QM Champion Chase

RichieLawlor

Moving these posts from the 'Somersby' thread to here.

Morgans wrote: »

One of the great wins Ive ever seen on a racecourse was MM. Several good performances. But completely overrated. How he didnt drift after the VC, I dont know. If Somerbsy hadnt run, (I dont think he would "rape" Weapons Amnesty, whose RSA form looks better every month) there would be clowns talking about his VC win as the greatest of all time. 20l ahead of Mad Max etc. I dont think Alberta's Run was done with when he fell first time out either.

But that is being crabby, he is a good horse but nothing like the horse we thought he was going to be after his first QC. Big Zeb is simply better.

Nicholls loves his excuses, loves em, (little blood from Kauto) but said that it was the heavy ground that caught MM's wind out on Saturday. Said that he was idling (he was in his sh1te) when BZ should have beaten him at Punchestown. Was the same for Azertuiop back in the day.

So, either the ground is too quick for MM or the ground is too soft and upsets his wind. Looked a world beater that day vs VPU but has never repeated it and I wouldnt trust him to either. (I was fooled by the Game Spirit last year)

Somersby could be one of those who is just a little paceless over any trip. I think he will be hard to win with, but its more likely to be in the Gold Cup than the Champion Chase.

I still think Big Zeb is worth taking on, these muddling 5 horse races he wins on bad ground don't test his suspect jumping. People will say he's been foot perfect this year, yes he has running a full stride slower than he will have to at the festival.

Yes, he jumped well in last years CC but that was a first. He nearly killed Choc the year before and jumped like a donkey when Twist Magic served it up them in the Tingle Creek.

I assume he will win the Tied Cottage easily again and go to Cheltenham shorter than he should be.

Master Minded is the best jumper I've seen since Best Mate.

That's the factor I'm basing my bet on. I couldn't back BZ at 9/4, much too short for a QM.

In saying that I would back Big Zeb at 6/4 if MM came over here to take him on in one of these small field farces.

Morgans

RichieLawlor wrote: »

I still think Big Zeb is worth taking on, these muddling 5 horse races he wins on bad ground don't test his suspect jumping. People will say he's been foot perfect this year, yes he has running a full stride slower than he will have to at the festival.

Yes, he jumped well in last years CC but that was a first. He nearly killed Choc the year before and jumped like a donkey when Twist Magic served it up them in the Tingle Creek.

I assume he will win the Tied Cottage easily again and go to Cheltenham shorter than he should be.

Master Minded is the best jumper I've seen since Best Mate.

That's the factor I'm basing my bet on. I couldn't back BZ at 9/4, much too short for a QM.

In saying that I would back Big Zeb at 6/4 if MM came over here to take him on in one of these small field farces.

If he hadnt won last year, the arguement would have some sort of a point. The tingle creek was a mistake, connections know that and didnt repeat it this year. Dont think he has made a mistake since then. Oh, all the races in Irlenad dont count, and then the champion chase doesnt count. He is a desperate jumper otherwise. They are the sort of arguements that kept Moscow Flyer odds on when racing in England. I love them. Moscow Flyer also unseated in a Tingle Creek and the Irish two-bob races bullspit was thrown out then.

You talk as if Master Minded didnt race in last year's QM. What excuse did he have? All the excuses were supposed to have been sorted after he won at Newbury. Beaten 10l last year, and he is supposed to have improved maybe? 9/4 is the worst price available for the QM.

RichieLawlor

Sizing Europe to take on Big Zeb in the Tied Cottage

minty16

RichieLawlor wrote: »

Sizing Europe to take on Big Zeb in the Tied Cottage

Really? Prices ?

mdwexford

Morgans wrote: »

One of the great wins Ive ever seen on a racecourse. Several good performances. But completely overrated. How he didnt drift after the VC, I dont know. If Somerbsy hadnt run, (I dont think he would "rape" Weapons Amnesty, whose RSA form looks better every month) there would be clowns talking about his VC win as the greatest of all time. 20l ahead of Mad Max etc. I dont think Alberta's Run was done with when he fell first time out either.

But that is being crabby, he is a good horse but nothing like the horse we thought he was going to be after his first QC. Big Zeb is simply better.

