Importance of Passing of Finance Bill

Lister1

Can someone explain to me the importance of the passing of the finance bill before the current Government collapses?

And also why the opposition also wish to see if rushed through before they are in office themselves?

mickdw

I think the opposition dont want to touch it tbh. Much easier for them to come in and be seen to change some small items in a good way.

not even wrong

Lister1 wrote: »

Can someone explain to me the importance of the passing of the finance bill before the current Government collapses?

Because apparently if it's not passed then international investors will lose faith in Irish bonds and we'll end up having to pay an exorbitant interest rate to a combined EU/IMF bailout oh wait.

Basically FF are trying to cling to power as long as possible because if the election gets held now they will be obliterated, so all they have is the faint hope that something, anything, will turn up if they just stall for another month or two.

And also why the opposition also wish to see if rushed through before they are in office themselves?

So that they don't have to take the blame for the cuts themselves.

iMax

Was this passed ?

darragh16

iMax wrote: »

Was this passed ?

Looks like it won't get passed since the Greens have withdrawn support.

ISAW

darragh16 wrote: »

Looks like it won't get passed since the Greens have withdrawn support.

My guess is FG will support it.

Dirk Gently

Lister1 wrote: »

Can someone explain to me the importance of the passing of the finance bill before the current Government collapses?

And also why the opposition also wish to see if rushed through before they are in office themselves?

It needs to be passed by the current government because FG and Lab have no feasible alternative and it would be rather embarrassing watching both of them squirm as in government they either pass the very same bill or try and come up with an alternative both can agree on and sell to their parties / supporters as radically different.

A new government needs all the help it can get and not having to draft a LAB/FG finance bill would be a massive help starting off.

annoyingbeast

it seems way too rushed.

very fishy.

sligopark

mickdw wrote: »

I think the opposition dont want to touch it tbh.

not so much that but they know its needed and they need to blame FF for those correctives measures now unfortunately required because between FG Labour and SF none have an alternative plan

Jessibelle

Could anyone explain to me why Mr Lenehan was saying on the news that if the bill is passed in a week like the opposition wants, he can't enact the combined tax rates for people under a civil union, and the yet other tax changes can be put through fine?

nesf

Jessibelle wrote: »

Could anyone explain to me why Mr Lenehan was saying on the news that if the bill is passed in a week like the opposition wants, he can't enact the combined tax rates for people under a civil union, and the yet other tax changes can be put through fine?

I imagine it is a lot more complex to enact legislation to create a new entity for taxation purposes than it is to bring in the other tax changes.

Mr.Micro

Jessibelle wrote: »

Could anyone explain to me why Mr Lenehan was saying on the news that if the bill is passed in a week like the opposition wants, he can't enact the combined tax rates for people under a civil union, and the yet other tax changes can be put through fine?

If Lenny and Biffo et al were really worried about the finance bill they would have sat later in the Dail before Christmas and resumed sooner in January. Did they ? Hell no. So its pure BS now on Lenny's part and it does not wash, as its all about FF and more time for FF to get its party together. It might be far better for a new Government to take a good long look at this bill before its passed into legislation.

hallelujajordan

The opposition are contradicting themselves on this and really need to make up their minds what they want. . Either they want to see the finance bill passed (in which case they should allow enough time for it to be passed properly, with appropriate amendments etc) or they do not (in which case they should proceed with their no confidence motion on Tuesday) . . .

The reality is imho that they want to see this bill passed because otherwise they will have to push it through post election and will then have to take ownership for its content, but rather cynically they are willing to sacrifice the appropriate review in order to maintain their electoral advantage over FF (i.e. proceed directly to the election before FF have any opportunity to show recovery under a new leader) . .

The opposition (like the government over the past few weeks, to be fair) are putting their own electoral advantage ahead of what is best for the country.

hallelujajordan

Mr.Micro wrote: »

If Lenny and Biffo et al were really worried about the finance bill they would have sat later in the Dail and resumed sooner. Did they ? Hell no. So its pure BS now on Lenny's part and it does not wash, as its all about FF and more time for FF to get its party together. It might be far better for a new Government to take a good long look at this bill before its passed into legislation.

This is no longer about FF. . The opposition now have it in their power to bring an end to this government next Tuesday . .

They wont . . IMO we will see a deal done that allows the finance bill to be enacted some time during the week after next and the election will happen a week or so earlier than currently planned. . . (4th March is my guess !)

Het-Field

hallelujajordan wrote: »

The opposition are contradicting themselves on this and really need to make up their minds what they want. . Either they want to see the finance bill passed (in which case they should allow enough time for it to be passed properly, with appropriate amendments etc) or they do not (in which case they should proceed with their no confidence motion on Tuesday) . . .

