N4 - Downs Grade Separation

Amtmann

Cionád wrote: »

It appears to be going ahead...

"A total of €867 million will be invested in the National Roads Programme this year, Minister for Transport Pat Carey confirmed today.

This compares with a €1.115 billion investment in the programme last year.

Schemes starting this year include the Belturbet, Longford and Tralee by-passes and the Cork Southern Ring Road Interchanges.

Also scheduled to get under way are new projects covering the N7/N11 at Arklow, Rathnew and Newland Cross, the M17/18 Gort to Tuam, the N87 Ballyconnell Relief Road and the N4 Downs Grade separation."


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0124/breaking52.html

This is surprising, isn't it?

L1011

The Ballyconnell one I've also not seen mentioned before

The Downs can't actually be that expensive - it involves one interchange, a few bits of frontage and sealing the median. I don't even think its a full overlay, cause having no H/S on DC's on the N4 is clearly acceptable now...

edit: I'd also assume it was CPOed an absolute age ago?

road_high

That's 9 seperate new projects to start this year. That's not bad going considering there were no new starts in 2010. Hope they all come to pass.

JupiterKid

Could a certain Mr Donie Cassidy have something to do with this scheme being announced/bumped forward I wonder?

L1011

JupiterKid wrote: »

Could a certain Mr Donie Cassidy have something to do with this scheme being announced/bumped forward I wonder?

1: Is he even standing again?
2: He's a senator, e.g. powerless.

Tech3

I cant see this project costing too much but again maybe funds should be collected together to build one of the major schemes instead of upgrading some good quality sections of road like this.

Instead of upgrading this and building the Tralee bypass go and look at the more dangerous sections of national routes such as the N17, N5, and N24 for starters. I have my doubts now over the M17/M18 as the contract was originally meant to be signed last year has not been signed this month so far. Minor projects like this one dont benefit as much as the ones I have mentioned above.

Roryhy

Have to say i hadn't heard mention of this scheme until a few days ago so did some digging-
"The N4 The Downs dual carriageway was constructed in 1999 - 2001 to the then "reduced dual carriageway" standard. It has nine at-grade junctions with median openings. It is proposed to close all of the nine median openings on the Downs scheme and provide one grade-separated junction to accommodate a junction with the Regional Road R156." NRA site.

Pete_Cavan

http://www.etenders.gov.ie/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=JAN196055

Just a Prior Information Notice for now, didnt think it would be a D&B contract though.

roadmaster

Hi all, first time to post,

i was on the N4 outside mullingar yesterday and wondered would the following changes be possable to allow the M4 be extended from mary lynchs to the castlepollard exit.

1. Esso service stations change the exit and entry layouts to allow traffic enter and exit to motoway standard. for westbound traffic new system could be layed out similar to the one at the spa hotel with bollards hence directing traffic up the sliproad to the park hotel and back down the west ramp. or bring the traffic westbound from esso on to the old N4
2. Again at the road house change the exit and entry to allow safe access
3. seal the Local road a couple 100 meters up the road completelly allowing no exit on to the N4
4. The coarlstown exit is where i see the only major work as the road and embankment will have to be wided so the turn will not be so sharp, as it is at the moment it is very dangerous i have seen many cars nearly run up the back of each other there and also no traffic will be allowed to enter the Motorway at that location

SeanW

roadmaster wrote: »

Hi all, first time to post,

i was on the N4 outside mullingar yesterday and wondered would the following changes be possable to allow the M4 be extended from mary lynchs to the castlepollard exit.

1. Esso service stations change the exit and entry layouts to allow traffic enter and exit to motoway standard. for westbound traffic new system could be layed out similar to the one at the spa hotel with bollards hence directing traffic up the sliproad to the park hotel and back down the west ramp. or bring the traffic westbound from esso on to the old N4
2. Again at the road house change the exit and entry to allow safe access
3. seal the Local road a couple 100 meters up the road completelly allowing no exit on to the N4
4. The coarlstown exit is where i see the only major work as the road and embankment will have to be wided so the turn will not be so sharp, as it is at the moment it is very dangerous i have seen many cars nearly run up the back of each other there and also no traffic will be allowed to enter the Motorway at that location

I agree, I would like to see Motorway all the way to Mullingar (preferably Longford but that's another issue) but there are a few flaws in your analysis. First I'll bring you up to speed on points not raised, then go through your list.

