Audi A2 - forgotton super[economy]car?

Matt Simis

It looks like a cartoon car, gets 75-95mpg (insane) in 1.2TDI guise, has a Prius beating drag co-efficient of 0.25 (in 1999!) and thanks to a hyper expensive and then exotic (still rare) all Aluminium chassis it weighs less than 900kg (on a German car! ). Thanks to the extreme lightness and relatively torquey TDI engines, its actually meant to be "a riot" to drive too.



Not usually the type of car that gets my interest, but as a cheap second hand buy with nearly no fuel costs its got serious kudos. I never see them here either. It seems, on paper, to handily beat the Diesel Mini in every regard aside from size (which for superminis is not a really a good thing).

Anyone have experience? Why did they fail (discontinued with no successor in 2005)?


EDIT: With a remap/tuning its effectively a 125bhp a ton car...

hoodie6029

I think they are uglier than the prius and that's no mean feat.
I've no doubt that what you've said is true, on paper they sound great but those looks are enough to put me off.

If I recall the A2 has the longest dipstick of a passenger car in the world ever.

Matt Simis

hoodie6029 wrote: »

If I recall the A2 has the longest dipstick of a passenger car in the world ever.

The driver?
Couldnt resist!

mondeo

They are very cute looking cars, I have hardly ever seen one on the road though.

fonecrusher1

What if something goes wrong mechanically? Would it be easy to get parts for & how much would they be? What about sourcing body panels in the event of a fender bender?

The rareness would put me off. Oh & its a pig ugly little thing.

I admire audi's innovation though. If i remember they were ridiculously overpriced when they hit showrooms in 1999.

GTE

I have seen one in Belfast that it was a 1.4 tdi. No idea there was a 1.2. That is fantastically great MPG.

Not a fan of the looks but I could get used to it to be honest. There aren't many cars that size that I like the look of from that time anyway.

eljono

Strangely enough, I passed one parked in Thurles yesterday evening and thought hmmm, wonder what they go for nowadays... Wasn't that keen on them when they came out originally but I guess my priorities have changed since then, as has the cost of fuel

Owen

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

What if something goes wrong mechanically? Would it be easy to get parts for & how much would they be? What about sourcing body panels in the event of a fender bender?

It being German, the manufacturers have to keep parts on the shelves for 10 years after it ceases production. I couldn't see there being a problem getting bits for it in the long term either.

JJJJNR

If my memory serves me right the 1.2TDi never made it here, only the 1.4TDi which comes with 100bhp standard.

The 1.2 TDi will do 200Km/h all day.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYGsiP0B8Dw

ToxicPaddy

They were never stunning looking cars, but I always had a soft spot for them.. the interior always reminded me of a Polo though as I had one myself years ago and for the money they were selling for, they were a complete rip off.

However they are relatively cheap in the UK so would be an idea second car, cheap to run but might be a bit expensive to maintain as parts would have to be special order..

EPM

Personally I think they are a great looking car and well ahead of their time. They are what a city car should be - light, economical and quirky with a decent interior.

The later sport models also looked even better.

peasant

Matt Simis wrote: »

Anyone have experience? Why did they fail (discontinued with no successor in 2005)?

They failed because they cost ridiculous money ...both to build (that spaceframe !) as well as to buy ...plus they were launched ahead of their time, when everybody else was building SUV's, pseudo SUV's and other assorted monstrosities. If they were still available now, they'd sell pretty well I'd expect.

Test drove a s/h 1.4 petrol once ...little cracker of a car. Comfy, nippy, well built, frugal and still Audi-plush inside.

The reason why I didn't buy it in the end was that even second hand it was still stupid money in comparison and the previous ownerette had decorated it with a lovely collection of bumps, dents and scratches that cost a fortune to fix on the aluminium panels.

Tropheus

My wife has one. It's a 03 1.6 FSI Sport that we imported from NI. We looked for a diesel, but couldn't find one with the right spec and needed the car in the short term. The diesels are definitely very economical. The 1.6 isn't too bad and can average 40mpg with mixed driving.

Parts aren't an issue. The A2 was sold here so any Audi dealer can get parts. Many of the parts are shared with the Polo/Golf so common across the VAG range. Non VAG service and replacement parts are also available from motor factors and online.

