Gerry Adams to become Baron of the Manor of Northstead

hsi

So much for all things Irish, Gerry Adams to become Baron of the Manor of Northstead. He should have refused the british Title.

http://www.u.tv/News/Adams-rejects-PM-baron-title/18511957-f83b-413b-ac11-b642c1c9663c

He didnt accept it

hsi

Downing street said he did.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/elections/adams-resigns-from-westminister-seat-2512403.html

RobbieTheRobber

hsi wrote: »

Downing street said he did.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/elections/adams-resigns-from-westminister-seat-2512403.html

Then downing street lied!

Monty Burnz

Jeez, here we go again.

We had a thread there last week that was locked and I was called a liar* because the Sinn Feiners came along and denied that SF voted for the bailout, posting a link to a different vote as evidence.

Are we about to see the same happen again?

It's only a titular thing anyway, I know it might play badly with certain quarters but really it means nothing and there's no harm in it at all. It's just one of those amusing quirks of the British parliamentary system, like the 'Black Rod' and the fella who has to knock three times before the queen can come in (may be the same man, come to think of it).

*none of them bothered to apologise, you won't be surprised to learn.

RobbieTheRobber

:rolleyes:

The Prime Minister's statement that Gerry Adams had accepted a Crown title has been disputed by the Sinn Fein President.

David Cameron told the House of Commons Mr Adams had accepted the title in order to resign his Westminster seat.

In response, Mr Adams said he had not applied and had received an apology from the PM's office.

Meanwhile, a treasury spokesman said that the Chancellor had appointed Gerry Adams to the title.

Parliamentary rules mean MPs cannot officially resign and have to accept a crown office to give up their seat.

A Treasury spokesman said on Wednesday: "Gerry Adams has said publicly that he is resigning from Parliament.

"Consistent with long-standing precedent, the Chancellor has taken this as a request to be appointed the Steward and Bailiff of the Manor of Northstead and granted the office."
Earlier, David Cameron told MPs Mr Adams had accepted the role.

Speaking in response to a question from DUP MP Nigel Dodds, the Prime Minister said he was glad that the rules had been followed.

To laughter from MPs, he added: "I'm not sure that Gerry Adams will be delighted to be Baron of the Manor of Northstead. But nonetheless I'm pleased that tradition has been maintained."

Later on Wednesday, Mr Adams said that when he was told of Mr Cameron's remarks it was the first he had "heard of this development".

Burghers

In a statement he said the claim that he had accepted a crown title was "untrue" and that he had "simply resigned"

"I am an Irish republican," he said.

"I have had no truck whatsoever with these antiquated and quite bizarre aspects of the British parliamentary system."

He described Mr Cameron's announcement as "bizarre" .

"I am sure the burghers of that Manor are as bemused as me," he added.

"I have spoken to the Prime Minister's private secretary today and he has apologised for today's events.
"The onus is on the Westminster parties to call a by-election as soon as possible in the West Belfast constituency."

On Tuesday, the Speaker's Office told the BBC that it was its understanding that Mr Adams had not applied for the crown position and therefore remained an MP.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-12287865

Apperently an MP cant resign so they appoint them as some functionary to the british state.

At no point did Gerry Adams accept anything such as this.
So if Downing street said Mr Adams had accepted this title then it lied!

mossyc123

Like he said, just a quirk of British Parliamentary procedure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_Steward_and_Bailiff_of_the_Manor_of_Northstead

Corsendonk

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

:rolleyes:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-12287865

Apperently an MP cant resign so they appoint them as some functionary to the british state.

At no point did Gerry Adams accept anything such as this.
So if Downing street said Mr Adams had accepted this title then it lied!

So he is still an MP?

mossyc123

And this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resignation_from_the_British_House_of_Commons

tonedef

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

:
At no point did Gerry Adams accept anything such as this.
So if Downing street said Mr Adams had accepted this title then it lied!

Then he's still an MP and can't run for the Dail.

Whether he likes it or not he has to accept this title if he no longer wants to me an MP. I would have thought that he's have known this before it annouced that he was going to run in the general election.

Monty Burnz

dillon1 wrote: »

Then he's still an MP and can't run for the Dail.

Whether he likes it or not he has to accept this title if he no longer wants to me an MP. I would have thought that he's have known this before it annouced that he was going to run in the general election.

To be fair, it's not the sort of thing that's that widely known.

Nehaxak

Taken from http://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/19973

“When I was told of the British Prime Minister’s remarks today this was the first I heard of this development. I understand Mr. Cameron has claimed that ‘the Honourable Member for West Belfast has accepted an office for profit under the Crown.’

