Irate dad takes son out of school over prayer recital

aceygray

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/irate-dad-takes-son-out-of-school-over-prayer-recital-2512766.html

Martijn Leenheer said he was "shocked" to accidentally discover five-year-old Finn had been reciting prayers several times a day at Drumlease Primary School in Dromahair, Co Leitrim, despite the fact that his parents had opted out of Catholic religious instruction for their child.

Congratulations to these parents for speaking out about this. It's cases like this that really highlight the need for a secular education system.

Dades

Well done indeed for highlighting this, though I feel a bit sorry for the kid who has to start over in a new school.

MagicMarker

Awaits the ''sure what harm is it doing'' brigade.

Delirium

MagicMarker wrote: »

Awaits the ''sure what harm is it doing'' brigade.

And lets not forget the "but he was in a catholic school. If he doesn't want the child praying, send him to another school" group.

ShooterSF

In a statement, school principal David O'Farrell said the school had a long-established tradition of "promoting equality and respecting diversity".

"The mission statement of the school makes it clear that a Catholic ethos is an integral part of the curriculum and day-to-day life of the school. This includes a short prayer at the start and the end of the day.

Well done on not contradicting yourself there buddy. And he got to be a school principal??

Wolfe Tone

Could the kid just not stand there and not say it?

wolfpawnat

Ireland is a multicultural country now. So I would assume that there are more than Catholics being taught there, so the child could refrain from prayers like the other children!

That said, I think the dad is going to far with the legal action to that level. Yes he should take issue with them regarding the legality of breaking the agreement they made, but a bit much to go that far!!

Zillah

MagicMarker wrote: »

Awaits the ''sure what harm is it doing'' brigade.

koth wrote: »

And lets not forget the "but he was in a catholic school. If he doesn't want the child praying, send him to another school" group.

Such contempt I feel.

Nailz

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Ireland is a multicultural country now. So I would assume that there are more than Catholics being taught there, so the child could refrain from prayers like the other children!

That said, I think the dad is going to far with the legal action to that level. Yes he should take issue with them regarding the legality of breaking the agreement they made, but a bit much to go that far!!

Well then what's the point of having a legally binding writen contract when you're not going to do anything about it when it's breached?? Might as well have been a gentlemen's agreement if that were the case.

Nice to see the chap step in full on when he found out what was going on, and making people aware of it, goodness knows how much this is happening in other schools around the country without any outside knowledge.

Busi_Girl08

It's kind of sad, really, what the options for most parents and children (although they're generally not the ones with the say in this) in these situations are.

1) The child adheres to the school's religious ethos. Prayers, Mass, sacraments, etc. Regardless of parents' beliefs.
2) The parents opt out of religious practices and teachings on the child, thus leaving the child left out when the rest of their friends are taking part in these activities (going to church to practice Confession/Communion, etc)
3) Pull the kid out of the school that does not reflect the parents' beliefs or lack thereof, and have a pretty hard time trying to find a place that will suit them.

It is about time that this problem has been highlighted, but it sucks that the kid is stuck in the middle of it.

magicbastarder

wolfpawnat wrote: »

That said, I think the dad is going to far with the legal action to that level.

unfortunately, legal action is all that the school will listen to. without it, nothing would change except perhaps where the kid went to school.

it's still a bit of a mess, though.

RMD

I'd consider a school making someone as young as 5 pray multiple times a day essentially brainwashing. Well done to the dad speaking out.

ShooterSF

Busi_Girl08 wrote: »

It's kind of sad, really, what the options for most parents and children (although they're generally not the ones with the say in this) in these situations are.

1) The child adheres to the school's religious ethos. Prayers, Mass, sacraments, etc. Regardless of parents' beliefs.
2) The parents opt out of religious practices and teachings on the child, thus leaving the child left out when the rest of their friends are taking part in these activities (going to church to practice Confession/Communion, etc)
3) Pull the kid out of the school that does not reflect the parents' beliefs or lack thereof, and have a pretty hard time trying to find a place that will suit them.

It is about time that this problem has been highlighted, but it sucks that the kid is stuck in the middle of it.

and even if they do it it causes segregation between kids based on their parents beliefs. This kid may have friends in his school and may now lose them.

AnonymousPrime

MagicMarker wrote: »

Awaits the ''sure what harm is it doing'' brigade.

