Luminous and delightful.

mariaalice

Some times I can be a little inarticulate when making my point so bear with me a bit.

This is to do with an piece written by Brenda Power in the Sunday Times. I am not fan of hers and don't normally read her stuff, but this caught me eye.

In the normal run of things unless your are famous or something tragic happens to you very few people get a view of your life.

Her piece was about Michaela McArevey life and her basic premise was the sort of life Michaela has was the very hight of fulfillment for a women........ a life revolving around getting married, family, GAA, the church, the local parish.

When reading about Michaela's what struck me was how out of kilter her life was with the Ireland of today as i see it for women, but talking to someone about this she said to me its the urban rural divide and in rural Ireland the life Michaela lived is common and unremarkable i.e marring young, building a house being involved in the GAA and the parish etc.

So do you thing there is big divide between urban and rural lives for women.

panda100

Interesting question and something I also thought about over the last few weeks. There does seem to be a huge admiration out there for women living a more traditional way of life.

I don't know if its an urban/rural divide or more of a traditional/modernisation struggle.I grew up in the city and my parents were still very traditional. They had a life mapped out for their daughters, and it does seem like Michaela Harte's life was a perfect template for the traditional style of life they wanted for us.

I can only speak for myself but it's most difficult when you are caught between the two. On the one hand you want to live your own life, but on the other hand the pressure is still very much there to get married,build a house,have a family etc. I think the traditional way of life is grand If things work out for you,but If you don't meet someone and don't get married your fecked!

Posy

In the case of Michaela though, she wasn't that young marrying, she was 27 I believe which isn't terribly out of the norm.
Although, I am from Dublin and 27 and only one of my friends is married- the rest are very career focused and would have a heart-attack if you suggested settling down, so maybe it is an urban/rural divide thing..

Acoshla

As mentioned 27 isn't that young to be getting married? In Michaela's case I would say it's more to do with her own family's values than a rural/urban divide, her family are meant to be very religious and very close, so getting married and being involved in the local parish would be a big part of that I would have thought.

I'm originally from a small village, moved to a large town where I grew up, and have friends from rural and urban areas, and I can honestly see no obvious divide based on the area they grew up in. I have friends from both sides that are married with kids and have built the house etc, many of them have done that now (I'm 25), many did it younger, and then there are just as many who are single, single with a kid, living with boyfriend and kid, or engaged at the moment. Some are travelling the world, others are career focussed, others have never worked due to raising kids, but I honestly don't think where they were raised influenced this.

The only differences I've seen are:

Girls from the town I grew up in have a much higher proportion of teenage mothers than any other place I have lived (1 village, 2 rural towns, 2 Irish cities, 1 North American city)

And the GAA thing is definitely a BIG thing rurally, but then I am from a county where it is revered so maybe it's not really as big a deal in other counties, I just grew up surrounded by it and never had an ounce of interest in it.

seenitall

mariaalice wrote: »

Some times I can be a little inarticulate when making my point so bear with me a bit.

This is to do with an piece written by Brenda Power in the Sunday Times. I am not fan of hers and don't normally read her stuff, but this caught me eye.

In the normal run of things unless your are famous or something tragic happens to you very few people get a view of your life.

Her piece was about Michaela McArevey life and her basic premise was the sort of life Michaela has was the very hight of fulfillment for a women........ a life revolving around getting married, family, GAA, the church, the local parish.

When reading about Michaela's what struck me was how out of kilter her life was with the Ireland of today as i see it for women, but talking to someone about this she said to me its the urban rural divide and in rural Ireland the life Michaela lived is common and unremarkable i.e marring young, building a house being involved in the GAA and the parish etc.

So do you thing there is big divide between urban and rural lives for women.

No. I think the kind of issue you are referring to shows up the divide between rich and poor, tbh.

She was from the kind of background where you don't only inherit money from your parents, before that you also inherit social connections, which means more money at the end of the day.

She was honeymooning in Mauritius. If that is common and unremarkable, then I am certainly moving in some very uncommon and remarkable circles!