“This is untrue. I simply resigned. I was not consulted nor was I asked to accept such an office. I am an Irish republican. I have had no truck whatsoever with these antiquated and quite bizarre aspects of the British parliamentary system.

“I am proud to have represented the people of west Belfast for almost three decades and to have done so without pledging allegiance to the English Queen or accepting British parliamentary claims to jurisdiction in my country.

...

“While I respect the right of British parliamentarians to have their own protocols and systems, no matter how odd these may appear to the rest of the world in general and Irish people in particular, the Prime Minister should not make claims which are untrue and inaccurate. The onus is on the Westminster parties to call a bi-election as soon as possible in the West Belfast constituency. In the meantime let me assure the people of West Belfast that the Sinn Fein party will continue to provide our first class constituency service and representation.”

RobbieTheRobber

dillon1 wrote: »

Then he's still an MP and can't run for the Dail.

Whether he likes it or not he has to accept this title if he no longer wants to me an MP. I would have thought that he's have known this before it annouced that he was going to run in the general election.

He is an Irish citizen I dont think he has to accept anything the british state trusts upon him!

deanh

Well, he took the Queen's Shilling a long time ago (even before the Northern Bank raid). Still the voters of Louth will appreciate the opportunity to vote for a Baron.

Monty Burnz

deanh wrote: »

Still the voters of Louth will appreciate the opportunity to vote for a Baron.

You get a better class of candidate in Louth.

Red Hand

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

He is an Irish citizen I dont think he has to accept anything the british state trusts upon him!

He is a British citizen too, mind. Otherwise he wouldn't have become an MP.

PomBear

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »

He is a British citizen too, mind. Otherwise he wouldn't have become an MP.

So Eamon De Valera was a British Citizen too i'm guessing?

PomBear

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/jan/25/gerry-adams-mp-parliament-rules

Sinn Féin leader's resignation letter flouts formal Commons procedure. Party spokesman says: 'We couldn't give a toss'

Legends

Monty Burnz

PomBear wrote: »

So Eamon De Valera was a British Citizen too i'm guessing?

I believe he was a Yank.

RobbieTheRobber

PomBear wrote: »

So Eamon De Valera was a British Citizen too i'm guessing?

Add in every member of the first dail too then i guess

Sponge Bob

mossyc123 wrote: »

Like he said, just a quirk of British Parliamentary procedure.

Quirk it may be but Gerry applied for the Crown Stewardship.

http://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-information-office/p11.pdf

Factsheet P11
Procedure Series
Revised August 2010
House of Commons Information Office
The Chiltern Hundreds
Under a Resolution of the House of 2 March 1624,
Members of Parliament cannot directly resign their
seat. Death, disqualification and expulsion are the
only means by which a Member's seat may be vacated
during the lifetime of a Parliament. Therefore a
Member wishing to resign has to go through the
process of applying for a paid office of the Crown,
which automatically disqualifies the Member from
holding a seat in the House of Commons. There are
two such offices: Crown Steward and Bailiff of the
Chiltern Hundreds and of the Manor of Northstead.
This Factsheet provides further background
information and lists all those who have taken such
offices since 1970.

He can take naturally them to court for breaches of myriad employment laws and post 1624 statutory and common law whatnots, should he so wish, but the matter shall not be resolved this side of our election.

in 1740, Sir Watkins Williams Wynn asked the House to decide whether he had
vacated his seat by inheriting the stewardship of the lordship and manor of Bromfield and
Yale from his father. The House decided that, by accepting the appointment (together with
the annual salary which went with it), he had ipso facto vacated his seat. A select committee
report of 1894 states the following:
It may possibly have been the attention called to Sir W. W. Wynn’s case,
together with the repeated enquiries into the number of “Place men” in the
House, resulting in the passing of the Place Act of 1742, that first originated
the idea of utilising the appointment to certain Crown stewardships for the
sole purpose of enabling Members to vacate their seats.3
The many offices of profit under the Crown included a number of crown stewardships.
However, just two of these stewardships are now used for resignation purposes.

If you think they were being mean to Gerry they could possibly have appointed him to the currently dormant, but apt, Escheatorship of Ulster which title does not have the word "Crown" in it

The last holder of Gerrys high office was none other than Michael Martin, as in THIS Michael Martin

Richard

Apparently, he could be barred as an MP for attempting to sit in the commons without swearing an oath.

So he could try that. ;-)

Nodin

It would appear that there's been a bit of fibbing.

Downing Street has apologised to Gerry Adams after the prime minister said he had accepted a Crown title.
David Cameron told the House of Commons Mr Adams had accepted the title in order to resign his Westminster seat.
This was disputed by the Sinn Fein President who said he had not applied and had received an apology from the PM's office.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-12292896

Sponge Bob

Richard wrote: »

Apparently, he could be barred as an MP for attempting to sit in the commons without swearing an oath.