Nicholls loves his excuses, loves em, (little blood from Kauto) but said that it was the heavy ground that caught MM's wind out on Saturday. Said that he was idling (he was in his sh1te) when BZ should have beaten him at Punchestown. Was the same for Azertuiop back in the day.

So, either the ground is too quick for MM or the ground is too soft and upsets his wind. Looked a world beater that day vs VPU but has never repeated it and I wouldnt trust him to either. (I was fooled by the Game Spirit last year)

Somersby could be one of those who is just a little paceless over any trip. I think he will be hard to win with, but its more likely to be in the Gold Cup than the Champion Chase.

Not sure how you can over rate a two time Champion Chase winner and a 7 time Grade 1 winner tbh. Yes we probably wont see another 186 performance out of him but at his best he is clearly the best two miler since the holy trinity.

Saying Big Zeb is better is madness, hes had two 170+ performances in his career and aside from that has done nothing special.

Master Minded needs a bit of give and McCoy kicked on too early on Saturday and gave Somersby a chance to come back at him, not his greatest hour but still another Grade 1 in the bag.

I agree re Somersby.

Morgans wrote: »

If he hadnt won last year, the arguement would have some sort of a point. The tingle creek was a mistake, connections know that and didnt repeat it this year. Dont think he has made a mistake since then. Oh, all the races in Irlenad dont count, and then the champion chase doesnt count. He is a desperate jumper otherwise. They are the sort of arguements that kept Moscow Flyer odds on when racing in England. I love them. Moscow Flyer also unseated in a Tingle Creek and the Irish two-bob races bullspit was thrown out then.

You talk as if Master Minded didnt race in last year's QM. What excuse did he have? All the excuses were supposed to have been sorted after he won at Newbury. Beaten 10l last year, and he is supposed to have improved maybe? 9/4 is the worst price available for the QM.

Big Zeb is nowhere near Moscow Flyers league.

You arent seriously saying you think Master Minded ran to form last year are you?

You think FDTP would beat MM by four lengths again in a CC then?

Goldcupfav

Master Minded has beaten nothing this year in England. Petit Robin isnt Grade 1 class, Imsingingtheblues is a handicapper and Somersby i dont rate over 2 miles.(Should be going for the Ryanair imo). Big Zeb has beaten a two time Grade 1 winner and 3 time Grade 2 winner in Golden Silver easily enough twice this season. Big Zebs form this season stacks up way better then MM imo. According to Nick Mordins timing of MM Tingle Creek win, Woolcombe Folly ran quicker then MM when winning a handicap on the same card and over the same course and distance. Either Woolcombe Folly is a serious CC prospect or MM just isnt as good as he use to be. And i havent heard one person on here mention Woolcombe Folly as a CC winner.

Morgans

mdwexford wrote: »

Not sure how you can over rate a two time Champion Chase winner and a 7 time Grade 1 winner tbh. Yes we probably wont see another 186 performance out of him but at his best he is clearly the best two miler since the holy trinity.

Saying Big Zeb is better is madness, hes had two 170+ performances in his career and aside from that has done nothing special.

Master Minded needs a bit of give and McCoy kicked on too early on Saturday and gave Somersby a chance to come back at him, not his greatest hour but still another Grade 1 in the bag.

I agree re Somersby.



Big Zeb is nowhere near Moscow Flyers league.

You arent seriously saying you think Master Minded ran to form last year are you?

You think FDTP would beat MM by four lengths again in a CC then?

I think Master Minded at his best would beat Moscow Flyer at his best. And trust me, Im Moscow's biggest fan. However, we havent seen MM best for a long long time. In fact, we have never seen it repeated. Only pale imitations and the odd glimpss. I think he would need to improve on anything he has done this year, last year and most of the year before to beat Big Zeb, who is on form and improving.

I dont think he ran to form in last year's QM, only if you think that him being on form is the first QM win. I think his form in last years QM was more inkeeping with his general level of the past three yeras. He is more a 170 horse these days, not a 186 horse.