Due to the price of the cars new, there were very few sold here. Most of what you see on the road are imports. An average spec A2 wasn't far off €30k before they ceased production in 2005. It's a lot of money for a car of that size.

They are well made and more luxurious inside the most if not all cars in their class. If you can, go for one with climate control. It was an £800 option in the UK, but it will make the car more resalable in the future and more comfortable to own.

They are reasonably roomy inside. However, most are only 4 seat. There was a bench seat option for the back that made it a 5 seat, but very few have it as it wouldn't seat 3 adults.

The ride is an issue. Due to them being relatively high off the ground for their size and the fact they're not very wide, the suspension tends to be on the harsh side. My wife's Sport model is even harder. She doesn't mind it, but I find very harsh over rough roads. The Sport model wasn't sold in Ireland for that reason.

That long dipstick is a nightmare. It is impossible to read so you can't accurately tell how much oil is in the car. Bad design IMO.

They are going for decent money these days. If you're serious, you'll find lots of information here - www.a2oc.net. It's a UK based site with A2 owners from around Europe.

-Corkie-

I never liked them. I could never see the point in them either TBH.

I nearly got a heart attack though when I see Matt starting a thread on it. I thought someone had hacked his account..:p

Owen

Only 3 for sale on Carzone, none Diesel. No 1.2 TDi's for sale on Pistonheads either.

unkel

I saw one in Lucan last Monday and was just thinking to myself I hadn't seen one in years!

Clever little car and I've no doubt history will be kind on them. Way to expensive at the time though - I remember the A2 cost more than the equivalent A3. That's not right, they should have just called it the A3.5

peasant

BTW, those 70-80 mpg only applied to the eco version of the 1.2 diesel.

That came with really skinny eco-tyres, flush hubcaps and a weight-watchers equipment list.

colm_mcm

They're a bit pricey aren't they?

Anan1

Too much engineering and too little flash is (IMO) what killed the A2.

Matt Simis

-Corkie- wrote: »

I nearly got a heart attack though when I see Matt starting a thread on it. I thought someone had hacked his account..:p

Well I can appreciate it without driving it myself cant I!
My other half does 900km a week or something silly and likes these types of autos.

Tropheus

The 1.2 TDI wasn't sold in RHD markets as far as I'm aware. There was also an auto option that wasn't available in RHD either.

Here's a link to the June 2003 UK Price List http://www.a2oc.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4908

Take those UK prices and multiply by 2 to give you an idea of the equivalent Irish Euro price. You can understand why there are so few on the road.

maidhc

Id love an A2!

JJJJNR

I'd say this one is a cracker to drive around city streets, the FSi engine has 16 valves and not the 8 as seen in most other VAG cars.

shedweller

Me too. I believe they were made with steel later on. The cost of aluminium construction being too much.
I looked into getting one but the back seat was too narrow. Got a 1.4 diesel yaris instead. 3.5L/100k over the last 2 months.

peasant

yeah baby !

Tropheus

shedweller wrote: »

Me too. I believe they were made with steel later on. The cost of aluminium construction being too much.
I looked into getting one but the back seat was too narrow. Got a 1.4 diesel yaris instead. 3.5L/100k over the last 2 months.

No, they're all aluminium. The cost of changing to steel construction late in the run would not have been economical.

opinion guy

This car failed for one reason only - its outstandingly ugly!!!!

Yeah it might have cost alot but if it weren't so ugly that wouldn't have mattered - marketing could have gotten around. Though I do agree it was ahead of its time - with those consumption figures it would do well now....if it were slightly de-uglified

shedweller

opinion guy wrote: »

This car failed for one reason only - its outstandingly ugly!!!!

Yeah it might have cost alot but if it weren't so ugly that wouldn't have mattered - marketing could have gotten around. Though I do agree it was ahead of its time - with those consumption figures it would do well now....if it were slightly de-uglified

Your opinion.

rjmf

shedweller wrote: »

Your opinion.

But he's right

shedweller

ksimpson wrote: »

No, they're all aluminium. The cost of changing to steel construction late in the run would not have been economical.

