Anybody else here pro Black Economy?

alan85

If you think about the extra taxation that is now being imposed upon us for less in return is it worth paying taxes at all? They will tell you that the economy is growing again and you hear of profits in banks abroad. Yet, here people are paying extra taxes, more money is pumped into banks, money is taken out of the health system, jobs are cut, high profile civil servants get handsome golden handshakes 3 years into a financial crisis and VHI is unattainable to a lot of people. The governance is a joke and plenty of time and leeway has been given to fix it. There is no appetite to do so. So what can be done?

My thinking is:
It now makes sense to work and trade in the black economy if you can. It keeps money in the Irish economy and gives people more spending power. What do you think?

later12

Unfortunately the government (as with most governments) fail to take account of the black economy when forming welfare and taxation policy, thereby possibly worsening the effect of the black economy overall.

If Ireland were to engage in the black economy to any significant degree (or maybe it is already happening) the logical thing to do would have to be to cut taxes but also to pull back significantly on welfare and other current expenditure. I don't think that's a good idea right now.

So no. You have to acknowledge that you don't live in or work in a vacuum, and that this has knock-on effects.

gandalf

Do you drive on the road?
Do you, your friends or relatives have children going to schools?
Do you, your friends or relatives need to go to the hospital ever?
Do you want a police force to maintain order (to some degree!)?
Do you need social welfare if you ever lose your job and need to find a new one?

If the answer is yes to any of these or any similar questions then you should see the fallacy in the proposal to work and trade in the black economy!

Rabidlamb

I supplement my childminders dole by paying her €250 a week to mind my kids.
Nothing illegal to see here, only a few friends looking out for each other..

I'll now forward my details to Gandalf so they can out the one person who's doing it straight away.
Better not let it catch on.

alan85

Do you drive on the road?
Do you, your friends or relatives have children going to schools?
Do you, your friends or relatives need to go to the hospital ever?
Do you want a police force to maintain order (to some degree!)?
Do you need social welfare if you ever lose your job and need to find a new one?

• Do I object to ridiculous tolls on roads: Yes
• Do I think standards are dropping in healthcare: Yes
• Do I think the Gardaí are responsive enough: No, they haven't the resources. Organised crime budget halved this week for e.g.
• Is social welfare fair and equal: Definitely not, taking money from the blind and disabled this year. Rates dropping and disportionate compared to those in top waged civil service jobs.

How else do you give those at the top a headache because it's not going to change with FG/Lab in there... Don't be tricked into thinking they'll change it all. Major reform is necessary.

RobbieTheRobber

Rabidlamb wrote: »

I supplement my childminders dole by paying her €250 a week to mind my kids.
Nothing illegal to see here, only a few friends looking out for each other..

I'll now forward my details to Gandalf so they can out the only person who's doing it straight away.
Better not let that catch on.

Rabidlamb,
When we deal with these things in isolated cases like your childminder who is receiving state benefits for being unemployed, they can seem minor. However should 100,000 people be recieving 250 euros whilst also claiming state aid then this creates a problem a for the state.
These people are now earning more yet still claiming state benefits at a time when the state cant afford to pay.
The only people that cheats is those who work and pay tax!


Also would you not be entitled to some reduction in taxes due to your paying €250 per week if declared?

Tipp Man

alan85 wrote: »

• Do I object to ridiculous tolls on roads: Yes
• Do I think standards are dropping in healthcare: Yes
• Do I think the Gardaí are responsive enough: No, they haven't the resources. Organised crime budget halved this week for e.g.
• Is social welfare fair and equal: Definitely not, taking money from the blind and disabled this year. Rates dropping and disportionate compared to those in top waged civil service jobs.

How else do you give those at the top a headache because it's not going to change with FG/Lab in there... Don't be tricked into thinking they'll change it all. Major reform is necessary.

Why are you being so open about being a thief?? Yes because if you believe in the black economy then you are robbing from me and every other law/tax abiding citizen in this country.

Can you justify why I need to pay higher taxes because you think you are above paying tax or don't agree with how its spent??

