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Where would a surface Luas / BRT alternative to Metro North fit?

  • 19-01-2011 9:11pm
    #1
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 13,991 Mod ✭✭✭✭ monument


    I used to think a BRT or surface Luas was a runner as an alternative to Metro North, but once you look into it there's problems in every direction.

    The people that continue to suggest these as alternative don't seem to understand or care about:
    • the large amount of at grade junctions which would be needed, or, in one case, the large amount of driveways it would pass
    • the traffic volumes on any of the possible routes -- you don't have to like the traffic, but you do have to care about what happens to it. From some, there seems to be a denial that traffic is a problem, but that just shows a blinkered view or lack of knowledge.
    • the state of the current bus lanes on these routes -- large gaps where bus lanes are 'missing' and very small lanes which can hardly cope with the current never mind growing numbers of cyclists. Never mind that these lanes are congested with taxis, buses and coaches.
    • the fact any construction of any such surface lines would cause so much disruption it would make Metro North's expected disruption look tiny -- ABP gave Metro North permission for underground as an alternative to the Ballymun Road cut and cover section because cut and cover is so disruptive, surface is nearly as much so

    Sure, a lot of the above is fixable or can be sorted, but solutions would likely increase the attractiveness of Metro North because it would attract less attacks than BRT or on surface Luas.

    Most attractiveness would also do a far worse job at serving the key locations which the metro is due to serve.

    But I'm still open to anybody with a viable alternative to Metro North -- anybody? And viable needs to be viable politically, economically and practically.
    Tagged:


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,278 ✭✭✭ dowlingm


    What gets my goat when I see people touting "alternatives" is that they never include capacity figures. Metro North's initial capacity is specified at 10k ppdph with scope for 20k. To reach 7k ppdph you'd need a fully segregated route (not gonna happen in the north city) and 120 pax on bendybuses on 2 minute headway.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,858 paulm17781


    monument wrote: »
    I used to think a BRT or surface Luas was a runner as an alternative to Metro North, but once you look into it there's problems in every direction.

    That's been my belief all along. For what MN proposes to do, it is perfect for Dublin. With our narrow bendy roads, you would not be able to replicate the frequency, passenger numbers or speed.

    If BRT really was a runner (especially as an alternative) then why can't exising buses be given dedicated routes with no traffic interference?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,361 mgmt


    monument wrote: »
    I used to think a BRT or surface Luas was a runner as an alternative to Metro North, but once you look into it there's problems in every direction.

    The people that continue to suggest these as alternative don't seem to understand or care about:
    • the large amount of at grade junctions which would be needed, or, in one case, the large amount of driveways it would pass
    • the traffic volumes on any of the possible routes -- you don't have to like the traffic, but you do have to care about what happens to it. From some, there seems to be a denial that traffic is a problem, but that just shows a blinkered view or lack of knowledge.
    • the state of the current bus lanes on these routes -- large gaps where bus lanes are 'missing' and very small lanes which can hardly cope with the current never mind growing numbers of cyclists. Never mind that these lanes are congested with taxis, buses and coaches.
    • the fact any construction of any such surface lines would cause so much disruption it would make Metro North's expected disruption look tiny -- ABP gave Metro North permission for underground as an alternative to the Ballymun Road cut and cover section because cut and cover is so disruptive, surface is nearly as much so

    Sure, a lot of the above is fixable or can be sorted, but solutions would likely increase the attractiveness of Metro North because it would attract less attacks than BRT or on surface Luas.

    Most attractiveness would also do a far worse job at serving the key locations which the metro is due to serve.

    But I'm still open to anybody with a viable alternative to Metro North -- anybody? And viable needs to be viable politically, economically and practically.

    We have BRT already.

    Swords Express.
    Dublin Bus 748.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,361 mgmt


    mgmt wrote: »
    We have BRT already.

    Swords Express.
    Dublin Bus 748.

    Also we have a decent enough commuter train serving the Drumcondra area.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 13,991 Mod ✭✭✭✭ monument


    mgmt wrote: »
    We have BRT already.