........phew, i got here as fast as I could.

But sure what harm is it doing him?

Dades

AnonymousPrime wrote: »

But sure what harm is it doing him?

The school lied to his father.

And lies make baby Jesus cry.

robindch

Busi_Girl08 wrote: »

It is about time that this problem has been highlighted, but it sucks that the kid is stuck in the middle of it.

You're quite correct -- religion quite often uses coercive social pressure to secure an unfair advantage to itself. Most parents would probably have kept quiet (ah sure, what harm? ), but fair dues to this guy for actually standing up to the school management.

Busi_Girl08 wrote: »

1) The child adheres to the school's religious ethos.

At the risk of repeating myself ad nauseam populorum, what is happening is not a bland and gentle case of adhering to a "religious ethos".

On the contrary, it is a straightforward attempt to brainwash a child by (a) disregarding the express wishes of the parents, (b) disregarding the agreement they thought they had reached with the school's management, and most pointedly, by (c) directly abusing the carefree innocence that all young children have.

It's revolting. And unwise to buy into the stupid "ethos"-based terminology which has been developed by the religious not to declare what's going on, but -- like much else the church has done -- to conceal.

Shazbot

koth wrote: »

And lets not forget the "but he was in a catholic school. If he doesn't want the child praying, send him to another school" group.

No sooner said than done. Someone wrote a Letter to the editor with that exact sentiment.

Frank White in the Indo wrote:

I refer to Anita Guidera's article regarding an irate dad taking his son out of school over a prayer recital (Irish Independent, January 27).

Ireland has been a Catholic country for centuries. Our education system was built by religious orders and prayer has been part of that education.

For hundreds of years our religion was forced underground, and our forefathers attended Mass on a rock and hedge schools for their education.

I feel we should call time on complaints against our education system. Should we deprive the majority of children of having religious teaching so as not to offend some people?

I would suggest that if the routine and ethos of the school does not suit, go find a school that does.

Frank White
Newbridge, co Kildare

He seems to have missed the point of the father being assured that his son would be exempt from the practices was blantantly lied to. Who would've thought the Catholics would lie?

Fair play to the father for doing what he did.

MrPudding

Shazbot wrote: »

He seems to have missed the point of the father being assured that his son would be exempt from the practices was blantantly lied to.

he also seems to have missed the point that whilst it is very easy indeed to say "if you don't like it find another school," finding another school might not be so easy. But then, they don't really care. As long as the discrimination is going the other way it is fine.

MrP

vinchick

To be honest at this point I can't see a way of this working unless religious education is moved to outside school hours, after school, Saturdays and the like. When I went to school in England there was no religious education and I went to Sunday school to colour in pictures of Noah's ark and Zacchaeus up the tree. This was a very good system as school spent it's time educating and Sunday school was held during mass so I didn't have to sit though it.

I would imagine it would be difficult if you see a child taking part in prayers to stop the child in a way that doesn't mark the child as being outside the class activity. The poor kid may have just been doing it as the rest of the class were.

Then again there is a big problem. When I stopped genuflecting to the alter at 14 a Nun tried to push me down to bow. When I wiggled away she kept at me asking why I didn't pray not taking "what you are selling I am not buying" as a reason for not doing so. Lucky for me I was a stubborn little goth kid so it was easy to resist the pressure. Can't imagine it would be so for a younger kid who just wants to take part in the same activities as his friends.

So the solution imo is don't have it as a class activity.

Fair play to the family.

Galvasean

MrPudding wrote: »

he also seems to have missed the point that whilst it is very easy indeed to say "if you don't like it find another school," finding another school might not be so easy.

He also seems to have missed the point that the guy did find his kid another school... in Sligo. quite the trek when you live in Leitrim

Zombrex

Shazbot wrote: »

He seems to have missed the point of the father being assured that his son would be exempt from the practices was blantantly lied to. Who would've thought the Catholics would lie?

It shows the typical thinking in this country of assuming yours priorities are in the right just because they are your priorities.

One could just as easily argue should we force children to participate in religious instruction just so Catholic children have prayer in school.

AnonymousPrime

Dades wrote: »

The school lied to his father.

And lies make baby Jesus cry.