As for your above point well quite frankly they are a load of crap

• We have 5 or 6 tolls in the entire country - 5 or 6 tolls which have given us the best roads in the country
• The country is broke - do you expect us to have the best healthcare system in the world while we are broke??
• We have some of the highest social welfare in the world, what the hell is unfair about it??

People who actively particpate in the black economy shouldn't be given a vote IMO.

Peanut2011

If you look at yourself and yourself alone than yes, it makes sense, BUT who do you think will have to pay for social welfare you would be claiming in that case??

conorhal

alan85 wrote: »

My thinking is:
It now makes sense to work and trade in the black economy if you can. It keeps money in the Irish economy and gives people more spending power. What do you think?

My thinking is, that's how Greece ended up being the third world sh1thole that it's become, nobody paid tax, every job was cash in hand and nothing got done without a bribe.
I think that you'll find that any successful economy with good social services has a low level of black economy activity.

alan85

Why are you being so open about being a thief?? Yes because if you believe in the black economy then you are robbing from me and every other law/tax abiding citizen in this country.

Can you justify why I need to pay higher taxes because you think you are above paying tax or don't agree with how its spent??

As for your above point well quite frankly they are a load of crap

• We have 5 or 6 tolls in the entire country - 5 or 6 tolls which have given us the best roads in the country
• The country is broke - do you expect us to have the best healthcare system in the world while we are broke??
• We have some of the highest social welfare in the world, what the hell is unfair about it??

People who actively particpate in the black economy shouldn't be given a vote IMO.

I think when you have morals at the basis of what you're doing then it's not a bad thing. I worked any time I got between school years, university and for 2 years straight once out of college. I paid tax and was happy to. But now that I'm out of the loop I see things differently. All I see is Harney to get €300,000 in one year and €150,000 every year thereafter at the tender age of 57.

A joke is what that is. If you're in a job and able to get by and don't feel the pain that's all well and good for you.

gandalf

alan85 wrote: »

• Do I object to ridiculous tolls on roads: Yes
• Do I think standards are dropping in healthcare: Yes
• Do I think the Gardaí are responsive enough: No, they haven't the resources. Organised crime budget halved this week for e.g.
• Is social welfare fair and equal: Definitely not, taking money from the blind and disabled this year. Rates dropping and disportionate compared to those in top waged civil service jobs.

How else do you give those at the top a headache because it's not going to change with FG/Lab in there... Don't be tricked into thinking they'll change it all. Major reform is necessary.

I am not talking about tolls, I am talking about basic road repairs. You think they are bad now, if people go the route you are suggesting we will be back to dirt roads. (btw my thoughts on tolls have been put forward in the past on this forum).

Yes standards in Health Care are worse yet the amount of money pumped into it has ballooned. It needs total reform and I believe the incoming Government will have a plan to do it. It will be painful and people will lose their jobs. BTW I have a particular issue with the help service during the previous FF gov my father died. He had a stroke was in hospital for 8 months and caught MRSA three times, it was a contributor to his eventual death. Now imagine the scenario if people starve the country of tax revenue. The Health Service will no longer function.

The Gardai yes they are under resourced. How will your proposal of starving them of even more funds help?

Well aware of the Social Welfare I am currently unemployed but I also realise that as a country we cannot afford to spend more that we have coming in. Personally I have cut back on an awful lot that I would have taken for granted before but that is life. Until I get a new job that is what I have to do. The country is in a similar position it has to cut back to live within its means. Unfortunately that means it has to make cuts where it spends the most money like Social Welfare. Taxing the rich may sound like a wonderful plan but it will not make the shortfall of funds up that are needed. It definitely won't if your proposal occurs.

I agree with you on one thing, Major reform does need to happen.

It needs to happen with our political system so parish pump politicians and clientism is banished from the stage of our national politics one and for all.

It needs to happen with our Public Services so funds are no longer wasted but backup by an organisation that allows them to be delivered to the front line services in the most efficient way possible. Starting with the Health Service.

