Barroso slaps joe down

ArtSmart

ouch

http://breakingnews.ie/ireland/furious-barroso-rounds-on-mep-joe-higgins-489975.html

wrote:

Mr Higgins, speaking in a debate in the European Parliament in Strasbourg, went on: “It is a mechanism to make working class people throughout Europe pay for the crisis of a broken financial system and a crisis-ridden European capitalism.”

He accused Mr Barroso and EU Council President Herman Van Rompuy of effectively transferring tens of billions of euros of private bad debts “on to the shoulders of the Irish people”, adding: “Far from being a bail-out, your International Monetary Fund/EU intervention in Ireland is a mechanism to make vassals of Irish taxpayers to the European banks.”

Mr Higgins continued: “You are destroying our services and the living standards of our people.

“Your Financial Stability Mechanism (which needs MEPs’ approval to become a permanent fund in future), is a vicious weapon dictated by the markets, masquerading as something benign. We on the left in Ireland will insist that it goes to a referendum of the Irish people before it is passed.”

A furious Mr Barroso retorted: “To the distinguished member of this Parliament who comes from Ireland, who asked a question suggesting that the problems of Ireland were created by Europe, let me tell you: the problems of Ireland were created by the irresponsible financial behaviour of some Irish institutions, and by the lack of supervision in the Irish market.

“Europe is now part of the solution…It is trying to support Ireland. But it was not Europe that created this fiscally irresponsible situation, and this financially irresponsible behaviour.

“It is important to know where the responsibility lies. This is why it is important that those of us – and this is clearly the majority – who believe in European ideals, are able as much as possible to have a common response.”

d'aul europeans aint buying that one. (and furious the bauld Barro was)

Flimbos

Heard this on the radio earlier, they were really having a go at each other.

Would it be really cynical of me to say this sounds like pre-election noises from Joe??

ArtSmart

Flimbos wrote: »

Heard this on the radio earlier, they were really having a go at each other.

Would it be really cynical of me to say this sounds like pre-election noises from Joe??

i think we're all past the cynical stage at this point...

in truth, i'd say the point he's making is that international banks/investors invested in Irish banks knowing the situation.

but Christ, 90% of the madness was home grown Paddy (the plastered)

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

saywhatyousee

ArtSmart wrote: »

ouch

http://breakingnews.ie/ireland/furious-barroso-rounds-on-mep-joe-higgins-489975.html



d'aul europeans aint buying that one. (and furious the bauld Barro was)

joe is bang on the money if you ask me (no pun intended)

BlaasForRafa

Joe didn't actually say the problem was created by europe as Barroso says "To the distinguished member of this Parliament who comes from Ireland, who asked a question suggesting that the problems of Ireland were created by Europe" but they are using the problem to punish the country and by extension, the people of Ireland.

Also, perhaps Mr Barroso has forgotten that the Eurozone interest rate was kept low since its formation to help the sluggish economies of Germany and France and these artificially low interest rates were just like throwing petrol on the fire when it comes to the Irish property market. Just when we needed high interest rates we were forced to have low ones.

Now, that dosen't excuse the greed of the banks, developers and property speculators and it dosen't excuse the lack of regulation and the stupidity of our government but europe didn't do us any favours in the last 10 years and then they kick us when we're down.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

femur61

Yes we as a country did get easy, cheap money but we created a lot of our own problems. Terrible begrude of me but a lot got above themselves and thought they were infallible. We as a couple always saved for a rainy day, and never beyond our means. Now unemployed but have enough money to survive, so why couldn't people have the foresight to put a little by for a rainy day. Is not easy money but what we did with it, a lot of people acted like teenagers discovering sex for the first time.

Joe Higgins is correct in one aspect but it was our fault what we did with the money.

Father Damo

I wish he had directed it more at the Irish people, said something like "why are you trying to blame Brian Cowen for a problem that was largely caused by Joe Publics born between circa 1950 and 1978 taking out loans for their 3rd car in two years, the Bulgarian apartment and the two flats for renting to the Poles".

Honestly. Fianna Fail are like the alcoholic parents of a kid in the court system- they neglected those they were meant to guide, but fcuk the people were hardly innocent.

BlaasForRafa

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Read my post, thats what I said. We can't blame europe but they aren't white knights either.

outandabout

Fair play to Barrosso. It's good to see a eurocrat show a bit of passion for a change.