The reality is imho that they want to see this bill passed because otherwise they will have to push it through post election and will then have to take ownership for its content, but rather cynically they are willing to sacrifice the appropriate review in order to maintain their electoral advantage over FF (i.e. proceed directly to the election before FF have any opportunity to show recovery under a new leader) . .

The opposition (like the government over the past few weeks, to be fair) are putting their own electoral advantage ahead of what is best for the country.

How magnaminous of you :rolleyes:

The Finance Bill is simply legislating for the budget. It cannot be renaged upon. It has been voted through the Dail. FF will always have their fingerprints on it. Thus there is no cynicism attached.

All Parties are willing to have it passed as it is simply legislating for a budget which was accepted by a majority of the house pre-christmas.

hallelujajordan

Het-Field wrote: »

How magnaminous of you :rolleyes:

The Finance Bill is simply legislating for the budget. It cannot be renaged upon. It has been voted through the Dail. FF will always have their fingerprints on it. Thus there is no cynicism attached.

All Parties are willing to have it passed as it is simply legislating for a budget which was accepted by a majority of the house pre-christmas.

Completely inaccurate. . the opposition have said in the past that they would propose amendments if they could and I believe both parties have said that if election time comes before he bill is passed they will not continue with it in its current form. .

In addition, as I have outlined before . . if the opposition are not comfortable with the outcome of the most recent budget, why are they not proposing an emergency budget post election to reverse some of the changes?

Mr.Micro

hallelujajordan wrote: »

This is no longer about FF. . The opposition now have it in their power to bring an end to this government next Tuesday . .

They wont . . IMO we will see a deal done that allows the finance bill to be enacted some time during the week after next and the election will happen a week or so earlier than currently planned. . . (4th March is my guess !)

It is about FF, time and more time for FF and nothing less. As I pointed out there was no hurry before Christmas or since. Where did Biffo think he was going to stay on as Taoiseach. He single handedly has put the bill in jeopardy. How much more damage can he do? FF party first and foremost ie FF.

Het-Field

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Completely inaccurate. . the opposition have said in the past that they would propose amendments if they could and I believe both parties have said that if election time comes before he bill is passed they will not continue with it in its current form. .

In addition, as I have outlined before . . if the opposition are not comfortable with the outcome of the most recent budget, why are they not proposing an emergency budget post election to reverse some of the changes?

Sorry. Amendments are a very different thing to throwing the who Bill out. They have no intention of doing that.

Im not going to get into a pissing contest about who is more cynical. FF will lose every time. If not based on previous dealings and activites, the past week will certainly clinch it. The shameful behaviour of Cowen to attempt to use Ministerial Office in the hope of invigorating the party was beyond the plae.

hallelujajordan

Mr.Micro wrote: »

It is about FF, time and more time for FF and nothing less. As I pointed out there was no hurry before Christmas or since. Where did Biffo think he was going to stay on as Taoiseach. He single handedly has put the bill in jeopardy. How much more damage can he do? FF party first and foremost ie FF.

I don't disagree with you . . It seems that FF were dragging their heels on the finance bill in order to give themselves time to recover.. It now seems that FG/LAB are willing to sacrifice appropriate review of the finance bill in order to maintain an electoral advantage. . .

They all claim to be putting the country first but the reality is that none of them are ..

My point remains. The opposition should either call time on the government on Tuesday and then progress the finance bill themselves or allow the right amount of time to pass the finance bill . .

Liam Byrne

hallelujajordan wrote: »

The opposition should either call time on the government on Tuesday and then progress the finance bill themselves or allow the right amount of time to pass the finance bill . .

I agree, however I would rephrase it to say "proper debate of the Finance Bill", rather than the assumption that it's going to be passed.

If it's not right for the country, then it shouldn't be passed.

And given all the misdirection that's been going on, I'm afraid that that point may be lost.

Rushing this through because of the farcical sideshow is not an appropriate approach.

Mr.Micro

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I don't disagree with you . . It seems that FF were dragging their heels on the finance bill in order to give themselves time to recover.. It now seems that FG/LAB are willing to sacrifice appropriate review of the finance bill in order to maintain an electoral advantage. . .

They all claim to be putting the country first but the reality is that none of them are ..

My point remains. The opposition should either call time on the government on Tuesday and then progress the finance bill themselves or allow the right amount of time to pass the finance bill . .