It needs to allow us to have a Social Welfare system that aids those who really do need assistance and to wean the majority off Social Welfare as a life choice as quickly and efficiently as possible.

alan85

My thinking is, that's how Greece ended up being the third world sh1thole that it's become, nobody paid tax, every job was cash in hand and nothing got done without a bribe.
I think that you'll find that any successful economy with good social services has a low level of black economy activity.

Greece lied and did dodgy trading at top level. That's how it got into difficulty. I'm not asking the government to lie about deficits. I want to create a headache for top level governance so they take heed of the difficulties of the people below.

Tipp Man

alan85 wrote: »

Greece lied and did dodgy trading at top level. That's how it got into difficulty. I'm not asking the government to lie about deficits. I want to create a headache for top level governance so they take heed of the difficulties of the people below.

any chance you would join the emmigration list as opposed to the dole list??

RobbieTheRobber

alan85 wrote: »

Am I really robbing you if they money stays in Ireland and is used by ordinary people to have that bit extra spending power? It's only off the government's books that anything is being robbed... In my view.

So you dont consider services of the state(hospitals schools) and the state benefits (OAP pensions JSB etc) as being for the people?

Tipp Man

alan85 wrote: »

Am I really robbing you if they money stays in Ireland and is used by ordinary people to have that bit extra spending power? It's only off the government's books that anything is being robbed... In my view.

And how the hell do you think it gets onto the government books as income in the first place?? Thats right my thousands in tax and every other tax payers thousands

conorhal

alan85 wrote: »

Greece lied and did dodgy trading at top level. That's how it got into difficulty. I'm not asking the government to lie about deficits. I want to create a headache for top level governance so they take heed of the difficulties of the people below.

What happened at the top level only reflects what was happening at the bottom, the political culture of a nation is generally a reflection of the social culture. That is as true for Ireland as it is for Greece, so if you think that a nod, a wink, a brown envelope in your back pocket instead of a declared income, stickin' it to dem ini charge! and ah sure am'nt I only looking out for meself? is a culture that you can indulge in and your representitives won't, you are only fooling yourself.

alan85

And how the hell do you think it gets onto the government books as income in the first place?? Thats right my thousands in tax and every other tax payers thousands

More importantly, where does it go once on the books? Debt repayment possibly?

gandalf

You know on reflection we have seen this attitude in Ireland before. Alan shares his ideas with people like FF Councillors, TD's, Developers etc who thought they were too good to share the burden of society with the majority. They too chose to shirk their duty of paying taxes so society could function properly with the services it needed. You're in great company Alan. Well done

later12

Can I just point out that if anybody knows about the black economy and evasion of tax, it's the Greeks.

I'm not sure that theirs is a route we want to take any further than we have already taken.

Tipp Man

alan85 wrote: »

More importantly, where does it go once on the books? Debt repayment possibly?

It goes on your dole and all the other state services you use without paying for

DoesNotCompute

alan85 wrote: »

I'm not asking the government to lie about deficits. I want to create a headache for top level governance so they take heed of the difficulties of the people below.

All you're doing is creating a headache for employed people like me, who have to pay more taxes to deal with tax cheats, like you!

Our country is broke. Living within the black economy is going to make things worse than they already are.

ei.sdraob

Ah the "Black Economy" talk about an Euphemism

There is no black or white economy, there is only one singular economy with sections that do not fall under government control.

Aard

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Also would you not be entitled to some reduction in taxes due to your paying €250 per week if declared?

Most people in this country have no idea how to do their taxes. The ones who do are then derided as fat cats.

RobbieTheRobber

Aard wrote: »

Most people in this country have no idea how to do their taxes. The ones who do are then derided as fat cats.

Well a good place for them would be the revenue.ie site or the citizensinformation.ie site.

whiteonion

Seems many people want social services and infrastructure yet they don't want to pay the taxes for it. :rolleyes:

zig

Rabidlamb wrote: »

I supplement my childminders dole by paying her €250 a week to mind my kids.
Nothing illegal to see here, only a few friends looking out for each other..

