapes.

I despise the way those two gombeens leeched off the government but I believe there is a new wave of perhaps naive but optimistic (and above all as-yet-uncorrupted) people who will enter the dail this year.

I predict that there will be a loose union of independents formed to promote common objectives. Thats about as much of a "party" as I feel like voting for at the moment...

DeV.

Right. So you are too skeptical to entertain the thought that FG and Labour might bring positive change because you think that the last time they were in power they were as bad as FF. First of all, they were not nearly as bad as FF, and second of all, they haven't been in power in many years.

But you are fully willing to believe that independents will be overcome by this "new wave" which magically causes them to be the ultimate altruists, despite clear evidence of independents recently acting as bad as any FFer and screwing over the country for their own political gain.

It just doesn't add up. If anything, there is even less cause for optimism with independents than with the opposition parties.

later12

No offence to anyone, but what a pile of horse sh1t. The most likely make up of the next Government will either be FG majority, FG-Labour or even a FG minority government propped up by FF if all else fails.

How can anyone vote for so incoherent and diverse and often so parochially focused a group as the independents at such a crucial point in Irish history? Mattie McGrath? Michael Lowry? Jackie Healey Motorway? Is that what you want? Not only do independents lack a common platform or by their nature, political allegience, but they must also by their nature detract from political stability.

Who even seriously thinks that Independents are going to hold sway in the next Dáil? Fine Gael and Labour could very likely have over 100 seats between them. Trying to vote tactically for an insecure administration that think may somehow arise if all the other scenarios fail is probably the best example of a wasted vote that I can think of, and a wasted vote at a time like this is nothing short of gross irresponsibility.

Biggins

evercloserunion wrote: »

...despite clear evidence of independents recently acting as bad as any FFer and screwing over the country for their own political gain.

It just doesn't add up. If anything, there is even less cause for optimism with independents than with the opposition parties.

I say this with respect, that's a bit of 'tarring all with the same brush'.
Just because what has gone on in the past, does not mean those coming later will behave the same way, either to equal degree or smaller.
I can understand your scepticism but sometimes you have to take a leap of faith - and if those new fresh independents do let you down, you know what to do/vote next time around.

Sir Oxman

deanh wrote: »

Peter Mathews is running for Fine Gael in Dublin South? It is possible for strong candidates to come through the party system. A 'technical grouping' of independents might work in some 'pub talk' fantasy but in the real world, would not offer any alternative. Read today's Sunday Tribune on the withdrawal of the Democracy Now platform (Mc Williams; Dunphy; O' Toole etc). They blamed the short time-frame but the reality was they couldn't agree on a common platform.If they want to change the world, they should join/ or form a party with policies that the electorate could assess.

Oops, Mathews is running for FG alright.

I would like to see a group of independents of whatever hue (not old ex-FF/ex-FG members parading as Independents) elected and if their numbers are seven or more they can form a technical grouping which in turn will give each member more Dail speaking time.

A good, honest, intelligent opposition is just as important as who will form the next government.

evercloserunion

Biggins wrote: »

I say this with respect, that's a bit of 'tarring all with the same brush'.
Just because what has gone on in the past, does not mean those coming later will behave the same way, either to equal degree or smaller.
I can understand your scepticism but sometimes you have to take a leap of faith - and if those new fresh independents do let you down, you know what to do/vote next time around.

To be fair, I don't actually think all independents are corrupt or self-serving. Undoubtedly there are many out there who would make great representatives at a national level, yourself included. I was just pointing out the inconsistency in DeVore's reasoning. He tars all political parties with the same brush but is able to differentiate between good and bad independents. He is overwhelmingly cynical when it comes to political parties but overly optimistic, perhaps even naive, when it comes to the ability of independents to do good in the next government.

Biggins

Sometimes independents do play a very vital role.
They are not tied to the 'whips' of parties, can say what others are constrained from saying and as they are not tied to larger organisation, their words and actions are (as we have seen in Rea and co) open to closer scrutiny than maybe those intermingled within larger numbers of parties.

Biggins

evercloserunion wrote: »

To be fair, I don't actually think all independents are corrupt or self-serving. Undoubtedly there are many out there who would make great representatives at a national level, yourself included. I was just pointing out the inconsistency in DeVore's reasoning. He tars all political parties with the same brush but is able to differentiate between good and bad independents. He is overwhelmingly cynical when it comes to political parties but overly optimistic, perhaps even naive, when it comes to the ability of independents to do good in the next government.