    Swords Express.
    Dublin Bus 748.

    No, we don't. The Swords Express and the 748 are not BRT -- these don't have the frequency, the capacity, the segregation, only off-bus payment, or BRT quality stops.

    They do a good job at what they are designed to do, but that's not BRT.

    They also only serve a fraction of the route.

    mgmt wrote: »
    Also we have a decent enough commuter train serving the Drumcondra area.

    Indeed, although Irish Rail should, can and hopefully will be improving their service. Metro North at Drumcondra is important because of how it will improve the network.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,361 mgmt


    monument wrote: »
    No, we don't. The Swords Express and the 748 are not BRT -- these don't have the frequency, the capacity, the segregation, only off-bus payment, or BRT quality stops.

    They do a good job at what they are designed to do, but that's not BRT.

    They also only serve a fraction of the route.

    The frequency and capacity to Swords and Airport reflect the commercial reality. Buses every couple of minutes from the Airport when combined with 747, 746, aircoach and other buses. Segregated on the M1 and Port Tunnel.

    Granted not great options for DCU and Ballymun.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,361 mgmt


    mgmt wrote: »
    The frequency and capacity to Swords and Airport reflect the commercial reality. Buses every couple of minutes from the Airport when combined with 747, 746, aircoach and other buses. Segregated on the M1 and Port Tunnel.

    Granted not great options for DCU and Ballymun.

    Here is the Dublin Bus 4 route. It follows mostly the Metro North line:

    http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Examples/Google-Map/?routeNumber=4%20&direction=O&towards=Monkstown+Avenue

    From Harristown to City Centre takes 26min. I'm guessing it would add very little to start from the airport.

    City Centre to Swords takes 30min on the Swords Express.

    You are only saving 5min by taking the Metro North.


  • Registered Users Posts: 304 ✭✭ runway16


    mgmt wrote: »
    Here is the Dublin Bus 4 route. It follows mostly the Metro North line:

    http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Examples/Google-Map/?routeNumber=4%20&direction=O&towards=Monkstown+Avenue

    From Harristown to City Centre takes 26min. I'm guessing it would add very little to start from the airport.

    City Centre to Swords takes 30min on the Swords Express.

    You are only saving 5min by taking the Metro North.

    Come on now mgmt.. you know well that 26 minutes is an "outside rush hour" number....

    I'll take a metro over a bus any day - and thats also the point, people will switch to rail in greater numbers than will switch from Car to Bus...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,361 mgmt


    runway16 wrote: »
    Come on now mgmt.. you know well that 26 minutes is an "outside rush hour" number....

    I'll take a metro over a bus any day - and thats also the point, people will switch to rail in greater numbers than will switch from Car to Bus...

    Yes, that is the off-peak time for the route 4 bus. However, it takes about 25mins max on the 748 at all times of the day by using the port tunnel. I am just referring to the route 4 because it serves DCU, Drumcondra, Ballymun etc.


    Granted, rail is a more appealing mode of transport. But if the authorities in this city got off their arse and made bus better we would not need a metro.
    • Have more than 1 door on the bus
    • European ticket validating machines on the bus rather than paying the driver
    • GPS tracking apps (see where your bus is)
    • Integrated ticketing
    • Private competition
    • etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 304 ✭✭ runway16


    I agree that bus is not as attractive as it could be, although I question if we can survive with just busses.

    We simply need a core railway network. We dont yet have one. If BRT was an answer, every city would have adopted it, because it is cheap, but they have not.

    Why do transport planners favour rail?

    All those advocating this as a cheap solution need to ask themselves that.

    Knowing the Northside as I do, I fail to see where exactly this BRT will run without requiring extensive elevated sections that would simply be unpalatable to those living along the route. If you are going to build structures like that, you may as well just put a train on them anyway.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,361 mgmt


    runway16 wrote: »
    Knowing the Northside as I do, I fail to see where exactly this BRT will run without requiring extensive elevated sections that would simply be unpalatable to those living along the route. If you are going to build structures like that, you may as well just put a train on them anyway.