Is this tongue in cheek or is it true?

Rabidlamb

zig wrote: »

Is this tongue in cheek or is it true?

It's true, what world do you live in.
If I had to pay full time care for 2 pre-school kids in a creche it would be nearer twice that amount.

The government have tried to regulate the childcare unsuccessfully over the past 10 years.
More & more grand parents are been dragged out of retirement so 2 people can work to service a mortgage.
The family I pay take in another 2 kids aswell, it's the only way they can keep up payments on their mortgage.

If they default on their mortgage it burdens the state through our sovereign banks.
So it's a case of welfare fraud or an unnecessary burden on the taxpayer.
Which would you prefer ?.

mikemac

Minding four children is quite a task for any person

There was quite a long thread on similar a few months back in Personal Issues. A few mentioned house insurance and public liability insurance. I don't know a whole lot about it, maybe something to check that your childminder has this.

With 4 children around the place, bangs, scrapes and falls are inevitable

You don't want to hear about issues and medical bills when it's too late
Again, I don't own a house and don't know house insurance. But I know a bit about public liabilty insurance

And my post is a bit off topic

Count Dooku

gandalf wrote: »

I agree with you on one thing, Major reform does need to happen.

Main advantage of black economy that it can save private sector worker from infinite tax increases in order to subsidize inefficiency and laziness in public sector
If government will think that it can take from people as much money as civil servants will decide, then reform will never happen
Black economy will put a barrier between incompetence in public sector together with populism of politicians and ordinary workers pockets
When government will realise that tax increases are not bringing more money, then it will have stop

Tipp Man wrote: »

We have some of the highest social welfare in the world, what the hell is unfair about it??

Because main purpose of so high welfare is to preserve corrupted politicians from anger of people

Tipp Man wrote: »

People who actively particpate in the black economy shouldn't be given a vote IMO.

Typical logic of public servant, because it will be more logical to start from people who abuse the system, such as corrupted politicians and welfare fraudsters

whiteonion wrote: »

Seems many people want social services and infrastructure yet they don't want to pay the taxes for it. :rolleyes:

People, who want social services usually don't pay for it

The_Thing

Let they who have not availed of or benefitted from the "Black" economy in one way or another cast the first stone.

The_Thing

Count Dooku wrote: »

Main advantage of black economy that it can save private sector worker from infinite tax increases in order to subsidize inefficiency and laziness in public sector
If government will think that it can take from people as much money as civil servants will decide, then reform will never happen
Black economy will put a barrier between incompetence in public sector together with populism of politicians and ordinary workers pockets
When government will realise that tax increases are not bringing more money, then it will have stop

Typical public-sector bashing bull**** from one of the major producers.

Rabidlamb

Black economy is great, it got my attic insulated & floored, my patio done, both my bathrooms tiled, my carpets shampooed ..... etc.

You feel more a mug in the current climate if you go through the books on any nixer labour. Whats 21% between friends.

If you honestly think that any of my contribution would find it's way to education, health or better services I'd be the first to contribute, as I was in the past.
Instead it will go to service bank debt which we made ourselves voluntary subject to that will never be repaid & will have to be written off in the future anyway.

Cut & paste section for your ease of response:
(1) If everyone had your view the country wouldn't function.
(2) Your attitude is a disgrace & will do nothing to repair broken Ireland.
(3) I'm disgusted by your public admittance of illegal behavior.

ardmacha

Count Dooku can you say that you have not received an education, that you do not use the public road or crap down a public sewer from time to time? Using these facilities without paying for them is theft.

Count Dooku

ardmacha wrote: »

Count Dooku can you say that you have not received an education, that you do not use the public road or crap down a public sewer from time to time? Using these facilities without paying for them is theft.