Ok, fair comment.

Sadly such has been the bad actions of many - from all parties and even previous independents - that any cynicism that is out there, can be justified to a good deal of extent.

DeVore

There were very few true independents previously. What there were were malcontents and misfits who spun off, or ejected from, their old parties who they continue to orbit like needy ex's.

There is a new breed of independent candidate in this election, can you honestly say that there is a New FG or Labour party??

DeV.

Mr.Micro

Independents like Lousy and Gombeen are nothing but political whores and do not have the national interest in mind when they cut their sordid little deals and to watch these disgusting types peddle their votes for a price, at the cost of other regions in Ireland made me feel nauseous. If this is indicative of the type of Independent then no thanks.

later12

DeVore wrote: »

What there were were malcontents and misfits who spun off, or ejected from, their old parties who they continue to orbit like needy ex's.

Why would that change? Mattie McGrath, the FF malcontent is running, so is Michael Lowry, the FG misfit, so is Finian McGrath. Eamon Walshe is running on a disabilities ticket. Eric Doyle is another malcontent ex Fianna Fáiler. I'm not sure the needy exes and the misfits are gone away.

I appreciate that Shane Ross is running, but I think he and perhaps Stephen Donnelly are the only independents that could probably prove worthwhile if they are elected, but the latter probably doesn't have enough of a local active profile. Even at that it's questionable how better off they are in the Dáil than in the Seanad where we already have some useful independents.

I appreciate thast people are fed up, but I think that any hope invested in the impotence of the independent candidate is going to be disappointed.

lugha

The new wave of independents (Ross, Somerville etc.), if they get elected, will be a different animal to the traditional independent. The old beast could be sated by putting a few morsels the way of their constituency. The new ones will be “ideas” men and might prove a much more difficult creature to manage as part of a government. And I’m not sure if instability is something we want in our next government, how ever noble the cause of the instability is. The new independents contribution will be to make informed, non-partisan contributions which will be influential because of their higher profile.

The whip system was derided in the OP, and certainly it can be argued that it is contrary to the principle of democracy. But it is worth bearing in mind that true democracy (i.e. let the people speak on every matter) would utterly fail us now (and probably any other time). Do you think any harsh budget (which will be necessary in the coming years) would have a prayer of being approved if it required the approval of the people in a referendum?

Similarly, do you think any difficult decision could ever be taken if government party TDs could (on a point of principle of course!) choose to vote against the government?

It is all good and well to point up the failings of the whip system. But the first requirement of any political structure we adopt is that it must work. It must serve the people. If you want to say, “begone with whips” then you must propose a workable alternative. And a system where governments last perhaps 3 months on average, is not that.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

jank

DeVore wrote: »

Why all of the focus in the country is currently on the parties I dont know.
We have had FG and Lab before and they were just as deceitful and coniviving as the thieves in FF. A pox on all their houses.

The fact of the matter is that if you want your views represented you simply can't be taken in by the political parties greatest lie: That their candidates will be allowed the freedom to represent you (or their own!) views.

That is a lie.

They wont be allowed or free to speak their minds, they will be required to follow the party whip. For those that arent clear about that... if the party whip is applied, all party members are required to vote the way that HQ tells them to. Refusal to do so will result in election funding being retracted (meaning unemployment).

So, if you want to be able to "talk to the organ grinder" rather than the monkey.... vote for an independent.

DeV.

You still need to form a government though dont you?
Anyway, isnt this a bit rich from someone who didnt vote in the last GE?

selfobsessed

This country is a democracy. We will vote for who WE want rather than be dicated to by the OP.

scientific1982

Yeah thats what this country needs, more parochialism. Its served us so well in the past.

aftermn

parochialism is only bad when looked at from the national perspective. It is not so bad when viewed from the local perspective.

To what degree does national politics matter to you? Are local issues of less importance?

No doubt there are times when national issues should take precedence, ditto vice versa.