It could be argued that FG/Lab are putting the country first by wanting to take charge and get FF out asap and nothing to do with electoral advantage.

hallelujajordan

Mr.Micro wrote: »

It could be argued that FG/Lab are putting the country first by wanting to take charge and get FF out asap and nothing to do with electoral advantage.

Yes, but that is not what they will be doing if they strike a deal to guillotine through the finance bill next week. They would be better off bringing down the government on Tuesday and taking ownership of the finance bill themselves.

Liam Byrne

OK - let's look at it this way.

Everything this government has done in relation to finances has been a disaster; they have proven to be hopelessly incompetent.

Why would the other parties suddenly "trust" them to have a change of heart and act in the country' best interests for a change ?

Is it that the details are known since Dec, or is it that the IMF are in ?

And if it's passed, and is indicative of the incompetence shown thus far by the coalition, is it easy enough for the incoming government to correct ?

Son Of A Vidic

mickdw wrote: »

I think the opposition dont want to touch it tbh. Much easier for them to come in and be seen to change some small items in a good way.

Absolutely, it's much easier to 'grandstand' on the sidelines. They are as spineless as the current wasters and would equally have allowed themselves to be shafted by the IMF/EU.

JONJO THE MISER

Roisin Shorthall on the week in politics full of cuff, she says labour dont support the finance bill but why the hell did they say they will pass it if it is passed by Friday.
Labour full of crap as usual, they will be worse that F.F if people vote for them:mad:

hallelujajordan

Liam Byrne wrote: »

And if it's passed, and is indicative of the incompetence shown thus far by the coalition, is it easy enough for the incoming government to correct ?

Of course it is . . . as I have said many times, the opposition could do what David Cameron did and promise an emergency budget within 50 days of coming into power. . If they wanted to do things differently they would be making such promises . . Its notable that they are not . .

hallelujajordan

JONJO THE MISER wrote: »

Roisin Shorthall on the week in politics full of cuff, she says labour dont support the finance bill but why the hell did they say they will pass it if it is passed by Friday.
Labour full of crap as usual, they will be worse that F.F if people vote for them:mad:

Absolutely and O'Rourke called her on it ! Labour want to oppose the Finance bill all the way to the vote but will be delighted when FF+GP pass it (hence the offer made by Gilmore today)

Shea O'Meara

sligopark wrote: »

not so much that but they know its needed and they need to blame FF for those correctives measures now unfortunately required because between FG Labour and SF none have an alternative plan

Half correct, half arseways.
Cuts are needed and they don't want the blame, but the cuts are needed because of FFail and due to the extent of the FFail shambles being left, any party would have a tough time coming up with an alternative plan.
Also they know from history; FFail screw the economy, they come in to fix it. FFail come back years later promising all sorts to a jaded and taxed public who hold the then regime responsible for the tight times and the FFail merry-go-round spins again.

Shea O'Meara

JONJO THE MISER wrote: »

Roisin Shorthall on the week in politics full of cuff, she says labour dont support the finance bill but why the hell did they say they will pass it if it is passed by Friday.

They said they would make amendments, they wouldn't pass it as it stands. If she was talking broadly, she was talking bollocks.

JONJO THE MISER wrote: »

Labour full of crap as usual, they will be worse that F.F if people vote for them:mad:

That's just not possible.

hallelujajordan

More double-speak from Coveney this morning .. FG want to debate the Finance Bill they want to propose amendments and correct some of the things that FF have gotten wrong . . . Great . . so why insist on an artificial deadline for your own electoral advantage ? ?

Either do it right or don't do it at all !

ISAW

hallelujajordan wrote: »

More double-speak from Coveney this morning .. FG want to debate the Finance Bill they want to propose amendments and correct some of the things that FF have gotten wrong . . . Great . . so why insist on an artificial deadline for your own electoral advantage ? ?

Either do it right or don't do it at all !

Joan Burton was on Newstalk this morning saying that investors are calling her from America and the instability of finance is bad for Ireland. she said they could pass the Finance Bill by Friday and Labour would offer their three hours time in addition to government time. At the same time she wants the Greens to vote against FF and pull out of government. So on one hand Labour want stability and on the other they don't want to vote for stability but want to vote against the Bill ( as long as they know someone else will pass it).

Maybe Cowan should just leave the Dail select a new Taoiseach and Kenny can pass the Bill with FF and Labour support or call an immediate election.

Maj Malfunction

I'm coming to the view that the Finance Bill is while important, does it matter or not if it gets passed this week or a General Election is called now?

Internationally we look like clowns and are a laughing stock. Lenny & Biffo telling us in November that the IMF aren't coming to Ireland & sure what do you know they show up!