Do you mean that people who don't pay any taxes, such as OAPs or welfare recipients must be excluded from state services?:rolleyes:
Main consumers of taxpayers money don't contribute much and main purpose of taxes is not pay for services, which anyway will be used by somebody else, but pay for opportunity to earn money.
if state doesn't provide opportunity to earn mony anymore, but instead is wasting money to pay expenses FF senators or debts NAMA developers, then moving to black economy is only way to protest against corruption of political elite and incompetence of public sector
i.e. black economy is first sign that something wrong is going within state

Less taxes paid will mean that alliance between political elite and public sector will become weaker and very soon we will learn more about politicians expenses and corruption,
Less taxes paid will mean that will mean that more people will be forced to pay more taxes and apathy to state affairs will be replaced by more closer watch how taxpayers money spent

If zero tolerance approach will be not enforced to those who abuse the system, then black economy will only grow

digme

gandalf wrote: »

Do you drive on the road?
Do you, your friends or relatives have children going to schools?
Do you, your friends or relatives need to go to the hospital ever?
Do you want a police force to maintain order (to some degree!)?
Do you need social welfare if you ever lose your job and need to find a new one?

If the answer is yes to any of these or any similar questions then you should maybe hire the A-TEAM

danbohan

conorhal wrote: »

My thinking is, that's how Greece ended up being the third world sh1thole that it's become, nobody paid tax, every job was cash in hand and nothing got done without a bribe.
I think that you'll find that any successful economy with good social services has a low level of black economy activity.

and what made ireland a third world ****hole ? , be careful with your name calling , i mean we are all beggars together after all

alan85

When I say I am pro black economy btw, that's not to say I pay no taxes. If I go into a shop I pay VAT etc. If I get a regular job I have no choice but to pay tax. What I'm saying is that when you can and it suits both parties then there's the conundrum.

For me, it's pro black economy. I don't think the added taxes in recent and future budgets are going to improve roads, healthcare, class sizes, water pipes or sewage system.

The infrastructure of this country is stagnant now. It has to be continually improved and maintained to justify taxes and increased taxes at that! So why pay more taxes if you're seeing no benefit?

And don't get me wrong. I am the most patriotic person you'll meet. I'm pro Irish language, sport, music etc. I want to see this country be successful. But I think for us to benefit we must hurt the system that f***ed it all up in the first place and make it change.

BeeDI

Tipp Man wrote: »

Why are you being so open about being a thief?? Yes because if you believe in the black economy then you are robbing from me and every other law/tax abiding citizen in this country.

Can you justify why I need to pay higher taxes because you think you are above paying tax or don't agree with how its spent??

As for your above point well quite frankly they are a load of crap

• We have 5 or 6 tolls in the entire country - 5 or 6 tolls which have given us the best roads in the country
• The country is broke - do you expect us to have the best healthcare system in the world while we are broke??
• We have some of the highest social welfare in the world, what the hell is unfair about it??

People who actively particpate in the black economy shouldn't be given a vote IMO.

Watching incompetent ministers and TD's retire at relatively young age, on huge lump sums and huge pensions, makes it perfectly acceptable for Joe and Mary Soap to do what the have to do in order survive and rear their family in my opinion.

whiteonion

The Greeks have a very big informal sector. Greece is not able to collect as much tax as it should and it has landed them into a world of sh*t.

ART6

No responsible citizen can be in favour of a black economy, but perhaps the existence of one is understandable when the politicians have been running their own one for many years and funding it with graft, corruption, brown envelopes, unvouchered expenses and massive pay-offs, with outrageous pensions funded by the idiots who paid their taxes.:mad:

zig

Rabidlamb wrote: »

Black economy is great, it got my attic insulated & floored, my patio done, both my bathrooms tiled, my carpets shampooed ..... etc.

You feel more a mug in the current climate if you go through the books on any nixer labour. Whats 21% between friends.

If you honestly think that any of my contribution would find it's way to education, health or better services I'd be the first to contribute, as I was in the past.
Instead it will go to service bank debt which we made ourselves voluntary subject to that will never be repaid & will have to be written off in the future anyway.