Good answer

Count Duckula

MrPudding wrote: »

he also seems to have missed the point that whilst it is very easy indeed to say "if you don't like it find another school," finding another school might not be so easy. But then, they don't really care. As long as the discrimination is going the other way it is fine.

MrP

My favourite bit is when he uses the "Catholic religion was oppressed" card to back up his beliefs, then promptly suggests that non-Catholic beliefs should be, essentially, oppressed.

I cannot begin to envisage what you lovely people in this forum had to go through in your youth. I know that my girlfriend was taught by nuns - an almost unbearable experience for a young atheist. I, on the other hand, went to an entirely secular school here in the UK. The worst I had to do was listen to a prayer once a week after Assembly, and we were quite allowed to just sit their quietly and not take part.

AudreyHepburn

I understand the Father does not like or believe the schools ethos but I think all he has done here is put his child's education in jeapordy because of his beliefs or lack of.

The child's education and needs must come first at all times imo.

MagicMarker

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I understand the Father does not like or believe the schools ethos but I think all he has done here is put his child's education in jeapordy because of his beliefs or lack of.

The child's education and needs must come first at all times imo.

How will the child's education suffer?

Less time praying, more time reading sounds like it would improve the child's education.

Jagle

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I understand the Father does not like or believe the schools ethos but I think all he has done here is put his child's education in jeapordy because of his beliefs or lack of.

The child's education and needs must come first at all times imo.

so telling a child a cosmic power created everything and a zombie who rose from the dead died for his sins and unless he lives a life free from sin he will spend eternity in hell is a decent education to give to a 5 year old?

come on religion should be removed from all schools.
end of

Delirium

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I understand the Father does not like or believe the schools ethos but I think all he has done here is put his child's education in jeapordy because of his beliefs or lack of.

The child's education and needs must come first at all times imo.

exactly right, that's why the father removed his child from the school. He decided that being trained in christian teachings wasn't in the best interest of the child.

Doctor DooM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I understand the Father does not like or believe the schools ethos but I think all he has done here is put his child's education in jeapordy because of his beliefs or lack of.

The child's education and needs must come first at all times imo.

Actually, I would say it's the school that's refusing to honour it's word, wasting time on teaching what is naught but made up nonsense, and effectively forcing the father to change schools in order to provide the child the education he believes they deserve.

Galvasean

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I understand the Father does not like or believe the schools ethos but I think all he has done here is put his child's education in jeapordy because of his beliefs or lack of.

The child's education and needs must come first at all times imo.

How has he put his child's education at jeopardy? He took the required steps to make a legal agreement with a school to educate his kid without added Catholicism. Then when the school broke their end of the bargain he called them on it. When they refused to keep their side of the agreement he enrolled his child in another school.
How anyone can think the father is the one in the wrong here is mind boggling... Oh wait, it's you, the one who decides Atheists = wrong regardless.

Laisurg

It makes my blood boil when i hear about schools making kids practise religion without the parents permission.

Aruba08

fair play to him. Our boys are in a catholic school as we are in a rural area and it is the only local one. They do not do religion and the school are 100% supportive. Ds1 is in 4th and does homework or extra work at religion time as ds2 who is in JI just crosses his arms are prayer time. Some schools are not as understanding

AudreyHepburn

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

The child's education and needs must come first at all times imo.

Exactly. That's why the child has been removed from the prayer-fest.

strobe

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I understand the Father does not like or believe the schools ethos but I think all he has done here is put his child's education in jeapordy because of his beliefs or lack of.

The child's education and needs must come first at all times imo.

Posted at 19:16

MagicMarker wrote: »

How will the child's education suffer?

Less time praying, more time reading sounds like it would improve the child's education.

Jagle wrote: »

so telling a child a cosmic power created everything and a zombie who rose from the dead died for his sins and unless he lives a life free from sin he will spend eternity in hell is a decent education to give to a 5 year old?

come on religion should be removed from all schools.
end of

koth wrote: »

exactly right, that's why the father removed his child from the school. He decided that being trained in christian teachings wasn't in the best interest of the child.

Doctor DooM wrote: »

Actually, I would say it's the school that's refusing to honour it's word, wasting time on teaching what is naught but made up nonsense, and effectively forcing the father to change schools in order to provide the child the education he believes they deserve.