As a citizen that choice is mine. You must respect the result, if like minded citizens vote for an independent with local demands and he/she is elected.

hatrickpatrick

A Dail with absolutely no parties whatsoever, where every politician votes entirely based on his or her actual position (hopefully based in turn on what their constituents actually want them to vote) would be much more democratic.

Tragedy

Except gradually groups of like minded TD's would come together to further a shared common agenda. And then you're back to a political party

evercloserunion

DeVore wrote: »

There were very few true independents previously. What there were were malcontents and misfits who spun off, or ejected from, their old parties who they continue to orbit like needy ex's.

There is a new breed of independent candidate in this election, can you honestly say that there is a New FG or Labour party??

DeV.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

As said above, plenty of independents this time around are connected in some way with political parties. Plenty more are connected with their constituents but not with the national interest.

Frankly I don't like the idea of the composition of the next government hinging on one or two independents. That's a lot of power concentrated in a couple of people, and it's bound to corrupt.

Political parties can be as bad in many ways but at least there is some hope that people can vote for parties based on policies, and that individual TDs will actually follow these policies due to the whip system. I don't think the same applies in respect of independent candidates.

scientific1982

aftermn wrote: »

To what degree does national politics matter to you? Are local issues of less importance?

National politics has a profound affect on everyone, yourself included. Yes local issues are of less importance as the national controls the local.

randylonghorn

selfobsessed wrote: »

This country is a democracy. We will vote for who WE want rather than be dicated to by the OP.

The OP was dictating to you? Or presenting a position?

Will you tell every canvasser calling to your door to stop dictating to you because they urge you to vote for X?




What saddens me is that despite the wake-up calls of the last few years, despite all we have learned (or should have learned) about the failures of FF in particular but, let's be honest, of the whole political apparatus in this country, we are being presented with no new options at this election, no new party seeking to sweep clean the Aegean stables and seek reform.

To me, this seems indicative of a deep-rooted democratic deficit in this country.

While I understand the points being made about stability of government, I can't help wondering if poor government deserves to be stable, or if the country has been well served by the stability which FF have enjoyed in government over the last decade.

Stability tends to increase complacency among our politicians; perhaps a little fear would better keep them to their tasks.

The gombeen ex-party men like Healy-Rae and Lowry do not deserve to be classed as Independents, they're just outliers for one party or the other who have either fallen foul of the whip, or reckon their bread will be better buttered outside the party, or both.

But if an independent stood in my constituency who I felt was honest and genuine and above all as sickened as I am by the catalogue of corruption and political whoremongery which we have become all too accustomed to, I would be strongly tempted to vote for her / him.

At least, as gambiaman pointed out, we might see a good, honest, intelligent opposition ... that in itself would make a pleasant change!

evercloserunion

randylonghorn wrote: »

The OP was dictating to you? Or presenting a position?

Will you tell every canvasser calling to your door to stop dictating to you because they urge you to vote for X?




What saddens me is that despite the wake-up calls of the last few years, despite all we have learned (or should have learned) about the failures of FF in particular but, let's be honest, of the whole political apparatus in this country, we are being presented with no new options at this election, no new party seeking to sweep clean the Aegean stables and seek reform.

To me, this seems indicative of a deep-rooted democratic deficit in this country.

While I understand the points being made about stability of government, I can't help wondering if poor government deserves to be stable, or if the country has been well served by the stability which FF have enjoyed in government over the last decade.

Stability tends to increase complacency among our politicians; perhaps a little fear would better keep them to their tasks.

The gombeen ex-party men like Healy-Rae and Lowry do not deserve to be classed as Independents, they're just outliers for one party or the other who have either fallen foul of the whip, or reckon their bread will be better buttered outside the party, or both.

But if an independent stood in my constituency who I felt was honest and genuine and above all as sickened as I am by the catalogue of corruption and political whoremongery which we have become all too accustomed to, I would be strongly tempted to vote for her / him.

At least, as gambiaman pointed out, we might see a good, honest, intelligent opposition ... that in itself would make a pleasant change!

"Whoremongery", what does that even mean FFS :rolleyes:

Clichéd posts like this one are a dime a dozen these days, it seems their only point is to try break the world record for most moral outrage condensed into one post.

bmaxi

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

A Dail with absolutely no parties whatsoever, where every politician votes entirely based on his or her actual position (hopefully based in turn on what their constituents actually want them to vote) would be much more democratic.