    Yeah you can't build segregated corridors in Drumcondra etc. However, I dont understand why they can't use the old Broadstone line. Even if they just use it before the luas bxd is ready to be worked on. Build a bridge over the railway and tarmac the old railway cutting. Simple. (might have to put in guide rails?)

    http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&ll=53.386809,-6.2677&spn=0.040747,0.130119&t=h&z=13&msid=200832783753934675596.00049a4033bac397e31f7


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭ Zebra3


    mgmt wrote: »
    Also we have a decent enough commuter train serving the Drumcondra area.

    I disagree.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 13,991 Mod ✭✭✭✭ monument


    mgmt wrote: »
    The frequency and capacity to Swords and Airport reflect the commercial reality. Buses every couple of minutes from the Airport when combined with 747, 746, aircoach and other buses. Segregated on the M1 and Port Tunnel.

    Granted not great options for DCU and Ballymun.

    They are express buses, that's the reality here. The gap ridden bus understructure is also the reality here.

    Why are you comparing express buses with a metro?

    mgmt wrote: »
    Here is the Dublin Bus 4 route. It follows mostly the Metro North line:...

    From Harristown to City Centre takes 26min. I'm guessing it would add very little to start from the airport.

    City Centre to Swords takes 30min on the Swords Express.

    You are only saving 5min by taking the Metro North.

    ...Yes, that is the off-peak time for the route 4 bus. However, it takes about 25mins max on the 748 at all times of the day by using the port tunnel. I am just referring to the route 4 because it serves DCU, Drumcondra, Ballymun etc.

    If you want to talk reality, forget about the 4 taking 26mins. Heavy traffic in between the Ballymun Road and the Botanic Road or at Phibsboro or closer to town and it's brought to its knees. Anyway, the no 4 is nowhere to be seen most of the time, the route has been slashed and it does not even seem to be sticking to its Network Direct timetable all the time. And the 4 does not serve Drumcondra btw.

    The Swords Express is an express bus, it's not comparable to a Metro. An express only allows people to go from A to B and maybe also C, a metro allows them to go to A, B, C, D, E, F, G etc. I'm guessing the Swords Express can also have problems with congestion?

    mgmt wrote: »
    Granted, rail is a more appealing mode of transport. But if the authorities in this city got off their arse and made bus better we would not need a metro.
    • Have more than 1 door on the bus
    • European ticket validating machines on the bus rather than paying the driver
    • GPS tracking apps (see where your bus is)
    • Integrated ticketing
    • Private competition
    • etc.

    GPS and ticketing are doable and apparently on the way, but most Dublin Bus buses no longer have more than one door and private competition has made things worse elsewhere.

    What would be needed is QBCs to be improved.

    But in North Dublin this would require taking massive amounts of road space from the traffic lanes -- a non realistic amount of space at key locations. If people think there's congestion in Dublin now, it would be an understatement afterwards. There would be crying of "bloody murder" day and night -- no TD or councillor in their right minds would try to defend it. Any policing of the measure or of junctions buses would have to cross would be a nightmare. Any real improvements would also need taxi numbers to be cut or banned from the improved QBCs. In some places destruction (of boundary walls, trees, footpaths etc) would also be needed to remove pinch points and parking spaces would have to go and the currently popular parking on footpaths would have to be stopped.

    Metro North sounds easier, more realistic, and more likely to happen this side of oil running out.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,361 mgmt


    busn.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭ Cool Mo D


    mgmt wrote: »
    busn.jpg

    So Ballymun to O'Connell street takes 35 - 40 minutes on the bus. Ballymun to the airport would be another 10 minutes, and O'Connell street to Stephen's green is easily 10 minutes at peak., so airport to Stephen's green is an hour on the bus, while Metro North will do it in one third the time. Sounds pretty good to me.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 13,991 Mod ✭✭✭✭ monument


    Those times are not impressive.

    Anywhere from 22mins to 43mins on one of the routes from Ballymun to O'Connell Street. And from 27mins to 49mins on one of the evening peeks from O'Connell Street to Ballymun. If you need to be somewhere you must always keep the upper amount of time in mind or prepared to be late regularly.