Cut & paste section for your ease of response:
(1) If everyone had your view the country wouldn't function.
(2) Your attitude is a disgrace & will do nothing to repair broken Ireland.
(3) I'm disgusted by your public admittance of illegal behavior.

you knowing the answer to your post doesnt make the answer wrong.
tbh, if your attitude represents the general thinking of the country, then its not a country worth arguing about.

EastTexas

Yo, just a perspective, from someone who has never been to Ireland, though I very much hope to visit your beautiful green isle.

Over 50% of the German domestic economy is under the hand theses days.
Which has resulted in armies of bureaucrats patrolling private citizens for the smallest amounts of undeclared income and on occasion raiding small business?
An added drain of taxpayer money by having to pay “ the income detectives” without addressing the root of the problem.
Whilst the Government is loosing much needed tax revenue regardless how draconian the measures, because it makes more sense to cheat.

Problem: the cost of providing a basic service or conducting small business is so high in Germany, because of the bureaucracy and taxes attached, that many don’t have another choice short of working them selves into debt or at best could hope to break even, which is not much of an incentive to bust your hump.

For example, someone could give guitar lessons for 12, -to 15,- an hr under the hand and with that price point attract enough students to make a living.
If he did this legitimately and meet all the requirements of mandatory insurances, accounting protocol, fees, 19% VAT and taxes, he would have to charge 25, - for ½ an hr minimum.
Not a price point where the average teacher could hope to attract enough students to make a living and less opportunity for butting young musicians with limited funds.
The same goes for anything from plumbers, hairdressers, babysitters and personal care givers for the elderly.

IMHO, it would be fiscally more prudent for the state to permit a little guy to carve out a living on his own, with a small tax burden and exempt him from overbearing unnecessary regulation.
Rather than him ending up government assistance/ welfare (which is not in the interest of the government or his fellow citizens) solely because there is no viable and legal avenue for him to accomplish that.
In the end, everybody participating in an economy has to pay some taxes and follow some guidelines, but the burden of that should not exceed personal earning capacity.

By not recognizing the root of the problem and continuing to take a hard line, 2010 again marks a record year for personal and small business bankruptcies in Germany despite a trade surplus and record profits of their large corporations.

usamaoreilly

Just finished my first week working in the black economy...Never thought I would see the day...BUT IT WAS SWEET!...The money I earned went straight ino my pocket,none of it went to make sure the multi billionaires of Europe and elsewher were not upset by having to loose a few Euros of interest from our failed banks....I have paid a fortune into this country for years only to have my entitlement slashed when I needed it most..SO I do not feel ONE BIT GUILTY!

srsly78

Short-sightedness is what landed us in this mess in the first place. Reading this thread makes me despair for my country. The OP and supporters should stop stealing oxygen tbh.

jimmycrackcorm

usamaoreilly wrote: »

Just finished my first week working in the black economy...Never thought I would see the day...BUT IT WAS SWEET!...The money I earned went straight ino my pocket,none of it went to make sure the multi billionaires of Europe and elsewher were not upset by having to loose a few Euros of interest from our failed banks....I have paid a fortune into this country for years only to have my entitlement slashed when I needed it most..SO I do not feel ONE BIT GUILTY!

Will you feel guilty if you have to go to hospital after an accident and realise that the rest of us are paying for you. I'd feel more aggrieved about you scamming me than about the bankers because you are throwing it in my face.

hinault

usamaoreilly wrote: »

Just finished my first week working in the black economy...Never thought I would see the day...BUT IT WAS SWEET!...The money I earned went straight ino my pocket,none of it went to make sure the multi billionaires of Europe and elsewher were not upset by having to loose a few Euros of interest from our failed banks....I have paid a fortune into this country for years only to have my entitlement slashed when I needed it most..SO I do not feel ONE BIT GUILTY!

I can see your point of view to a certain extent.
Having paid taxes and PRSI, when you needed support from this State it wasn't there.
I can see why someone might decide to avail of the black economy.

However, I am a law abiding citizen and perhaps I am a mug also but I feel that paying my tax is something I should do as a citizen.