I think at their best MM would murder FPDP but I think the chances of MM running to his best arent strong. He is given excuses at aintree, punchestown, cheltenham, even when winning his second QM, Simon Holt was on and on about how it was a special performance, it wasnt, the year before was and everyone wants to see it again. I think he is the biggest lay of the race.

I think a lot of people like to think that he has 10l up his sleeve, but I dont believe its the case. He looks a good horse these days, and good enough to beat petit robin etc, but Id fancy Big Zeb, Golden Silver, FPDP, Captain Cee Bee to all beat Petit Robin and at least Big Zeb to beat MM.

Morgans

Goldcupfav wrote: »

Master Minded has beaten nothing this year in England. Petit Robin isnt Grade 1 class, Imsingingtheblues is a handicapper and Somersby i dont rate over 2 miles.(Should be going for the Ryanair imo). Big Zeb has beaten a two time Grade 1 winner and 3 time Grade 2 winner in Golden Silver easily enough twice this season. Big Zebs form this season stacks up way better then MM imo. According to Nick Mordins timing of MM Tingle Creek win, Woolcombe Folly ran quicker then MM when winning a handicap on the same card and over the same course and distance. Either Woolcombe Folly is a serious CC prospect or MM just isnt as good as he use to be. And i havent heard one person on here mention Woolcombe Folly as a CC winner.

I'd fear Woolcombe Folly more than Master Minded as a Big Zeb supporter.

meriwether

Didn't MM have a wind operation after last season?

I don't think he got the greatest ride on Saturday, and at one stage he looked like he was going to win comfortably but stopped a little towards the end.
I think Nicholls horses aren't running to their best at the moment either, so there might be something in that.

Before saturday I was of the opinion that MM was going to wrset back the crown from BZ in some style, but now, I'm not so sure. BZ is a formidable horse in his own right, and there is no margin for error.

Certainly,MM's days of winning a champ chase by a distance are well over.

Could it possibly be the cliche of french horses 'retiring' younger than UK and Irish horses?

Goldcupfav

Morgans wrote: »

I'd fear Woolcombe Folly more than Master Minded as a Big Zeb supporter.

Apart from WF last place in the Arkle last year(obviously something wrong that day) the horse is 2/2 at Cheltenham so could prove a danger. Is WF heading straight to the festival or is he due to have one more run?

mdwexford

Goldcupfav wrote: »

Master Minded has beaten nothing this year in England. Petit Robin isnt Grade 1 class, Imsingingtheblues is a handicapper and Somersby i dont rate over 2 miles.(Should be going for the Ryanair imo). Big Zeb has beaten a two time Grade 1 winner and 3 time Grade 2 winner in Golden Silver easily enough twice this season. Big Zebs form this season stacks up way better then MM imo. According to Nick Mordins timing of MM Tingle Creek win, Woolcombe Folly ran quicker then MM when winning a handicap on the same card and over the same course and distance. Either Woolcombe Folly is a serious CC prospect or MM just isnt as good as he use to be. And i havent heard one person on here mention Woolcombe Folly as a CC winner.

Golden Silver is not a proper Grade 1 horse either and Big Zebs form is a stone below Master Minded's this season in some cases.

Morgans wrote: »

I think Master Minded at his best would beat Moscow Flyer at his best. And trust me, Im Moscow's biggest fan. However, we havent seen MM best for a long long time. In fact, we have never seen it repeated. Only pale imitations and the odd glimpss. I think he would need to improve on anything he has done this year, last year and most of the year before to beat Big Zeb, who is on form and improving.

I dont think he ran to form in last year's QM, only if you think that him being on form is the first QM win. I think his form in last years QM was more inkeeping with his general level of the past three yeras. He is more a 170 horse these days, not a 186 horse.

I think at their best MM would murder FPDP but I think the chances of MM running to his best arent strong. He is given excuses at aintree, punchestown, cheltenham, even when winning his second QM, Simon Holt was on and on about how it was a special performance, it wasnt, the year before was and everyone wants to see it again. I think he is the biggest lay of the race.

I think a lot of people like to think that he has 10l up his sleeve, but I dont believe its the case. He looks a good horse these days, and good enough to beat petit robin etc, but Id fancy Big Zeb, Golden Silver, FPDP, Captain Cee Bee to all beat Petit Robin and at least Big Zeb to beat MM.