    Metro North is due to have travel times of under 30mins from Swords to the city centre, and under 20mins from the city to the airport.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,221 BrianD


    People aren't really thinking outside the box here. who says that an alternative to MN has to a direct replication of the route by another form of transport?

    There could be implementations of a number of modes and still give us better value that the money that will be spent on the oddity that is MN.

    For example, a surface tram route could serve as far as Ballymun. Swords is just 5km from an existing rail station. Assuming that upgrades to this line would be included in the DU project, it would make perfect sense for a number of local bus routes to be implemented that would connect more parts of Swords to rail.

    There is still opportunities for more express bus services to/from Swords and the airport etc.

    These are just a few examples of a number of projects that could be implemented that would yield more utility and options for the MN route corridor and still have change out of the MN budget. The MN project is fundamentally flawed because it will never have available passengers to match it's potential capacity. It's too expensive a proposition for what is required.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭ Cool Mo D


    BrianD wrote: »

    For example, a surface tram route could serve as far as Ballymun. Swords is just 5km from an existing rail station. Assuming that upgrades to this line would be included in the DU project, it would make perfect sense for a number of local bus routes to be implemented that would connect more parts of Swords to rail.

    Creating a good bus connection to Swords from the rail network is difficult due to the road network, and also there is only a half hourly service on the line to stations north of Howth Junction. There are no upgrades planned for the Northern line with DU either, although it is badly congested, and will need a very expensive 4-tracking at some point. Your suggestion is precisely the kind of half measure that would have to later be fixed with something expensive.

    Metro North is expensive, but it is a rare chance to do a job right the first time, and it will be done, basically forever. There seems to be a Dublin infrastructure disease of doing the bare minimum, such as the original M50 interchanges, the Luas green line not-connecting to any other rail, the failure to remove many simple pinch points on the QBCs, the unsuitable DART terminus in Malahide, level crossings south of Pearse not closed, etc, etc. Spend the money now, get it right.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭ Zebra3


    BrianD wrote: »
    There could be implementations of a number of modes and still give us better value that the money that will be spent on the oddity that is MN.

    For example, a surface tram route could serve as far as Ballymun. Swords is just 5km from an existing rail station. Assuming that upgrades to this line would be included in the DU project, it would make perfect sense for a number of local bus routes to be implemented that would connect more parts of Swords to rail.

    There is still opportunities for more express bus services to/from Swords and the airport etc.

    These are just a few examples of a number of projects that could be implemented that would yield more utility and options for the MN route corridor and still have change out of the MN budget. The MN project is fundamentally flawed because it will never have available passengers to match it's potential capacity. It's too expensive a proposition for what is required.

    How is MN an 'oddity'? :confused:

    'A surface tram route could serve as far as Ballymun'. From Swords or from the city centre?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,361 mgmt


    monument wrote: »
    Those times are not impressive.

    Anywhere from 22mins to 43mins on one of the routes from Ballymun to O'Connell Street. And from 27mins to 49mins on one of the evening peeks from O'Connell Street to Ballymun. If you need to be somewhere you must always keep the upper amount of time in mind or prepared to be late regularly.

    Metro North is due to have travel times of under 30mins from Swords to the city centre, and under 20mins from the city to the airport.

    BTW I got those times from the DTO.

    http://www.nationaltransport.ie/downloads/quality_bus_corridor_2009.pdf

    I wonder what affect Network Direct will have on those times? The maximum time on the 4 is 36mins. Average about 30min to Ballymun at peak.

    You also have to take into account that this is only 7 stops between O'Connell street and Ballymun. While Dublin Bus offers stops every 200m or so. So, how much extra walking time would you need to add to your journey to get to a Metro North stop over Dublin Bus?

    And if Dublin Bus entered the 21st century and improved their service with some of the measures I outlined in this thread these times could decrease further.


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 13,991 Mod ✭✭✭✭ monument


    BrianD wrote: »
    People aren't really thinking outside the box here. who says that an alternative to MN has to a direct replication of the route by another form of transport?

