Monk's protest angers women

Delirium

A 'PRAYERFUL protest' outside the family planning clinic in Limerick by the Franciscan Friars of the Renewal has been severely criticised by women across the country who rang RTE's Liveline yesterday, to voice their anger.
The Franciscan Friars, who are known in Limerick as the Moyross Monks, staged a protest outside the Family Planning Clinic on Mallow Street on Saturday in a campaign against promiscuity.

Siobhan, a young Limerick woman, who attended the clinic at the weekend rang Joe Duffy on Tuesday and said she had felt intimidated by their presence.

She said one of the friars stared at her directly as she entered the building, and doctors were forced to close the blinds during her appointment.

Fr Charles, who lives at St Patrick's Friary in Delmege Park, said they had staged protests outside the clinic on a number of occasions but Saturday's protest was the first in a number of months. He said the friars were there to offer prayerful support. "If somebody wants to talk to us we are there to help, we are there to talk to the people."

RTE presenter, Joe Duffy, asked Fr Charles what promiscuity had to do with family planning.

"We don't realise it but all contraception is basically a licence for casual sex," said Fr Charles. He was then asked why they had focused their campaign against promiscuity on a family planning clinic and not Boots who sell condoms, and provide the morning-after pill.

"We're not happy about that either," the priest said, adding that it was "a good idea" which he would submit to the Brothers.

Fr Charles justified the friars' presence outside the clinic by saying, "We are on the sidewalk, it is public ground and we are not aggressive to anybody, we are just there praying so there is no offence made to anybody."

The presenter commented that he has "yet to hear people from working class areas of Limerick, or indeed middle class areas of Limerick, complain that family planning is the cause of their problems."

The priest reiterated that they were there to give prayerful support and apologised if Siobhan "got spooked".

"I didn't find them very approachable when I was walking past them. I found it very intimidating really," the young woman said. "It's like they were watching me and they knew where I was going. They watched when I walked in and they watched when I walked out again, and they were judging me as if they have to pray for me."

I'm sorry you felt you were judged. What makes you feel we were judging you?" Fr Charles asked. "I just felt I was being judged," she said.

"I have a strong faith and really don't see how they think they're helping anyone by standing there. I was stressed enough going there, it wasn't a great day going there and it made the whole thing way more stressful."

An audibly angry Mr Duffy interjected saying that the Franciscan Friars had linked family planning with promiscuity.

"There's judgement."

"Do you think young women in turmoil would turn to five bearded men wearing funny clothes on the side of a street when they have no indicatioin who they are?" Mr Duffy said.

Fr Charles faced a barage of criticism as a number of incensed callers contacted the radio programme.

One caller, Sheila, said the intention of the protesters was to intimidate women going to the family planning clinic. "You can couch something anyway you like but if you want to be there for people, you let them know where you are and allow them to come to you. You don't stand there in a line pushing your views or your religion on them when they are going about private business in their own lives.

"I'm a married woman," she said. "I go to family planning clinics regularly. I would find it an absolute insult for you to assume that I was promiscuous, or for you to use the word promiscuous about any of the women in there with me. You have a nerve, you really do, and you are completely misguided."

Fr Charles tried to respond by saying that "we live in a beautiful society and...", but he was interupted by the angry called.

"Are you just going to give me your rhetoric and dogma? You have done something wrong, you have intimidated another human being for no good reason except to satisfy your own belief system. It is totally unacceptable. It may work in the country that you come from but it will not be tolerated in this country by Irish women."

Brother Shawn, Fr Charles and Fr Paulus at Delmege Park, Moyross, where the friary is based

The Family Planning Clinic on Mallow Street where the ‘prayerful protest' was held.

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/Monk39s-protest-angers-women.6702623.jp?articlepage=2

I would consider it to be intimidation tactic because according to their own faith God is everywhere, therefore they don't need to be standing outside the family planning office for the prayers to do their job.

Plus generally it would be a woman on her own, or possibly with a friend or family member, that would be approaching the building. They wouldn't do the same outside a busy nightclub/pub.

seamus

I don't understand why celibates with delusions of mythical beings feel they have any authority whatsoever when it comes to talking about sex and sexual conduct.

Looking at their website, they also appear to generally be in favour of the beardy middle-eastern look, so I wouldn't be at all surprised that women feel intimidated by these freaks.

http://www.franciscanfriars.com/vocations/index2.htm

robindch

Limerick Leader wrote:

It may work in the country that you come from but it will not be tolerated in this country by Irish women

I seem to remember that these guys are all from the USA where the religious are much more used to hanging around on street corners and hassling people in one way or another. Here's a photo of them that the LL published last time these lads were in the news:



I wonder if somebody should set up a "thinking" group outside their church sometime.

gbee

They are monks, they are probably just horny. Men hang out watching women all the time, so what's new.

