Are the Left economically ignorant?

nickobrien1985

What the left want:

- Higher taxes on the rich, i.e those who create wealth and jobs, and those who can hide their monies.

- Child benefit for all

- Higher dole rates

- Higher minimum wages

- More spending on the inefficient public sector.


Are they plain thick or just plain ignorant?

sceptre

I think you'll find, with a little more research, that being "on the left" can be a little more complicated than what you've presented above. While there are undoubtedly those who would like all of the above as soon as possible, and preferably yesterday, being "on the left" runs as broad a gamut as being "on the right".

nickobrien1985 wrote: »

Are they plain thick or just plain ignorant?

As I said above, I suggest reading a little more. Life views across the political spectrum are a little more complicated than you've asserted. Research can't be underestimated as a tool for self-improvement - frankly I'm disappointed that your view of one side (could be either side) of the political vista appears to be that simplistic. There are far more opinions than depicted above.

johnnyskeleton

nickobrien1985 wrote: »

What the left want:

Don't worry, this is Ireland, where the right want:

- Higher taxes on the rich, i.e those who create wealth and jobs, and those who can hide their monies.

- Child benefit for all

- Higher dole rates

- Higher minimum wages

- More spending on the inefficient public sector.

nickobrien1985 wrote: »

Are they plain thick or just plain ignorant?

I think when all parties are trying to feed us the same flavourless schlop, it may be time that we take the focus off the parties (who are, after all, giving the people exactly what the people ask for) and instead look towards some people's unrealistic expectations of government.

zig

nickobrien1985 wrote: »

What the left want:

- Higher taxes on the rich, i.e those who create wealth and jobs, and those who can hide their monies.

- Child benefit for all

- Higher dole rates

- Higher minimum wages

- More spending on the inefficient public sector.


Are they plain thick or just plain ignorant?

care to elaborate a bit instead of blindly or ignorantly slamming it.

Im not saying im in 100% agreement with the socialists but stop thinking they dont have a clue about what theyre talking about.

They just see it differently to you.

Suppose I said to you that we should dump 50 billion into healthcare, id be laughed at, that doesnt make sense at all. Yet its ok to dump 50 billion into dead banks, thats the way they see it. Its not ignorant its just a viewpoint.

The ironic thing about the socialist party is that they think the bondholders and banks that left themselves exposed to Irish banks should take the pain. That is how capitalism works,i.e. free market, yet they are the only ones along with the shinners willing to go that route.

later12

I think the original post is unhelpful. There are many people on the left whose intellect and breadth of economic experience I admire, but whose views cannot be reconciled with my own free market and economically more liberal views.

It is largely a personality issue - a position on how one imagines or interprets society and his position, and dare i say responsibility, within that society.

I don't think "the left", meaning generally the united Left, Sinn Féin and the labour party are unintelligent, but i do sometimes wonder about their grasp of where the country is right now, and the extent to which their unrealistic belief system is tied to their expectation, or natural position, in opposition as a sort of social safety valve, as opposed to parties who genuinely expect to reach power.

I think the left have a valuable role to play as spokespeople for the under privileged, but i don't see their role as being one of governance. and it doesn't always have to be.

Birdnuts

nickobrien1985 wrote: »

What the left want:

- Higher taxes on the rich, i.e those who create wealth and jobs, and those who can hide their monies.

- Child benefit for all

- Higher dole rates

- Higher minimum wages

- More spending on the inefficient public sector.


Are they plain thick or just plain ignorant?

I don't think the types at "Davos" can throw any stones eithier:rolleyes:

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

ei.sdraob

nickobrien1985 wrote: »

Are they plain thick or just plain ignorant?

Dangerous would be a better word, for the economy and the people they try to pull wool over.

The_Thing

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Dangerous would be a better word, for the economy and the people they try to pull wool over.

Could they be any more dangerous than the supposedly economically-literate right-wingers?

ei.sdraob

The_Thing wrote: »

Could they be any more dangerous than the supposedly economically-literate right-wingers?

Statists both left and right have a tendency to **** up economies due to their meddling in markets one way or another.