Perhaps I am being horribly cynical, but I don't think a pretty girl from either the north side of Dublin (urban), or Feeney's shoe-shop in Swinford (rural), would be described as "luminous and delightful", her charmed life written about in Sunday Times, etc, etc. The power of greenbacks, ftw.

Corkblowin

seenitall wrote: »

No. I think the kind of issue you are referring to shows up the divide between rich and poor, tbh.

I don't see where that comes from at all!!

They were in Mauritius on honeymoon.....if you don't splash out on that then when will you?

I'm certainly not wealthy, but took a loan to pay for a honeymoon in Hawaii because it was more than a holiday. Unfortunately in my case the term of the loan lasted longer than the marriage!!

I do think you are being cynical.....she was a teacher, married to a GAA star, father who is one of the most important men in the GAA, a former Rose of Tralee.......this is why she has been written about....not cash.

um7y1h83ge06nx

There is a definite difference I think regarding what is "expected" of a young person in rural and urban communities. I think this is maybe what you're getting at.

A bit of background. I grew up in a rural area, am 27 and spent the last 10 years almost in Limerick since I started college.

There is much greater pressure in rural communities to ""grow up" and settle down. For instance, just after X-mas I attended an engagement party of two 23 year olds back home. There were discussing building a house etc.

I wouldn't describe that life as "unremarkable", but definitely pretty "common" from where I'm from.

Sometimes I actually feel like an old man back home, so many guys my age are married, have families etc. In Limerick I definitely feel younger, strange as that may sound.

seenitall

How many people in this country can afford to even take out a loan to go to Hawaii or Seychelles? I am sure there are a fair amount, but I am also fairly certain they are far outnumbered by people trying to hold a roof over their heads while being tied in with negative equity or their wages are being slashed, their hours cut, etc. Irrespective of rural or urban living.

panda100

Ramiro Panicky Shin wrote: »

There is a definite difference I think regarding what is "expected" of a young person in rural and urban communities. I think this is maybe what you're getting at.

A bit of background. I grew up in a rural area, am 27 and spent the last 10 years almost in Limerick since I started college.

There is much greater pressure in rural communities to ""grow up" and settle down. For instance, just after X-mas I attended an engagement party of two 23 year olds back home. There were discussing building a house etc.

I wouldn't describe that life as "unremarkable", but definitely pretty "common" from where I'm from.

Sometimes I actually feel like an old man back home, so many guys my age are married, have families etc. In Limerick I definitely feel younger, strange as that may sound.

I know exactly what you mean!

I was feel very immature when I meet my country cousins from Longford and Limerick. They are all early twenties and talk about babies, family members , weddings ,building houses . The majority of my cousins are also teachers, so there seems to be a bit of a correlation going on there.

Most of my friends in Dublin would be atheist, single and no intention of building houses or having babies. Its one of the reasons I don't like meeting extended family members from the country that often because my life goals and achievements are so different to theirs. I don't hold finding a husband and having a family in such high esteem so it sort of alienates me from that traditional lifestyle that is still so prevalent in rural Ireland.

I think what is interesting is perhaps how in the media the traditional way of life for a women is still held up as the ideal.

Wibbs

seenitall wrote: »

You wouldn't say these things are connected to, ahem, material comfort, in any way?

This is GAAAAA we're talking about, not premier league soccer. It's not posh and becks gucci handbags here.

Also, how many people in this country can afford to even take out a loan to go to Hawaii or Seychelles? I am sure there are a fair amount, but I am also fairly certain they are far outnumbered by people trying to hold a roof over their heads while being tied in with negative equity or their wages are being slashed, their hours cut, etc. Irrespective of rural or urban living.

Nowadays yes there would be less of that, but up until quite recently honeymoon destinations in the more exotic areas of the world were pretty mundane for all classes. Crazily in hock so as it turned out.