Bloody Nipples

Down with that sort of thing!

Dades

Not the first time these lads have been thumping their bibles in public...

This is from last year's Good Friday thread.

Zombrex

So, who's up for a protest outside the Monk's monastery? Perhaps we can call them all child abusers and when they object that this isn't fair give them a dictionary open on the definition of irony.

liamw

It's fascinating how much the human intellect can be dumbed down through conditioning.

dcmraad

seamus wrote: »

I don't understand why celibates with delusions of mythical beings feel they have any authority whatsoever when it comes to talking about sex and sexual conduct.

Classic.

We should definitely start a group that intimidates the church going public. Would we be tolerated standing outside a church with placards saying

YOU ARE A DELUSIONAL FU6KWIT.

Or Dawkins quote about god.

There is a scene in Jay and silent Bob (movie) where the guys go and hang outside abortion clinic's to pick up easy women. Maybe the monks are too.

Dades

^^ I'd imagine that also would come across rather badly with Joe Public.

You're on your own there.

Beruthiel

robindch wrote: »

They look like a pair of homeless winos in that pic.

dcmraad

Dades wrote: »

^^ I'd imagine that also would come across rather badly with Joe Public.

You're on your own there.

Why are the religious tolerated when they do it ?, I mean look at the USA

MrPudding

dcmraad wrote: »

Why are the religious tolerated when they do it ?, I mean look at the USA

Because it is offensive to ridicule or otherwise criticise their religion, whereas, because they are following their religion and religion is good (TM) how could one possibly be offended or otherwise hurt by anything they say or do in the name of said religion? Seriously. This is basic stuff, you really should know this.;)

MrP

mikhail

liamw wrote: »

It's fascinating how much the human intellect can be dumbed down through conditioning.

Agreed. This is the second time I've visited this thread, and I've only just noticed the abortion of an apostrophe in the thread title.

Dades

dcmraad wrote: »

Why are the religious tolerated when they do it ?, I mean look at the USA

I suspect if the monks were wielding placards reading the equivalent of "YOU ARE A DELUSIONAL FU6KWIT", rather than praying, they wouldn't be tolerated either.

MrPudding

mikhail wrote: »

Agreed. This is the second time I've visited this thread, and I've only just noticed the abortion of an apostrophe in the thread title.

Perhaps only one of them was actually protesting the the other were just hanging out...

MrP

mikhail

mikhail wrote: »

Agreed. This is the second time I've visited this thread, and I've only just noticed the abortion of an apostrophe in the thread title.

My first thought was that Mr Monk himself had come to protest

Galvasean

robindch wrote: »

Here's a photo of them that the LL published last time these lads were in the news:

They look like junkies or winos as Beruthiel said. I'd be creeped out if I saw them in teh street.

axer

Dades wrote: »

I suspect if the monks were wielding placards reading the equivalent of "YOU ARE A DELUSIONAL FU6KWIT", rather than praying, they wouldn't be tolerated either.

True. Something closer would be dressing up satanic like and performed satanic rituals outside of churches. I wonder would this be tolerated.

strobe

They're free to do what they like on a public street including praying or protesting as long as they are not breaking the law. I have no real problem with their actions.

Galvasean

strobe wrote: »

They're free to do what they like on a public street including praying or protesting as long as they are not breaking the law. I have no real problem with their actions.

Ad intimidating the vulnerable perhaps? I'm not certain, but I'm fairly sure that going out of your way to intimidate someone in a public place is against the law.

strobe

Galvasean wrote: »

Ad intimidating the vulnerable perhaps? I'm not certain, but I'm fairly sure that going out of your way to intimidate someone in a public place is against the law.

Is that what they are doing? Trying to intimidate people? How do you know this? What way are you defining intimidation?

Dades

Galvasean wrote: »

Ad intimidating the vulnerable perhaps? I'm not certain, but I'm fairly sure that going out of your way to intimidate someone in a public place is against the law.

That's probably true, but - and this is just me - I suspect some people go out of their way to be intimidated (or offended, for that matter).

Galvasean

Dades wrote: »

That's probably true, but - and this is just me - I suspect some people go out of their way to be intimidated (or offended, for that matter).

While it's possible that the people who complained were allowing themselves to be intimidated when no such intimidation was intended (ie: the monks look creepy, ergo they must be creeps), the whole idea of massing outside a family planning clinic in order to influence those attending reminds me too much of the reason why you aren't allowed canvas near a polling station.

Dades

Perhaps a few politicians would be better advised getting on their knees outside polling stations if they hope to be (re)elected.

Pushtrak

robindch wrote: »

I wonder if somebody should set up a "thinking" group outside their church sometime.