Any chance of him running as an Independent in our general election?

loldog

outandabout wrote: »

Fair play to Barrosso. It's good to see a eurocrat show a bit of passion for a change.

Any chance of him running as an Independent in our general election?

That's ironic considering the fact that he's not been elected to that position. Not in any meaningful way.

.

jmayo

saywhatyousee wrote: »

joe is bang on the money if you ask me (no pun intended)

He is kinda right.
As other posters have said we (as in our banks and politicans) caused our own bubble, over spending, bad loan strategies, etc, but the way that EU/ECB are screwing us in the supposed bailout is entirely to repay the Europena banks who were stupid enough to lend wrecklessly to our banks in the first place.

loldog wrote: »

That's ironic considering the fact that he's not been elected to that position. Not in any meaningful way.

.

I wonder will the little portugese gentleman be quiet so vociferous if the EU/ECB screw Portugal in their future bailout ?

Bottle_of_Smoke

Flimbos wrote: »

Heard this on the radio earlier, they were really having a go at each other.

Would it be really cynical of me to say this sounds like pre-election noises from Joe??

No he's always coming out with stuff like this. Only Irish politician to complain about diplock courts in the north.

Barroso dodged like a coward, Higgins asked why the Irish people should pay for the european banks. He didn't say Europe caused the problems. Barroso then went on to say Irish institutions behaved recklessly. Well cool story bro, but that doesn't justify the Irish taxpayer taking the hit.

Tipp Man

Ah Barroso is dead right

Anybody see the latest government expenditure figures and how they compare with the government income figures? I think one is about 20 billion bigger than the other for last year - why is this continously and consistently not mentioned or forgotten?

I think the Irish people are afraid of the reality the country has found itself in (through shocking governance) - they'll take the easy option and blame everything on the banks

Bottle_of_Smoke

Tipp Man wrote: »

Ah Barroso is dead right

Anybody see the latest government expenditure figures and how they compare with the government income figures? I think one is about 20 billion bigger than the other for last year - why is this continously and consistently not mentioned or forgotten?

I think the Irish people are afraid of the reality the country has found itself in (through shocking governance) - they'll take the easy option and blame everything on the banks

I would disagree on the grounds that there is nothing I could have personally done to stop the insanity that went on, therefore I shouldn't be expected to personally pay for that insanity.

johngalway

Joe is one of the protest brigade. He'll never be in power, neither will that insufferable Boyd Barret, so they can say what they think people want to hear without having to back it up in the real world.

The partially raped pension fund won't fund the country indefinitely. Wealth tax is a joke, as wealthy people and their companies will simply upsticks and move, it's the only sensible thing for them to do.

I've no time for the fringe loony left.

Tipp Man

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

I would disagree on the grounds that there is nothing I could have personally done to stop the insanity that went on, therefore I shouldn't be expected to personally pay for that insanity.

WTF????

Are you actually serious?

Bottle_of_Smoke

Tipp Man wrote: »

WTF????

Are you actually serious?

Banks gave stupid loans to people. People can't pay them back. Bailout now required. Where do I come into this equation?

Coillte_Bhoy

Tipp Man wrote: »

Anybody see the latest government expenditure figures and how they compare with the government income figures? I think one is about 20 billion bigger than the other for last year - why is this continously and consistently not mentioned or forgotten?

Wow, we have a €20 million deficit and it's continously ignored??? Where have you been for the last 3 years?:rolleyes:

P. Breathnach

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Banks gave stupid loans to people. People can't pay them back. Bailout now required. Where do I come into this equation?

Conscription. In the general interest. Live with it, because you don't have a real choice.

Bottle_of_Smoke

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Conscription. In the general interest. Live with it, because you don't have a real choice.

Well aside from the one that begins with an E

T runner

Flimbos wrote: »

Heard this on the radio earlier, they were really having a go at each other.

Would it be really cynical of me to say this sounds like pre-election noises from Joe??

He seemed to get a lot more support from teh audience than Barosso. He has hit some nail on the head.

irishh_bob

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

by the same token german banks willingly ( thier own population were only saving ) lent to irish banks during that period , the recent bailout was by proxy a bailout of german and french banks , why else do you think the eurocrats were in such a tizzy , europeans banks were up to thier necks in the banking mess here , 1st time in my life i agreed with joe higgins , we should have dealt exclusivley with the IMF , got a 3% interest rate and let the banks go

OhNoYouDidn't

Christ, how we could have done with him in the Dail asking these types of questions recently...