Interesting, i think it would be a hell of a race.

Big Zeb has an RPR of 175 for last years CC which is a career best, MM is capable of equaling that at the moment. Whichever turns up in better shape on the day will win.

Yeah i agree, he may have a 180 in him, then again maybe not and 175 is the max he can do these days.

Goldcupfav

mdwexford wrote: »

Golden Silver is not a proper Grade 1 horse either and Big Zebs form is a stone below Master Minded's this season in some cases.

Golden Silver OR 166 Imsingingtheblues OR 152 Petit Robin OR 163 Somersby OR 162. Golden Silver would beat anything that MM has raced against this season.

mdwexford

Goldcupfav wrote: »

mdwexford wrote: »

Golden Silver is not a proper Grade 1 horse either and Big Zebs form is a stone below Master Minded's this season in some cases.

Golden Silver OR 166 Imsingingtheblues OR 152 Petit Robin OR 163 Somersby OR 162. Golden Silver would beat anything that MM has raced against this season.

Maybe, maybe not he doesnt run to that mark every time.

Big Zebs ratings this season are 160 and 165.
Master Mindeds are 174, 173 and 171.

Goldcupfav

mdwexford wrote: »

Maybe, maybe not he doesnt run to that mark every time.

Big Zebs ratings this season are 160 and 165.
Master Mindeds are 174, 173 and 171.

Master Minded runs this season imo dont deserve such a high rating. The opposition he has beaten this season are nowhere near Grade 1 class. Id be very surprised if any horse MM has beaten this season would be in the top 4 in the CC come March. Where as Golden Silver is a proving Grade 1 winner (Be it in Ireland only).

minty16

Barry Geraghty says that Big Zeb is the best horse he'll be riding this season by a distance, and he's his best chance at Cheltenham. He also says that he reckons BZ will make right 3 miler , and wouldn't be surprised if he was in the Gold Cup 2012 . You heard it here. :eek:

RichieLawlor

minty16 wrote: »

Barry Geraghty says that Big Zeb is the best horse he'll be riding this season by a distance, and he's his best chance at Cheltenham. He also says that he reckons BZ will make right 3 miler , and wouldn't be surprised if he was in the Gold Cup 2012 . You heard it here. :eek:

So they will run an 11 year old in the Gold Cup next year when he barely sees out the 2 miles this year.

I'm blocking you now

Nulty

Goldcupfav wrote: »

Golden Silver OR 166 Imsingingtheblues OR 152 Petit Robin OR 163 Somersby OR 162. Golden Silver would beat anything that MM has raced against this season.

How can you quote Somersbys OR before hes been reassessed after the VC!? He was given and RPR171 - 3lbs behind Big Zeb

Goldcupfav

Nulty wrote: »

How can you quote Somersbys OR before hes been reassessed after the VC!? He was given and RPR171 - 3lbs behind Big Zeb

Wow a Racing Post Rating. Im going by OR here. And i think you should get over your love affair with Somersby the horse hasnt won since December 09 and has only ever won 2 Novice Chases. Somersby has no chance of winning the Champion Chase.

mdwexford

Goldcupfav wrote: »

Wow a Racing Post Rating. Im going by OR here. And i think you should get over your love affair with Somersby the horse hasnt won since December 09 and has only ever won 2 Novice Chases. Somersby has no chance of winning the Champion Chase.

How do you make out OR are better than RPRs?

Hes being campaigned terribly, not his fault.

convert

Ok, I do realise that the run-up to Cheltenham can be an extremely stressful time for punters, but, please, let's keep everything as calm as possible and avoid getting personal with other posters. Otherwise some people may not see it to Cheltenham without a few infractions. Thanks.

Nulty

Top 10 Officially Rated 2m Chasers

176 Master Minded
174 Big Zeb
170 Somersby
169 Woolcombe Folly
167 Forpadydeplasterer
166 Golden Silver
163 Petit Robin
162 Kalahari King
160 Tataniano
160 Sizing Europe

.....