    Nobody has said alternatives need to have a direct replication of the route. But your alternatives are not comparable to Metro North and offer very little utility compared to it...

    BrianD wrote: »
    There could be implementations of a number of modes and still give us better value that the money that will be spent on the oddity that is MN.

    What kind of money for Metro North and any alternative are you basing that on? And what is the value of the alternatives?

    BrianD wrote: »
    For example, a surface tram route could serve as far as Ballymun.

    And what route would this take??? :confused:

    The reason Metro North is going underground is to increase utility. It removed trams from roads and the affects of having to cross so many road and the affects of congestion. Lower disruption at construction and disruption to traffic flow after construction.

    Even ABP requested that tunnelling should be looked at as an option for the Ballymun Road to the M50 as the disruption of cut and cover is large -- surface is nearly as bad and worst post construction.

    BrianD wrote: »
    Swords is just 5km from an existing rail station. Assuming that upgrades to this line would be included in the DU project, it would make perfect sense for a number of local bus routes to be implemented that would connect more parts of Swords to rail.

    From the middle of Swords it is 5km away, but across small and heavily congested roads. And that's only the centre of Swords, other parts are up to and above 7km away, and again most of the same congested small roads. The northern line is congested and will still have problems after Dart upgrades, demand on it will likely continue to grow without adding passengers from Swords to it.

    Utility? Very, very low compared to anything. Sticking with direct buses as we have now would be better.

    BrianD wrote: »
    There is still opportunities for more express bus services to/from Swords and the airport etc.

    Great, but what express buses have to do with an urban light railway I don't know. It's like comparing apples and oranges. As I said already, an express only allows people to go from A to B and maybe also C, a metro allows them to go to A, B, C, D, E, F, G etc, and often as quick or quicker. Metros of the type we're talking about are not affected by congestion, express buses can be.

    Utility? Very low compared to Metro North.

    BrianD wrote: »
    These are just a few examples of a number of projects that could be implemented that would yield more utility and options for the MN route corridor and still have change out of the MN budget.

    As above, these examples would not yield more utility. Most of your options would not serve the corridor, and the first ones (surface tram to Ballymun and bus to the Dart) is not practical at all.

    BrianD wrote: »
    The MN project is fundamentally flawed because it will never have available passengers to match it's potential capacity. It's too expensive a proposition for what is required.

    Never?

    Too expensive based on and compared to what?

    mgmt wrote: »
    BTW I got those times from the DTO.

    http://www.nationaltransport.ie/downloads/quality_bus_corridor_2009.pdf

    I wonder what affect Network Direct will have on those times? The maximum time on the 4 is 36mins. Average about 30min to Ballymun at peak.

    It's still nearly 40mins from O'CS to Ballymun compared to under 20mins from the city to the airport.

    What affect Network Direct will have? The 4 has been ripped to bits with Network Direct. Cuts of 33% weekdays and 66% weekends. Fewer and fewer buses, that's the affect it has had.

    Average times are no good when the times vary so much, only max is important and the max can get worse on very congested days. The main factor is still congestion and lack of complete bus infrastructure. And what happens when traffic picks up again? What happens when it gets worse? We don't have to have the same kind of growth rates, just more people and over time that will happen.

    mgmt wrote: »
    You also have to take into account that this is only 7 stops between O'Connell street and Ballymun. While Dublin Bus offers stops every 200m or so. So, how much extra walking time would you need to add to your journey to get to a Metro North stop over Dublin Bus?

    Buses will still play a role. Look at Luas, reliability and frequency allows people the confidence to walk further or cycle even further to stops. The same will apply to Metro North, its speed and extra reliability should add to this.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,221 BrianD


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    How is MN an 'oddity'? :confused:

    It's an oddity because of the zeal of some people to build a line that can serve so few at so much cost.
    'A surface tram route could serve as far as Ballymun'. From Swords or from the city centre?
    Well there's food for thought there. However, I was thinking from city centre to Ballymun as continuation of the Green line. On street and the old Broadstone alignment.

    Monument - I disagree, some of the alternatives that I have suggested offer great utility at the right price. Certainly, when compared with building and operating a line that will never reach it's potential.