A Motorway in Ireland, legally MUST have an alternate route, normally a R-road, for most of the M4, this is the R148 - generally this is the "old N(whatever)" road although strictly speaking it doesn't have to be. Much of the old road alignment was demolished or reused to allow the then new dual carriageway through without the need for a new alignment, bridges etc. A new R148 would have to be declared and this might mean rehabilitating, rebuilding or even a new build in parts.
Motoways also generally have hard shoulders, the Downs DC has none.

1) Not only could the Esso stations be declared MSAs and more or less left as-is, but the arrangement you see on the outbound N4 (emphasis on N4) in Lucan is that appropriate to an urban dual carriageway. It would be highly irregular to have such a layout on a Motorway.
2) Agree but it would need a grade separated junction or at minimum a LILO junction. None of that separated lane/plastic bollards stuff that you see on the N4 in Dublin or the Naas dual carriageway.
3) Agree
4) Agree, that curve is ridiculous. Thing to remember though is that what is now the M4 between J12 and J13 was built as a High Quality Dual Carriageway, presumably cheap-it-out shortcuts like the curve there - not to mention the Compact GSJ layout of the junction itself, was an acceptable irregularity for a dual carriageway.

L1011

There's a Lidl at the Westbound Esso, lads. Can't suddenly make them MSAs with that there.

JupiterKid

No, I would be very against redesignating the Mullingar Bypass as motorway. There's no alternate route and secondly as I've opined before, there is more than enough motorway already now in Ireland (excepting the M20 which has yet to start construction).

roadmaster

yes i agree the one big mistake i made was not allowing for an alternate route.Can anyone tell me what is the max distance this route can be from the orginal road?.

1. The HS problem can be sorted easy enoght i think as there would be just enoght room to put in 2.5 meters each side

2. The Lidil entrance is of the old N4 and could easly be sealed where the barrier is between esso and them

3. One other question could anyone see the need for a roundabout at the castlepollard exit westbound as it can be hard enoght to get out here to?

ardmacha

No, I would be very against redesignating the Mullingar Bypass as motorway. There's no alternate route

There may be pros or cons to redesignation, but of course there is an alternative route, it is a bypass which by definition provides an alternative to an existing route.

serfboard

Tremelo wrote: »

This is surprising, isn't it?

This is not surprising at all, IMO. This is just hot air from the outgoing government who will be in no position to implement it.

When the next crowd gets in they will look at all these again. Allocating 900 million for roads will be very hard to justify - and when they don't, FF will prattle on about how "we were going to do that".

I'd agree with the previous poster about political pressuring for the N4, although I'd say it's more likely Mary O'Rourke had an involvment here. Similarly for the Jackie-Healy Rae Tralee bypass promise, in order to get him to vote for the budget.

Not saying these things don't need doing eventually, but we all know there are far more important priorities.

SeanW

MYOB wrote: »

There's a Lidl at the Westbound Esso, lads. Can't suddenly make them MSAs with that there.

I just had a look on Google Maps and it seems that the Lidl, and a couple of shed/businesses, are only accessible from that Esso junction. But since the old Dublin Road is just behind the lot - and we're well into the realm of "crayon"ism, it wouldn't take much to separate the Esso from the other things there and build a link road between the old Dublin road and those businesses.

JupiterKid wrote: »

No, I would be very against redesignating the Mullingar Bypass as motorway. There's no alternate route and secondly as I've opined before, there is more than enough motorway already now in Ireland (excepting the M20 which has yet to start construction).

Agree the M20 is probably a priority, even though I've never been down there it does, from what I've read, sound like a sensible priority.

However, "There's more than enough motorway" is a very subjective statement, to say the least, I could respond by saying I like motorways, e.g. "It's hard to have too much of a good thing" and point to Northern Ireland where they seem to have an irrational distaste for them in the last 20-30 years - note all the dual carriageway construction that has occurred there in recent years including the (what I think is ridiculous) N1-A1 setup on the Dublin-Belfast road at the border.

