Annoying restrictions on ebooks for non-US/UK Kindle owners

ixoy

I've just got a Kindle and am quite frustrated with the region locking on titles. For starters, we can't buy from the .co.uk store (despite being able to buy the equivalent paperback versions without issue). Then when I go to the .com store, I'm still prevented from buying numerous titles because they're US-only.

I looked at my wish list and can only get about half in e-Book format because they're region-locked to US or UK.

Has anyone else found this experience very frustrating and off putting? I'll have to go to the paperback version despite being wiling to pay a premium for an eBook.

flower tattoo

this is really annoying and seems to be a fairly recent change.

i have the kindle app on my phone and when i got it in september i was able to buy from amazon.co.uk.

But i noticed after christmas that it recognised the phone was not uk and I had to change to U.S. website

the first time i used it i had to open 2 browsers - find the book i wanted on the uk best sellers list and then type it into the .com site as the best seller lists are obviously different. last time though it wouldn't let me order the books i wanted as they were UK only.

I tried a few, some work, some dont and then i got fed up and havent bothered since. I suppose because i only have the app rather than the kindle itself it doesnt put me out too much to have to get real books again

Manach

I agree with Ixoy this is very annoying. There are non-DRM booksellers, Baen for SciFi and OReilly for Computer books - but they don't have the same range as amazon.

ixoy

I tried some other sites and they indeed have weak ranges.

Is there any way of making the Kindle think I'm the UK so I can get to the UK store? Even more infuriating is I have a large .co.uk voucher! Why I can't get these titles in electronic format when I can in paperback is beyond puzzling.

OwaynOTT

If I recall someone came up with a roundabout way on here last October or that. I got my kindle last august or sept and had the same problem.
Books not being available and not for my region or not in that format.
I changed my billing address and region to America and downloaded two books but got an email from amazon and freaked out.
Sold my kindle for the full price in December because of this but kind of miss it.
Still have a massive wish list

Vim Fuego

Go to the manage my kindle page on amazon.com, there's an option called "have you changed address recently?" or somethig like that. Click on that, set up a fake address, making sure to match state with postcode (90210, California for example) and that's it. You can still use your Irish credit card. Search the forums and you'll find better explanations but that's the gist of it.

ixoy

So I could change to an address in the UK and still use it? What if I need standard P&P as well though - how does that work? Can I just jump between addresses the whole time... I'd have thought that'd raise a red flag.

Vim Fuego

If you need to order a physical item, you just need to tick the box with your normal address when you order. Amazon don't seem to care so far, it's more revenue for them while the dinosaur-like publishing companies are still gettingpeed to speed with the new world (stupid agency pricing, geographic restrictions etc).

ixoy

Vim Fuego wrote: »

If you need to order a physical item, you just need to tick the box with your normal address when you order. Amazon don't seem to care so far, it's more revenue for them while the dinosaur-like publishing companies are still gettingpeed to speed with the new world (stupid agency pricing, geographic restrictions etc).

Cheers - I'm going to try it for .co.uk site instead as that's where I have the voucher. Looks like I'm moving to England...

I'm curious as to the reasoning for geographic standards since it doesn't apply to buying the "dead tree" version. It also means more money to the publisher.

Also - will Irish legislation change for e-Books with regards to VAT? To protect our cultural heritage, there's 0% VAT on books but this doesn't apply to eBooks as they're classified as electronic media. Government could surely apply a blanket policy on VAT for books, no matter what the media.

Manach

When I logged into Amazon.com from work (and had a US proxy) there was a difference of about 150,000 between books available to international subscribers and US subscribers in Nonfiction. Based on some limited sampling, cheaper on the US site too.

Thargor

I protest this injustice in a non-violent way by pirating everything

SionnachOghma

Well, changing delivery address seems to have worked for me (using Kindle app on my iPad if that makes a difference). I left my street address, town and county (under City), put in California under 'State' with 90210 as the postcode, and America as the country. Finally was able to download a book I've been trying to get.