    With respect, I suggest you survey the route, buy an OS map and get the last CSO data and predictions. The passengers ain't there nor will they ever be. Not only that the strategies that both the RPA and relevant authorities are bizarre. Imagine levying future development along the line when the one thing it actually needs is those developments to provide passengers to sustain the service.

    When the population densities along the MN corridor show any sign of reaching those of, say, Barcelona then start building. In the mean time, let's not waste our money.

    Bus still provides the most efficient and cost effective mode of public transport of serving the MN corridor and will remain so for a long time to come. Both the routing and the corridors can be improved.

    But hey, if we want to waste our money on MN why not tunnel to every part of the city.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 13,991 Mod ✭✭✭✭ monument


    Again what cost are you talking about?

    How do you get from Broadstone to Ballymun?

    You have yet to address some of the points I have made, so your suggestions in your last post look to be unrealistic.

    Again, what on earth do you mean by never? Can we have some forward planning or does ever route have to be overcrowed within a few years

    Barcelona? Have you seen the Barcelona metro network? Nothing like metro north.

    Buses? As with trams please explain how you'll build improved QBCs or BRT routes. Please do, it's the point of this thread. The detail. Not just saying something can be done when there's no room on the ground.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,361 mgmt


    monument wrote: »
    Again, what on earth do you mean by never? Can we have some forward planning or does ever route have to be overcrowed within a few years


    Buses? As with trams please explain how you'll build improved QBCs or BRT routes. Please do, it's the point of this thread. The detail. Not just saying something can be done when there's no room on the ground.

    Here is the passenger numbers as predicted by the Metro North CBA.
    metronorth.jpg

    http://www.rpa.ie/Documents/Metro%20North/Metro%20North%20Redacted%20Business%20Case/MNDBC_FinalRDCTClean.pdf

    This is crazy stupid. These passenger numbers don't warrant a metro. And subtract 666 from that figure due to the 1st two stops being cut in the Bord Planala.

    As I pointed out, there is already a more than adequate bus service to Swords and Dublin Airport atm to service these people.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 13,991 Mod ✭✭✭✭ monument


    mgmt wrote: »
    This is crazy stupid. These passenger numbers don't warrant a metro. And subtract 666 from that figure due to the 1st two stops being cut in the Bord Planala.

    What do you mean the numbers don't "warrant a metro" -- the terms 'metro' covers a wide range of different systems. Are you trying to say we should not have segregation full stop?

    Anyway, as per one of the other threads, to quote dynamick:
    dynamick wrote: »
    ...Also you are only considering 1 direction (inbound). If you look at both directions and measure total number of people using the line in an hour then you find that there are 8,542 passengers per am peak hour of which 933 would have used the last two stops. This is a loss of 11% of passengers if carried on through the day. Of course it doesn't carry through the day because these stops are meant for commuter p&r whereas stops at the hospital, city centre and airport generate trips more evenly throughout the day.

    Anyhow, the moderate growth scenario predicts 36m pax so a loss of 11% implies 32m pax which is still viable.


    The numbers from the cut P&R stations above Swords amount to very few passengers overall and across the day. Anyway, as we've seen from Luas, the RPA have a history of underestimating demand. There's also the a good likelihood that some of the passengers who would have used the axed stations will use the new one.
    mgmt wrote: »
    As I pointed out, there is already a more than adequate bus service to Swords and Dublin Airport atm to service these people.

    Metro North last time I looked does not only serve Swords and Dublin Airport. And what does "more than adequate" mean in the context of improving public transport and its usage?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 185 ✭✭ oharach


    monument wrote: »
    What do you mean the numbers don't "warrant a metro" -- the terms 'metro' covers a wide range of different systems. Are you trying to say we should not have segregation full stop?

    Exactly, I think everyone needs to understand we are building a Stadtbahn and not an U-Bahn. Comparisons with Cologne, Frankfurt*, and Stuttgart are appropriate. Comparisons with Berlin, Munich, Paris or London are not.