I think the tragedy had resonance for all sorts of reasons. Numero uno, well it was bloody tragic. Secondly while she was a rose of tralee, tarted up dolly bird she was not. Ordinary enough girl next door. She would seem relevant to many people, in a way the aforementioned posh spice wouldn't. She was pretty, but not pretty enough to be an unsympathetic person. She'd have the large element of "that could be my daughter/wife/sister". The GAA connection which is still a very big deal in certain rural quarters would be a huge part of it. She was well known through her dad and her own stuff and then marries a GAA player. Perfect rural storm right there(for some) The "oh god, if she had been but a minute early/late she's still be alive" bs. Even the murder in an exotic clime by the "natives" would trigger a prurient interest in some. Even the last gasp of the Celtic tiger may well be a part of it. But still the biggest reason is cos it was bloody tragic.

seenitall

Wibbs wrote: »

This is GAAAAA we're talking about, not premier league soccer. It's not posh and becks gucci handbags here.
Nowadays yes there would be less of that, but up until quite recently honeymoon destinations in the more exotic areas of the world were pretty mundane for all classes. Crazily in hock so as it turned out.

I think the tragedy had resonance for all sorts of reasons. Numero uno, well it was bloody tragic. Secondly while she was a rose of tralee, tarted up dolly bird she was not. Ordinary enough girl next door. She would seem relevant to many people, in a way the aforementioned posh spice wouldn't. She was pretty, but not pretty enough to be an unsympathetic person. She'd have the large element of "that could be my daughter/wife/sister". The GAA connection which is still a very big deal in certain rural quarters would be a huge part of it. She was well known through her dad and her own stuff and then marries a GAA player. Perfect rural storm right there(for some) The "oh god, if she had been but a minute early/late she's still be alive" bs. Even the murder in an exotic clime by the "natives" would trigger a prurient interest in some. Even the last gasp of the Celtic tiger may well be a part of it. But still the biggest reason is cos it was bloody tragic.

I amended my earlier argument because thinking on it, it was somewhat crass of me to be talking about how much money her family may or may not have. I know they are not Posh and Becks. My point was that high social standing of a family in a traditional setting will bring the right social connections, which will lead to material rewards more often than not, but yes, probably it was too cynical of me to go straight for the money connection. The big media coverage being in part attributable to the family's high standing in the community speaks for itself, without the need to mention money.

I'm still not convinced on working class people ever having honeymooned in Maldives in any great numbers, though, (the ones I know haven't, at all at all) but you probably know many more Irish people than I do, so...

To get back to the media (and my earlier argument), I really think that there is an ever-so-subtle, aspirational class thing going on here, although I am starting to feel a bit uncomfortable in case I say anything sensitive about a tragedy such as this. I think it is more the case of holding the poor girl up as a beacon of a privileged, traditional, "perfect", beatific womanhood (the perfect storm you mentioned), than the case of "It could have been my daughter".

mariaalice

My original point was to do with the promotional of traditional values for women ( family and community values ) and traditional careers women ( teaching ) as source of contentment for women and the promotion of those values as being more worthy that any other choice a woman could make in Ireland.

Giselle

mariaalice wrote: »

My original point was to do with the promotional of traditional values for women ( family and community values ) and traditional careers women ( teaching ) as source of contentment for women and the promotion of those values as being more worthy that any other choice a woman could make in Ireland.

My parents were pretty traditional, despite both of them having quite high profile careers. I was definitely steered (I didn't take to the steerage) towards a career that maybe I could reduce to part-time if I had a family, and 'settling down' was defintely promoted to me as a big thing.

I think its more to do with my parents wanting me to be supported (not financially) by someone who cares about me, rather than a rush to be grandparents, and the career advice was prompted by my mother feeling that it was unnecessary pressure on me to feel I had it all, if that meant I'd be doing it all.

I think they wanted me to find contentment more than material success, which isn't a bad thing to want for your daughter.