So he could try that. ;-)

Too late, he should have barged in last week and gotten himself disqualified. As he was not disqualified he had to apply for the Crown Stewardship instead. Iris Robinson holds the other by the way .

blahfckingblah

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Jeez, here we go again.

We had a thread there last week that was locked and I was called a liar* because the Sinn Feiners came along and denied that SF voted for the bailout, posting a link to a different vote as evidence.

Are we about to see the same happen again?

it was the sinn feiners not the mods??? i never new voting sinn fein gave you mod status!!!

Nodin

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Too late, he should have barged in last week and gotten himself disqualified. As he was not disqualified he had to apply for the Crown Stewardship instead. Iris Robinson holds the other by the way .

He didn't apply. See post 25.

later12

It appears that the honourable gentleman, the imminent Lord Northstead may still in fact be an MP.

As he has not followed procedure in resigning, no resignation yet exists, it would appear.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-12282238

It has led to a stand-off, with the Commons authorities waiting for Mr Adams to follow procedures and the Sinn Fein president apparently content that he has done all he is going to do.

A solution will not be simple, according to Londonderry-born barrister Austen Morgan, who is an expert in constitutional law.

"The only other option is elevation to the House of Lords and I think we can be quite sure that is not going to happen”

Austen Morgan, Expert in constitutional law has said the House of Commons is unlikely to bend the rules for pragmatic purposes.

"The constitution is viewed as sacred and I don't think they are likely to diverge from it in order to satisfy the needs of one particular situation," Mr Morgan said.

"If he is not disqualified for some other reason, then he may have to stay until the end of the parliament in 2015."

Electoral law does not appear to provide a solution either.

In the UK, the Disqualifcations Act of 2000 means Westminster MPs can also sit in the Irish parliament, the Dail.

In Ireland, members of parliament are banned from sitting in the European Parliament but not in the House of Commons.

Sponge Bob

He applied albeit not knowingly. He didn't accept it once he got it but he was deemed to have resigned by virtue of the warrant of appointment being executed.

Escheator of Ulster sounds much much nicer though

Hannibal

dillon1 wrote: »

Then he's still an MP and can't run for the Dail.

Whether he likes it or not he has to accept this title if he no longer wants to me an MP. I would have thought that he's have known this before it annouced that he was going to run in the general election.

He can still run for the Dail he's just not allowed sit in another countries chamber, and he doesnt have to accept any title thrust upon him.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Be hilarious if that title gave him some bizarre antiquitated power to kick northern ireland out of the union

later12

Dotsey wrote: »

He can still run for the Dail he's just not allowed sit in another countries chamber, and he doesnt have to accept any title thrust upon him.

That leaves him with the rather interesting status of being the first (by my count) British MP to sit in an Irish legislature since Collins and De Valera. However, from a PR point of view, although his republican credentials are well established in that movement, it probably isn't the wisest thing to be running as an MP while a candidate for Dáil Eireann. There is also the issue that this leaves the people of West Belfast without the opportunity to elect a new MP for another few years and leaves Adams himself to a a bit of a PR nightmare in the Dáil chamber that will probably distract from a lot of what he may have to contribute.

Sponge Bob

If the PSNI appointed him as a Special Constable, and he accepted that appointment, that would disqualify him automatically , how about that ??

Nodin

I doubt anyone can blame Gerry for the frankly bizzare Black Adder-esque shenannigans across the water.

Monty Burnz

blahfckingblah wrote: »

it was the sinn feiners not the mods??? i never new voting sinn fein gave you mod status!!!

Nah, what happened was I posted the story, then someone came in with a link to the terms and conditions of the bailout (which SF actually did vote against) and everyone jumped on me as a liar and the mod basically said I was an idiot and locked the thread. When I proved to the mod I was correct the thread was briefly opened again, and then locked for good. Nobody apologised for calling me a liar. Anyway, that's o/t here.

So what's going to happed now? Can Gerry get out of the House of Commons without going through their amusing hoops? More to the point, can he get out in time to stand in Louth?

It would be pretty silly IMO if he didn't stand at all due to a procedural issue in the UK that nobody over here would really hold against him. On another matter, does anyone know how you pronounce Escheator?

later12

Nodin wrote: »

I doubt anyone can blame Gerry for the frankly bizzare Black Adder-esque shenannigans across the water.