And FF are far from "right wing" when it came to economics as history shows.

RichardAnd

Idiots can be left or right wing incline, it's just a case of what they choose to shout about without thinking.

nickobrien1985

The rise of the far-left in this difficult economic recession reminds me of the rise of Nazism and Communism in the 1920s and 1930s, they preach populist methods but have no real alternative except to enslave the people.

Tipp Man

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Dangerous would be a better word, for the economy and the people they try to pull wool over.

I'm really glad somebody used the word dangerous, thats exactly how I feel about them

The_Thing wrote: »

Could they be any more dangerous than the supposedly economically-literate right-wingers?

Well I suppose it depends on how left they go, anybody with anything remotely resembling an asset had better pray the socialist party or SF never see power as they will take an awful lot from them - regardless of how it has been acquired

Permabear

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P. Breathnach

The intolerance of some people on the right is even more dangerous than the looniest left-winger.

Shelga

I will vote for the party I believe is most likely to make the country economically prosperous. Making us rich (or at least not as f***ed as present) should be priority number one, and everything else- welfare, the health system, public sector- should be much further down the list.

To that end, I will be voting Fine Gael and would probably go for the PDs if they were still around. Not that I am saying I have any real faith in FG of course :rolleyes: So I guess I kind of agree with the OP, that anyone who votes for an economically left government isn't seeing the bigger picture.

However, as another poster said, surely left-wing politics isn't that simple? Can anyone expand upon this? I don't consider myself particularly knowledgable about politics, just trying to learn.

P.S. As a longtime lurker on Politics, have been idly wondering the last few days where donegalfella had gone, and who this sage "Permabear" was! Doh

ardmacha

More spending on the inefficient public sector.

Perhaps they propose more spending on the efficient public sector.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Killer Pigeon

nickobrien1985 wrote: »

What the left want:

- Higher taxes on the rich, i.e those who create wealth and jobs, and those who can hide their monies.

- Child benefit for all

- Higher dole rates

- Higher minimum wages

- More spending on the inefficient public sector.


Are they plain thick or just plain ignorant?

I think the question is, are some of the right-wingers ignorant (especially the ones in the Government over the last couple of years).
- Investing less in domestic Irish business development in comparison to foreign direct investment.
- Lowering the minimum wage and lowering the tax net; this will lead to losses in consumer expenditure and losses in tax revenue.
- Taxing the middle and lower income owners and making their lives a living hell while allowing the rich of scott free with ridiculous tax reliefs.

Dannyboy83

nickobrien1985 wrote: »

What the left want:

- Higher taxes on the rich, i.e those who create wealth and jobs, and those who can hide their monies.

- Child benefit for all

- Higher dole rates

- Higher minimum wages

- More spending on the inefficient public sector.


Are they plain thick or just plain ignorant?

That's just the left in Ireland - they're hopeless.

I would genuinely love the opportunity to vote for a real socialist party.

The likes of Labour are simply Fianna Fail under a different name i.e. they have sod all interest in establishing a genuine socialist society - they simply want to look after their own vested interests.

What kind of a socialist system seeks to tax you into oblivion to protect the pay and pensions of a public sector which is substantially better paid than you to begin with?

This is no different to what Fianna Fail did with their buddies in building/banking and so on - only difference is the beneficiaries are different, but it's still one small section of society living it up at the expense of the rest of society.

For that reason, I consider it safer to vote right, in Ireland anyway.

Count Dooku

P. Breathnach wrote: »

The intolerance of some people on the right is even more dangerous than the looniest left-winger.

intolerance is just response on abusing tolerance

Uuuh Patsy

nickobrien1985 wrote: »

The rise of the far-left in this difficult economic recession reminds me of the rise of Nazism and Communism in the 1920s and 1930s, they preach populist methods but have no real alternative except to enslave the people.

I think you will find that Hitler the lunatic that he was and all, was also an economic genius and turned the German economy around. Time man of the year in 38. You can sure the bond holders would have took a hair cut under his reign. He had no sympathy for banking Industry

rumour

RichardAnd wrote: »

Idiots can be left or right wing incline, it's just a case of what they choose to shout about without thinking.