Sibylla

There does appear to be an urban/rural divide in terms of expectations and priorities. In this instance I feel the massive public reaction has nothing to do with Michaela being a teacher, connected to the GAA. Whatever career she may have had or whoever she was married too it's a tragedy. People are reacting to the idea that a woman could be murdered on her honeymoon in such horrific circumstances.

Catari Jaguar

The media did portray her as the ideal Irish cailín - Daddy's girl, GAA lass, Rose of Tralee, múinteoir of the oul Gaeilge, settled down young on a bit of sod, married a strapping local fella in a nice church ceremony...

Poles apart from my life.

Giselle

cherub rock wrote: »

The media did portray her as the ideal Irish cailín - Daddy's girl, GAA lass, Rose of Tralee, múinteoir of the oul Gaeilge, settled down young on a bit of sod, married a strapping local fella in a nice church ceremony...

Poles apart from my life.

It still sounds like a good life though, even if its not one you'd particularly want for yourself. And she just seems to be thought of as a really lovely person.

I agree with Sybilla though, its just the whole tragedy of having her life stolen from her when it was just beginning. Thats whats really heartbreaking about it.

Is 27 really that young to get married though?

Dudess

Yeah, the girl next door to me growing up met her now fiancé at 18 (she's nearly 27), qualified as a teacher at 21, and got a permanent teaching job at 22 in the primary school she went to herself. Wouldn't be for me, but that doesn't mean I don't see appealing aspects to it.

As for 27 being a young age to marry - I think it is nowadays, in the sense of being unusual (not saying there's anything wrong with it). But maybe it's only unusual among the circles I move within.

Lynnsie

Slightly off topic but I know a lot of teachers who settled down or married quite young.I think part of it might be that they qualify relatively quickly so are often finished college and working by 21/22, and often working with older colleagues. By 25/26 they are well established in their careers and can be quite mature when some others are still finding their feet after college.

I've lived in cities for years after being brought up in a more rural area and I haven't noticed a huge difference. I know people from both urban and rural areas who married young and also know plenty from both who would be late 20s/30s and have no intention of settling down. I think it's down to personal preference as opposed to location really.

With Micheala Harte it was seen as more "newsworthy" because she was from a well known family but even if she hadn't been, it was a sad sad story and there would have been a lot of publicity.

LegacyUser

I find it appallingly sad that she had returned to her hotel room (where she was then murdered) after dinner to get... her diet biscuits.
On her honeymoon, she was more concerned with her diet, than with kicking back& having a few drinks with her new husband.
Also, she and her OH never lived together before getting married, despite having the house built& ready to move in to. Makes you think, what was it all for? Life's short, we should grab every second.

RoisinDove

I think Michaela was just a typical rural girl like most people from her area. I'm from up near there myself and 27 most definitely isn't young to marry around there - most of my school friends were married at 22-25 and the rest are planning to marry in the next year or so. It really is a huge thing there - people keep asking me when I'll be tying the knot and I'm not even 27 yet. Buying (or more commonly, building) a house in your twenties is the norm, going somewhere exotic on your honeymoon is the norm, having a nice solid job like teaching or becoming a civil servant is the norm. I think that's why so many people felt a connection to Michaela - she really was a typical Tyrone girl living the same lifestyle as most people there. The money/connections thing isn't even that unusual, a lot of people have a serious amount of money around there, they're just not flashy about it (and Michaela wasn't, either). Sorry if I'm pointing out the obvious but Tyrone is in Northern Ireland and a lot of the Celtic Tiger/crisis stuff doesn't really apply. Things aren't as dramatically different there now than they were back then compared to Dublin, for example.

Dublin is like a different world, many of my friends there don't have boyfriends or are just casually dating, social life revolves around clubbing, eating out, buying clothes and shoes, a lot of people are into travelling/backpacking and there is just no expectation at all to settle down until at least 30 and even then, the pressue isn't really on. I don't think one is worse than the other, but the difference in priorities is enormous.

Anyway, I think the 'it could have been my daughter' thing does apply here. I know people who knew Michaela, as do most people from Tyrone and around it. She really wasn't any different to most people.