Macha

irishh_bob wrote: »

by the same token german banks willingly ( thier own population were only saving ) lent to irish banks during that period , the recent bailout was by proxy a bailout of german and french banks , why else do you think the eurocrats were in such a tizzy , europeans banks were up to thier necks in the banking mess here , 1st time in my life i agreed with joe higgins , we should have dealt exclusivley with the IMF , got a 3% interest rate and let the banks go

The European banks did not borrow as much as was reported in the media and as responsible banks do, they hedged their investments.

Why on earth would the IMF have given us 3%? There is no economic logic in this claim.

The bond markets were effectively shut off for the Irish government and we needed to borrow from somewhere. The EU/IMF loan facility gave us a place to borrow from at much lower rates than anyone else was prepared to. Moreover, we are not bound to borrow any more than we wish to and can return to the bond markets whenever we choose to.

In all of this, has anyone ever stopped to ask what it is like for the European politicians to have to explain to their electorate why they're lending huge amounts of money to Ireland? We are far too insular and self-centred in our take on European politics.

sligopark

Whilst I know Barroso comes from a Maoist Communist background much like Joe's socialist ideology and its strange now to see them argue now from such polar opposites - my question is how did Barroso become EU President?

Silverado

Twenty years ago if I went into a bank to borrow money to build on a back kitchen they would have to have full information as to what it was for, what security I had to offer and to prove that I could pay it back.

If I didn't have enough money to finish the job and had to ask the bank again they would ask for even more information as to where the money went and what I needed the additional loan for.

If I was actually wasting the money in the bookies they would tell me that I can't have any more because I went beyond my limit. This way the bank kept me under control and forced me to live within my means.

However if the bank just kept giving me more money and ignored the possibility that I was wasting the money then eventually I will break the bank. Who is at fault - we both are. I should have not been so stupid but even worse the bank was even more stupid because they destroyed their business and lost the money of their depositers.

To follow Mr Barroso's logic the blame is all mine, mea culpa x 3.

The moral of the story is - it takes a good man to run a bank.

blue_steel

Tipp Man wrote: »

Anybody see the latest government expenditure figures and how they compare with the government income figures? I think one is about 20 billion bigger than the other for last year - why is this continously and consistently not mentioned or forgotten?

And there's me taking a 4 pay cuts in the last two years to tackle this "forgotten" deficit. God help us when they remember it.

20Cent

Barroso didn't slap anyone down, he was rattled by Higgins. Finally people standing up for Ireland, need to send a few more like Joe over there.

zig

Flimbos wrote: »

Heard this on the radio earlier, they were really having a go at each other.

Would it be really cynical of me to say this sounds like pre-election noises from Joe??

yea it would be cynical alright, in normal circumstances Id agree with you, but Joe has been vocal about this kind of stuff , plus many issues for quite some time.
Im no socialist party supporter but ive great admiration for Higgins. He doesnt behave like a normal Irish politician.

I might also add that the reason the bond interest rates shot up hence forcing us to get money elsewhere was because there was no trust in our ability to pay it back, and why is that? Because the banks debt was attached to our sovereign debt, everything was fine until the great anglo black hole developed and the worries reagarding the rest of our banks. And who left themselves exposed to these banks? Senior bondholders, ECB, German/French banks.

Our banking crisis should by rights be seperate from our economic deficit crisis.

ArtSmart

20Cent wrote: »

Barroso didn't slap anyone down, he was rattled by Higgins. Finally people standing up for Ireland, need to send a few more like Joe over there.

it felt like a slap.

yeah sure we've been penalised but for the love of god is anyone really saying that Ireland (not me of course, or you, of course) isn't responsible for the mess we're in?

that mammy left the cookie jar open and on a low shelf and well what'd she expect, after all, we're only children?

is that the case????

personally i didnt buy/sell/ lose/ or make during the roaring naughties, but whether one did or not, the country was awash with money. end of.

P. Breathnach

ArtSmart wrote: »

... the country was awash with money...

I'm feeling nostalgic about that expression. Haven't heard much of it recently.