Democratic maybe but also chaotic. The whip system may be discredited but really only because of the way it has been used to "discipline" party members, i.e. take away the whip to make him/her look good in the eyes of his/her constituency and then restore it when things quieten down.
You have to have some sort of command structure to create strategy, members going offside in a fit of pique does not lead to stability. While I have great respect for the likes of Shane Ross and would vote for him were he in my constituency, I still think he'd be better in a party.

DeVore

selfobsessed wrote: »

This country is a democracy. We will vote for who WE want rather than be dicated to by the OP.

Wooaahhh..... hahaha.... yes because a piece entitled "Why you should vote independent" , which lays out my thoughts on why I think the party system is broken and I think Independents may offer a viable alternative this election.... is somehow enslaving you?


You should probably avoid the rest of this site too.... its FULL of dictator OP's.


:rolleyes:

DeV.

Bloody Nipples

At the same time the party system allows a political party to designate TDs as specialists on particular topics (Finance, Health etc.) to help inform the party line on certain issues. This allows a party to make an informed decision on its policy on a given subject, and use its Chief Whip to ensure all the party's TDs vote in line with that.

I find it hard to believe that a government made up entirely of Independents would have the time or capability to come to terms with the nuances of each information heavy topic to ensure that each TD has made an informed decision on a subject rather than a gut reaction (though there is the point to be argued that the current government haven't made too many informed decisions so feel free to take me out the back and shoot me...:pac:).

Spudmonkey

Biggins wrote: »

They are not tied to the 'whips' of parties

No they aren't, their 'whips' are the taoiseach and minister for finance but the result is still the same.

johnnyskeleton

DeVore wrote: »

So, if you want to be able to "talk to the organ grinder" rather than the monkey.... vote for an independent.

DeV.

DeV for Taoiseach, with the following new ministeries to replace the old ones:

Arts,
Biz,
Edu(cation),
Games,
Hosted,
Music,
Rec,
Region,
Science,
Soc,
Sports,
Tech.

jimmycrackcorm

Voting for inedpendents is akin to Somalis voting for their local warlord i.e. voting for self-interests instead of the interests of societies.

Sure we might as well have no parties and everyone just vote for their own local warlord.

randylonghorn

evercloserunion wrote: »

"Whoremongery", what does that even mean FFS :rolleyes:

Clichéd posts like this one are a dime a dozen these days, it seems their only point is to try break the world record for most moral outrage condensed into one post.

You don't think the ordinary people of this country have a right to be outraged?

What puzzles me, tbh, is that there is so little real outrage, and that people still seem prepared to potter along and vote for the same lookalike muppets.

bmaxi

randylonghorn wrote: »

You don't think the ordinary people of this country have a right to be outraged?

What puzzles me, tbh, is that there is so little real outrage, and that people still seem prepared to potter along and vote for the same lookalike muppets.

Just following in the footsteps of the good old U.S.A who not only accepted a President they didn't vote for but re-elected him four years later.:eek:
If the mandarins are telling us recession can't be avoided, bankers can't be prosecuted and the working classes should be so glad to have a job it's downright ungrateful to moan about having to mortgage your soul to pay your taxes, it must be true. I mean, our Taoiseach wouldn't lie, would he?

Einhard

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

A Dail with absolutely no parties whatsoever, where every politician votes entirely based on his or her actual position (hopefully based in turn on what their constituents actually want them to vote) would be much more democratic.

And entirely dysfunctional to boot.

the groutch

DeVore wrote: »

Why all of the focus in the country is currently on the parties I dont know.
We have had FG and Lab before and they were just as deceitful and coniviving as the thieves in FF. A pox on all their houses.

The fact of the matter is that if you want your views represented you simply can't be taken in by the political parties greatest lie: That their candidates will be allowed the freedom to represent you (or their own!) views.

That is a lie.

They wont be allowed or free to speak their minds, they will be required to follow the party whip. For those that arent clear about that... if the party whip is applied, all party members are required to vote the way that HQ tells them to. Refusal to do so will result in election funding being retracted (meaning unemployment).

So, if you want to be able to "talk to the organ grinder" rather than the monkey.... vote for an independent.

DeV.

are you not a Green Party supporter? or am I mixing you up with Scofflaw?