As has also been alluded to, the fact that the Mullingar Bypass is a bypass means by definition that there is already an alternative road (the old road) the only problem is the Downs dual carriageway which demolished/widened the old road, and for which an alternative would need to be (re)built.

Finally, I would ask you, if you object so strongly to further Motorways on the N4 - do you use the N4 much? At all?

roadmaster

Wcc have a planning notice in the westmeath examiner today to upgrade the DC to Type one with a over lay and new concrete barrier in the central reserve along with hard sholulders, they also say they are constructing a pedestrtian bridge at the l1601/50242, is this part of the Interchange works or a new contract?

L1011

Sounds like an addon to it, as far I know the interchange/median sealing works were not going to upgrade the road to Type 1 DC. That upgrade will require quite a bit of work, as there's little to no H/S along the existing road, and I'd also be concerned about how close the westbound carriageway is to the canal at times!

spacetweek

MYOB wrote: »

Sounds like an addon to it, as far I know the interchange/median sealing works were not going to upgrade the road to Type 1 DC. That upgrade will require quite a bit of work, as there's little to no H/S along the existing road, and I'd also be concerned about how close the westbound carriageway is to the canal at times!

Yes I think the M6/M4 gore to the start of Mullingar Bypass is way below spec so it's unlikely it'll end up Type 1/Motorway any time soon. This also makes a redesignation of Mullingar pointless as it would be a disconnected section of M4 with little chance of closing the gap for a long time. I'm assuming pressure to upgrade M6/M4 to Mullingar will not mount up for at least a couple of decades.

alentejo

I do not think this section of road will ever be upgraded to full motorway or equivalent.

However the main reason for the upgrade will be to get rid of the very dangerous crossings which have seen a number of fatal RTC's over the past year.

mickeyboymel

The LIDL is completely seperate to the ESSO station as mentioned previously. The entrance to the LIDL is on the old Dublin Road. There is an emergency only (?) link through to the Esso On The Run Service station together with an overhead barrier and do not use signs - Mind you it does not stop people from driving through to the garage.

roadmaster

since this project is D&B dose anyone know who will be looking after it and the N52 project for westmeath co co?

Amtmann

Any updates on this scheme?

spacetweek

Tremelo wrote: »

Any updates on this scheme?

Nope, but it'll be next if anything is.

munchkin_utd

I was wondering on the costing and theres very little out there except this extract from the local council meeting

It was noted that the figure of €12m for the Downs Grade Separation refers to construction costs only. The total project costs will be €19m.

http://www.westmeathcoco.ie/en/ourservices/yourcouncil/meetings/councilmeetings/2010/name,5138,en.html

Which means theres already a not insignificant 7m spent on it just in planning, archeology and land etc.

Slightly general question, but does anyone have a case study of a project like this one that breaks down how you can spend that much in planning of 1 bridge, 1 junction and the blocking of a few crossover points in a road?

spacetweek

munchkin_utd wrote: »

I was wondering on the costing and theres very little out there except this extract from the local council meeting

It was noted that the figure of €12m for the Downs Grade Separation refers to construction costs only. The total project costs will be €19m.

http://www.westmeathcoco.ie/en/ourservices/yourcouncil/meetings/councilmeetings/2010/name,5138,en.html

Which means theres already a not insignificant 7m spent on it just in planning, archeology and land etc.

Slightly general question, but does anyone have a case study of a project like this one that breaks down how you can spend that much in planning of 1 bridge, 1 junction and the blocking of a few crossover points in a road?

Could be other stuff like insurance, security - I dunno,

Amtmann

A male pedestrian died late this afternoon after he was hit by a lorry in Co Westmeath.

The incident happened at about 5.45pm on the N4 Mullingar bypass.

The victim was a man aged in his 20s. He was pronounced dead at the scene.

The westbound carriageways of the N4 are currently closed to traffic and diversions are in place while a forensic examination takes place.

The victim is the 102nd person to die on Irish roads so far this year and the 24th pedestrian.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0713/breaking82.html

Would that be the section of N4 due to be grade-separated? How many straws will it take to break this camel's back? Cyclists, tractors, and pedestrians on dual carriageways - motorways or not - is idiocy.