The sooner we get rid of this "Government" the better we will get certainty and start to work on building some sort of credibility domestically & internationally.
!

astrofool

Maj Malfunction wrote: »

I'm coming to the view that the Finance Bill is while important, does it matter or not if it gets passed this week or a General Election is called now?

Internationally we look like clowns and are a laughing stock. Lenny & Biffo telling us in November that the IMF aren't coming to Ireland & sure what do you know they show up!

The sooner we get rid of this "Government" the better we will get certainty and start to work on building some sort of credibility domestically & internationally.
!

This isn't a laughing stock in politics. What's going on now in Dáil Eireann is small beans compared to what's gone on elsewhere internationally.

Party in government clinging to power by any means possible, *big whoop*.

hallelujajordan

Maj Malfunction wrote: »

I'm coming to the view that the Finance Bill is while important, does it matter or not if it gets passed this week or a General Election is called now?

Internationally we look like clowns and are a laughing stock. Lenny & Biffo telling us in November that the IMF aren't coming to Ireland & sure what do you know they show up!

The sooner we get rid of this "Government" the better we will get certainty and start to work on building some sort of credibility domestically & internationally.
!

I'm interested in this analysis that we are an international laughing stock . . Can anyone point me to references where the international media are laughing at us . .I have not been able to find anything.

StupidLikeAFox

Can I sneak in a quick question.

If the finance bill hasnt been passed into law, how come all the changes are already in effect? (the USC etc.)

T runner

Het-Field wrote: »

How magnaminous of you :rolleyes:

The Finance Bill is simply legislating for the budget. It cannot be renaged upon. It has been voted through the Dail. FF will always have their fingerprints on it. Thus there is no cynicism attached.

All Parties are willing to have it passed as it is simply legislating for a budget which was accepted by a majority of the house pre-christmas.

That is not correct. Fg have stated taht they will vote for some parts and against others and have amendments. When quizzed about the amendments this morninbg on PK, Noonan fudged. They want the Finance Bill and an early election.

That will mean this electio is about punsihing FF and not about policies that will help our economy and citizens.

There is absolutely no other reason to push to move the election forward.

If FF said F*** it, and left teh budget to teh next dail, teh public would see teh coalitions first actions as dithering, arguing and eventually settling over an identical Finance Bill.

That would be in FFs best inteerst not the countries. This Bill MUST be passed by this dail. FG and Labour are banking on teh government to pass it under any circumstances.

They are putting their own electoral interest before teh country and it may backfire.

T runner

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I'm interested in this analysis that we are an international laughing stock . . Can anyone point me to references where the international media are laughing at us . .I have not been able to find anything.

Yes, the "international laughing stock" is being cited as teh reason to bring the election forward. I suspect teh reasons are a little more selfish on teh oppositions part.

"Bickering" is teh word most commonly used on BBC. It describes all politicians here fighting when the country is in crises.

That may mean taht the opposition accepting teh current date of the election, debating the Fiannce Bill and getting on with it instead of this insistance on an early election would actually help our image, not ahrm it.

squonk

Broadly speaking, the finance bill as I see it is a formality. no party can make sweeping amendments to it. Like it or not, thanks to recent events, we are no longer in charge of writing our own budgets. the four year plan was demanded by the EU to bring us in line with policies in other EU countries and the Eu/IMF in return for the bailout are dictating what cuts need to be made. Yes, we have some leeway in how the money is cobbled together but broadly it doesn't leave us with many options and, regardless of what the opposition or the government say, neither of them can change the bill in any large or meaningful way.

What's happening now is purely a game. FF using the finance bill as a tool to remain in power for a bit longer while Mickey Martin settles into the job and rouses the troops, the opposition see it as a tool to catch FF on the hop and force them to an election with their party machine in disarray. Neither side are really dong what's in the interests of the country primarily but we need an election and a change of government so we'll at least get that.

pocketvenus

Apparently the Finance Bill needs to be passes or it can be challenged in the courts. So unless it is passed before the whole GE internationally creditbaility and huge legal problems.

I know ppl are sick of FF but rushing this through based on emotion will only lead to errors. If we are going to start a "new Ireland" might as well do it properly.

Rosahane

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I'm interested in this analysis that we are an international laughing stock . . Can anyone point me to references where the international media are laughing at us . .I have not been able to find anything.

You have to be joking, have a look on Bloomberg! The article below is relatively tame to some of the recent press.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-01-24/irish-parties-race-to-pass-budget-after-greens-withdrawal-ends-coalition.html

steelcityblues

The Labour Party are hoping that every potential voter forgets about their MONC. Shameless stuff!