Very good point. Just listened to mr Gilmore on Newstalk.

He believes in honouring agreements...croke park stands, he believes we have to renegotiate the EU/IMF deal(apparently that is not an agreement), he believes passing the finance bill is an imperative although he does not agree with it. Oh and believes we should start building more schools to get all those unemployed building workers back to work.

Cutting to the chase he's appealing to the voting base.
Public sector......................tick
Nasty EU/IMF bankers etc.....tick
Jobs..................................tick

But here's something I can't sqaure with his beliefs. He wants to be in power and he has a massive policy document somewhere supporting all of this.....but he's fielding "a" candidate in all 43 constituencies. Then quickly added some would have more than that. So doing a little maths which I guess were all supposed to ignore he'll never have the 83 seats for a majority government, worse he has consiously decided to do this.

So he knows he's heading for compromise....what do you think will stand when it comes to it. My opinion for what its worth is he'll deliver (whether he wants to or not) the opposite to what he is preaching right now.

EU/IMF he'll give up on that, as it's pretty difficult to negotiate when all the barganiing power(money) is on the other side of the table, remember if growth doesn't hit +1.75% the money is in jeopardy. Then to croke park well anyone can figure where the bargining power is here.

So is the guy left or right. Personally I don't think he gives a hoot what he is, he knows as do all the parties what the eventual outcome will be, pretty much as i've outlined above.

He will however appeal with all the skill he has aquired over the years to make you believe something can be different. Not true. Again is he left or right.....he has consiously decided he's going into government with someone else and has ruled out Sinn Fein which to me means he's already leaning towards Fine Gael, that's not left, is it? Although every day he publically announces his intention is to stand alone in this election???? with +43 seats?

I've only highlighted him as he was on the radio this morning. Fine Gael are the same but marginally more honest in my opinion as they do seem to tell people how snookered we are. I'm not going to comment on Sinn Fein, I do think they are honest (but sometimes I think they live on a different planet to me.) in that they are left and we can see it as that.

The argument of whether we are left or right will not be decided by the electorate, labour and fine gael are headed for a deal the outcome of which we'll not know until the election is over. So we the electorate will only have a very minor minor role in any policies that the future government decide to embark upon. Democracy?????

The outcome is no better than what we have just had, constant turmoil between two parties seeking to appease diametrically opposing political ideologies in their support base.

A fudge is what we will get, and the leaders of both main contenders know this but repeatedly get on the airwaves and try and make us believe that it is not the case.

All at a time when we are broke....

meditraitor

rumour wrote: »

Very good point. Just listened to mr Gilmore on Newstalk.

He believes in honouring agreements...croke park stands, he believes we have to renegotiate the EU/IMF deal(apparently that is not an agreement), he believes passing the finance bill is an imperative although he does not agree with it. Oh and believes we should start building more schools to get all those unemployed building workers back to work.

Cutting to the chase he's appealing to the voting base.
Public sector......................tick
Nasty EU/IMF bankers etc.....tick
Jobs..................................tick

But here's something I can't sqaure with his beliefs. He wants to be in power and he has a massive policy document somewhere supporting all of this.....but he's fielding "a" candidate in all 43 constituencies. Then quickly added some would have more than that. So doing a little maths which I guess were all supposed to ignore he'll never have the 83 seats for a majority government, worse he has consiously decided to do this.

So he knows he's heading for compromise....what do you think will stand when it comes to it. My opinion for what its worth is he'll deliver (whether he wants to or not) the opposite to what he is preaching right now.

EU/IMF he'll give up on that, as it's pretty difficult to negotiate when all the barganiing power(money) is on the other side of the table, remember if growth doesn't hit +1.75% the money is in jeopardy. Then to croke park well anyone can figure where the bargining power is here.

So is the guy left or right. Personally I don't think he gives a hoot what he is, he knows as do all the parties what the eventual outcome will be, pretty much as i've outlined above.

He will however appeal with all the skill he has aquired over the years to make you believe something can be different. Not true. Again is he left or right.....he has consiously decided he's going into government with someone else and has ruled out Sinn Fein which to me means he's already leaning towards Fine Gael, that's not left, is it? Although every day he publically announces his intention is to stand alone in this election???? with +43 seats?

I've only highlighted him as he was on the radio this morning. Fine Gael are the same but marginally more honest in my opinion as they do seem to tell people how snookered we are. I'm not going to comment on Sinn Fein, I do think they are honest (but sometimes I think they live on a different planet to me.) in that they are left and we can see it as that.

The argument of whether we are left or right will not be decided by the electorate, labour and fine gael are headed for a deal the outcome of which we'll not know until the election is over. So we the electorate will only have a very minor minor role in any policies that the future government decide to embark upon. Democracy?????

The outcome is no better than what we have just had, constant turmoil between two parties seeking to appease diametrically opposing political ideologies in their support base.

A fudge is what we will get, and the leaders of both main contenders know this but repeatedly get on the airwaves and try and make us believe that it is not the case.

All at a time when we are broke....

Its funny that you paint a picture of diametrically opposed political entities that could only create havok (when as you rightly pointed out we need solid government.)
This is a falacy, both parties are closer to the centre than ever, closer to each other than in their history.... Maybe a broad range of views politically is what we need to get us through this period of madness. As you rightly pointed out both the left and the right have their crazies but generally the centrist members of each organisation are solid dependable people.

For a while I have been of the opinion that FG are all wrong for Labour but lately after a period of reflection I really do think that now is as good a time for them to get into bed with each other. It may be the only real hope for our country because as you also quite rightly pointed out SF are a non runner, their crazy economic plan is crazy FF current crop have shown themselves to be proabably the worst government in IE history and voting independents only gives a gombeen narrow minded political force too much power (see healy rea,lowry etc)

To summarise I think the only real way forward is a bastardisation of FG and labours political beliefs......

femur61

nickobrien1985 wrote: »

What the left want:

- Higher taxes on the rich, i.e those who create wealth and jobs, and those who can hide their monies.

- Child benefit for all

- Higher dole rates

- Higher minimum wages

- More spending on the inefficient public sector.


Are they plain thick or just plain ignorant?

Do have to agree with him on this one. The rich should pay more taxes but they are able to create jobs as well because they have money, catch 22.

rumour

meditraitor wrote: »

Its funny that you paint a picture of diametrically opposed political entities that could only create havok (when as you rightly pointed out we need solid government.)
This is a falacy, both parties are closer to the centre than ever, closer to each other than in their history.... Maybe a broad range of views politically is what we need to get us through this period of madness. As you rightly pointed out both the left and the right have their crazies but generally the centrist members of each organisation are solid dependable people.

For a while I have been of the opinion that FG are all wrong for Labour but lately after a period of reflection I really do think that now is as good a time for them to get into bed with each other. It may be the only real hope for our country because as you also quite rightly pointed out SF are a non runner, their crazy economic plan is crazy FF current crop have shown themselves to be proabably the worst government in IE history and voting independents only gives a gombeen narrow minded political force too much power (see healy rea,lowry etc)

To summarise I think the only real way forward is a bastardisation of FG and labours political beliefs......

Thanks for the reply and i agree a bastardisation is coming our way. I am however thouroughly disappointed that we now have no option but to accept this in this election. Why do we have to accept this? Is it because our politicians have no back bone to stand by their beliefs...or is it because we the electorate accept this outcome.
Contrast this with the people and leaders at the founding of this state. They were prepared to die for their beliefs. That level of sacrifice inspires people. Not even a fraction of that belief is evident from any political entity we now have. So I am inclined to believe that itis the fault ofour politicians who seem more interested in power their salaries and their pensions than anything else.

Not one party has seen fit to propose a reduction in TD's salaries or pensions benefits whilethey all agree quietly that taxes shouldbe increased on every citizen in the country to ensure they are among if not the highest paid politicians in europe. Am I the only one that considers this important?

If they cannot sort out their own house how the hell willthey sort out the country.

ei.sdraob

rumour wrote: »

Thanks for the reply and i agree a bastardisation is coming our way. I am however thouroughly disappointed that we now have no option but to accept this in this election. Why do we have to accept this? Is it because our politicians have no back bone to stand by their beliefs...or is it because we the electorate accept this outcome.
Contrast this with the people and leaders at the founding of this state. They were prepared to die for their beliefs. That level of sacrifice inspires people. Not even a fraction of that belief is evident from any political entity we now have. So I am inclined to believe that itis the fault ofour politicians who seem more interested in power their salaries and their pensions than anything else.

Not one party has seen fit to propose a reduction in TD's salaries or pensions benefits whilethey all agree quietly that taxes shouldbe increased on every citizen in the country to ensure they are among if not the highest paid politicians in europe. Am I the only one that considers this important?

If they cannot sort out their own house how the hell willthey sort out the country.

I think its much worse than that

Get this the IMF are running the country,
a year ago this would have been the unthinkable worst case scenario,
me and others on this forum thought that IMF arrival would cause a shift in Irish politics once they politicians and the people realise the scale of what has occurred.


But we are back to the same petty politics as before only a month later, maybe the old saying is correct, we get the government we deserve

meditraitor

rumour wrote: »

Not one party has seen fit to propose a reduction in TD's salaries or pensions benefits whilethey all agree quietly that taxes shouldbe increased on every citizen in the country to ensure they are among if not the highest paid politicians in europe. Am I the only one that considers this important?

If they cannot sort out their own house how the hell willthey sort out the country.

A good point,

20Cent

Would the op care to mention what he/she means by "the left" and which parties are advocating the policies mentioned?

This left right thing is just a lazy way debating all parties have policies which could be called either. Much easier to just shout leftist and then mumble about how they all want gulags etc like Glenn Beck than to discuss the actual issues.

Also why are things talked about in absolutes? Like its default everything or no default. How about the myriad of options in between those two positions.

whiteonion

nickobrien1985 wrote: »

What the left want:

- Higher taxes on the rich, i.e those who create wealth and jobs, and those who can hide their monies.

- Child benefit for all

- Higher dole rates

- Higher minimum wages

- More spending on the inefficient public sector.


Are they plain thick or just plain ignorant?

Are our current batch of centre-right rulers plain thick, plain ignorant of plain corrupt?

later12

20Cent wrote: »

Also why are things talked about in absolutes? Like its default everything or no default. How about the myriad of options in between those two positions.

I agree with this. Most people who are suggesting that Ireland just get on with it and pay everything back probably know as little about macroeconomics or financial markets as those who are advocating a default. I would also be very cautious about posters alleging ignorance or people being 'thick' as the OP and others so eloquently put it.

The most likely outcome is very much something in between, neither an outright default nor an outright discharge of all of the state's present financial commitments.
This goes for all of the peripherals who already did, or are likely to, require a bailout based on private debt. Particularly so, Spain and Ireland, but also Greece to an extent.

Personally, to use a broad term, I would consider myself on the right. But like I said there are many on the left whose breadth of academic knowledge and the magnitude of whose economic and financial acumen I greatly admire. To scoff at 'the left' as thick and ignorant is hardly in itself the most intelligent or judicious of criticisms.

Permabear

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later12

Permabear wrote: »

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Morgan Kelly right wing? Hmm, I think we are blurring the line slightly here. I wonder if someone, perhaps any UCD student reading this, who ever sat through his diatribes on taxation and macroeconomics would agree with that.

If one family defaults on its mortgage, they are pariahs: if 200,000 default they are a powerful political constituency. There is no shame in admitting that you too were mauled by the Celtic Tiger after being conned into taking out an unaffordable mortgage, when everyone around you is admitting the same.

That, i'm sorry, is something right out of The Socialist

, and who speak openly about the deep fiscal restructuring that simply must happen.

Fiscal restructuring? Fiscal restructuring?

The left has spent two and a half years tap-dancing around the unpalatable realities highlighted by the likes of Kelly and Gurdgiev. They don't want cuts to public spending (especially public wages and welfare). They don't want the banks bailed out. They don't want NAMA. They don't want the IMF loans. What do they want? Vague, nebulous things such as "fairness" and "equality" and "protecting the vulnerable." But unless you actually have a feasible plan for how the State can meet all of its manifold commitments without inexorably going bankrupt, there's no point in warbling on endlessly in this vacuous manner.

I agree but I know many people living and working in ireland or engaged in academia who i would describe as left-minded individuals who don't exactly fit the bill of the individuals described above. My point is that's it is an overly simplistic forumulation. I'm not a leftie myself, and I think it is the side upon which the more uninformed feel comfortable, but personally I have to say I have probably seen just as many truly uninformed arguments on boards as to why default is not an option on the 'right'.

When one sees an individual throwing about accusations of 'thick and ignorant', and others amassing similarly around that position, it's usually time to question the actual wisdom of the individuals offering such criticism themselves, in my experience.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

later12

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Fiscal restructuring?

You sure you don't mean restructuring of the senior debt that banks discharge?

You know many people living and working in Ireland (good for you—at this stage I probably know more people living and not working in Ireland) who you would describe as on the left, but they don't exactly fit the bill, and you're not a leftie yourself, but you have seen uninformed arguments on Boards.ie (no way, dude—really?)... So ... so what? What's your point?

That not all of those on the left are the anti NAMA anti IMF anti everything loons that you seem to suggest. I don't really sympathise with their beliefs or how they view society and responsibilities, but it must be said that there are a great many respected academics and politicians who may be inclined towards the left but who can hardly be described as 'thick and ignorant'.

micro_dot

to be right-wing, apparently, you have to think with the prehistoric fear centre of the brain, the amygdala, which helps explain how emotion is displayed as fact in the likes of the Daily Mail, Fox and other Murdoch media, Tea Party as a sample.

Can I point out the obvious, that the PD fairly conservative input into policy, such as low regulation, skewed tax base towards property has led to just about the worst crisis this country has ever seen, so that two and a half years ago, nobody saw the brick wall coming?

Permabear

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Count Dooku

micro_dot wrote: »

to be right-wing, apparently, you have to think with the prehistoric fear centre of the brain, the amygdala, which helps explain how emotion is displayed as fact in the likes of the Daily Mail, Fox and other Murdoch media, Tea Party as a sample.

Can I point out the obvious, that the PD fairly conservative input into policy, such as low regulation, skewed tax base towards property has led to just about the worst crisis this country has ever seen, so that two and a half years ago, nobody saw the brick wall coming?

problem with PDs that they tried to implement proper right wing policies together with FF left wing populism, such as increased welfare benefits and huge PS payroll bill

later12

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

You sure? I haven't heard anyone that I would take very seriously suggest that fiscal debt be restructured but perhaps you have been reading the aforementioned Socialist, ok, whatever.

cleremy jarkson

I'd vote Fianna Fail before I'd vote Labour or Sinn Fein, and believe me I'm not particularly fond of Fianna Fail! Apart from the fact that it would be a disaster for us all, it would be interesting to see how a labour/sinn fein government would handle the economic crisis. I don't think such a government is as unlikely as I'd like it to be!

micro_dot

Count Dooku wrote: »

problem with PDs that they tried to implement proper right wing policies together with FF left wing populism, such as increased welfare benefits and huge PS payroll bill

Huge payroll bill, yes.
Proper rightwing policies meant skewing tax towards property purchase though, and a faulty Darwinism where there was no regulation to police the banking industry. It was supposed to right itself, but got bailed out massively instead. And that's the thing, police the minor things like burglary but not the major things like impossibly imbalanced banking balance sheets. We never realised the Financial Regulator didn't understand more than APR either.

Re social welfare, I have a problem with how people have to deserve being poor. The Victorians had a term for it, 'deserving poor', implying most people deserved being poor. Maybe I confuse rightwing financial policy with rightwing press, but emotion is completely tied up with fact to create rightwing policy. Thankfully, most people are in between. Hopefully.