Well he has applied, successfully, to become a member of that institution on many occasions. He doesn't sit in the chamber but he and his colleagues do or have used the facilities on regular occasions so he really, as a member and as someone who engages with the system, ought to be familiar with the house and its traditions.

wyndhurst

Based on Baron Gerry's media performances this week it might be a good excuse & opportunity for SF to pull him from the ticket. Gerry is an embarrassment to SF in the Republic. The man is an imbecile when it comes to economics and this election will be fought purely on economic policy. SF need to copy FG and hide their leader as much as possible. (Maybe a few weeks holidays in the Manor of Northstead)

later12

Monty Burnz wrote: »

On another matter, does anyone know how you pronounce Escheator?

Ee-sheetor

Monty Burnz

later10 wrote: »

Ee-sheetor

Duly noted, thanks.

ghostdancer

dillon1 wrote: »

Then he's still an MP and can't run for the Dail.

wrong.

REPSOC1916

Well looks like Cameron had a bit of a climb down.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-12292896

KeithAFC

later10 wrote: »

Well he has applied, successfully, to become a member of that institution on many occasions. He doesn't sit in the chamber but he and his colleagues do or have used the facilities on regular occasions so he really, as a member and as someone who engages with the system, ought to be familiar with the house and its traditions.

I agree.

KeithAFC

wyndhurst wrote: »

Based on Baron Gerry's media performances this week it might be a good excuse & opportunity for SF to pull him from the ticket. Gerry is an embarrassment to SF in the Republic. The man is an imbecile when it comes to economics and this election will be fought purely on economic policy. SF need to copy FG and hide their leader as much as possible. (Maybe a few weeks holidays in the Manor of Northstead)

What did you expect Gerry Adams to know about economics? Do people know the history of Gerry Adams? I mean really, saying he doesn't have a clue is like saying a bike can't move with one wheel. Everyone should know that.

Sponge Bob

KeithAFC wrote: »

Do people know the history of Gerry Adams? I mean really, saying he doesn't have a clue is like saying a bike can't move with one wheel. Everyone should know that.

Well a bike can move with one wheel and I do know that. Nice way of saying the accidental Crown Bailiff, Gerry, hasn't a clue

Gerry Adams knows about as much about economics as a dog does about his father.

Richard

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-12294406

It seems he is the Steward and Bailiff of the Manor of Northstead.

He could probably legally challenge this, but what would be the point?

He can also resign from this role immediately, although he'd have to accept that he was the Steward and Baliff, and I doubt he'd do that.

So he'll probably just ignore this situation and it'll go away.

Unless his opponents make political capital out of it in the coming election.

Cameron did cloud the issue by using the word Baron incorrectly, though.

As for moving the writ for a by-election - would anyone want to do this when SF have such a large majority?

Sponge Bob

Richard wrote: »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-12294406

It seems he is the Steward and Bailiff of the Manor of Northstead.

He is the Crown Steward and Bailiff to give him his full title that he got landed with for not knowing the rules

c-note

I'm from Louth

I def will NOT be voting for Gerry Adams/ SF.
I Don't trust him, and dont believe he has any contribution to make to the Dail.

But i saw the clip on the news where cameron claimed he was now the baron of .... blah, to roars of laughter, obviously the intended reaction,
and i thought to myself..

Here is the British prime minister humiliating Gerry Adams in a deliberate and calculated way in the HOC.

You may not like Gerry Adams but as a PM you should respect that he is/was an elected representitive of the people over whom you govern,
and also in what is still an ongoing and sometimes delicate peace process in NI, Its irresponsible and damaging to belittle the leader of one side in this way.

I lost a lot of respect for David Cameron and the British parliment today.
(this post is NOT in support of Gerry Adams)

KeithAFC

Nigel dodds seemed to get a kick out of it lol. They are right though.

Oasis_Dublin

What I love about Adams is the fact that he got an apology from the office of the Prime Minister in the UK and he still takes British tax payer money and does nothing to earn it. Fair play Gerry!

junder

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

What I love about Adams is the fact that he got an apology from the office of the Prime Minister in the UK and he still takes British tax payer money and does nothing to earn it. Fair play Gerry!

Yes some of you are very happy when old Gerry screws the system but then whine like a stuck pig when people have the audacity to challenge sinn fein, with crys of no far big nasty boards.ie is picking on sinn fein

Oasis_Dublin

junder wrote: »

Yes some of you are very happy when old Gerry screws the system but then whine like a stuck pig when people have the audacity to challenge sinn fein, with crys of no far big nasty boards.ie is picking on sinn fein

I resent being called "you" with the suggestion that I'm a Sinner (shinner). Irish Republicans should be immune from any form of criticism, that's only fair... it's a joke Unionist, would you relax for five seconds.

forumdedum

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

He is an Irish citizen I dont think he has to accept anything the british state trusts upon him!

He accepted the salary! I wonder would he turn up for work in the Dail.