My bad. Chineese whisper perhaps? It seemed like a viable theory but now that i have re read up on it.....

fonecrusher1

rjmf wrote: »

But he's right

Yup i agree also. Its a pig.

shedweller

rjmf wrote: »

But he's right

Your opinion also. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Form over function, etc.

Mr.Boots

I nearly bought a diesel one when they came out, loved them, i think they were ahead of themselves.
I remember the fron wiper was so large it rocked the car slightly when stoped in traffic

x in the city

-Corkie- wrote: »

I never liked them. I could never see the point in them either TBH.

I nearly got a heart attack though when I see Matt starting a thread on it. I thought someone had hacked his account..:p

LMAO

Reading this now

quality post alright, an 850Csi owner postin about an A2...hehe

x in the city

peasant wrote: »

BTW, those 70-80 mpg only applied to the eco version of the 1.2 diesel.

That came with really skinny eco-tyres, flush hubcaps and a weight-watchers equipment list.

jesubs thats as bad as a syannsonggggggg rodius memoth

Yakult

If you really could get 70-80 mpg I would be happy to drive that, but then the more I think about looking at it on the driveway every day.. I think naaah.

Absolutly terrible on the eyes and you wonder who gets paid (and probably alot) to design these cars..

x in the city

Yakult wrote: »

If you really could get 70-80 mpg I would be happy to drive that, but then the more I think about looking at it on the driveway every day.. I think naaah.

Absolutly terrible on the eyes and you wonder who gets paid (and probably alot) to design these cars..

the syannsof||cking radius designer probably is responsible for all the worlds hideous cars

BostonB

I don't get the ugly comments tbh. While its nothing special its neat and tidy with no odd angles. Boring, conventional ok, but ugly? Typical VAG design IMO.

What eco supermini's of the same era were good looking?

It never sold because it was too expensive for what it was for. Built like a tank though.

Matt Simis

In the defence of the designers, the reason it looks as it does is low frontal resistance combined with a Kammback/ Kamm Tail design (also seen in the Prius and Insight). In this case they can legitimately claim function over form in design with measurable results.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kammback

Low Cd combined with modern safetly requirements make for challaging on the eyes designs.

Two alternative kits which tidy it up a bit:

The silver one looks like small Ford Focus IMO.

Seweryn

Matt Simis wrote: »

In the defence of the designers, the reason it looks as it does is low frontal resistance combined with a Kammback/ Kamm Tail design (also seen in the Prius and Insight). In this case they can legitimately claim function over form in design with measurable results.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kammback

Low Cd combined with modern safetly requirements make for challaging on the eyes designs.

Two alternative kits which tidy it up a bit:

The silver one looks like small Ford Focus IMO.

They are very well engineered and not that bad looking cars. There are plenty of cars on the market that cost more and look worse (BMW E60, BMW E63, Ssangyong - almost every model, Toyota Prius, Nissan Juke, etc.) and yet they are far from being as economical as the A2 Diesel.
My main worry from the practical user point of view would be any body panel repairs if needed.

W.Shakes-Beer

Its funny that this topic has come up as I was just chattin with a friend the other day about cars we remember from say the 90's when we were growing up and cars that we just no longer really see around.

The A2 was one of those cars, I remember them, but haven't seen one in ages.

peasant

The A2 has to be seen in context.

In the mid 90's in Germany the big thing for the next step in car technology was the "Drei-LiterAuto", the three liter car ...as in 3 liter fuel per 100 km.

All sorts of companies dabbled in all sorts of weird prototypes but the only real development that came out of it was the 1.2 TDI from VAG. By all accounts a pretty costly engine to develop and build.

VW stuck it into the Lupo, but to achieve the magical 3l/100 km, they had to do all sorts of weight saving trickery and aerodynamical fine-tuning. The result was a butt-ugly Lupo that was about as well equipped as a medieval prison cell and still cost a substantial premium over a regular Lupo



In a bit of inter-company rivalry Audi went for the "Vorsprung durch Technik" approach and didn't just strip down an existing car but changed the design from the bottom up ...spaceframe, aluminium panels etc ...with the ultimate goal of building a real car with proper equipment and still reach the three liter mark.