They would, but then they'd think better of it.

liamw

robindch wrote: »

I wonder if somebody should set up a "thinking" group outside their church sometime.

I got this bumper sticker..

Tomk1

Galvasean wrote: »

While it's possible that the people who complained were allowing themselves to be intimidated when no such intimidation was intended (ie: the monks look creepy, ergo they must be creeps), the whole idea of massing outside a family planning clinic in order to influence those attending reminds me too much of the reason why you aren't allowed canvas near a polling station.

If I was a woman I would just flash them and say "Meditate hard on these"

vinchick

They look so creepy.

Saying that I probably would have brought them out some leaflets so they could educate themselves while hanging out on the street.

Maybe they would realise that many women go to those centres for health reasons are quite upset and worried both before and after visits. The last thing they need are monks staring at them trying to see if they are loose women who need to be saved.

Myksyk

robindch wrote: »

.

Bloody hell. They look like seriously dodgy hoodie-wearing gang members. someone should tell them to p1ss off back to the states where this sort of tactic is seen as normal.

Can we get Ricky Gervais to set up a stand up show beside them?

smcgiff

Tomk1 wrote: »

If I was a woman I would just flash them and say "Meditate hard on these"

At a guess, I'd say you'd have a better chance of distracting them than a woman.

Myksyk

strobe wrote: »

They're free to do what they like on a public street including praying or protesting as long as they are not breaking the law. I have no real problem with their actions.

It isn't illegal. It is objectionable, ignorant and presumptuous. As ignorant as, say, standing outside their house warning visitors of the risk of their being sexually abused by them.

seamus

strobe wrote: »

They're free to do what they like on a public street including praying or protesting as long as they are not breaking the law. I have no real problem with their actions.

Considering the furore that exploded over the "atheist busses" which were far more passive and less judgemental messages, I think we're entitled to make a fuss about this kind of nonsense.

strobe

seamus wrote: »

Considering the furore that exploded over the "atheist busses" which were far more passive and less judgemental messages, I think we're entitled to make a fuss about this kind of nonsense.

Considering the furore that exploded over the "atheist buses" I'd rather not react the same way as the nutjobs do.

If the people walking into into the clinic are not Catholic they should laugh at or ignore them. If they are they should have no problem with Monks praying outside the clinic.

Getting up in arms over stuff like this only provides the oxygen of publicity to them. Reacting with disinterest and a hearty yawn would be a far better response to this kind of thing.

Dades

strobe wrote: »

If the people walking into into the clinic are not Catholic they should laugh at or ignore them. If they are they should have no problem with Monks praying outside the clinic.

That's an interesting point. If you consider yourself a catholic then many family planning clinic services are against your religion. If you don't, then why not ignore them (or point and laugh) as you would a Hare Krishna or some random nutjob with a placard.

Inherent catholic guilt?

*stirs pot*

gbee

Dades wrote: »

Inherent catholic guilt? *stirs pot*

Absolutely, which is why I advocate that bringing a baby up in any religion is child abuse and the parent should face sanctions.

You can never shift that guilt, nor can the extreme Muslims who shout Allah as they detonate their bomb.

It crushes people. But we've had this thread recently.

mikhail

strobe wrote: »

Considering the furore that exploded over the "atheist buses" I'd rather not react the same way as the nutjobs do.

I know what you mean, but this isn't the same. Women going into those clinics are often in a difficult place, emotionally. Now, I get as emotional, getting onto a bus, as the next guy. Which is to say not.

strobe

mikhail wrote: »

I know what you mean, but this isn't the same. Women going into those clinics are often in a difficult place, emotionally. Now, I get as emotional, getting onto a bus, as the next guy. Which is to say not.

I'm not saying they are the parallel situations. Just saying lets not freak out because a bunch of beardy guys are speaking to their fairy godmother on the side of a street.

If Catholics feel like they are being 'judged' then tough. Your whole religion is about being judged. If they are going into the FPC to do something un-Catholic then maybe they should think about why exactly they are running around calling themselves Catholic. If they are going in there for a smear test or something then they have nothing to feel guilty about.

If they aren't a Catholic there is no reason why a bunch of celibate grape fermenters judgement or presence should mean anything to them.

axer

strobe wrote: »

I'm not saying they are the parallel situations. Just saying lets not freak out because a bunch of beardy guys are speaking to their fairy godmother on the side of a street.

If Catholics feel like they are being 'judged' then tough. Your whole religion is about being judged. If they are going into the FPC to do something un-Catholic then maybe they should think about why exactly they are running around calling themselves Catholic. If they are going in there for a smear test or something then they have nothing to feel guilty about.

If they aren't a Catholic there is no reason why a bunch of celibate grape fermenters judgement or presence should mean anything to them.

I think you are forgetting the psychological affect on people here.