Aard

I don't think there's many of us who are 100% pro black economy. But let's be pragmatic about it: one of the big problems with the economy is not a lack of money, but the lack of flow of money. The black economy facilitates this greatly. While it doesn't bring in direct taxes, it does have the positive effect of money moving. Stagnant money is only worth something to a couple of people, whereas money being spent (taxed or not) is beneficial to many.

Most of the black spending going on, I imagine, is in two areas: trades (plumbers, electricians, etc.) and training (piano lessons, school grinds, etc.) The first group generally have a company structure set up, so they don't really have an excuse not to charge VAT. OTOH, the second group would find it too dificult to set up such a structure and just not bother at all. Then money that could start flowing, doesn't. And we're back to square one.

At any rate, you don't need to start charging VAT to your customers until you bring in over €36,000 iirc. How many grinds teachers manage that? Declaring it for income tax is another story. Because of PAYE, I'd say that most people don't have a clue how to fill in the relevant form to declare such income. And even if they were told, I can imagine a lot of them being afraid to do so.

The solution might be to make small-time trading easier, and more transparent. You shouldn't have to do a "start your own business" course to be able to give classes at home.

At the end of the day, though, if the choice is between black economy and flowing capital, or declared economy and stagnant capital, I'll choose the former.

flynnlives

I was raised with good morals, respect for others and of course respect for myself.

If i was in Harney's, Biffo's, Dempseys, Berties position would i be taking the pension packages they are getting, NO I WOULDNT!

WHY NOT? see my first sentence

because they have screwed the system does it make it alright for me to do it? no

See the difference is, they are scum, i am not.

DoesNotCompute

Aard wrote: »

At any rate, you don't need to start charging VAT to your customers until you bring in over €36,000 iirc. How many grinds teachers manage that? Declaring it for income tax is another story. Because of PAYE, I'd say that most people don't have a clue how to fill in the relevant form to declare such income. And even if they were told, I can imagine a lot of them being afraid to do so.

I would argue (without sounding like an advert for the Revenue Commissioners) that it's easier than ever before. Revenue have an online system now, whereby you can claim tax credits and declare income earned. It's a lot easier than filling out a tax form every year.

alan85

Short-sightedness is what landed us in this mess in the first place. Reading this thread makes me despair for my country. The OP and supporters should stop stealing oxygen tbh.

Short-sightedness?! What do you call the government towing the European line on bondholders?! The country is in dire straits... Italy is pleading for help from EU to help it with a few thousand Tunisian migrants in Lampedusa. We'd have caused similar concerns in countries only we have rights to travel. Your blindness to reality on the ground and content to go on paying unservicable debts is what causes me despair. Really does. I can't help getting angry when I see that gob*hite Enda Kenny 'cause I know he's no different to what's going out (he'll probably be worse) and the crisis will only deepen as was predicted by Prof. Morgan Kelly when the guarantee was first brought in... If anything the black economy is helping! At least it's not wealth leaving the country. It circulates that bit more...

EastTexas

Black Economy is a derogatory term when in reality it is nothing more but a person taking responsibility and generating their own Keep by working for a living
That is a far greater contribution to the economy and fellow citizens than living on the dole taking handouts, thus there is nothing “black/negative ” about it because it’s not a drain but a taking part in the economy.
Who ever earns that money will spend it on someone else and it will circulate.
Is it contrary to the law? Yes
O K.
Then why is not contrary to the law when the government uses the high taxes and social contributions previously paid in good faith for security and blows them on “Ponzi schemes” leaving the citizens high and dry holding the bag/ dept they the government incurred by being irresponsible and self-serving?
Perhaps the law needs to questioned then, since it does not serve both parties.

This is not a tit for tat situation or an pro or against “ black economy” but about balance and mutual accountability.
And weather it is healthy for a society to give government that much power/ money/ high proportion of your earnings with such a poor track record.

We got that same conversation going on in the US all the time.
How much trust and responsibility should we relinquish to the government?
Are we primarily responsible for ourselves as a society or is government responsible for us and if to which extent is healthy to maintain balance, accountability and prosperity for citizens and government.