L1011

The "Mullingar Bypass" is grade separated and close to motorway quality (the petrol station, erm, "MSA" if upgraded, entrances are a bit small compared to what the modern MSAs have). There's no reason for pedestrians other than a broken down vehicle either, but they are allowed.

However they could be referring to the Downs scheme with the wrong name.

Sponge Bob

Any movement on this one or has Vladakar killed it off since he became minister??

No tender was published, just an information notice 10 months ago.

EDIT...maybe it is because the county council came up with a Part 8 scheme to upgrade 6km of it to Type1 DC (only in April)

http://www.wccprojectoffice.ie/new/database/downloads/N4DO&R%20PART%208%20DWGS%20FINAL_Typical%20Cross%20Sections.pdf

This was the last Rubbish DC built in Ireland...that I can recall.

nordydan

I was browsing on OSM, and noticed the junction numbers on the N4 Mullingar Bypass seem to be updated.

IIRC there are/were junction numbers on this section of road which do not tie in with the general M4/N4 numbering scheme.

Can anyone in the locality confirm whether the junction numbers have been updated?

Chris_5339762

Can upgrading a DC to a slightly better DC really be justified, thats the question I have. The Carrig-Midleton part of the N25 had the medians closed off and be damned to turning traffic. Reckon this would do the job nicely for the N4 scheme and give the €12million to something else.

L1011

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Can upgrading a DC to a slightly better DC really be justified, thats the question I have. The Carrig-Midleton part of the N25 had the medians closed off and be damned to turning traffic. Reckon this would do the job nicely for the N4 scheme and give the €12million to something else.

Doing that would leave a much longer stretch with no intersections.

nordydan - yes, about a year ago.

mickeyboymel

Hmmmm....18km of extra motorway, how much will this reduce journey times given that its already 100km Dual Carriageway.....money would be far better spent on the N52 sections between Cloughan Inn and Clonmellon which have continued to be neglected and seen many lives lost over the years

L1011

mickeyboymel wrote: »

Hmmmm....18km of extra motorway, how much will this reduce journey times given that its already 100km Dual Carriageway.....money would be far better spent on the N52 sections between Cloughan Inn and Clonmellon which have continued to be neglected and seen many lives lost over the years

It won't reduce journey times at all, its not being redesignated or the limit raised due to a lack of alternative route and premises opening on to it.

The reason it's being done is due to a massive accident rate, likely a lot higher than that section of the N52.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

This was the last Rubbish DC built in Ireland...that I can recall.

Built in a mad panic due to WCC/NRA realising there'd be a gap between the M4 and the Mullingar BP.

mickeyboymel

MYOB wrote: »

It won't reduce journey times at all, its not being redesignated or the limit raised due to a lack of alternative route and premises opening on to it.

The reason it's being done is due to a massive accident rate, likely a lot higher than that section of the N52.

Point Taken, very interesting data here : http://www.rsa.ie/RSA/Road-Safety/Our-Research/Ireland-Road-Collisions/

Sponge Bob

It could be a 120kph DC from c the Esso station to Kinnegad if this scheme + the part 8 is completed. Like the N25 east of the Jack Lynch Tunnel is a 120kph DC.

Pete_Cavan

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Any movement on this one or has Vladakar killed it off since he became minister??

No tender was published, just an information notice 10 months ago.

The tender documents must have only been sent to those who expressed an interest in the PIN. From the etenders notice;

Scheduled date for start of award procedures and duration of the contract

Scheduled date for start of award procedures: 20-04-2011
scheduled date for start of works: 20-09-2011completion of works: 20-11-2012

Siac are the main contractor anyway (I think Roghan O'Donovan did the design work), the company I work for received details from them to price the GSJ last week. I'll take it that means they will be starting on site soon.

Irish and Proud

SIAC has got the job!!!

Link to e-tenders - as well as the New Interchange and associated roads, the project includes the overlay of 5.7km of Dual Carriageway. AKAIK, the plan is to remodel the current at-grade dual carriageway (no hard shoulders) to the standard Type 1 Dual Carriageway. Even though each carriageway will increase from 9.5m to 10.5m, the overall profile will be narrowed as a RCB will replace the current grass median - I saw the WCC plans (PDF Document) to reconstruct the road from the centre out. Full list of Part 8 overlay documents here!