Many (if not most) Irish people were brought up catholic and brainwashed to a certain extent when they were young and vunerable into "believing" certain things are unquestionably wrong (some people were able to realise the ridiculusness of what was being thought but you cannot expect all children to).

IMO many people that might not practice their religion (nor really want to be involved) have been unable to leave those beliefs behind without some scar tissue i.e. thoughts still inside the head as they were planted when very young and vunerable.

That is why I think this type of psychological "warfare" can affect many women some of who are in a vunerable state i.e. worried about an unplanned pregnancy etc and the last thing they might want are judging eyes from the religion that implanted specific beliefs in their head (i.e. that abortion is evil) watching them as they possibly consider going against those beliefs that were implanted.

It is amazing how ideas, beliefs and events that are implanted/happen when children are young can come back in an irrational way.

I know in my case situations where I rationally know something is right or wrong but feelings that come from when I was young might make me feel otherwise. In my case I will always take the rational approach as I am able to step back and rationally think about a situation without letting my emotions or feelings over shadow but not everyone can do this and it might be very hard when you are already in a vunerable state.

strobe

Ok, fair enough. Maybe I am being a little harsh. It's just I genuinely could not care less what anyone thinks about me beyond my friends and family (and even then only to a certain extent) and sometimes forget other people just aren't like that.

I understand the point being made about hang-ups left over from a Catholic upbringing and don't discount the possibility that the monks are deliberately trying to play on this. It was just the woman in the OP talking about being someone of "strong faith" and then complaining about Franciscan friars praying and feeling like she was "being judged" annoyed me a bit. Prayer and being judged are the bread and butter of Catholicism. It just gets to me when I hear these people operating on this weird doublethink wavelength.

axer

strobe wrote: »

It was just the woman in the OP talking about being someone of "strong faith" and then complaining about Franciscan friars praying and feeling like she was "being judged" annoyed me a bit. Prayer and being judged are the bread and butter of Catholicism. It just gets to me when I hear these people operating on this weird doublethink wavelength.

Yes, I agree with this. It doesnt make sense.

Galvasean

She said, "strong faith" but did she say in which religion? Maybe she has "strong faith" in that happy-go-lucky nice God (who doesn't judge people over mmost things) a lot of people like to believe in.

Teresa Anne

It will be tolerated because I am an Irish woman and I am sick and tired of what's going on in Ireland. The friars are here to do their work and there are thousands who welcome them. They have every right to pray outside those premises. Boots are next. We all know about the business men who pay for referrals for abortions in fear of their wives finding out?

Teresa Anne

Teresa Anne wrote: »

It will be tolerated because I am an Irish woman and I am sick and tired of what's going on in Ireland. The friars are here to do their work and there are thousands who welcome them. They have every right to pray outside those premises. Boots are next. We all know about the business men who pay for referrals for abortions in fear of their wives finding out?

fatmammycat

I don't know ANY business men who pay for abortions. And if prayer works so well why can't these men pray in the comfort of their own home, why bother people going about their lawful business?

fatmammycat

fatmammycat wrote: »

I don't know ANY business men who pay for abortions. And if prayer works so well why can't these men pray in the comfort of their own home, why bother people going about their lawful business?

Because it only works if you do exactly the opposite of what jesus said about showing off your prayer :pac:

Teresa Anne

Many Catholics in Ireland are delighted the friars arrived. We won't be bullied nor will they. They are here on mission work and thank God they arrived. They will continue to pray outside such centres and we will not be intimidated by such horrible comments above. The IFPA are connected to PP and we will not be silent anymore in what is REALLY going on here. Money buys, but for those who have a conscience, not everyone will be bought, even by the business men who have secret affairs and want quick referrals for abortions least their good wives find out? Welcome to Ireland, Friars, you are much needed here. Our sincere apologies for such vicious accusations. Please ignore and continue. We know that some will be difficult but we are with you.

As for the radio commentator, will the real Mr. Duffy please stand up?

Morag

You don't need money to get a referal to a clinic in the UK or Holland to get an abortion, that is done free as part of the crisses pregnancy couselling. So frankly your talking out of your hat.

As for picking such clinics in such abhorent way, I really am disguisted that people in this country would go down this route, well we need cordons and escorts for women who are attending such clinics legally and for reasons which have nothing to do with abortion?

Contraception and sex outside of marriage is not illegal, if you find it immoral and contray to your personal religion then don't do it but it's none of your business what other people do.

Tiramisu

It's a pity they didn't protest outside schools, Churches and parochial houses when young children were being raped, buggered and abused inside. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Teresa Anne

bluewolf wrote: »

Sorry, I should have said I'm quoting from an above comment which said "Irish women will not tolerate...." that is my reply to that, being an Irish woman.:)

Morag

But Teresa Anne you don't speak for all irish women only yourself.