159 Gauvain
158 Tchico Polos
157 Captain Cee Bee
149 Crack Away Jack
147 Osana


(163) Crack Away Jack and (163) Osanas marks were over Hurdles

bit of a bogey

Think Henrietta Knight is getting carried away with Somersby and the Queen Mother. Just doesnt have the pace and has always looked to be a 3m horse. The Victor Chandler the weekend wasnt actually that hot a race and Mcoy did make too much use of Master Minded.

Just go the Ryanair!!

UrbanSea

Goldcupfav wrote: »

Master Minded runs this season imo dont deserve such a high rating. The opposition he has beaten this season are nowhere near Grade 1 class. Id be very surprised if any horse MM has beaten this season would be in the top 4 in the CC come March. Where as Golden Silver is a proving Grade 1 winner (Be it in Ireland only).

As much as I like Golden Silver(made a fair bit on him when he won that handicap at Fairyhouse last year),I don't rate him as a brilliant grade 1 horse. Yes he's better than a lot of what MM has beaten this year but it all comes down to the fact that you can only beat what's put in front of you. So MM didn't blow everything away,I'd still have him 99 times out of 100 in a match bet with Golden Silver.
Having said that,MM hasn't looked as impressive visually this year as he has before. But you can't argue with a 3/3. I'd edge with Big Zeb for the chase,think there's more improving in him.

hucklebuck

Somersby will only win the Ryanair, not a hope in the Champion Chase and can't see him ever winning a Gold Cup.

Cee Bee has a bit to find on the ratings but willing to have a smash into him, he travels so strongly normally and if he jumps well he could win well. Might do a reverse forecast with Big Zeb.

Nulty

Somersby given 170 (from 162) by BHA handicapper, Master Minded down to 176 (from 178)

minty16

So people think that Saturdays run flattered Somersby enough to put him from the 3rd best 2miler down to what 7th or 8th? cant agree with that.

Nulty

You think your disappointed?...GoldCupfavs head is going to implode :pac:

Nulty

In what was described by some as desperate ground - they were 1.9 seconds off the track record set on GF by a 153 rated horse Crossbow Creek in '06

pre

Goldcupfav wrote: »

Master Minded has beaten nothing this year in England. Petit Robin isnt Grade 1 class, Imsingingtheblues is a handicapper and Somersby i dont rate over 2 miles.(Should be going for the Ryanair imo). Big Zeb has beaten a two time Grade 1 winner and 3 time Grade 2 winner in Golden Silver easily enough twice this season. Big Zebs form this season stacks up way better then MM imo. According to Nick Mordins timing of MM Tingle Creek win, Woolcombe Folly ran quicker then MM when winning a handicap on the same card and over the same course and distance. Either Woolcombe Folly is a serious CC prospect or MM just isnt as good as he use to be. And i havent heard one person on here mention Woolcombe Folly as a CC winner.

A first timer here on the racing boards totally agree with u on woolcombe folly i think he has a great e.w. shout at the very least. I go to the festival every couple of years and the one thing i always notice is how much ground horses loose that cant jump at speed. Woolcombe folly ticks all the boxes for me.

premierstone

UrbanSea wrote: »

,MM hasn't looked as impressive visually this year as he has before. But you can't argue with

Sorry Urban cant agree with you here I think he has been very impressive visually and hes jumping has been as accurate and straight as it ever has.

With regard to last saturdays race, the jockey has admitted error, the trip and ground werent optimum, the stable is in shocking form but yet if you take Sommersby out of the race he has pis*ed in by 20+lenghts, to me MM has far less questions to answer than BZ and im very happy with my 7/2 antepost

UrbanSea

Sizing Europe to face Big Zeb this Sunday. Should be a cracker.
Premierstone there's no way he's looked as good as in 08.

UrbanSea

BTW,would anyone else rather Sizing Europe go to the Ryanair?

Goldcupfav

UrbanSea wrote: »

BTW,would anyone else rather Sizing Europe go to the Ryanair?

Sizing still holds entries in the QM,the Ryanair and the GC. So the Ryanair could still be on the cards.

minty16

I would like to see SE go for the GC.

mdwexford

Awful campaign by SE trainer similar to Somersby.