20Cent

ArtSmart wrote: »

it felt like a slap.

yeah sure we've been penalised but for the love of god is anyone really saying that Ireland (not me of course, or you, of course) isn't responsible for the mess we're in?

that mammy left the cookie jar open and on a low shelf and well what'd she expect, after all, we're only children?

is that the case????

personally i didnt buy/sell/ lose/ or make during the roaring naughties, but whether one did or not, the country was awash with money. end of.

Don't hear anyone saying we are not responsible for a lot of it, but certainly not all of it. We should not be bailing out bondholders who gambled and lost. Barroso want Irish workers to pay for stupid investments by foreign banks to cover his own arse. No way.

ascanbe

20Cent wrote: »

Barroso didn't slap anyone down, he was rattled by Higgins. Finally people standing up for Ireland, need to send a few more like Joe over there.

Exactly.
Barroso was extremely rattled; hence the vehemence of his repudiation.
People only get het-up like that when they know someone is touching on the truth.
The great fear of those running the show in Europe is that more and more people will come to recognise this truth.

Firefox11

Higgins is an embarrassment to this country. It was only a matter of time that he made a fool of himself.

sligopark

Firefox11 wrote: »

Higgins is an embarrassment to this country. It was only a matter of time that he made a fool of himself.

in comparison to ..... whom exactly?

goat2

Firefox11 wrote: »

Higgins is an embarrassment to this country. It was only a matter of time that he made a fool of himself.

higgins is the only person who is speaking for this country, he is telling it as it is, he was the only one who predicted that we would end up in the shambles we are in, he was shouting this a few yrs ago, people thought he was off his top, but he could see right through the lot, he is the only minister in this country that went to jail for his beleifs, yet there are people in this country not in jail for breaking the country,,LONG MAY JOE GO ON, AND FIGHT FOR US.

sligopark

goat2 wrote: »

he is the only minister in this country that went to jail for his beleifs

Liam Lawlor

ArtSmart

all right. let's talk % so.

what % of responsibility does Ireland bare?

I'm going with 90%



( i like joe, btw, but FFS - the neck!)

sligopark

ArtSmart wrote: »

all right. let's talk % so.

what % of responsibility do "The ff/bankster/developer Gang" bare?

I'm going with 110%

goat2

sligopark wrote: »

Liam Lawlor

so you do not remember the time joe higgins was imprisoned because he stood with the people who could not afford to pay rubbish collection charges, as for liam lawlor, he stood for himself, did he not put on a fine bonfire rather that carry all his paperwork to the recyclers

sligopark

goat2 wrote: »

so you do not remember the time joe higgins was imprisoned because he stood with the people who could not afford to pay rubbish collection charges, as for liam lawlor, he stood for himself, did he not put on a fine bonfire rather that carry all his paperwork to the recyclers

yes I do - it was irony and no one can deny that Liam Lawlor went to jail for his beliefs "my pockets first - f_ck the rest of ye!"

the groutch

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Also, perhaps Mr Barroso has forgotten that the Eurozone interest rate was kept low since its formation to help the sluggish economies of Germany and France and these artificially low interest rates were just like throwing petrol on the fire when it comes to the Irish property market. Just when we needed high interest rates we were forced to have low ones.

you read my mind. with the Irish Central Bank in charge, we would have had an interest rate of 5-6%, which would have made the bubble only half the size it was, and we'd be on the way out the other side now, rather than being bailed out

JustinDee

So what happened in Ireland regarding the economy crashing is Brussels' fault??
Un-flippin-believable.

I remember fully well the Irish government ignoring warnings from the EC regarding its economy and interest rates. I was living abroad at the time and recall watching Charlie McCreevey amongst others telling reporters that 'Ireland' knew what it was doing with its economy blah...blah.

Barroso was exactly right to put the kibosh on the delusion that it was because of outside influences the crash came about.

Scofflaw

the groutch wrote: »

you read my mind. with the Irish Central Bank in charge, we would have had an interest rate of 5-6%, which would have made the bubble only half the size it was, and we'd be on the way out the other side now, rather than being bailed out

Really? Despite the fact that every other policy instrument available was used to exacerbate the boom? Despite the fact that one of the major problems with the Irish Central Bank was that it was politically hamstrung by the government? Despite the fact that bank internationalisation would still have meant that Irish banks could borrow from other countries with lower interest rates? Despite the fact that Iceland, with interest rates of 18%, managed to blow up an even bigger bubble and grow banks so big they couldn't even begin to bail them out when they went pear-shaped?