In the end it didn't quite work out for them ...the three liter version of the A2 still had skinny tyres, ugly wheels, lighter glass, no power steering, a modified aerodynamic underbody and cost a fortune ..but it managed to do the three liter mark.

In the wake of that, better equipped, faster and plusher versions could be sold at a high price to well-off people as second or third cars under the mantle of being frugal, eco, tree hugging, good for your bad conscience luxury cars.

At the same time (and against all predictions) fuel staid very affordable and instead of tightening their belts, the automotive world embarked on building dinosaurs like the Porsche Cayenne, BMW X5 and all their mid-range equivalents. People rushed to buy those instead (in a sort of ...one more time before the fuel really runs out movement) and the idea of the three liter car just languished at the fringes.

Mr.David

It's a great example of engineering really, despite its ugliness. Pity it didnt do well, but it was ahead of its time.

If you look at the blocked off grill - that alone is worth a significant Cd reduction. Now of course we have active vanes but the A2 has the same principle they just aren't active!

Then the k-tail design with the spoiler on the back giving an abrupt separation to the flow over the rear of the vehicle and the large wheel arches which force the flow outwards of the wheels (themselves a large source of drag) represents another significant saving.

Interesting how the game has moved on so much in recent years though. The 3 Series efficient dynamics has a Cd of just under 0.26 (I think its 0.258) and does so without any notable compromises to the styling. There's no k-tail or permanently blocked off grill or obvious spoiler. The underfloor though is superbly executed along with low drag wheels and every body panel (moving from front to back) being slightly overflush to the next.

I like the A2 ugly as it is.

bijapos

^ Good post Peasant. The A2 was a bit ahead of its time, as Peasant said the "3l car" was the big thing in the 90's. They were technically very innovative and as such had a certain appeal to a lot of buyers, and VW/Audi learnt a lot for use in future models.

Audi contemplated a successor but it was rejected on the fact that it was too expensive, their other problem was that a car that was initially concieved as a direct competitor to the Mercedes A-Class was percieved by the public to be a competitor to the Polo.

They are a very good car, very economical and very reliable. As regards "looks" that is as always a matter of taste and tastes differ. They look a bit better in certain colours imo but as someone said above history will judge them kindly.

My ex GFs mother had one, very happy with it, my only personal gripe is that you cant open the bonnet, everything is serviced through the hatch in the grill. Only the workshop can open it.

Matt Simis

bijapos wrote: »

My ex GFs mother had one, very happy with it, my only personal gripe is that you cant open the bonnet, everything is serviced through the hatch in the grill. Only the workshop can open it.

I read the bonnet is easy to open, two twisty knobs and the whole panel comes off. The A2 FAQ even went as far as to say it was easier to work on than a regular bonnet as it had no hinges etc (totally open)...?

Seweryn

bijapos wrote: »

My ex GFs mother had one, very happy with it, my only personal gripe is that you cant open the bonnet, everything is serviced through the hatch in the grill. Only the workshop can open it.

Anyone can open or rather remove the bonnet and it is a simple operation. You need to open the grill hatch and then undo the side knobs that secure the bonnet. The bonnet pops up slightly and then you pull in towards the front of the car. The bonnet has no hinges, so better to have a second person to help with it.

alastair

I always thought they were a handsome car myself.

bijapos

^^ I thought there was a way alright but I never looked properly. Anyways like I said its the ex-GFs mother. Something tells me I wont be going around there in a hurry anyway, probably have the dogs set on me.

peasant

bijapos wrote: »

...a direct competitor to the Mercedes A-Class

In that context it might be worth mentioning that the A-class got it's peculiar platform frame with the underslung engine so that it would be easier to replace the petrol engine with batteries and electric motors or fuel cells / hydrogen tanks further down the road ...but of course that never happened either.

Tragedy

Citroen C2 HDI should get around the same MPG as the A2, and be cheaper to buy!

Tropheus

Seweryn wrote: »

Anyone can open or rather remove the bonnet and it is a simple operation. You need to open the grill hatch and then undo the side knobs that secure the bonnet. The bonnet pops up slightly and then you pull in towards the front of the car. The bonnet has no hinges, so better to have a second person to help with it.

Correct. I service my wife's A2 and it's easy to work on. The bonnet is a bit of a gimmick. I would prefer one that opens normally.