He should have been racing over two miles this season imo.

Colonel Sanders

mdwexford wrote: »

Awful campaign by SE trainer

Agreed

Seeing as they decided to step up in trip it made no sense to miss the King George. I mean the likes of a slog in the Hennessy was never gonna be a feasible option. So that meant maybe something like the Aon chase or straight to the gold cup

Instead they've decided to go back in trip! De Bromhead's comments before the rescheduled King George really smacked of sulking over the fact he travelled for the race Stephen's day and it didn't go ahead

mdwexford wrote: »

He should have been racing over two miles this season imo.

I was actually impressed with his run at Down Royal and thought he'd be a very interesting runner at Kempton

I suppose there are the spring festivals still though

EDIT: Just dawned on me, maybe the 2m 4 race at Aintree could be right up his street

mdwexford

Colonel Sanders wrote: »

I was actually impressed with his run at Down Royal and thought he'd be a very interesting runner at Kempton

I suppose there are the spring festivals still though

EDIT: Just dawned on me, maybe the 2m 4 race at Aintree could be right up his street

Yeah it was a decent run for sure and the way it panned out he would have been interesting.

If he was mine though he would have been straight in against Big Zeb this season to see where we stood though.

premierstone

UrbanSea wrote: »

Premierstone there's no way he's looked as good as in 08.

Dont think he would need to be tbh, but he has looked far better than anything he did last year and the wind op seems to have gave him back hes sparkle.

Morgans

the line about if you take Somersby out of it, he wins by 20l is what's wrong.

Master Minded in 08 would be beating Somersby by 15l plus. 2m1f on soft ground isnt his conditions now. Its the imaginary 10l idea. If anything, it was Somersby that was running over a distance too short. Again, imaginary 10l. If McCoy had ridden him differently he would have won by further. Jockey error cost him a lenght or two, max. The fact that he was legless at the end of it isnt what I'd like to see in a prep race 6 weeks before the festival.

That somehow he has this 10l or extra performance in his pocket ready to use.

Horse is still top class, but not he looked to be possibly the greatest ever as a 5yo. He has disappointed.

Also, he hasnt looked remotely the horse this year as he did in last years Game Spirit. That was jawdropping, but ultimately flattering. If an Irish horse performed like that in his prep runs and failed like he did in Cheltenham, punters would be far far less forgiving.

premierstone

Morgans wrote: »

The fact that he was legless at the end of it isnt what I'd like to see in a prep race 6 weeks before the festival.

Im putting that down to a combination of Nicholls horses been horribly out of form and McCoy making too much use of him a fact he conceeded himself, also its not inconceiveable that Sommersby has improved greatly, personally I watched the race and my initial though was great I have just seen the winner of the QM and the Ryanair and then Hen Knight came out and said she was leaning towards the QM with Sommersby which to me is a huge mistake, the horse wants much further and will get done for toe 3 out and will stay on for a place at best, however if he was to run in the Ryanair I think it would be one of the bets of the meeting, people seem to forget the Ryanair is a Grade one also and not to be sniffed at.

hucklebuck

premierstone wrote: »

Sorry Urban cant agree with you here I think he has been very impressive visually and hes jumping has been as accurate and straight as it ever has.

With regard to last saturdays race, the jockey has admitted error, the trip and ground werent optimum, the stable is in shocking form but yet if you take Sommersby out of the race he has pis*ed in by 20+lenghts, to me MM has far less questions to answer than BZ and im very happy with my 7/2 antepost

So take the jockey error out and remove Somersby, and leave Petit Robin to unseat and interfere very badly with Kalahari King?

I will be taking Master Minded on for sure, he is simply not the same horse.

minty16

Personally, I am of the opinion that 2 miles is actually Somersbys best trip. I cant see him gaining a rating of higher over 2m4f or 3m.. He is only a stayer on looks and there is nothing to say he will be a great 3 miler. He is though, a great 2 miler, his rating confirms that.