Permabear

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Spudmonkey

ardmacha wrote: »

Perhaps they propose more spending on the efficient public sector.

Pray tell??

Spudmonkey

Permabear wrote: »

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They in effect want everything and want nothing at the same time. Mary Lou all but denouced all the other parties the other evening, stating that even Labours policies were too harsh on the vulnerable in society. It's after this that makes me think that they have no interest in power at all. All they are interested is shouting from the sideline about how shit a job the incumbant crowd are doing.

No thanks. I've no interest in empty populous rhetoric.

Count Dooku

micro_dot wrote: »

Huge payroll bill, yes.
Proper rightwing policies meant skewing tax towards property purchase though, and a faulty Darwinism where there was no regulation to police the banking industry.

Darwinism is about evolution and growth, while left wing policies are mostly driving to stagnation

micro_dot wrote: »

Re social welfare, I have a problem with how people have to deserve being poor.

Main idea of right wing is to remove barriers to be rich and to to reward lazyness
If everybody will become rich, then it will be no poor, except those who deserves it

later12

Permabear wrote: »

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Fair enough, I assumed you were using the word restructuring in the same economic sense that I have been referring to as opposed to the common dictionary term. It's pretty fair to say that if you walked into a room of financial professionals and advocated fiscal restructuring where someone had been speaking in terms of debt, you would raise some considerable number of eyebrows.

My point is in relation to the left in general or anyone whose economic philosophy is generally inclined to be left leaning. If you say you are arguing something else, or about another group of people, then i just wonder what exactly you are disagreeing with in regard to what I have written.

johnnyskeleton

nickobrien1985 wrote: »

What the left want:

- Higher minimum wages

Seems FG, the "right wing" party, want the same thing:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/elections/minimum-wage-cut-will-be-reversed-fg-2515931.html

ei.sdraob

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Seems FG, the "right wing" party, want the same thing:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/elections/minimum-wage-cut-will-be-reversed-fg-2515931.html

Finance spokesman Michael Noonan told reporters in Brussels yesterday that the move would have no bearing on the Government's Budget targets.

"There is no fiscal implication because it's the employer that's paying it," he said.

no fiscal implications

femur61

If minimum wage is higher it will dirve more people out of business samll business like your local deli, coffee shop because talkimg to those people they are just getting by, barely. Especially, when people paid over the odds prices for businesses a couple of years ago and now they are suffering. Last night in a pub where the owner is under such pressure and if he had to pay staff more he would probally have to let some go thus not only closing down his business but the people who work there would loose a job, the drinks company would loose a customer etc.

Dannyboy83

Agree the minimum wage should come down, but ONLY if everything else is coming down with it, that's not happening - most notably in the state sector, insurance, fuel, but in plenty of other areas also - which is probably the least desirable scenario.
Why?

Don't forget that when the minimum wage goes down, those people also have less money to spend e.g. no morning paper, no cup of coffee, no sandwich at lunch, no pint at the weekend.
It would be naieve to think this isn't going to have an impact on the very same businesses who are supposed to benefit by paying a lower minimum wage.

What should happen is:
rates should drop
electricity should drop
rents should drop
then minimum wage should follow.

Doing it arseways exacerbates the problem

ei.sdraob

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Agree the minimum wage should come down, but ONLY if everything else is coming down with it, that's not happening - most notably in the state sector, insurance, fuel, but in plenty of other areas also - which is probably the least desirable scenario.
Why?

Don't forget that when the minimum wage goes down, those people also have less money to spend e.g. no morning paper, no cup of coffee, no sandwich at lunch, no pint at the weekend.
It would be naieve to think this isn't going to have an impact on the very same businesses who are supposed to benefit by paying a lower minimum wage.

What should happen is:
rates should drop
electricity should drop
rents should drop
then minimum wage should follow.

Doing it arseways exacerbates the problem

Agree but all of those sectors are heavily unionised, not going to happen, especially under Labour...