It's not REALLY fraud, is it? My billing address hasn't been changed, and I'm still paying via my credit card.

ixoy

SionnachOghma wrote: »

Well, changing delivery address seems to have worked for me (using Kindle app on my iPad if that makes a difference). I left my street address, town and county (under City), put in California under 'State' with 90210 as the postcode, and America as the country. Finally was able to download a book I've been trying to get.

It's not REALLY fraud, is it? My billing address hasn't been changed, and I'm still paying via my credit card.

Probably find it is under the T&C.
Did you get a question sked about this from Amazon? Seems they asked for ID off of some people. I'd prefer to use the .co.uk site for my vouchers - wondering if they're more likely to question a sudden address change.

Can you just add a new delivery address then instead of changing a billing address? I thought you needed to alter your registered/main address (ie. where you live) to get to switch sites.

SionnachOghma

ixoy wrote: »

Did you get a question sked about this from Amazon? Seems they asked for ID off of some people...

Can you just add a new delivery address then instead of changing a billing address? I thought you needed to alter your registered/main address (ie. where you live) to get to switch sites.

I didn't need to change the billing address, just the delivery addy, and Amazon never said anything about it. Also, the address I changed seems to apply specifically to my Kindle account. It was in the 'Manage your Kindle' section - I just clicked on 'Country' and typed in an address.

I didn't need to fake the whole address, either. I moved my real postcode (Co. Dublin) up to the 'City' field, slapped in the U.S State and Postcode, and changed my country. If I'd needed to change the billing address I wouldn't have done it. Might have been a bridge too far...

flower tattoo

If you change the details to American ones will it let you order books that currently say uk only?? I presume not, so how do you get these books?

SionnachOghma

flower tattoo wrote: »

If you change the details to American ones will it let you order books that currently say uk only?? I presume not, so how do you get these books?

I honestly don't know. If it comes to that I'll try changing it back, but for all I know I might suddenly lose access to the US-only books I've already downloaded.

Vim Fuego

You get a UK book by creating a fake UK address for yourself. Bt28dx is the postcode for Belfast for instance.

The people with moral qualms about this are better than most. To be fair, you could be pirating the same book very, very easily from a number of channels. Instead you're actually paying and contributing to the author. I doubt he or she cares where you are based as long as you paid and can enjoy his/her work.

The publishing industry should learn the lessons of the music industry. A book file is usually under 1mb, they should be making them as easy to buy as possible to avoid the chance of book piracy being a mainstream problem. It is already rife on certain channels.

Some authors would also do well to learn this lesson. You can't buy JK Rowling's work as ebooks because she doesn't like the idea of them. Well, I've read on another forum that very high quality pirated epub version are "out there". She's making sod all from that so get with the program.

Sorry, bit of a tangent there, but seriously, it's frustrating to see publishers acting like dinosaurs in this day and age when they should be making it easy for the consumer and raking it in!

SionnachOghma

Vim Fuego wrote: »

To be fair, you could be pirating the same book very, very easily from a number of channels. Instead you're actually paying and contributing to the author. I doubt he or she cares where you are based as long as you paid and can enjoy his/her work...

Some authors would also do well to learn this lesson. You can't buy JK Rowling's work as ebooks because she doesn't like the idea of them. Well, I've read on another forum that very high quality pirated epub version are "out there". She's making sod all from that so get with the program.

Well, for the book I was trying to buy, I actually contacted the authors, whose response to me was that they had no idea they were even ON Kindle, as their publisher never mentioned this to them. They also commented on territorial restrictions, saying that was a very bizarre thing to do. I took this as a sort of license to get the ebook in my roundabout way.

Totally agree with the bit about HP - I had copies of the Potter books as PDF's years ago, before e-readers even existed, but the computer I had them on died screaming in agony after years of abuse, and I never managed to find them again. Personally I wouldn't mind one bit paying for the books again if they came out on digital. J.K's missing out.

Manach

Just to mention as well the Amazon's option of downloading the ebook to one's PC (if having put in a US address) and then transferring it to your Kindle.

Footoo

i have 3 addresses currently stored on my account - my home address in Ireland, and friends address in London and a fake address in the US.

The only time I need to use the fake US account is when a title is only available to US customers.