Galvasean wrote: »

How has he put his child's education at jeopardy? He took the required steps to make a legal agreement with a school to educate his kid without added Catholicism. Then when the school broke their end of the bargain he called them on it. When they refused to keep their side of the agreement he enrolled his child in another school.
How anyone can think the father is the one in the wrong here is mind boggling... Oh wait, it's you, the one who decides Atheists = wrong regardless.

bluewolf wrote: »

Exactly. That's why the child has been removed from the prayer-fest.

All posted within twelve minutes.

==========================================================
Fast work kids. Top marks.

You're a glutton for punishment Audrey.

bmarley

vinchick wrote: »

To be honest at this point I can't see a way of this working unless religious education is moved to outside school hours, after school, Saturdays and the like. When I went to school in England there was no religious education and I went to Sunday school to colour in pictures of Noah's ark and Zacchaeus up the tree. This was a very good system as school spent it's time educating and Sunday school was held during mass so I didn't have to sit though it.

I would imagine it would be difficult if you see a child taking part in prayers to stop the child in a way that doesn't mark the child as being outside the class activity. The poor kid may have just been doing it as the rest of the class were.

Then again there is a big problem. When I stopped genuflecting to the alter at 14 a Nun tried to push me down to bow. When I wiggled away she kept at me asking why I didn't pray not taking "what you are selling I am not buying" as a reason for not doing so. Lucky for me I was a stubborn little goth kid so it was easy to resist the pressure. Can't imagine it would be so for a younger kid who just wants to take part in the same activities as his friends.

So the solution imo is don't have it as a class activity.

Fair play to the family.

I would agree with you here. Religion and sacraments should be kept outside school doors. Schools should no longer have clergy as part of it's management/boards of management. Enough damage has already been done in Irish schools/institutions in the name of religion.

AudreyHepburn

strobe wrote: »

Posted at 19:16












All posted within twelve minutes.

==========================================================
Fast work kids. Top marks.

You're a glutton for punishment Audrey.

It's got nothing to do with wanting to be punished or anything stupid like that. I was merely adding my opinion to the discussion.

I would like to make btw that I never said anything about athiests or athiesim being wrong at all. I just don't think it's right for a parent to allow their belief or lack of to come before the interests of the child.

If the only school in my area was one that banned all manner of religion and taught that only athiests are right I would still send my children there regardless of the fact that I do believe in God.

The child must come first.

AudreyHepburn

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

It's got nothing to do with wanting to be punished or anything stupid like that. I was merely adding my opinion to the discussion.

I would like to make btw that I never said anything about athiests or athiesim being wrong at all. I just don't think it's right for a parent to allow their belief or lack of to come before the interests of the child.

If the only school in my area was one that banned all manner of religion and taught that only athiests are right I would still send my children there regardless of the fact that I do believe in God.

The child must come first.

Did you miss the "Finn now attends the Educate Together school in Sligo." bit?

The child IS coming first, that's why he was put in another school.

MagicMarker

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

It's got nothing to do with wanting to be punished or anything stupid like that. I was merely adding my opinion to the discussion.

I would like to make btw that I never said anything about athiests or athiesim being wrong at all. I just don't think it's right for a parent to allow their belief or lack of to come before the interests of the child.

If the only school in my area was one that banned all manner of religion and taught that only athiests are right I would still send my children there regardless of the fact that I do believe in God.

The child must come first.

I think we're talking about different things.

Perhaps you could explain to us how the child's education is suffering?

Ghost Buster

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

It's got nothing to do with wanting to be punished or anything stupid like that. I was merely adding my opinion to the discussion.

I would like to make btw that I never said anything about athiests or athiesim being wrong at all. I just don't think it's right for a parent to allow their belief or lack of to come before the interests of the child.

If the only school in my area was one that banned all manner of religion and taught that only athiests are right I would still send my children there regardless of the fact that I do believe in God.

The child must come first.

You really really do have the oddest way with the English language coupled with an astounding capacity to miss the point. What most here desire is not an education system which bans (your odd word) religion but one where it simply is not part of an education system. Why should the faith of some or even a majority be part of an education system.
And what is it that atheists are 'right' about which could be taught in schools?