    I don't think anyone is deliberately misinterpreting the project, but it is very difficult to hear metro without associating it with a heavy-rail system for high-density cities. Metro North is more akin to Luas-Underground North.


    *Incidentally, before anyone latches onto the fact that Frankfurt is fairly high-density, they regret not building a proper U-Bahn.


  • Registered Users Posts: 426 ✭✭ Jack Noble


    oharach wrote: »
    Exactly, I think everyone needs to understand we are building a Stadtbahn and not an U-Bahn. Comparisons with Cologne, Frankfurt*, and Stuttgart are appropriate. Comparisons with Berlin, Munich, Paris or London are not.

    I don't think anyone is deliberately misinterpreting the project, but it is very difficult to hear metro without associating it with a heavy-rail system for high-density cities. Metro North is more akin to Luas-Underground North.


    *Incidentally, before anyone latches onto the fact that Frankfurt is fairly high-density, they regret not building a proper U-Bahn.

    That is exactly what I have been trying to explain to some people.

    Metro/Luas is more like the Stuttgart Stadtbahn or the Porto Metro in Portugal. It is going underground simply becuase there is nowhere to put it overground that can provide a segretated line.

    Dart is more like the S-Bahn suburban train network in German cities.

    And Dublin already has a 'metro' line in the Berlin/Paris/Munich/London sense of the word - it is called Dart.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭ Aard


    It's a myth that Dublin is low-density. Dublin City has a density of ~4,500/km2, and Dublin Urban Area (basically anywhere that actually "touches" the main city -- including Blanchardstown, Tallaght, Lucan, but not Bray or Swords) is ~3,500.

    In comparison, Amsterdam "City" is 3,500. Greater London isn't particularly higher at 4,800. Helsinki is quite comparable with Dublin in many aspects, but despite that it only has a city density of 2,700, and an urban density of 1,300. Yet, they continue expanding what is now only a single-line metro.

    Also, in terms of maintenance, this would seem to promote metro over Luas: "The Metro is by far the cheapest form of transport in Helsinki to operate, with a cost of only €0.032 per passenger kilometre. The same figure for the second cheapest form - trams - was €0.211." (From Wikipedia.)

    The density is there in Dublin. I imagine if you asked any inhabitants of the above cities now whether they would like to substitute trams for their metro networks, they would laugh.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,361 mgmt


    Aard wrote: »
    It's a myth that Dublin is low-density. Dublin City has a density of ~4,500/km2, and Dublin Urban Area (basically anywhere that actually "touches" the main city -- including Blanchardstown, Tallaght, Lucan, but not Bray or Swords) is ~3,500.

    In comparison, Amsterdam "City" is 3,500. Greater London isn't particularly higher at 4,800. Helsinki is quite comparable with Dublin in many aspects, but despite that it only has a city density of 2,700, and an urban density of 1,300. Yet, they continue expanding what is now only a single-line metro.

    Also, in terms of maintenance, this would seem to promote metro over Luas: "The Metro is by far the cheapest form of transport in Helsinki to operate, with a cost of only €0.032 per passenger kilometre. The same figure for the second cheapest form - trams - was €0.211." (From Wikipedia.)

    The density is there in Dublin. I imagine if you asked any inhabitants of the above cities now whether they would like to substitute trams for their metro networks, they would laugh.

    I don't know where you get your figures from, the RPA gives a density figure of 1,300people/km2 for Dublin.

    http://www.rpa.ie/Documents/Metro%20North/Metro%20North%20RO%20Oral%20Hearing%20Evidence/MN%20RO%20Oral%20Hearing%20Evidence%2001042009/MN%20Oral%20Hearing%20Presentation%20Transport%20Model%20Dave%20King%20030409.pdf


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,361 mgmt


    monument wrote: »
    Metro North last time I looked does not only serve Swords and Dublin Airport. And what does "more than adequate" mean in the context of improving public transport and its usage?

    Yes, but more than 2/3 of the passenger numbers on the Metro North come from the Swords and Dublin Airport stops. Why spend 2-3billion on a transport system when these ares are already served well atm?


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