The way i see it both Amazon and the publisher / author are getting money that they wouldn't have previously got had i not engaged in my little piece of "white" fraud.

jfml999

I was told in a Barnes & Noble Dallas bookstore that the only way to buy e-books for their Nook is with a US IP address. Does it sound familiar?

Toby Take a Bow

Vim Fuego wrote: »

Sorry, bit of a tangent there, but seriously, it's frustrating to see publishers acting like dinosaurs in this day and age when they should be making it easy for the consumer and raking it in!

Why? I doubt Rowling needs the money, so it's up to her.

The publishing industry should learn the lessons of the music industry. A book file is usually under 1mb, they should be making them as easy to buy as possible to avoid the chance of book piracy being a mainstream problem. It is already rife on certain channels.

People will still download them illegally. The internet went through a period of being great to buy on, but as it's developed people are increasingly unwilling to pay for anything online, as the perception is that if it's electronic or digital it should be free. Same thing will happen to books.

SionnachOghma

Toby Take a Bow wrote: »

People will still download them illegally. The internet went through a period of being great to buy on, but as it's developed people are increasingly unwilling to pay for anything online, as the perception is that if it's electronic or digital it should be free. Same thing will happen to books.

The only books I download illegally are the ones I'm left no other option about. e.g., I had most of a series of books on my Sony Reader, which then suffered an accident. When I went back to my Waterstones account to download them again, I was told I wasn't allowed due to territorial restrictions. For some stupid, never-explained reason, the publisher had pulled the e-books from the UK/Irish sites, which meant that even those of us who had already paid for them suddenly weren't allowed to have them anymore. I went on Torrent and got the whole series, and damned if I'll be paying for any of them again.

I'm happy to pay for what I buy, but I expect to be treated fairly by retailers. If they cheat me, I'll happilly cheat them right back.

As for territorial restrictions, they're just dense, especially when the paper versions of the same books are readily available. If an author doesn't want e-books of her work available, fair enough, but don't go putting them out there and cutting certain people off. I followed the advice I got here, and I now spoof an American address when ordering. I imagine most others would simply torrent them.

The current system practically invites piracy. Retailers would do a lot better for themselves if they handled the market more sensibly.

Toby Take a Bow

SionnachOghma wrote: »

The only books I download illegally are the ones I'm left no other option about. e.g., I had most of a series of books on my Sony Reader, which then suffered an accident.

I've heard about this happening, I wasn't sure whether it was true or not. I think there was a story about Amazon deleting 1984 from Kindles even though it was bought legally.

Publishers, retailers definitely have to get their act together to make this work, at least for the people who are willing to actually pay for the books they read. For the moment, I think I'll stick with the so-called 'Dead Wood' product, as I've never had a book go missing yet.

tHE vAGGABOND

Im surprised the publishers are so stupid in this regard, as it effects many countries and regions. Its a sign of them being very "old school" and very slow to adapt [like many music companies too I guess?]. Next we will have them talking about their falling revenue and how some people wont buy books for eReaders.

I have a kindle and love it, and have bought many books on it [too many tbh!]. But every so often I go looking for a book and cant find it.

I have no problem that some books are not available, as more are coming on stream all the time. I dont expect every publisher to convert everything to it immediately. They are right to be cautious IMHO - you dont want to spend millions getting all your stuff ready and up on "betamax"

So a great example of what annoys me, I wanted to read Salem Lot, by Stephen King a few weeks ago. Its for sale on Amazon.Com and Amazon.co.uk for Kindle, but Dot Com would not sell it to me, as it was not licensed for sale in my country or region. [I tried going via a VPN appear to them to be coming from america, which we use in work, but that did not work - no dice]. I complained to Amazon.com [to see what would happen, if nothing else], and was told [in what was clearly a canned/automated response] that among other things its possible the book was not released in my region yet. I sent back a very short, calm and reasonable reply, that it was released in 1975, and is for sale in every other amazon store for Kindle I checked - but got nothing back.

So I'm now reading a popular book series on my kindle [One from the 70's and 80's] - which I also tried to buy, which is also for sale for people from Amazon.Com and Amazon.Co.UK, but they would not sell me in the same stupid way - so I have pirated it.