Regards!

spacetweek

Irish and Proud wrote: »

SIAC has got the job!!!

Link to e-tenders - as well as the New Interchange and associated roads, the project includes the overlay of 5.7km of Dual Carriageway. AKAIK, the plan is to remodel the current at-grade dual carriageway (no hard shoulders) to the standard Type 1 Dual Carriageway. Even though each carriageway will increase from 9.5m to 10.5m, the overall profile will be narrowed as a RCB will replace the current grass median - I saw the WCC plans (PDF Document) to reconstruct the road from the centre out. Full list of Part 8 overlay documents here!

Regards!

This is good news as connecting the Mullingar bypass to the M4 with a low spec dual was always an anomoly. I wonder if the whole stretch will be Type 1 now or if there will still be incursions. What about the premises accessing the mainline? Surely these will have to be diverted now.

Sponge Bob

The Roadhouse will still have access from west and exit to east.

L1011

It still won't have any chance of becoming motorway, and not even just due to the Roadhouse. As the 2000s scheme was entirely online barring one small section (they flipped sides of Mullingar Pewter from memory) there isn't an alternative route, and they aren't building enough frontage roads to substitute.

If it was just the Roadhouse and the Essos on the BP itself I'm sure they could have designated them as service areas under the 1993 definition if they really wanted to.

spacetweek

MYOB wrote: »

It still won't have any chance of becoming motorway, and not even just due to the Roadhouse. As the 2000s scheme was entirely online barring one small section (they flipped sides of Mullingar Pewter from memory) there isn't an alternative route, and they aren't building enough frontage roads to substitute.

If it was just the Roadhouse and the Essos on the BP itself I'm sure they could have designated them as service areas under the 1993 definition if they really wanted to.

Having gone through those documents, I'm pretty happy with what's proposed here. All median breaks will be closed and a number of LILOs removed.
Further work to complete to motorway would be completion of bits of frontage road and reconstruction of Junction 13 with bigger loops. Not for now though; it can wait 10-15 years.

Wild Bill

As this is one of the (the?) biggest national primary roads project (outside Cork) to be actually under construction I think it deserves a thread.






I was there today and snapped a few pics.

dubhthach

Nice what's the schedule build time for this?

annfield1978

who are the designers for this scheme

is the contractor siac?

Jayuu

Great pics. About time this section of road was sorted out.

However we already have an N4 Downs Grade Scheme thread in the Roads sub-section.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056158137

Its not on the first page so its easy to think that we didn't have one. Can we merge this into that thread rather than have two threads?

Wild Bill

dubhthach wrote: »

Nice what's the schedule build time for this?

They said by December 2012; that's rather quick seeing as the have to build a bridge, ramps, feeder roads and so on.

Wild Bill

Jayuu wrote: »

However we already have an N4 Downs Grade Scheme thread in the Roads sub-section.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056158137

Its not on the first page so its easy to think that we didn't have one. Can we merge this into that thread rather than have two threads?

My apologies! Merge of course.

(This is the second time his week I've done that)

Wild Bill

MYOB wrote: »

The reason it's being done is due to a massive accident rate, likely a lot higher than that section of the N52.

At the time they started building this (in 2000 I think) I contacted the NRA and had a long chat with them.

They had just finished closing a serious of absolutely deadly at-grade junctions on the N11 past Bray and built two junctions (one in '93 and the other in '95).

Now they were actually creating five more death-traps!

I pointed out that this was "almost criminal" - and I was told that here was a major internal debate in the NRA/Dept about how they could upgrade all the inter-urbans to 50mph (as they'd been instructed by the Government) - there wasn't enough money available to build motorway standard roads!

I guess someone managed to explain to the politicians that low quality DCs would be a recipe for major carnage. Thankfully. The result of the motorway decision was a major reduction in deaths instead.

Unfortunately that was too late for those killed and maimed on the Downs DC the past 10 years.

Pete_Cavan

annfield1978 wrote: »

who are the designers for this scheme

is the contractor siac?

Siac are the main contractor anyway and afaik Roghan O'Donovan did the design work.

dubhthach

Wild Bill wrote: »

My apologies! Merge of course.

(This is the second time his week I've done that)

I've merged the two threads, I forgotten about the original one tbh myself