Ghost Buster

Aruba08 wrote: »

fair play to him. Our boys are in a catholic school as we are in a rural area and it is the only local one. They do not do religion and the school are 100% supportive. Ds1 is in 4th and does homework or extra work at religion time as ds2 who is in JI just crosses his arms are prayer time. Some schools are not as understanding

Im in a similar situation namely a rural area with a good community school, on the bus route etc etc. We explained that our son is not baptised, daddy is an atheist, mammy is a witch (Yeah...I know:rolleyes:) and so our kid will not be doing the whole communion, confirmation thing. Rather than have him feel like the odd one out when so young we are putting up with the end of day prayer but monitoring the situation and ummmmm conteracting it at home as diplomatically as possible. Im not sure if we are doing the right thing and am ready to change direction if and when needed.

robindch

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

If the only school in my area was one that banned all manner of religion and taught that only athiests are right I would still send my children there regardless of the fact that I do believe in God.

"Taught that only atheists are right"?

Sounds like yet another school with yet another stupid "religious ethos".

strobe

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

It's got nothing to do with wanting to be punished or anything stupid like that.

I know Audrey. It was just a joke.

I was merely adding my opinion to the discussion.

Good. These are the most interesting opinions.

I would like to make btw that I never said anything about athiests or athiesim being wrong at all. I just don't think it's right for a parent to allow their belief or lack of to come before the interests of the child.

Me too..... Yay. We agree on something?

If the only school in my area was one that banned all manner of religion and taught that only athiests are right I would still send my children there regardless of the fact that I do believe in God.

You give up very very easy. Nothing would ever ever change if everyone was like you Aud Hep. Rosa would work a serious ass groove into that back seat. But probably for the best right? Her seating experience would be so so much more comfortable. Those back seats are totally the most fun. Can I get a YUP YUP? [/quote]

The child must come first.

Yes. Yes it must. The child. The child must always come first. That is the whole point. Or if it is not the whole point send your child to me so I can have it say "giant pencil tells me what to do, giant pencil tells me what to do" 5 times a day. By the way, I speak for giant pencil. Now behave yourself or giant pencil will write on you!!!

darealtulip

AnonymousPrime wrote: »

........phew, i got here as fast as I could.

But sure what harm is it doing him?

The harm that is done is that the school breached the father's trust.

strobe

strobe wrote: »

Yes. Yes it must. The child. The child must always come first. That is the whole point. Or if it is not the whole point send your child to me so I can have it say "giant pencil tells me what to do, giant pencil tells me what to do" 5 times a day. By the way, I speak for giant pencil. Now behave yourself or giant pencil will write on you!!!

The things you come out with :D

bipedalhumanoid

Anyone remember this poll conducted by Red C for the Iona Institute in 2008?

http://ionainstitute.org/assets/files/Iona_Institute_Schools_poll.pdf

It shows that less than 50% of parents want to put their kids into catholic education. Parents who want to put their kids into proper schools are having their constitutional rights ignored by all involved.

This is a human rights issue and a constitutional/legal issue.

caro.c

Catholic schools are allowed to be Catholic.
Catholic schools are allowed to pray.

I am a Catholic.
I send my children to a Catholic School.
I expect them to be taught Catholicism.
I expect them to pray.
This is my choice.
This is my right.

bipedalhumanoid

caro.c wrote: »

Catholic schools are allowed to be Catholic.
Catholic schools are allowed to pray.

I am a Catholic.
I send my children to a Catholic School.
I expect them to be taught Catholicism.
I expect them to pray.
This is my choice.
This is my right.

That's the good thing about our constitution. It does guarantee you that right. Guess who else is guaranteed that right? ME!

I am NOT a Catholic.
I expect to be able to send my children to a non-religious school
I expect them NOT to receive religious instruction.
I expect them NOT to pray.
This is my choice.
This is my right

My rights get ignored along with the other 51% of people in this country who don't want they're kids to be taught in catholic schools.

95% of primary schools are run by the catholic church. 49% of parents want to put their kids in catholic education. What is wrong with this picture?

pljudge321

caro.c wrote: »

Catholic schools are allowed to be Catholic.
Catholic schools are allowed to pray.

I am a Catholic.
I send my children to a Catholic School.
I expect them to be taught Catholicism.
I expect them to pray.
I expect the tax payer to foot the bill to other children's detriment.
This is my choice.
This is my right.