Toby Take a Bow

If I had an electronic reading device, I'd be annoyed with the legal rights/restrictions too, tHE vAGABOND, but it's probably more due to being overly cautious. Some publishers (I'm talking mainly about the smaller/Irish publishers here) make a lot of their money on selling worldwide rights to overseas markets, whether by translation or in (say) America/Australia, where they couldn't afford to either market in these areas or translate. This was fine when the only option was paperback, but when the electronic format really came onto the scene, it changed everything. A book published by a small Irish publisher, now electronically available, couldn't legally be sold to someone in America, even if the American publisher hadn't got around to releasing an electronic version.

I'd be surprised if this was the case for Stephen King, though. I presume the publisher (Simon & Schuster?) has worldwide rights. They need to get that sorted.

I remember when the Stieg Larsson books were HUGE in the physical market, but weren't available electronically. A joke.

ixoy

For what it's worth, I think I know the why of it now:

Books have tight legal contracts with publishers. This dictates in what territories the book can be published. So a Stephen King book would be published by different companies (perhaps subsidiaries of the main one) if it was in the US than if it was in the UK.

Now you can sell books across territories as it's a legal grey area - thus you can buy a published book from amazon.com but not .co.uk.

Here's the kicker though: Amazon see themselves as publishers for eBooks and not just distributors (as they are with dead tree books). Therefore they're bound to the original publication legalities relating to regions. As a result, although they can distribute books across regions they can't publish them to the Kindle and we end up where we are.

The solution is of course contracts that have clauses in them dictating eBook publishing but that appears to be a bit of a legal limbo right now. It also means that older books might never go into eBook format where there is no clarity over how publication rights work over different territories. All this legalities leaves us, the reader, very frustrated.

It's not a satisfying answer but it appears - from my understanding - to be why we are where we are now.

paultf

SionnachOghma wrote: »

The only books I download illegally are the ones I'm left no other option about. e.g., I had most of a series of books on my Sony Reader, which then suffered an accident. When I went back to my Waterstones account to download them again, I was told I wasn't allowed due to territorial restrictions. For some stupid, never-explained reason, the publisher had pulled the e-books from the UK/Irish sites, which meant that even those of us who had already paid for them suddenly weren't allowed to have them anymore. I went on Torrent and got the whole series, and damned if I'll be paying for any of them again.

What is this Torrent thing and how does it work? What website did you use?

EDIT: scrap that question - just did a google. I think its illegal

SionnachOghma

paultf wrote: »

What is this Torrent thing and how does it work? What website did you use?

EDIT: scrap that question - just did a google. I think its illegal

It is. As I said, I'd already paid for these books and then they were pulled, which basically meant I was robbed, so I figured **** 'em, got them on torrent. Otherwise all my ebooks are bought legally, and always will be as long as publishers deal fairly.

I pay for something, I expect to get what I paid for. If they suddenly decide, "Sorry, you can't have it," I expect my money back. I didn't get what I paid for, and didn't get my money back. So, **** 'em.

IvyTheTerrible

Hmm, I haven't noticed this yet, and I buy a mix of new and older fiction. Is it limited to american authors or what? That will annoy me if I see it.

niall2701

to SionnachOghma it's all about the DRM with E books while you have paid (normally more than a paper book) your money you don't actually "own" the book, you're just renting it and the publishers can, if they wish delete it from your ebook when you connect it to your pc.

Ok that doesn't happen a lot but it could.

and Ivy yes torrents are a Very very very grey area and I've used them to get copies of books I've bought before I got my e reader. Authors need the cash generated from sales and you are a multi million selling author every sale helps. So don't d/l books you'd "like" to have d/l books you already have.

that's my tuppence worth anyway

sceptre

Mod note guys: we don't do torrents or torrent discussion on boards (due to both legalities and policy) so if you could kill that particular part of the discussion that'd be cool. There's the rest of the Internet to be talking about them:)

ixoy wrote: »

Also - will Irish legislation change for e-Books with regards to VAT? To protect our cultural heritage, there's 0% VAT on books but this doesn't apply to eBooks as they're classified as electronic media. Government could surely apply a blanket policy on VAT for books, no matter what the media.

As far as I know, there's no particular intention to fix this. Realistically it should be done though, as buying an electronic copy of a book is just as valid as buying a paper copy and arguably does more for heritage protection (given the tiny outlay required on making ebooks available compared with printed books, which makes it far more likely that a special interest book will be produced as an electronic copy) so keeping the tax categories updated would be a good move.

Toby Take a Bow wrote: »

I've heard about this happening, I wasn't sure whether it was true or not. I think there was a story about Amazon deleting 1984 from Kindles even though it was bought legally.

That happened (unfortunately while they were bought legally, they weren't sold legally). Have a look here and here for the details. Given the main themes of 1984, half the irony meters on the Internet exploded that day.

niall2701

With credit card in hand I'm trying to pay for an ebook but keep getting the message "this title is not available in your territory" and that's from Waterstones...the US sites that I joined via proxy server are giving me the same messages. I can buy ANY actual book from these sites but not ebooks .. I want to pay but no one wants my money.

SionnachOghma

niall2701 wrote: »

With credit card in hand I'm trying to pay for an ebook but keep getting the message "this title is not available in your territory" and that's from Waterstones...

Try ordering an Irish ebook from an Irish site and being told this. I was trying to buy 'How Many Miles to Babylon' on an Irish-owned website once and was blocked due to territorial restrictions.

These people are idiots. The ebook market would do much better if they'd pull their heads out of their @$$€;$, but they don't seem interested in running a market that works.

x_Ellie_x

SionnachOghma wrote: »

I didn't need to change the billing address, just the delivery addy, and Amazon never said anything about it. Also, the address I changed seems to apply specifically to my Kindle account. It was in the 'Manage your Kindle' section - I just clicked on 'Country' and typed in an address.

I didn't need to fake the whole address, either. I moved my real postcode (Co. Dublin) up to the 'City' field, slapped in the U.S State and Postcode, and changed my country. If I'd needed to change the billing address I wouldn't have done it. Might have been a bridge too far...

Does anyone know if changing your delivery address will also work for the tv series digital downloads on amazon.com too?

SionnachOghma

x_Ellie_x wrote: »

Does anyone know if changing your delivery address will also work for the tv series digital downloads on amazon.com too?

Haven't tried that, but it should work. If it doesn't I'm pretty sure you'll be stopped before any charge is applied to your card, so it shouldn't cost you anything to check.

Solair

I was thinking of buying a Kindle, but having read through this thread and others about all the ridiculous restrictions placed upon Irish customers, I really couldn't be bothered!

I find it utterly ridiculous that publishers seem to be able to just flout EU law. Why, as an EU citizen, in an EU country, can I not purchase content from any other EU country?

Why is the recording / publishing industry exempt from EU law on this one?
Has anyone challenged this?

Arbour T

I bought a new kindle a couple of months ago and registered it using amazon.com as I thought I had no other choice. However, from reading various internet discussions I decided to change my address in the "manage your kindle"section to a UK addresss so I could buy ebooks from amazon.co.uk. I used a friend's addrsess so I had a valid postcode etc.

This seemed to be working fine and I managed to buy several books from .co.uk with no problems. However a few weeks ago I received an email from amazon asking for ID to back up my new address. I just ignored this email and continued to buy books from .co.uk. But then this week I tried to buy books from .co.uk and instead of being able to download the book I get a message directing me to the .com website or else telling me to contact customer services.

I'm really annoyed about this as there is a book I want to get which is featured as the kindle book of the day on amazon.co.uk today and so only around a tenth of the price of the same book on amazon.com

Has anyone else using a UK address had this problem and is there anyway around it?

Solair

Publishers flouting EU law there.
It's ridiculous! What's the point of having the EU single market if these bullies just refuse to recognise it?

Doc Ruby

SionnachOghma wrote: »

These people are idiots. The ebook market would do much better if they'd pull their heads out of their @$$€;$, but they don't seem interested in running a market that works.

And you can bet there's some knuckledragging sloping forehead in marketing slapping himself on the back over it. I couldn't even legitimately buy an ebook reader (the nook) without going to ebay.

Oh the internet is going to teach these people a hard, hard lesson. The only pity is its the authors who will lose out at the end of the day.