Also, of course, we could have avoided the bubble inside the euro, and still had low interest rates, if our Central Bank and/or Financial Regulator had enforced prudential lending standards, as some other euro countries did.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Lockstep

Barroso had a point. Most of the problems we see were the result of our woeful banking system, poor consumer decisions and grackler of a government.
The lack of white collar crime enforcement didn't help either.

But in these situations, it's so much easier to blame the EU. Joe has a luxury that FF/FG/Labour and SF don't have; he'll never be in power. SF and Labour are both left wing parties but both are willing to work with others and get into government and so need to stay focussed on what is achievable. The SP isn't willing to work with what they see as capitalists, meaning only the ULA will work with them, a group so small they'll never be in power either.
As such, he can rant and rave, knowing he'll never be forced to make tough decisions.

I'd like to have him in the Dáil as he livens things up and keeps people on their toes but I don't pay him too much heed when he speaks like this.

BlaasForRafa

Scofflaw wrote: »

Really? Despite the fact that every other policy instrument available was used to exacerbate the boom? Despite the fact that one of the major problems with the Irish Central Bank was that it was politically hamstrung by the government? Despite the fact that bank internationalisation would still have meant that Irish banks could borrow from other countries with lower interest rates? Despite the fact that Iceland, with interest rates of 18%, managed to blow up an even bigger bubble and grow banks so big they couldn't even begin to bail them out when they went pear-shaped?

cordially,
Scofflaw

The nature of the Irish crisis was different to the Icelandic one though, Icelands was a crazy level of foreign debt held by the Icelandic banks whereas Irelands crisis was in large part a property boom which could have been dampened by higher interest rates. Higher interest rates should lead to lower consumer demand, thats the rational thinking anyway. Of course not everyone involved in a boom acts rationally...

gizmo555

Scofflaw wrote: »

Also, of course, we could have avoided the bubble inside the euro, and still had low interest rates, if our Central Bank and/or Financial Regulator had enforced prudential lending standards, as some other euro countries did.

Gillian Bowler was on the radio at the weekend asserting that this option was effectively not available to the regulator, because they could not apply such standards to institutions regulated outside Ireland but operating in this market.

It is a fact that it was First Active which introduced 100% mortgages here in 2005, by which time it was a wholly-owned subsidiary of Royal bank of Scotland. That was seen even at the time as a watershed moment in the expansion of the credit/property bubble.

ArtSmart

gizmo555 wrote: »

Gillian Bowler was on the radio at the weekend asserting that this option was effectively not available to the regulator, because they could not apply such standards to institutions regulated outside Ireland but operating in this market.

It is a fact that it was First Active which introduced 100% mortgages here in 2005, by which time it was a wholly-owned subsidiary of Royal bank of Scotland. That was seen even at the time as a watershed moment in the expansion of the credit/property bubble.

fair point, but doesnt matter who opened the cookie jar.

'but ma, you left the cookies on a low shelf. A LOW SHELF!!!!'

(aka the Bart Simpson defence.)

RobbieTheRobber

Scofflaw wrote: »

Really? Despite the fact that every other policy instrument available was used to exacerbate the boom? Despite the fact that one of the major problems with the Irish Central Bank was that it was politically hamstrung by the government? Despite the fact that bank internationalisation would still have meant that Irish banks could borrow from other countries with lower interest rates? Despite the fact that Iceland, with interest rates of 18%, managed to blow up an even bigger bubble and grow banks so big they couldn't even begin to bail them out when they went pear-shaped?

Also, of course, we could have avoided the bubble inside the euro, and still had low interest rates, if our Central Bank and/or Financial Regulator had enforced prudential lending standards, as some other euro countries did.

cordially,
Scofflaw

A recent discussion i had with someone on the subject of the banking collapse in Ireland and previous banking collapses world wide touched upon the subject of a civil servant regulator.

His feeling was that a civil servant or even a human to regulate banking was a flawed concept and that the only true way to regulate effectively the banks was by means of clear legislation. Such as the Glass–Steagall Act which was repelled by Clintons administration in 1999.

He felt that this act had kept in check the banks until its repel and that it was post its repel that the greatest innovation in financial managment came about, and that these innovations within the financial sector were not in the best interests of the people.

Obviously the issue of legal regulation has its own issues as the banking sector having access to so much funding makes them a very effective lobby group in terms of attempting to repel any legislation enacted.