Ahem

dixiefly

I am a catholic and we have sent our children to Catholic schools not because they are Catholic but because they were the best options from an education/ location etc point of view.

I am not sure whether prayers at the start and end of the school day are necessary and appropriate in this day and age. The reasons are that a sizeable proportion of pupils are not Catholic and their families are supporting the school. I also am not happy with the vatican and how the previous pope (and current one to a lesser extent ) have dealt with major issues such as the abuse, married / female priests etc.

I think that a time of reflection at the start and /or the end of the day. This could be in silence and in keeping with the upbringing the child has had. Schools should, however, try and educate pupils in a balanced way regarding the church / various churches and their influence in Ireland both positive and negative.

bipedalhumanoid

dixiefly wrote: »

I am a catholic and we have sent our children to Catholic schools not because they are Catholic but because they were the best options from an education/ location etc point of view.

That's pretty much going to always be the case if the church continue to run 95% of schools.

Even David Quinn agrees that there should be fewer catholic schools. But the present government seems to have persued a policy of creating more religious schools for other denominations. This is despite the fact that the second largest religious grouping in the 2006 census was 'no religion' and that it simply will not be possible to create schools for every religious grouping in ireland.

Then there is the segregation argument. If we do provide schools for all the denominations, people are going to have to choose carefully where they live based on the location of the schools. Do you want to live in a country that has Muslim areas and a Jewish areas and a protestant areas and atheist areas?

The simple solution is to create schools for everyone. This can be done in a number of ways...

1) Let your kids get their religion at home and in the church. Keep it out of school.
2) Teach world religions as an objective subject instead of religious instruction
3) Something like the Australian model which uses School chaplains. Basically, once a week, one hour of denominational religious instruction is delivered by people from the community. Parents have the option to choose a secular ethics class or for their children to attend one of the denominational religious instruction classes, or to opt out altogether.

The Australian version is controversial because it doesn't include the secular ethics option in most states.

The problem is that people want to have their cake and eat it too at the expense of others. Those uncomprimising parents will stand in the way of an education system that can work for everyone.

Delirium

caro.c wrote: »

Catholic schools are allowed to be Catholic.
Catholic schools are allowed to pray.

I am a Catholic.
I send my children to a Catholic School.
I expect them to be taught Catholicism.
I expect them to pray.
This is my choice.
This is my right.

Teachng kids about a religion as opposed to training them in Catholicism are two very different things.

The first would be okay with most people as a part of a course of lessons about the religions of the world. The second isn't ok as it is taking on the duty of parents and church.

if you want to raise them Catholic, then you and the local priest do it, and not the teacher would could be better used teaching maths, english, geography etc.

and you don't have the 'right' as you term it, it's a sense of entitlement if anything.

the government has no responsibility to train kids in Catholic dogma, it's just the system we're stuck with, for now.

bipedalhumanoid

koth wrote: »

and you don't have the 'right' as you term it, it's a sense of entitlement if anything.

Nope. It's a right. Problem for them is it isn't a right reserved for catholics.

Article 42 of the Irish Constitution wrote:

Education
Article 42

[FONT=Verdana,Verdana][FONT=Verdana,Verdana]

1. The State acknowledges that the primary and natural educator of the child is the Family and guarantees to respect the inalienable right and duty of parents to provide, according to their means, for the religious and moral, intellectual, physical and social education of their children.

2. Parents shall be free to provide this education in their homes or in private schools or in schools recognised or established by the State.

3. 1° The State shall not oblige parents in violation of their conscience and lawful preference to send their children to schools established by the State, or to any particular type of school designated by the State.
2° The State shall, however, as guardian of the common good, require in view of actual conditions that the children receive a certain minimum education, moral, intellectual and social.

4. The State shall provide for free primary education and shall endeavour to supplement and give reasonable aid to private and corporate educational initiative, and, when the public good requires it, provide other educational facilities or institutions with due regard, however, for the rights of parents, especially in the matter of religious and moral formation.

5. In exceptional cases, where the parents for physical or moral reasons fail in their duty towards their children, the State as guardian of the common good, by appropriate means shall endeavour to supply the place of the parents, but always with due regard for the natural and imprescriptible rights of the child.

[/FONT][/FONT]

http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/attached_files/Pdf%20files/Constitution%20of%20Ireland.pdf