Nulty

Someone is finally coming around...whatever you say about Somersby being better over further than 2m1f+ the fact is he's a damn good horse over 2m1f. There is every chance he'll be caught out at Cheltenham because its 2m dead but the Ryanair is 2m5f and its consistently won by horses that stay 3m (Albertas Run, Imperial Commander, Old Vic, Taranis) . If theres a doubt that Somersby stays 2m4f or 2m5f then he won't win the Ryanair and the Champion Chase is his only option.

Given the fact that the ground could come up slow and if he is ridden prominently and theres a very strong pace Somersby certainly has a chance of winning the QM. Anyone who disagrees needs head checking

mdwexford

Well of course theres a chance if some dont run to form and others fall or something.

At the moment id rate

Master Minded
Big Zeb
Sizing Europe
Captain Cee Bee
Tataniano

all as having a better chance though.

In the Ryanair or the Gold Cup he'd be my first choice selection.

Nulty

Sizing Europe? Ridden differently (in hindsight) Somersby would have beat him in the Arkle. Nothing in it between the two.

mdwexford

I dont think he would have, he was done for pace three out and then was staying on again up the hill when stamina kicked in. Exactly what i think will happen in the Champion Chase.

premierstone

hucklebuck wrote: »

So take the jockey error out and remove Somersby, and leave Petit Robin to unseat and interfere very badly with Kalahari King?

I will be taking Master Minded on for sure, he is simply not the same horse.

McCoy has admitted he made too much use of the horse and Petit Robin and Kalahari King are well held on the Tingle Creek form, I actually dont think people are given enough creedance to how out of form the majority of Nicholl's horses are and in light of this I was very happy with last weekends performance.


I fully agree he is not the same horse as in 2008, my point is he wont need to be, that performance may never be matched by any horse again in a QM.

minty16

I really want to see Sizing Europe over three. I think he beats Somersby comfortably over any trip . (2-3m).

hucklebuck

premierstone wrote: »

McCoy has admitted he made too much use of the horse and Petit Robin and Kalahari King are well held on the Tingle Creek form, I actually dont think people are given enough creedance to how out of form the majority of Nicholl's horses are and in light of this I was very happy with last weekends performance.


I fully agree he is not the same horse as in 2008, my point is he wont need to be, that performance may never be matched by any horse again in a QM.

In fairness neither of them had a prep race before the Tingle Creek, Master Minded ran in the Amlin.

I think he is running below his 09 QM form of late, his 08 QM was unreal.

Winning Ways Racing

Some on here will know my view on Big Zeb from previous contributions under a different user name. I'm lucky enough to see him on a regular basis in the yard and at the start of the season, all the word was that he had summered very well, as he had done the season before. I think he's only reaching his peak now and is similar to Moscow (both failed to win a bumper, both had jumping problems, both became very good jumpers).

I think his form this year has been rock solid. You can say what you like about Golden Silver, but he is rock solid high class grade 2 or low grade 1 horse. He carried top weight to win a handicap by 10 lengths at Fairyhouse last year off 154, which is more than Sommersby could do at Exeter. Of course Sommersby could have improved but MM has two ways of running. He can be brilliant, he can disappoint slightly.

BZ does not disappoint. In the last three years, BZ has been beaten very few times. Fall in Cheltenham, nostril by MM, mistake of going to Tingle Creek off too short a break. If he stayed at home for the Dial A Bet last year, and jumped the last against MM, his only defeat in three years would have been his fall in the QM. That's some record.

If Paul Nicholls trained him, they'd be calling him a legend.

Slattsy

hey guys, gonna throw my 2 cents into the Cm thread now

In my opinion its a 2 horse race, between Big Zeb and Master Minded.
Woolcombe Folly's form (for a 7/1) 3rd fav isnt good enough, end of. Sixing Europe will go for the Ryanair i think, they've been running him over further this year as i reckon they think he's lost some speed to tackle the big boys at 2...

I was not impressed with MM last weekend, and as some said previously, P Nicholls loves an excuse !! Great trainer but he finds it really hard to be honest about his beaten short price favs !!

So Big Zeb for me, won this doing handstand last year, should have beaten MM at Punch's in 09' (fluffed the last) and he should be shorter than the 11/4 out there, he's a 7/4ish shot in my book and he'll be going into all of my Chelt doubles and trebles. GET ON :cool: